user92626
G.O.A.T.
Just post technical instructions / tips. Your'e beating around the bush too much. I'm too practical for this.
The Tennis Serve - What's True?
- Thread starter Chas Tennis
- Start date
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Just found this earlier 2025 video by Dr Kovacs spelling out and correcting the misunderstanding about the biomechanics of Pronation vs Internal Shoulder Rotation on the tennis serve.
The Pronation comments start at 6:50. Suggest putting on the Youtube captions.
.
Biomechanics of the Tennis Serve
Meanwhile in 2006
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Meanwhile in 2000
The "missing link" refers to the failure of the Kinetic Chain Concept to discover Internal Shoulder Rotation on the tennis serve.
Meanwhile in 1985
David Waddell and Barbara Gowitzke
The Badminton researchers correctly identified Internal Shoulder Rotation during the tennis serve 40 years ago!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
WHOOPS! Let's fix it and move on to interesting things.
The Pronation comments start at 6:50. Suggest putting on the Youtube captions.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Biomechanics of the Tennis Serve
Meanwhile in 2006
Biomechanics and tennis - PMC
Success in tennis requires a mix of player talent, good coaching, appropriate equipment, and an understanding of those aspects of sport science pertinent to the game. This paper outlines the role that biomechanics plays in player development from ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Meanwhile in 2000
The "missing link" refers to the failure of the Kinetic Chain Concept to discover Internal Shoulder Rotation on the tennis serve.
Meanwhile in 1985
"7. .........A recognition of what is truly happening anatomically (found in only a few references) is that the forearm is turning and, equally important, the upper arm is turning. The biomechanical terms for these actions in forehand strokes are pronation in the radio-ulnar joints and medial rotation in the shoulder joint. ................)"
David Waddell and Barbara Gowitzke
The Badminton researchers correctly identified Internal Shoulder Rotation during the tennis serve 40 years ago!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
WHOOPS! Let's fix it and move on to interesting things.
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Yes, I've read your take on this before. The problem is that the upper and lower arms are both wound up and unwound or loaded and unloaded in the serve. I think that's why some videos are now using long axis rotation instead of ISR. It's necessary to have both segments work together.
I think I missed your point about the attached videos of your post 583. The way you post leaves a lot open to interpretation. In this case I thought you were responding to what I wrote, but I now think you were just reiterating the intent of the post I responded to in the first place.
Oh well. C'est la vie!
That video's illustration of pronation is goofy. It doesn't even match what he himself does in the serve motion just previous and isn't an accurate reflection of how the serve works.
He gives what I would say is a more balanced explanation on a podcast that I saw but don't know the name of as I rarely watch it. I'll see if I can find the video.
10sbeast888
Legend
Do the drill and report back.Just post technical instructions / tips. Your'e beating around the bush too much. I'm too practical for this.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Drill is completed. There's no oil but we might get semi clean water
10sbeast888
Legend
do you think there is any similarity between you and the ballguy?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's a question for you actually. You and your secretive tips.
Good thing is I never need anything from you guys. LOL
10sbeast888
Legend
are you blind? how much content have I already put out.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
haha... in the time you post this shytty stuff, you could have copied and pasted actionable instructionals, like I asked in my post 601.
But no, more shytty nonsensical posts to increase post counts.
Clownish.10sbeast888
Legend
haha... in the time you post this shytty stuff, you could have copied and pasted actionable instructionals, like I asked in my post 601.
But no, more shytty nonsensical posts to increase post counts.
you never take action... I gave you so many drills for practice in the parking lot.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
My Android phone answers with Google AI Overview when I asked -
"Explain Pronation and the tennis serve"
AI is aware of a great deal of information, including the amount of usage. But AI can't tell what's true and what's false.
I am concerned that when AI collects information about "Pronation and the tennis serve" it will create new false information. Exponentially?
"Explain Pronation and the tennis serve"
AI is aware of a great deal of information, including the amount of usage. But AI can't tell what's true and what's false.
I am concerned that when AI collects information about "Pronation and the tennis serve" it will create new false information. Exponentially?
