A crisis of confidence. What are the chances she could stand on one leg, or freeze her tossing arm, drop it too early, fold it like Tiafoe's, or any other number of bad techniques and still be capable of serving 10/10 serves in at 90 + mph on a practice court? Pretty high I'd say. Whereas in the video it looks like she doesn't think she can make a serve at 70 mph.
The Tennis Serve - What's True?
- Thread starter Chas Tennis
- Start date
optic yellow
Legend
Okay I get what you mean now. I agree it is not easy to apply, thinking that deep, nor probably is it sufficient on its own for someone to learn the stroke.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
A good approach is to always search for the highest level knowledge that exists. Gavin has been openly discussing some of his Spinal Engine and tennis serve knowledge.
When Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) was first understood for the tennis serve around 1995 (Elliott et al), the ITF recognized its importance and published some books on tennis biomechanics. Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis, 2003 and another in 2009 by Bruce Elliott, Crespo & Reid. Unfortunately, the ITF book cost of $275 limited how many tennis players ever saw the book. I waited before buying my copy until the price came down, probably about 10-15 years after publication in 2003. Few active tennis players know what ISR is in 2024. Most tennis serve instructional videos do not show or mention ISR........why is that? It's ignorance.
The USTA and ITF or other tennis organizations might use their considerable tennis resources, once again, to publish what is known about the tennis serve in 2024 now including Spinal Engine Theory.
Both Djokovic and Nadal had significant improvements taught for their serving techniques around 2010 or so. How about the other ATP and WTA players and their serves? Why is a coach telling the #2 WTA tennis player in the world about Spinal Engine and the tennis serve.?
Should what is true in tennis biomechanics take decades to mostly reach a few pro and college players?
The Tennis Serve Nuthouse.........
When Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) was first understood for the tennis serve around 1995 (Elliott et al), the ITF recognized its importance and published some books on tennis biomechanics. Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis, 2003 and another in 2009 by Bruce Elliott, Crespo & Reid. Unfortunately, the ITF book cost of $275 limited how many tennis players ever saw the book. I waited before buying my copy until the price came down, probably about 10-15 years after publication in 2003. Few active tennis players know what ISR is in 2024. Most tennis serve instructional videos do not show or mention ISR........why is that? It's ignorance.
The USTA and ITF or other tennis organizations might use their considerable tennis resources, once again, to publish what is known about the tennis serve in 2024 now including Spinal Engine Theory.
Both Djokovic and Nadal had significant improvements taught for their serving techniques around 2010 or so. How about the other ATP and WTA players and their serves? Why is a coach telling the #2 WTA tennis player in the world about Spinal Engine and the tennis serve.?
Should what is true in tennis biomechanics take decades to mostly reach a few pro and college players?
The Tennis Serve Nuthouse.........
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optic yellow
Legend
The key is to recognize that spinal engine is the orienting base for the action.
Dragy
Legend
Well the whole idea that you will do better if serving slower is counterproductive, definitely not a way for a tour-level player. And not helping mentally.
On the other hand, trying too hard is usually not doing well either.
I'm struggling to understand how the spinal engine is anything different or new than the springs and levers analogy we've had for who knows how long. Any extra spring and/or additional winding you can add is storing energy for whatever motion you are trying to achieve upon release. The more the better as long as you can get it all timed and released constructively rather than destructively.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
No. You need to spend time reading the earlier posts and viewing the videos with captions on to get Gavin's comments.
That has been discussed in previous posts - "springs and levers" and many other things such as Fascia and the Right shoulder connection to left buttock biomechanics.....Spinal Engine is the control and timing center.... Gavin MacMillan's comments in videos are cumbersome and time consuming to find but those comments are the highest level serve information that we have.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Force VS Nerve Signals Speed Through the Body and Spinal Engine
There is a biomechanical consideration that we should keep in mind - How fast forces VS nerve signals might be transferred through the body. The Spinal Engine may use both forces and nerve signals for control. ?
The nerve signals in the body travel relatively slowly at well known speeds. These speeds may be on the order of 10s of milliseconds, depending on nerve length.
I read that bone can transmit forces that the foot has struck the ground up to the brain faster than nerve signals can.
For Spinal Engine where many body parts are connected by muscles, bones and fascia forces may travel faster than nerve signals and be used somehow by Spinal Engine. Needs more information......
