The tennis shot-clock: reality vs delusions

brc444

Rookie
For better or worse, the actual 25 second rule for first serves and "without delay" for second serves is much stricter than its implemmentation and enforcement.
 

Thriller

Hall of Fame
How often do these situations arise?

I don't know what's so difficult. Someone has to decide when the ball has gone out of play and the point is over. It's not you, it's not me, it's not the players, it's not the commentators. It's the umpire. The point is over when he/she calls the score and both players know the next point has started.

The server has up to 25 seconds to serve. The returner has to make sure he/she is ready when the server is ready to serve.

Players with a slow tempo are going to feel rushed by players who don't take the whole 25 seconds, players with a fast tempo are going to be frustrated by players who take the full 25 seconds. In both cases, tough. Your job is to play to the rhythm of the server, end of discussion.

We now have a shot clock. If that clock is frequently / at all counting down to zero and servers are not being reprimanded then the person to blame is the umpire. I haven't watched the match yet but my impression is that is not what happened today.

This type of overly-officious officiating is just ridiculous in my opinion, is this what you really want to see?

 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
We now have a shot clock. If that clock is frequently / at all counting down to zero and servers are not being reprimanded then the person to blame is the umpire. I haven't watched the match yet but my impression is that is not what happened today.
That's the problem here; the discretion on when the serve clock starts is not really the debate here. It's a red herring from @intrepidish distracting from the actual issue, which is the umpire not calling time violations on a certain player, leading other players and fans to realize he is getting preferential treatment

Reminder that this is the player who threatened to boycott an umpire from his matches because he dared to enforce the rules. That umpire of course quickly fell in line

 
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Thriller

Hall of Fame
That's the problem here; the discretion on when the shot clock starts is not really the debate here. It's a red herring distracting from the actual issue, which is the umpire not calling time violations on a certain player, which leads other players and fans to think he is getting preferential treatment

But you can't call time violations when there is still time on the clock. Shapo today was complaining that Nadal wasn't given a time violation when there was still 3 seconds on the clock.

"I'm completely ready to play and the clock is ticking 3, 2, 1, clicking towards zero. I'm looking at the umpire and obviously I'm going to speak up and say something. "

Frankly, he's an idiot. The time to complain is when the clock has hit zero, not before. By his own admission he actually held Nadal up because he wasn't ready to receive.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
But you can't call time violations when there is still time on the clock. Shapo today was complaining that Nadal wasn't given a time violation when there was still 3 seconds on the clock.

"I'm completely ready to play and the clock is ticking 3, 2, 1, clicking towards zero. I'm looking at the umpire and obviously I'm going to speak up and say something. "

Frankly, he's an idiot. The time to complain is when the clock has hit zero, not before. By his own admission he actually held Nadal up because he wasn't ready to receive.

You can clearly see here, Shapo is on the baseline ready to serve. He looks at the other end of the court and sees Nadal walking away with his back turned.

The umpire had called time 45 seconds ago (according to Shapo), and Nadal should have been ready to receive, and of course he wasn't

What follows is the bizarre argument from the chair, saying Shapo is not ready because he came to complain. Well yes, he did, but only after you failed to enforce the goddamn rules
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
But you can't call time violations when there is still time on the clock. Shapo today was complaining that Nadal wasn't given a time violation when there was still 3 seconds on the clock.

Actually you can, according to the rule book. I quoted it above, but here it's again

"A Time Violation may be issued prior to the expiration of twenty-five (25) seconds if the receiver’s actions are delaying the reasonable pace of the server."

And it was clearly the case today.
 

Zara

G.O.A.T.

You can clearly see here, Shapo is on the baseline ready to serve. He looks at the other end of the court and sees Nadal walking away with his back turned.