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
By eye, you can see a Waiter's Tray Serve of your opponent, the racket face - at one point - will face the sky!
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
If you have a Waiter's Tray Serve, you will never ever be able to hit a kick serve.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Bounces of some of the best ATP level kick & slice serves.
Any frames in this video may be displayed for comparisons in this post. Cheung's kick or slice serves. Bryans' kick or slice serves. Camera is hand held and misses Bryan's racket impacts, but bounce might show serve type. [ Kick bounce to right for rightie server, to left for leftie.]
First view the video full screen and study Cheung's kick & slice serves and bounces. Then go out of full screen to compare selected frames, two at a time.
To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen, use the period & comma keys.
To select a Youtube video so that it does not start playing
Place cursor on the video, do not click
hold down the ctrl & alt keys and click mouse pad lower right corner
Compare some of these bounces. Ryan Cheung is a leftie. Look at his body angles and Thoracic Extension.
(Note-There is a forum limit of 5 videos total per post.)
See Cheung's kick serve at 8:12 (plays the first playback when started).
Any frames in this video may be displayed for comparisons in this post. Cheung's kick or slice serves. Bryans' kick or slice serves. Camera is hand held and misses Bryan's racket impacts, but bounce might show serve type. [ Kick bounce to right for rightie server, to left for leftie.]
First view the video full screen and study Cheung's kick & slice serves and bounces. Then go out of full screen to compare selected frames, two at a time.
To select a Youtube video so that it does not start playing
Place cursor on the video, do not click
hold down the ctrl & alt keys and click mouse pad lower right corner
Compare some of these bounces. Ryan Cheung is a leftie. Look at his body angles and Thoracic Extension.
(Note-There is a forum limit of 5 videos total per post.)
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enishi1357
Semi-Pro
LOL how do you know they have mental problems
One used to be an addict. Another has schizo. They are always talking.
Another has major hang up on his divorce even though he had girlfriends on the side.
Another believe in conspiracy theory like new world order controlling everything on earth and used to believe in Trump.
Alot of unhappy married people even though one doesn't admit it.
I think the group I'm is the most welcoming because it has all the people other group don't want lol. They all had gripes about getting kick out of another elderly group which say alot about them. I don't really care who I play with as I just need to experiment my strokes in a match.
But recently even some of them rip on my inconsistency. I mean I would have felt bad playing bad in a normal group but with them it's like I don't really care because I won't ever get kick out for playing bad.
There's advantage to be in an unusual group. I like to think of myself as unusual in playing an unusual style.
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GrandSlammer
Hall of Fame
Well, that is certainly an unusual post!
enishi1357
Semi-Pro
TMI haha.
Well I made headway on serve. This happened last night when not many show up and the few who showed up did not play tennis so I used the rest of the night to practice serving.
I guess I'm unusual in just trying to improve even if it means practice serving by myself. Meanwhile everyone else had all these drama while I have drama too it is always second to tennis. Why can't we just play tennis?
user92626
G.O.A.T.
What's the nature of your headway on serve? Something clicked? A eureka moment?
10sbeast888
Legend
hey wth have you been - did you do the drill?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
There is the Waiter's Tray Serve used by the majority of active tennis players and the high level serve with Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) used by the ATP & WTA? and some other hardly known DIY techniques. What other technique is there?
One of the other techniques that I found while analyzing forum serves was a serve that used ISR for significant racket head speed but was not an ATP technique or a Waiter's Tray, although sometimes the racket face faced the sky (a test for likely Waiter's Tray). It was difficult to identify what was going on and took me a year. ? I finally used a display method where the video was played Forth & Back, Forth & Back..... It seemed to help noticing serve positions and also remembering what you had seen (from the many repetitions?) You could also shift from one sub-motion to the next.
Here is a side-by-side Kinovea comparison of a forum poster and an ATP server, with millisecond count down timer to impact and another to show time after impact. The comparison was not ideal - flat to slice serve, different camera angles, and other things that could be selected for more accurate future comparisons. The single frame advance skips sometime but we can count on the millisecond timers. Time 0 is closest to impacts. Example, - 4 is 4 milliseconds before impact. +5 is 5 milliseconds after impact. If you put a millisecond time line on a serve video all sub-motions could easily be timed.