There is a biomechanical consideration that we should keep in mind - How fast forces VS nerve signals might be transferred through the body. The Spinal Engine may use both forces and nerve signals for control. ?
The nerve signals in the body travel relatively slowly at well known speeds. These speeds may be on the order of 10s of milliseconds, depending on nerve length.
I read that bone can transmit forces that the foot has struck the ground up to the brain faster than nerve signals can.
For Spinal Engine where many body parts are connected by muscles, bones and fascia forces may travel faster than nerve signals and be used somehow by Spinal Engine. Needs more information......
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Because he didn't?
He discussed the spinal engine on some podcasts and during interviews, but do you really think he was talking to her about that? Maybe he did say that somewhere and I missed it. But for her, he outlined the takeback & where the racquet tip pointed, her really really high ball toss, and her tossing arm (inversion/collapsing etc). Those were the specifics as far as I can gather, so why do you think she was told about the spinal engine?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Gavin indicated what he says and doesn't say to work with the server. I don't recall specifics. But somebody has to known.
Djokovic, Nadal and Sabalenka, while highly ranked, had flaws in their serves corrected that were observed in videos by serve specialists. Even I could see that Sabalenka has a very high toss and that she stopped unusually early from looking at the tossed ball. Well know serve flaws that she could observe.
Gerald Paterson was videoed doing the serve with powerful ISR in 1919. 105 years later, things are not what they should be with knowledge and communication of the tennis serve.
My point was not that Gavin told her or not - someone has to know what is going on.
In the case of Spinal Engine, I don't know what it would look like in a tennis serve. I assume most ATP servers are doing effective Spinal Engine.
Posted a video on running that showed leg positions and other features of Spinal Engine Theory that were selected for more effective Spinal Engine running. Third video in post #330.
When we walk, we lift one side of the pelvis so that one leg supports and the other leg can be swung forward. That is part of Spinal Engine applied to walking. What are the extreme motions of Spinal Engine for the tennis serve and those video frames useful as checkpoints?
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Well, the thing is this thread is titled "what's true...." and I know you are hot on that concept with all the misinformation floating around. You wrote:
Followed by:
I know this is a new exciting concept for you and that's good! But that also means you need to be even more careful about making unverified claims (that imo are very likely untrue). I will leave it at that.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I'll be more careful and have corrected my post.
Thanks for reading that one carefully.
Gavin, at various times in his videos, talks about his time as a young tennis player and his difficulty with the serve. I hope that you and some others can find and read one or more of those comments. He understood some athletic motions such as baseball pitching, but his tennis serve did not "feel right".
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
So far this is the only video found about Spinal Engine and the tennis serve.
Please post if you find one.
This is what we need with Spinal Engine Checkpoints with arrows pointing to the body parts of Spinal Engine for the serve.
Please post if you find one.
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I've watched some of Gavin's videos. He also states that coaches were already teaching what he teaches. Anything falls apart if you go detailed enough, but in terms of learning to serve or play tennis I haven't found anything that would make me want to change the mental model of springs and levers or anything to change my teaching cues. I will have to think more about his belief that you have to have the left hand turned a certain way on the serve. I get what he's saying, but I think this might be one of those things that can work differently for different people. When I've experimented with different toss styles and releases it didn't seem to make a difference for me. I can get a good shoulder rotation and elbow tuck either way. I do like palm in for chin ups though so maybe it's just a comfortable position for me. I'll have to pay more attention to that one as I didn't think it was as critical as he makes it out to be, but maybe it is for some people.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
In what video does Gavin mention the coaches. ?
Always good to think about things but
We don't know enough yet about what is out there and already known.
You don't have to think about arm inversion regarding whether it's there, look at ATP servers, as I did. I observed that they are doing arm inversion for about 10 ATP servers. (Nadal probably was not.) If an ATP player does a sub-motion in a specific way and that is observed in high speed videos - we have evidence! Tossing Arm Inversion on the serve is true as a sub-motion!
I pointed out that the location of the lat's insertion on the upper arm (humerus) might play a part. ? Inversion would be done before the arm is brought down if the humerus orientation is important. (Post #277)
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optic yellow
Legend
I told you what it looks like in a tennis serve. It's very strongly connected to the shoulder movement you noticed.