The umpire had called time 45 seconds ago (according to Shapo), and Nadal should have been ready to receive, and of course he wasn't

What follows is the bizarre argument from the chair, saying Shapo is not ready because he came to complain. Well yes, he did, but only after you failed to enforce the goddamn rules

Yeah, that was a bizarre reply from the umpire.
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
Rafa won the first ever top level title with a shot clock! o_O

Yess!
2909e-1534325630-800.jpg



And A. Zverev became the first player to get a time violation warning after implementing the serve clock:

 

PilotPete

Hall of Fame

You can clearly see here, Shapo is on the baseline ready to serve. He looks at the other end of the court and sees Nadal walking away with his back turned.

The umpire had called time 45 seconds ago (according to Shapo), and Nadal should have been ready to receive, and of course he wasn't

What follows is the bizarre argument from the chair, saying Shapo is not ready because he came to complain. Well yes, he did, but only after you failed to enforce the goddamn rules

This is insane, what's wrong with these umps who can't enforce the rules?
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
Goòd god! You guys just whinge a lot. Just watch some tennis.


Oh the poor returner with the momentum. What about Rafa's momentum? Despite his momentum, he's still taking his 25 sec to serve. Doesn't playing slow disrupt Rafa's own momentum? It's his OCD routine. Deal with it. Shapo is just being a cry baby. And most of the forum members here as well.
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
Goòd god! You guys just whinge a lot. Just watch some tennis.


Oh the poor returner with the momentum. What about Rafa's momentum? Despite his momentum, he's still taking his 25 sec to serve. Doesn't playing slow disrupt Rafa's own momentum? It's his OCD routine. Deal with it. Shapo is just being a cry baby. And most of the forum members here as well.
No individual routine can be above the rules.
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
I don’t care about the shot clock. I do get annoyed at pace of play. One small thing they could do to improve that is get rid of the let.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
You lot wanted a shot clock. You have it. You've had it for a couple of years. Players get warning if they go over. And you lot are still complaining? It's like you have nothing better to do.
The complaints are around one particular player not getting warned over it
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, the only point you’ve made here is that the umpires are complicit in enabling Nadal, not that the actions of Rafa are correct.

I will never understand how Nadal fans refuse to see what is a ridiculous, intentionally drawn out routine that involves toweling off on both sides then placing it perfectly flat, sometimes taking 2-3 tries, then a slow walk over to serve, then dropping the ball, etc. etc. it’s been going on for 15 years now. You watch nearly every match of his. How can you possibly not see it?

I will concede that he was mostly fine yesterday against Shapo. However against Mannarino especially in the TB the dude was taking 45+ seconds and that’s no exaggeration.
I wonder why you are unable to understand that the 25-second countdown begins when the umpire calls the score and it doesn't matter how a player spends his time during those 25 seconds before starting his service motion.
This is a blatant lie that during the 1st set TB against Mannarino Rafa started his service motion 20 seconds after the serve clock hit zero.
(I have replied you the same multiple times.)
 
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The Rafa fans that can't just admit he gets away with it are the worst. Nothing is going to happen to him.

Playbook whenever someone is playing Rafa:

The first time you get out to a 40-0 lead on your serve, remain standing on the baseline while giving the chair a death-stare. Eventually they will call a time violation, and there is your baseline for the rest of the match. (this assumes these company men will adhere to their own precedent)
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
The complaints are around one particular player not getting warned over it
The only one complaining and behaving like a petulant child is Shapovalov. And that is because he lost and he's disappointed.

Rafa has got multiple time violations throughout his career. If the umpire did not give him one then he probably did not deserve one.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Rafa has got multiple time violations throughout his career.
He doesn't get nearly as many as he deserves, that's part of the problem
If the umpire did not give him one then he probably did not deserve one.
mj-laughing.gif

He did not deserve one... Or the umpire let it slide because otherwise Nadal calls for him to be boycotted from his matches
 
The question is, why hasn't Fed made a big scene about this during a match? The Big 3 know they can do whatever they want, but the chair would have a easy decision to make if your options were: enforce objective rule, go against Fed.

I think this is the clear difference between Fed and Rafa. Rafa will do anything to win. Fed will fume silently, and try to shut him up by beating him. If the roles were reversed Rafa would complain in the first set every time they met.
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
He doesn't get nearly as many as he deserves, that's part of the problem

mj-laughing.gif

He did not deserve one... Or the umpire let it slide because otherwise Nadal calls for him to be boycotted from his matches
Salty much? I think so. As I said, this is a forum of "whingers".