Kinovea video analysis to created this comparison. (Kinovea is a free, open source video analysis app that has many capabilities.)
You need these instructions when looking at the video -
Forth & Back - start video and stop it_ drag white time indicator Forth & Back, Forth & Back....... Vary the speed, and the range of frames viewed. This is not so tough, you can do it!
After you get the hang of Forth & Back, go full screen. Observe and look for differences between the two serves. Observe each sub-motion separately. For, example, toss release followed by tossing hand & arm inversion as mentioned by Gavin MacMillan..
OR_ best for 1 & 2 below _ to single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.
1) Find the orange lines at impacts that show the long axis of the upper arm. What differences can you notice about those lines for each server (not perfect)?
2) Examine the racket faces going up to impact. What differences can you notice there for each server ?
Careful now, you are analyzing the heart of the tennis serve, its fastest motions and a second unknown technique that is so difficult that some tennis experts could not observe it without these secret instructions?
Have you observed any differences after half an hour?
I can answer a few questions, but all you need to do is observe differences - in a few frames of video.
I'll post some analysis of the serves later.
One of the other techniques that I found while analyzing forum serves was a serve that used ISR for significant racket head speed but was not an ATP technique or a Waiter's Tray, although sometimes the racket face faced the sky (a test for likely Waiter's Tray). It was difficult to identify what was going on and took me a year. ? I finally used a display method where the video was played Forth & Back, Forth & Back..... It seemed to help noticing serve positions and also remembering what you had seen (from the many repetitions?) You could also shift from one sub-motion to the next.
Here is a side-by-side Kinovea comparison of a forum poster and an ATP server, with millisecond count down timer to impact and another to show time after impact. The comparison was not ideal - flat to slice serve, different camera angles, and other things that could be selected for more accurate future comparisons. The single frame advance skips sometime but we can count on the millisecond timers. Time 0 is closest to impacts. Example, - 4 is 4 milliseconds before impact. +5 is 5 milliseconds after impact. If you put a millisecond time line on a serve video all sub-motions could easily be timed.
Kinovea video analysis to created this comparison. (Kinovea is a free, open source video analysis app that has many capabilities.)
Forth & Back - start video and stop it_ drag white time indicator Forth & Back, Forth & Back....... Vary the speed, and the range of frames viewed. This is not so tough, you can do it!
After you get the hang of Forth & Back, go full screen. Observe and look for differences between the two serves. Observe each sub-motion separately. For, example, toss release followed by tossing hand & arm inversion as mentioned by Gavin MacMillan..
OR_ best for 1 & 2 below _ to single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.
1) Find the orange lines at impacts that show the long axis of the upper arm. What differences can you notice about those lines for each server (not perfect)?
2) Examine the racket faces going up to impact. What differences can you notice there for each server ?
Careful now, you are analyzing the heart of the tennis serve, its fastest motions and a second unknown technique that is so difficult that some tennis experts could not observe it without these secret instructions?
Have you observed any differences after half an hour?
I can answer a few questions, but all you need to do is observe differences - in a few frames of video.
I'll post some analysis of the serves later.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Thanks for posting the podcast. It was posted to Youtube "3 weeks ago".
You disagreed on some of what he was saying. I do also.
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enishi1357
Semi-Pro
I guess it's kind of a eureka moment. Last night I wasn't trying anything new. Just trying to get some consistency with good placement. Wasn't consistent in the beginning so I thought I wasn't doing something. Tried something new but that made the serve worse so that means I must be not doing something that is not new. In other words I'm not doing something I used to do before.
This is where the eureka moment happened. You see for awhile now I have been trying to connect this technique (lets call this tomato) to a certain base (not sure if that's a correct term). A while ago I kinda figured out the foundation of where most techniques derived from. A metaphor would be tomato is a vegetable while another thing is fruit. Well I also have another technique (lets call this lettuce). That's when it dawned on me that this technique is connected to another technique because they are both from the same base (like tomato and lettuce are both vegetable).