I think for the beginner its most useful to ponder this lovely insight I found in a 2011 article detailing the 8 different stages of the serve:
He mentions being frustrated by his old coaches in the PPT interview (interviewer in italics):
"21:46
When I first tried serving to me it was like a jump serve in volleyball that you toss it up
21:51
you lean back and you went up then I was told down together up together scratch the back
21:57
oh that's stuff oh that nonsense
yeah it's terrible and like now you know you're serving under 100 miles an hour
22:02
you can't kick a serve you're double faulting all the time, your confidence sucks"
"21:14
I think I'm the only channel on YouTube that's ever said they you come up and you turn the hand
you have to turn the hand
I've taught that now how long every single person I
21:20
teach it's here yeah because you have to get it inverted but I wasn't once I saw that it was such a frustrating moment
21:27
because I've been taught so poorly because it's made so much sense because that's how I threw a football [...]".
Is 'turn the hand' the new 'down together, up together'?!
Did you study 10 and see that 9 are doing it? That is a good spot with Rafa.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
QUICK STATS
I do a thing I call quick stats. Because I don't want to spend a lot of time looking at strokes and doing statistics, I look at a small number of ATP players doing a stroke. If I notice the specific sub-motion, like arm inversion, in 10 or so ATP players. I assume that a considerable percent of ATP players are doing that sub-motions. Then I check some more as I go along - that is how I noticed Nadal. I now assume that most ATP servers in 2024 are doing tossing arm inversion. That was entirely new to me and I had never noticed it.
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optic yellow
Legend
What is tossing arm inversion again?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Thanks for doing that, now we all can see what Gavin said.
The quote below is not from Gavin but the interviewer.
"I think I'm the only channel on YouTube that's ever said they you come up and you turn the hand
you have to turn the hand"
@dennis What's that?
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Forum Search the terms in this thread. ("Search" Top right this forum screen.)
See also post #277.
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optic yellow
Legend
Oh right this what I told you happens naturally when the left lat is used to induce the shoulder over shoulder motion.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Relative to Understanding the Tossing Arm Inversion
The lat on the tossing side is involved in bringing down the tossing arm and the Spinal Engine. Details to be determined.
Toward a goal of understanding the lat's part in the Serve for the Tossing Arm Inversion useful videos and references on
1) anatomy,
2) function in Spinal Engine,
3) function in the tennis serve when bringing down the tossing arm
4) self Palpation of the lat and its insertion
5) any others
here are some sources:
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
First attempt to Self Palpation of the Lat Insert.
If I place my hand on my head and activate what I think is my lat, I can feel something tightening in my arm pit. ??
Not certain but believe that - The insertion of the lat is on the front of the upper arm (humerus) when the body is in the Anatomical Position.
Hopefully, someone else can do better in showing us how to self palpation the lat's insertion.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Will add related information to forum limit of 5 videos
The lat on the tossing side is involved in bringing down the tossing arm and the Spinal Engine. Details to be determined.
Toward a goal of understanding the lat's part in the Serve for the Tossing Arm Inversion useful videos and references on
1) anatomy,
2) function in Spinal Engine,
3) function in the tennis serve when bringing down the tossing arm
4) self Palpation of the lat and its insertion
5) any others
here are some sources:
Muscle Palpation - Latissimus Dorsi [ASMR]
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
First attempt to Self Palpation of the Lat Insert.
If I place my hand on my head and activate what I think is my lat, I can feel something tightening in my arm pit. ??
Not certain but believe that - The insertion of the lat is on the front of the upper arm (humerus) when the body is in the Anatomical Position.
Hopefully, someone else can do better in showing us how to self palpation the lat's insertion.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Will add related information to forum limit of 5 videos
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yossarian
Professional
You can’t. It’s too deep. Too much soft tissue overlaying the area
It's from the transcript of the video interview (PPT / performance plus tennis). That is John talking rather than Gavin. They're both big on tossing arm inversion.
Though I'm pretty sure I saw someone else on YT recommending it years ago, maybe Jeff Salzenstein.
And of course, right here on TT, back in 2005: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/inverting-your-ball-toss-hand.35343/
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optic yellow
Legend
Yeah because you do the shoulder turn by yanking down with the lead lat and arm inversion is both a byproduct of and an easy mental cue for that.