I remember that incident. So? He can officiate other matches. What makes you think Fed or Djokovic or any other superstar do not extract a little bit of favourable treatment?
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Salty much? I think so. As I said, this is a forum of "whingers".

I remember that incident. So? He can officiate other matches. What makes you think Fed or Djokovic or any other superstar do not extract a little bit of favourable treatment?
The "whinging" happens because some player(s) is/are receiving special treatment. That's not hard to understand

Sports are supposed to be fair, this includes the rules being applied the same way to everyone. When they are not, we have a problem
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
The point is, it would be fine if he did only take the allotted 25 seconds to catch his breath, but he very often exceeds this limit
The umpire will give a time violation warning, when the serve clock hits zero before a player begins the service motion. So, it's impossible to take more time than the serve clock allows without being punished. It's meaningless to try to convince readers that Rafa often starts his service motion after the serve clock has hit zero.
The time between points broadcasters show on TV screens is misleading, because nobody (besides broadcasters) knows when their countdown begins.
 

intrepidish

Hall of Fame
I'm happy to see the topic has generated so much interest and since it has, I'll summarize some of the more salient points once again:

Any time 'averages' we see are simply someone else's own opinion as to when the clock should be started, not the umpire's. Usually these are compiled by a broadcaster. Neither the ATP nor the ITF publishes any time related statistics.

The person who is considered best situated to decide when a point has ended and reasonable conditions are satisfied for beginning a new one is the umpire and the umpire alone who then communicates this verbally.

Those reasonable conditions as per the umpire may involve the court itself, player inquiries, the crowd, noise levels, injuries, equipment malfunctions or health hazards, loose balls as well as weather conditions or virtually anything the umpire deems to be of any reasonable impact.

Tennis for most of its history did not have a shot clock. Tennis with its serve to begin activity does not resemble the continuous play of sports like basketball with its shot clock. In fact typically, the server waits for conditions of generalized quiet, much like those we associate with a golf swing.
 
Nadal took over 50 seconds to serve here. Not a peep from the umpire. Why is that? :unsure:


Lol! There are plenty of these around. The hidden time wasting is between first and second serves in which Nadalito wastes an extra 15 seconds. Thankfully his 1st serve % is usually high.

Also, most people who play I’m sure can attest to how annoying time wasting is. My older brother is a time-water and it’s annoying beyond belief.
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
Lol! There are plenty of these around. The hidden time wasting is between first and second serves in which Nadalito wastes an extra 15 seconds. Thankfully his 1st serve % is usually high.

Also, most people who play I’m sure can attest to how annoying time wasting is. My older brother is a time-water and it’s annoying beyond belief.
And how many knee surgeries has Fed had, as a result ?
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
I'm happy to see the topic has generated so much interest and since it has, I'll summarize some of the more salient points once again:

Any time 'averages' we see are simply someone else's own opinion as to when the clock should be started, not the umpire's. Usually these are compiled by a broadcaster. Neither the ATP nor the ITF publishes any time related statistics.

The person who is considered best situated to decide when a point has ended and reasonable conditions are satisfied for beginning a new one is the umpire and the umpire alone who then communicates this verbally.

Those reasonable conditions as per the umpire may involve the court itself, player inquiries, the crowd, noise levels, injuries, equipment malfunctions or health hazards, loose balls as well as weather conditions or virtually anything the umpire deems to be of any reasonable impact.

Tennis for most of its history did not have a shot clock. Tennis with its serve to begin activity does not resemble the continuous play of sports like basketball with its shot clock. In fact typically, the server waits for conditions of generalized quiet, much like those we associate with a golf swing.