You might think this is not important. But it actually is very important. Now that I know the techniques are connected I know one can effect the other. Meaning I can execute one technique while auto execute the other.
Most importantly knowing the connection allows me to dig deeper confidently. Today I improved on my latter technique even further. Match Testing is still needed but I feel my serving form is much more consistent.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Related to this post, Systemic Anomaly posted this gif of Vic Braden hitting a serve. It is very similar to the unknown serve of Post #621.
In my opinion, this technique has strong Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) for racket head speed (see elbow shadows to indicate ISR), and the arm has a similar angle up, and the racket face has a similar angle to the unknown serve in Post #621.. @Kevo
More on this later. Please do the Forth & Back analysis of Post #621.
UPDATE 1/2/2025 - Just learned that Vic Braden advocated a serve called a "Side Arm Serve". It sounds like the unknown serve of my above discussion.
To me the angle of the long axis of the upper arm (humerus) looks low, too much to the right and also the left tilt of the racket shaft at impact appears almost vertical and does not look like an ATP serve from this camera angle. This looks like a different technique than the ATP high level serve and I have seen it before.
Compare Bradon's serve to an ATP slice serve for the long axis indicated by an orange lines at the Humerus and the left racket shaft tilt at impact.
(The old Thread with this GIF had an Ad link in the OP that I do not trust. )
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Reference Thread, some of the comments may not be what I would say now, but there is information on how things appear in videos from various camera view points.
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GrandSlammer
Hall of Fame
From a different thread.
So what happens with those servers who don't jump or can't jump? For instance, before the rule change allowing both feet to come off the ground, some players were still delivering absolute bombs. Here is some "decent" footage of Stan Smith hitting serves from multiple angles:
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
If you look at Smith's shoulder - in the era when one foot had to remain on the ground - it rises as his legs straighten - it accelerates up. Maybe that had a similar but reduced effect as the jump off the ground with 2 feet and helped the ESR.?
Search Gerald Paterson, he shows a high level serve with ISR in 1919. He was know as the "Human Catapult". He had 1 foot on the ground.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The busiest time of the most complex Tennis Stroke - the Serve.
This old thread - Leg Drive Myth? - has interesting discussions closely related to the time of the Sampras sub-motion discussed in this thread. (Will give the posts including the Nadal shirtless video also displays this. It was poorly named Cartwheel (which is completely misleading) or Shoulder-Over-Shoulder but from some camera angles it appears as a chest rotation - is it a spinal sub-motion that accompanies Thoracic Extension and Flexion?
Historic link - Laver shows the same motion while keeping one foot on the ground to follow the old rules before about 1961 or 1962. The line behind Laver shows his elevation vs time and you see his forward motion. Thank you, @IowaGuy
Of course, multi-camera computerized Motion Capture Systems (MCS) might show this spinal position vs time in their observations. The work of Brian Gordon is mentioned and he has a MCS.
I have looked at a great many serve videos, but those Sampras camera angles, and then others, changed my understanding of what 'Shoulder-Over-Shoulder' actually was in 3D. Of course, the early tennis term 'Cartwheel' is completely misleading and misled me for many years.
Another good camera angle - see the first few serves. Observe how the motion is directed and the tilt angle of the axis of rotation from Thoracic Extension plays a part.
To single frame on Youtube, use the period & comma keys.
This old thread - Leg Drive Myth? - has interesting discussions closely related to the time of the Sampras sub-motion discussed in this thread. (Will give the posts including the Nadal shirtless video also displays this. It was poorly named Cartwheel (which is completely misleading) or Shoulder-Over-Shoulder but from some camera angles it appears as a chest rotation - is it a spinal sub-motion that accompanies Thoracic Extension and Flexion?
Historic link - Laver shows the same motion while keeping one foot on the ground to follow the old rules before about 1961 or 1962. The line behind Laver shows his elevation vs time and you see his forward motion. Thank you, @IowaGuy
There are many interesting posts in this 2018 thread - but a key to this observation is having the right camera angle. Looking along the line of the upper spine during a certain angle of Thoracic Extension shows the spinal and/or shoulder girdle rotation and how it is directed.