It is an interesting technical feature. I do it, I wonder how much of a difference it would make if I stopped myself from doing it.
optic yellow
Legend
Try doing the same motion you normally do but consciously focus on maintaining the arm position instead of allowing it to invert and tell me what happens. I would do myself but my serve is so bad it is not useful information.
I think it was one of the videos linked earlier in this thread where he was being interviewed. He was also talking about pitching in that one IIRC.
I'm not arguing it's there. Of course it's there. Lots of people do it. I am thinking it might be one of those things that is important for some and immaterial for others, but since I've never focused on that specifically I can't say anything with much certainty. I've always focused more on the shoulder over shoulder rotation.
I see Sampras seems to invert at the initiation of the rotation. Probably need to check more videos to see how consistent it is and the timing on different serves.
Ok, I've already found a video of Fed where the hand isn't inverted on the toss. It was like the second one I checked on YT. Maybe the way Gavin was describing it was a little hyperbolic based on his passion for the topic and how bad some coaches are at correcting form or even knowing what form is proper. I'm definitely going to pay attention to this more, but finding some counter examples I'm going to file this under needs a more nuanced explanation. Maybe what's critical is not getting the tossing arm into a blocking position and inversion of the tossing hand is one way to help correct that.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The purpose would be to demo the lat tendon's insertion location as best as can be done for an interested server. Also, that taught tendon points somewhat in the direction of the insertion.
I am sitting on a couch and my left arm is along the top of the couch. Fingers point up. This is to try and isolate the lat tendon whenever the lat contracts. I try to contract just the lat. I put my finger tips across my humerus and under my arm pit to the back where I assume the lat is. I think I feel my lat tendon when I try to contract the lat. It points toward where the lat's insertion might be. I estimate I can feel the lat tendon to about half way across my arm/ humerus.
Have you done palpation in your medical training?
Try it and see how close you get to the insertion by finding and feeling the lat tendon and where it is pointing.
The pec's insertion is next to the lat's insertion. ( Post #277) The Pec Major insertion could be used to locate the Lat's insertion. ? Relax Pec and contract the Lat with finger tips on Lat's insertion location next to Pec's insertion location?
I think that I can now feel (palpation) the Pec's insertion.
Palpation of Pec Major. See 55 seconds and have captions on. The Lat insertion is very near the Pec Insertion. See humerus insertions in Post #277.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
(For the hitting arm, nearly all the forces applied to the humerus, arm and racket for the serve's ISR come through those two insertions,)
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optic yellow
Legend
What value is there is palpating this?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
1) To make a simple demo, if possible, for tennis players interested in how tennis strokes work.
2) Arm Inversion is completely unknown on the forum and feeling a tendon that applies forces to the humerus to bring the arm down, might make for better understanding. Readers, in turn may, raise the level of discussions on the forums.
3) My approach is always to simply collect interesting information that may be related.
4) A new thing, tossing arm inversion, has been missed for 24 years on this forum. Tossing Arm Inversion may occur because the insertion of the lat should be positioned to improve how the tossing arm is brought down in the serve. ? Palpation is a quick simple method to observe tendon structures, angles and locations
5) I pointed out that the Lat & Pec Major are responsible on the tennis serve for ISR. Do angles of the humerus and lat tendon matter for the service motion?
6) The Spinal Engine is somehow adding forces to the Lat tendon and - through the Lat insertion - for ISR. Would that work better for certain angle, think about it. Look at the shoulder structure and the insertion shape and consider the angles of the upper arm and lat tendon.
7) I hoped to find a reader that knew how to palpitate the lat insert.
Generally, when something is new, as for Arm Inversion and Spinal Engine, collect any information that interests you, and might, somehow be related.