I have said I don't feel the clock is that important, however many sports have changed over the years and tennis is no exception and I am a big believer in change. For example the tie break has been a great idea at all tournaments. As has having three sets at everything except for slams. As has having hawkeye. I think tennis needs to pick up the pace of play. I think dumping the let would also help. Its a dumb rule. The shot clock for serves is tough in tennis, there are a lot of variables but I feel tennis should always strive to find ways to keep the game moving.
 

tex123

Hall of Fame
The "whinging" happens because some player(s) is/are receiving special treatment. That's not hard to understand

Sports are supposed to be fair, this includes the rules being applied the same way to everyone. When they are not, we have a problem
No. The "whinging" happens with cry-babies. Moan and moan about Nadal. You got the shot clock and you're still moaning. You now don't have line judges. You're still moaning. Get rid of the umpire too?

Get a medical check up. This much moaning can't be good for anyone.
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
No. The "whinging" happens with cry-babies. Moan and moan about Nadal. You got the shot clock and you're still moaning. You now don't have line judges. You're still moaning. Get rid of the umpire too?

Get a medical check up. This much moaning can't be good for anyone.
The shot clock is pointless if the umpire does not call time violations when it expires
 

intrepidish

Hall of Fame
I have said I don't feel the clock is that important, however many sports have changed over the years and tennis is no exception and I am a big believer in change. For example the tie break has been a great idea at all tournaments. As has having three sets at everything except for slams. As has having hawkeye. I think tennis needs to pick up the pace of play. I think dumping the let would also help. Its a dumb rule. The shot clock for serves is tough in tennis, there are a lot of variables but I feel tennis should always strive to find ways to keep the game moving.

Tennis did indeed change and has the shot clock now. But it's not an 'automatic' shot clock like what one might have in basketball. That would not work for tennis because of the difference in the nature of what it is to start a point in tennis. Discretion is necessarily built into a tennis shot clock and it's time for people to accept that head on.

Picking up the pace may or may not be good for tennis and its popularity; 2 of the 3 most popular players are indeed the ones most commonly cited when this topic comes up and golf is of course considerably more popular than tennis by many metrics in the United States among other countries.
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
He doesn't get nearly as many as he deserves, that's part of the problem

mj-laughing.gif

He did not deserve one... Or the umpire let it slide because otherwise Nadal calls for him to be boycotted from his matches

This is just your imagination that Rafa starts his service motion after the serve clock hits zero. You are a victim of TV broadcasters who show on TV screens "time between the points" that has nothing to do with the serve clock.
 
If the umpire did not give him one then he probably did not deserve one.

the level of stupidity is off the charts really.
many posters in this thread alone have posted factual evidence that clearly shows Rafa was breaking the rules on many occasions in his match vs Shapo and this is your reply?
 

intrepidish

Hall of Fame
This is just your imagination that Rafa starts his service motion after the serve clock hits zero. You are a victim of TV broadcasters who show on TV screens "time between the points" that has nothing to do with the serve clock.

I've tried to make this point clear many times but it's obvious that these people still don't understand how the shot clock works even when it's explained point-blank.
 
This is just your imagination that Rafa starts his service motion after the serve clock hits zero. You are a victim of TV broadcasters who show on TV screens "time between the points" that has nothing to do with the serve clock.

I stopped counting yesterday after it happened for the 5th time. they sadly don't show the shot clock every time neither so there's that. stop bs'ing yourself. this has been going on for decades now, it's rather silly.
 
I've tried to make this point clear many times but it's obvious that these people still don't understand how the shot clock works even when it's explained point-blank.

I see nadal bouncing the ball, shot clock hits 0, nadal sees it, starts serve motion. do i really need to dig out video proof from eurosport for you?
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
Tennis did indeed change and has the shot clock now. But it's not an 'automatic' shot clock like what one might have in basketball. That would not work for tennis because of the difference in the nature of what it is to start a point in tennis. Discretion is necessarily built into a tennis shot clock and it's time for people to accept that head on.