Of course, multi-camera computerized Motion Capture Systems (MCS) might show this spinal position vs time in their observations. The work of Brian Gordon is mentioned and he has a MCS.
I have looked at a great many serve videos, but those Sampras camera angles, and then others, changed my understanding of what 'Shoulder-Over-Shoulder' actually was in 3D. Of course, the early tennis term 'Cartwheel' is completely misleading and misled me for many years.
Another good camera angle - see the first few serves. Observe how the motion is directed and the tilt angle of the axis of rotation from Thoracic Extension plays a part.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
See post #628.
I don't agree with this instructional video. It does not account for the brief but significant tilt of Thoracic Extension during this time of the serve.
Best to narrate a video of an ATP serve. Best to always have more than one camera viewing angle to see more of the 3D. I missed this for many years. See my thread Thoracic Extension and the Spine and Tennis Serve.
Great topic, please make an updated video.
Note - The full story probably involves the Spinal Engine Theory and the serve as advocated by Gavin MacMillan, currently the best known serving expert at the highest level. Other?
I don't agree with this instructional video. It does not account for the brief but significant tilt of Thoracic Extension during this time of the serve.
Best to narrate a video of an ATP serve. Best to always have more than one camera viewing angle to see more of the 3D. I missed this for many years. See my thread Thoracic Extension and the Spine and Tennis Serve.
Great topic, please make an updated video.
Note - The full story probably involves the Spinal Engine Theory and the serve as advocated by Gavin MacMillan, currently the best known serving expert at the highest level. Other?
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Thoracic extension is a phrase that never need be uttered to a person learning to serve. If you are a coach teaching someone to serve and you think you need to mention thoracic extension, then you have lost the plot.
Carry on.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I am not teaching tennis. Before teaching, there is a problem in that nothing is well enough understood - no tennis stroke. Evidence would be that Gavin MacMillan is finding flaws in the top level WTA ladies for the high level serve. So to understand one technique more thoroughly seems important. Thoracic Extension is very significant for the ATP serve as videos show. See thread, Thoracic Extension and the Spine and Tennis Serve.Thoracic extension is a phrase that never need be uttered to a person learning to serve. If you are a coach teaching someone to serve and you think you need to mention thoracic extension, then you have lost the plot.
Carry on.
We should understand and never forget that Internal Shoulder Rotation was not understood by the highest biomechanical levels in tennis until 1995 and even now only a very small percentage of active tennis players understand.
What technique do you teach?
Well, maybe consider *not* critiquing instructional videos then.
Please reread that second sentence above and see if it makes sense. Consider its implications in the real world if it were to be adopted operationally. Let me know if it actually says what you meant to say.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
What is the value of True vs False?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
From high camera views or overhead camera views, a sub-motion of the serve looks different than the ground level camera view. The serve sub-motion has been called for years the Cartwheel or Shoulder-Over-Shoulder (very misleading terms).This observation was discussed earlier in this thread in the Sampras post below. That was the first time that I noticed this new interpretation.
Sampras Observation of Shoulder-Over-Shoulder - it's a spinal rotation that appears as the chest rotating and during Thoracic Extension. See the video at 3:05.
The familiar gymnastics exercise of a "Cartwheel" was used as a term to describe the motion of the shoulders during the high level tennis serve.
Here is a slow, simple Cartwheel.
If you heard "Cartwheel" to get some description of what the shoulders do during a tennis serve, as I did, and you did not see the Shoulder-Over-Shoulder video from one of these high camera angles, what would you think? The word Cartwheel would badly mislead you, as it misled me. Shoulder-Over-Shoulder might also mislead you but the video shows the sub-motion. Do't rely on "Hit Up & Out" to somehow get a picture from another poor selection of words. If someone says "Kinetic Chain explains it all" - don' believe them.
Look at the tennis serve at more than one camera angle to better observe the 3D aspects of the serve. Words attached when the sub-motion is first noticed are very often badly misleading. Using the term Pronation when Internat Shoulder Rotation (ISR) is the most significant joint motion of the tennis serve is even worse, since both Pronation and ISR are are properly defined joint motions. The idea is to get rid of ignorance.