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It hasn't been completely missed on the forum; there is the thread from 2005. Maybe it appears elsewhere as well.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Please quote the thread.
yossarian
Professional
I am a physical therapist. You can palpate the muscle belly of the lat but to actually feel its insertion into the humerus is probably not likely
Palpation isn’t super accurate to begin with. The lat wraps under the humerus and inserts on its anterior aspect to the intertubercular groove. You can palpate the tubercles and feel the soft tissue between them but you’d theoretically have to work your way through the deltoid, pec, and biceps to feel the lat in that position
optic yellow
Legend
And also what is the point of doing plapation when the description of attachment point and attachment point on the humerus is sufficient for someone to attune themselves to where it works.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
----deleted
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optic yellow
Legend
I already told you the ****ing answer man.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Tossing Arm Inversion
Some considerations-
Where is the Lat insertion while the ball is being tossed as seen in serve videos? For my serve my tossing arm External Shoulder Rotation and Supination (of the forearm) are about at max voluntary ESR and Supination angles, in order to get my finger tips to point up for the toss. A lot of ESR wraps my Lat Tendon partly around my humerus (upper arm bone). But we want what most ATP players are doing from videos.
Where is the Lat insertion after the arm is rotated as for 'Arm Inversion' as seen in videos for most ATP servers? The hand is easy to see, but here we are interested in ISR or ESR of the humerus and not Supination or Pronation that appear on the more visible hand. That is a difficulty in analyzing videos for ESR angle.
We need to find the reason for Tossing Arm Inversion. Best from whoever knows best. In the meantime, positioning the Lat insertion on the Humerus to bring the tossing arm down, as seen in videos, seems a feasible speculation. Possibly the reason is not yet known by anyone. ?
I have been reading about serves a lot since 2011. I don't recall Tossing Arm Inversion being mentioned.
Some considerations-
Where is the Lat insertion while the ball is being tossed as seen in serve videos? For my serve my tossing arm External Shoulder Rotation and Supination (of the forearm) are about at max voluntary ESR and Supination angles, in order to get my finger tips to point up for the toss. A lot of ESR wraps my Lat Tendon partly around my humerus (upper arm bone). But we want what most ATP players are doing from videos.
Where is the Lat insertion after the arm is rotated as for 'Arm Inversion' as seen in videos for most ATP servers? The hand is easy to see, but here we are interested in ISR or ESR of the humerus and not Supination or Pronation that appear on the more visible hand. That is a difficulty in analyzing videos for ESR angle.
We need to find the reason for Tossing Arm Inversion. Best from whoever knows best. In the meantime, positioning the Lat insertion on the Humerus to bring the tossing arm down, as seen in videos, seems a feasible speculation. Possibly the reason is not yet known by anyone. ?
I have been reading about serves a lot since 2011. I don't recall Tossing Arm Inversion being mentioned.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Posted on Youtube around Sep 10, 2024.
First, a history of coaching Sabalenka through the ups and downs. Coaching - as I have not heard it before for openness and knowledge. Goals. Many topics. No stroke technique details that I'm most interested in. After the Monica Seles story, at about 47:10, he describes his experience as a young player. Then there are some important training changes for tennis that are extremely important, such as avoiding heavy strength exercises. Then there is a general discussion of tennis strokes but with few stroke specifics. Really an excellent video on technical tennis at the top. Rarely heard anything like it.
First, a history of coaching Sabalenka through the ups and downs. Coaching - as I have not heard it before for openness and knowledge. Goals. Many topics. No stroke technique details that I'm most interested in. After the Monica Seles story, at about 47:10, he describes his experience as a young player. Then there are some important training changes for tennis that are extremely important, such as avoiding heavy strength exercises. Then there is a general discussion of tennis strokes but with few stroke specifics. Really an excellent video on technical tennis at the top. Rarely heard anything like it.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
On the other hand, when it comes to new stroke technique information, this Gavin MacMillan video is loaded. Listen carefully and have the captions on, view it slowly, stopping on each subject. Record the details that interest you carefully with the times of the video. Much of what he has to say has been new to me. (Do some Youtube videos have text available for the entire captions?)
John Craig - Performance Plus Tennis
To single frame, stop video, go full screen, and use the period & comma keys. (Single frame is not available on phones as far as I know.)
Below is a very rough guide to when certain stroke technique information started. View entire video carefully with captions on. Some information I believe relates to Spinal Engine. Go from start time to when the stroke information ends for each time shown. Take your own notes and study what is said.
My words are to help identify place in the video and not to sum up what Gavin actually said.
2:42 - Sabalenka's Ball Toss Too High
'Symptom not cause'
6:20 - Forehand Racket High - Gavin comments on why.
7:46 - Backhand Comments
25:30
12:51 - Sampras Serve
16:48 - Forehand Comment
17:55 - Zerev Serve in AO first 2 sets of some match where great tennis occurred.