Picking up the pace may or may not be good for tennis and its popularity; 2 of the 3 most popular players are indeed the ones most commonly cited when this topic comes up and golf is of course considerably more popular than tennis by many metrics in the United States among other countries.
Maybe make it 1 minute for 1st and 2nd serves period. If you go over that you just lose a point. If you take 45 on your first serve then you better be ready to pull the trigger quick on your second.
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
the level of stupidity is off the charts really.
many posters in this thread alone have posted factual evidence that clearly shows Rafa was breaking the rules on many occasions in his match vs Shapo and this is your reply?
Many posters in this thread have posted lies about Rafa ....
 

intrepidish

Hall of Fame
I see nadal bouncing the ball, shot clock hits 0, nadal sees it, starts serve motion. do i really need to dig out video proof from eurosport for you?

It has happened to many players to serve at or around 0 on the shot clock. That's not 'proof' of anything.

If Djokovic, Nadal or anyone else were to go over the clock consistently, that would be a different story. Unless you go to all the players' matches live and are seated with the clock in plain view as you watch them all serve and are compiling statistics, all we are talking about here is the occasional anecdote.

And the plural of anecdote isn't evidence. Moreover, without the input of the umpire to know whether the umpire had a reason for his or her decisions, it's barely even an anecdote.

The crux of the issue is that at its core, the whole enterprise of a shot clock in a sport like tennis must necessarily be built on discretion in any case. It's merely a question of where in the chain the discretion is located.
 
Many posters in this thread have posted lies about Rafa ....

ok so if I dig up video proof of rafa's time violations during his match vs shapo in the next 24 hours, will you change your signature to 'I must sadly confess my Idol Rafael Nadal is a time violation cheater' ?

I'll offer to change mine to 'I am a loser who has no purpose in life other than spew lies about the tennis goat that is Rafa Nadal' if I don't deliver.

deal?
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Tennis for most of its history did not have a shot clock. Tennis with its serve to begin activity does not resemble the continuous play of sports like basketball with its shot clock.
There is another sport with similarly structured play: American rules football. Every play starts with a snap and ends when the ball is ruled dead. One team - the offense - has the ball (much like the server) and the other team defends, and is forced to play to the pace of the offense until the possession is over (like a service game)

The offense is given exactly 40 seconds at the end of the previous play to start the next play (the play clock), but may elect to take less time. If the ball is not snapped when the play clock reaches zero, the offense is given a "delay of game" penalty

If one can coordinate 22 players on the field to play with a play clock, we can can do that with 2/4 players in tennis. To pretend that it's some sort of an impossible task is disingenuous at best
 
It has happened to many players to serve at or around 0 on the shot clock. That's not 'proof' of anything.

learn to read. it's not at or around 0. it's at least 3 seconds after. and all a reasonable person asks for is to implement the shot clock in a way that an alarm goes off after 25 sec and once that alarm goes off, time violation is given.

what's the argument against this?
 

insideguy

G.O.A.T.
It has happened to many players to serve at or around 0 on the shot clock. That's not 'proof' of anything.

If Djokovic, Nadal or anyone else were to go over the clock consistently, that would be a different story. Unless you go to all the players' matches live and are seated with the clock in plain view as you watch them all serve and are compiling statistics, all we are talking about here is the occasional anecdote.

And the plural of anecdote isn't evidence.

The crux of the issue is that at its core, the whole enterprise of a shot clock in a sport like tennis must necessarily be built on discretion in any case. It's merely a question of where in the chain the discretion is located.
How about having the shot clock go the other way from 1 and then count. And no count down, count up no zero. That way people and the judge could see exactly how long they are are going over all the time.
 

octobrina10

Talk Tennis Guru
I stopped counting yesterday after it happened for the 5th time. they sadly don't show the shot clock every time neither so there's that. stop bs'ing yourself. this has been going on for decades now, it's rather silly.
First, you are cheating readers that Rafa started his service motion after the serve clock hit zero.
Secondly, broadcasters show the serve clock when the countdown nears zero. (They are obviously constantly staring at the serve clock.)
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
learn to read. it's not at or around 0. it's at least 3 seconds after. and all a reasonable person asks for is to implement the shot clock in a way that an alarm goes off after 25 sec and once that alarm goes off, time violation is given.

what's the argument against this?
An audible buzzer that goes off when the clock reaches zero would be very easy to implement. We know why it's not done though
 
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