Believing one small series of words about a tennis stroke sub-motion - that are false - is all it takes to stop the show. And practicing won't help.
Sampras Observation of Shoulder-Over-Shoulder - it's a spinal rotation that appears as the chest rotating and during Thoracic Extension. See the video at 3:05.
The familiar gymnastics exercise of a "Cartwheel" was used as a term to describe the motion of the shoulders during the high level tennis serve.
Here is a slow, simple Cartwheel.
If you heard "Cartwheel" to get some description of what the shoulders do during a tennis serve, as I did, and you did not see the Shoulder-Over-Shoulder video from one of these high camera angles, what would you think? The word Cartwheel would badly mislead you, as it misled me. Shoulder-Over-Shoulder might also mislead you but the video shows the sub-motion. Do't rely on "Hit Up & Out" to somehow get a picture from another poor selection of words. If someone says "Kinetic Chain explains it all" - don' believe them.
Look at the tennis serve at more than one camera angle to better observe the 3D aspects of the serve. Words attached when the sub-motion is first noticed are very often badly misleading. Using the term Pronation when Internat Shoulder Rotation (ISR) is the most significant joint motion of the tennis serve is even worse, since both Pronation and ISR are are properly defined joint motions. The idea is to get rid of ignorance.
Believing one small series of words about a tennis stroke sub-motion - that are false - is all it takes to stop the show. And practicing won't help.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Waiter's Tray - Racket Face Closes Mostly as It Moves Forward
VS
High Level Serve with ISR - Racket Face Mostly Turns as It Moves Forward
Also true for the Overheads Using Waiter Tray Closing VS High Level Turning with ISR.
Above is a fact, that alone accounts for why the high level serve has more pace and consistency than the Waiter's Tray.
Simply said, high closing speed leads to less consistency in Projection Angle at impact, than high turning speeds of ISR. Projection Angle is defined in biomechanics, it relates to high-low errors in serving.
ISR - Internal Shoulder Rotation (Medial Shoulder Rotation in some English speaking countries)
Does anyone understand this? It's important.
VS
High Level Serve with ISR - Racket Face Mostly Turns as It Moves Forward
Also true for the Overheads Using Waiter Tray Closing VS High Level Turning with ISR.
Above is a fact, that alone accounts for why the high level serve has more pace and consistency than the Waiter's Tray.
Simply said, high closing speed leads to less consistency in Projection Angle at impact, than high turning speeds of ISR. Projection Angle is defined in biomechanics, it relates to high-low errors in serving.
ISR - Internal Shoulder Rotation (Medial Shoulder Rotation in some English speaking countries)
Does anyone understand this? It's important.
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GrandSlammer
Hall of Fame
Yes, you've told me something similar before when I mentioned I very occasionally spray wide by 3 or 4 feet when going down the T.
enishi1357
Semi-Pro
Last night I was serving fine in the beginning but was really bad in the last set. I realized it's not that I did something wrong but it's something that I didn't do.
I was hungry and tire so I subconsciously slowed down my serve to get the ball in. But that had the opposite effect as the slower I serve the less power i put into my serve.
So I sped up my serve back to my original speed not caring if speeding up will make my serve worse. Lo and behold my serve was back to how my serve was in the beginning.
I have a problem where I tend to overthink my serve mechanic when after I tried everything the solution most likely is the simpler solution which tends to be something that is very basic.
The lesson here is be creative up to a certain point. When nothing works that usually means the answer is something real basic.
I was hungry and tire so I subconsciously slowed down my serve to get the ball in. But that had the opposite effect as the slower I serve the less power i put into my serve.
So I sped up my serve back to my original speed not caring if speeding up will make my serve worse. Lo and behold my serve was back to how my serve was in the beginning.
I have a problem where I tend to overthink my serve mechanic when after I tried everything the solution most likely is the simpler solution which tends to be something that is very basic.