'Left arm pulls and right leg shifts' ?? Spinal Engine?
19:30 - Serve - Left/tossing arm & hand is leader not hitting arm. Gavin emphasizes this point with some demos of his arm.
20:09 - Details of Serve
20:29 - Serve chest turn
20:33 - Serve - Tossing arm right side of head. Check this.
20:39 - Serve - Counter rotation of upper spine to lower spine & left hip. Check this wording out vs the captions plus spoken words.
22:50 - Serve - Tossing arm straight down. Need to see a video or Gavin demo for how the tossing arm is brought down according to Gavin.
24:00 - Forehand & Serve - 'Everything starts on the front side' Off arm side not hitting arm. side. - ? torque in spine to give whip to right arm. New information. See Gavin Demos.
Update 8/17/2024 Important information added.
25:30 - Forehand - forehand rotates that way (shows).
26:22 - Forehand - Not a lag. Unwinding of arm. If you get the right position here (shows). Unwinding forehand.
26:57 Forehand - PEC stretch reaction.
I consider this Gavin MacMillan stroke technique information to be very significant.
John Craig - Performance Plus Tennis
Below is a very rough guide to when certain stroke technique information started. View entire video carefully with captions on. Some information I believe relates to Spinal Engine. Go from start time to when the stroke information ends for each time shown. Take your own notes and study what is said.
My words are to help identify place in the video and not to sum up what Gavin actually said.
2:42 - Sabalenka's Ball Toss Too High
'Symptom not cause'
6:20 - Forehand Racket High - Gavin comments on why.
7:46 - Backhand Comments
25:30
12:51 - Sampras Serve
16:48 - Forehand Comment
17:55 - Zerev Serve in AO first 2 sets of some match where great tennis occurred.
'Left arm pulls and right leg shifts' ?? Spinal Engine?
19:30 - Serve - Left/tossing arm & hand is leader not hitting arm. Gavin emphasizes this point with some demos of his arm.
20:09 - Details of Serve
20:29 - Serve chest turn
20:33 - Serve - Tossing arm right side of head. Check this.
20:39 - Serve - Counter rotation of upper spine to lower spine & left hip. Check this wording out vs the captions plus spoken words.
22:50 - Serve - Tossing arm straight down. Need to see a video or Gavin demo for how the tossing arm is brought down according to Gavin.
24:00 - Forehand & Serve - 'Everything starts on the front side' Off arm side not hitting arm. side. - ? torque in spine to give whip to right arm. New information. See Gavin Demos.
Update 8/17/2024 Important information added.
25:30 - Forehand - forehand rotates that way (shows).
26:22 - Forehand - Not a lag. Unwinding of arm. If you get the right position here (shows). Unwinding forehand.
26:57 Forehand - PEC stretch reaction.
I consider this Gavin MacMillan stroke technique information to be very significant.
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I really like this advice. I've always explained this to players as winding and unwinding or respecting the preparation. I would sometimes have players freeze just before they start the swing with their hitting arm. In that position it's easy to illustrate mistakes with the prep. You can't unwind what you didn't wind and you can't wind it wrong and have it unwind right.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
That is a great early find on what we are calling Arm Inversion observation on the forum. And Gavin gave some details about.
Post #1 of thread "Inverting the Tossing Arm" from 2005.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Long 120 minute video interview by Tennis Summit 2024 again with loads of Gavin MacMillan tennis technique information.
To single frame, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys. No single frame on
Times are for the purpose of finding certain information in the video. Put captions on and take additional notes on what interests you.
Times near start of information
1:10 Mehrban asks for 2 big mistakes that players make.
1:56 Gavin - The biggest mistake is that people teach what they think they see.
2:24 Gavin - Important description right arm, stretch reflex, PEC, internal rotation?...... I am not sure of some of the details but important PEC stretching. S
4:42 - Priority to make served ball rise as on kick serve.
5:10 - Pinpoint or Platform Stance?
8:56 - Most of power from rotational core. Left shoulder to right hip.
9:31 - Spinal Engine Dr Gracovetsky, Harvard Presentation 2008
12:51 - Serving on sides Effective serves bounce up.
15:15 - If you get in trouble under pressure, Go back to what you know. Safety zone of old technique...
17:36 -Sabalenka serve analysis with video. Timing problems.
Best Spinal Engine on Tennis Serve Description so far
20:58 - Spinal Engine description - Left foot in relation to right hip Sabalenka example. Counter rotation upper spine..
23:14 - Spinal Engine description -
Time? - somewhere on the Sabalenka analysis Gavin mentions the 'left arm should be to right of head' - if you see that, please post the time.
26:17 - Weight Transfer
26:23 - Tossing Arm Inversion - Left arm inverts at this time, so scapula rolls up. Gavin gives the reason.
( video is 120 minutes long_to be continued. )
Times are for the purpose of finding certain information in the video. Put captions on and take additional notes on what interests you.
Times near start of information
1:10 Mehrban asks for 2 big mistakes that players make.
1:56 Gavin - The biggest mistake is that people teach what they think they see.
2:24 Gavin - Important description right arm, stretch reflex, PEC, internal rotation?...... I am not sure of some of the details but important PEC stretching. S
4:42 - Priority to make served ball rise as on kick serve.
5:10 - Pinpoint or Platform Stance?
8:56 - Most of power from rotational core. Left shoulder to right hip.
9:31 - Spinal Engine Dr Gracovetsky, Harvard Presentation 2008
12:51 - Serving on sides Effective serves bounce up.
15:15 - If you get in trouble under pressure, Go back to what you know. Safety zone of old technique...
17:36 -Sabalenka serve analysis with video. Timing problems.
Best Spinal Engine on Tennis Serve Description so far
20:58 - Spinal Engine description - Left foot in relation to right hip Sabalenka example. Counter rotation upper spine..
23:14 - Spinal Engine description -
Time? - somewhere on the Sabalenka analysis Gavin mentions the 'left arm should be to right of head' - if you see that, please post the time.
26:17 - Weight Transfer
26:23 - Tossing Arm Inversion - Left arm inverts at this time, so scapula rolls up. Gavin gives the reason.
( video is 120 minutes long_to be continued. )
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Video is interesting @ 22:20, but various ATP servers demonstrate that his comments about turning the front foot more parallel to allow for counter rotation of the spine and hip bowing out over the baseline aren't fully correct (certainly not for these players).
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Sinner is more sideways with his foot position and complies with his model, but those guys above both have the front foot pointing forward and can still get the hip out. Does not compute.
✂️ Zverev Pinpoint Foot Position
13 seconds · Clipped by Mark Henderson · Original video "Alexander Zverev Serve Slow Motion (Side View) - ATP Serve Technique" by Love Tennis
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Sinner is more sideways with his foot position and complies with his model, but those guys above both have the front foot pointing forward and can still get the hip out. Does not compute.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I added some more information to that earlier video. Post #392.
I'll be a while getting through the 2 hour video. #396.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think that I heard Gavin say that he did not like something about Zerev's serve technique. ?? What angle did Zerev's foot have? What angle does Gavin recommend? Was that a comment on Sabalenka's foot that he spoke about, angle? .Video is interesting @ 22:20, but various ATP servers demonstrate that his comments about turning the front foot more parallel to allow for counter rotation of the spine and hip bowing out over the baseline aren't fully correct (certainly not for these players).
✂️ Zverev Pinpoint Foot Position
13 seconds · Clipped by Mark Henderson · Original video "Alexander Zverev Serve Slow Motion (Side View) - ATP Serve Technique" by Love Tennis
Sinner is more sideways with his foot position and complies with his model, but those guys above both have the front foot pointing forward and can still get the hip out. Does not compute.
I do not know the percent of ATP players that have Spinal Engine and cannot yet observe SE or any of its checkpoints. Tossing Arm Inversion is easy to observe, most ATP players servers do it based on about 10 players that I looked at.
I just added some more times at the end in Post #392. Great forehand details, new to me.
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
I can only imagine. I am however sure you will have fun!
Here is another example from @Serve Doc working with a pro - both feet pointing sightly forward, and at least 45 degrees imo:
What Gavin says resonates with me and I do turn my foot more sideways like Sabs and Sinner. I can't really do what Zverev and Ramos are doing because my bad knees both feel that load and they don't like it. I'm just saying that is isn't true for everyone, and it would appear there are different ways of loading to generate power.
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