The lesson here is be creative up to a certain point. When nothing works that usually means the answer is something real basic.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Post #635 discusses both the racket face closing and turning as it moves forward to impact.
An overhead camera can view the serve - especially at impact - and show the racket face closing and turning from Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) as it moves forward. There are other details to be seen from an above camera view. The point of the stroke is impact.
When analyzing high speed videos, always observe the smallest available details.
.
An overhead camera can view the serve - especially at impact - and show the racket face closing and turning from Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) as it moves forward. There are other details to be seen from an above camera view. The point of the stroke is impact.
When analyzing high speed videos, always observe the smallest available details.
.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Fault Tolerant Tennis digs into many tennis stroke techniques and has a lot of detailed analyses.
For the serve, he discusses many of the more difficult sub-motions and their orientations.
I hope that his future analyses can include ATP servers and high speed videos.
For the serve, he discusses many of the more difficult sub-motions and their orientations.
I hope that his future analyses can include ATP servers and high speed videos.
ballmachineguy
Legend
@10sbeast888
Ask your buddies at FTT why the guy is swinging the sock where it swings over his head from front to back instead of from back to front? You know, like a real serve.
10sbeast888
Legend
a real serve IS front to back.
ballmachineguy
Legend
This is the moment of striking the ball. It’s not a position anyone gets into. Racket hand should be passing over the head and forearm should be pronating (arm too bent for ISR).
I believe this is why the sock drill is done in a figure 8.
10sbeast888
Legend
well you have to give the sock some momentum, but the point of the drill is the HORIZONTAL nature of the serve, even though it looks like low to high on TV.... this is similar to Coach J's cue of swinging to the right.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
'The Big Game' - Serve & Volley Tennis
Here is Pete Sampras serving and volleying. The 1st serve included a very fast first step motion into the court. In the 1970s, when my interest in tennis started, The Big Game was being used. I recall seeing young Pete Sampras win his first Major, the US Open in 1990 by coming into the net? %? Serve & Volley came about some years after a rule in tennis - that one foot had to stay on the ground during the serve - was ended for tennis about 1962. Ending that foot rule led to higher impacts and more effective serving techniques.
Serve and volley tennis.
Click to view on Youtube. To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.
Improved ground strokes and rackets made serve & volley tennis less effective.
Watch on Youtube for single frame and recommend using the captions.
Sampras's vs Agassi.
Here is Pete Sampras serving and volleying. The 1st serve included a very fast first step motion into the court. In the 1970s, when my interest in tennis started, The Big Game was being used. I recall seeing young Pete Sampras win his first Major, the US Open in 1990 by coming into the net? %? Serve & Volley came about some years after a rule in tennis - that one foot had to stay on the ground during the serve - was ended for tennis about 1962. Ending that foot rule led to higher impacts and more effective serving techniques.
Serve and volley tennis.
Improved ground strokes and rackets made serve & volley tennis less effective.
Sampras's vs Agassi.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Spinal Engine Source of Information
Very interesting interview with Ben Baggett of Connected Performance.
I have been very interested in videos of shirtless servers that might show Spinal Engine bends and Baggett understands Spinal Engine and has taken videos of shirtless baseball pitchers.
Very interesting interview with Ben Baggett of Connected Performance.
I have been very interested in videos of shirtless servers that might show Spinal Engine bends and Baggett understands Spinal Engine and has taken videos of shirtless baseball pitchers.
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@10sbeast888 Hey tennis breast, I watched an old serve lesson by Charlie Passarel. He said that toes should be aligned in a line towards the target, and demonstrated with a racket on the ground. On the deuce side for a rightie, this totally contradicted the modern advice of orienting towards the net post irrespective of the court side. Has tennis coaching changed in this regard?
10sbeast888
Legend
draw lines from the center mark to the middle of the 2 serve boxes, the 2 lines form an angle of what, 30 degrees? doesn't make sense to face the net post for both the duece and the ad serves.
See how Federer used to position himself for a deuce court serve.
10sbeast888
Legend
this seems to be a trivial thing though... everyones body is different, find the most comfortable position for the type of serve you want to hit? shouldn't take too much trial and error to figure out.
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