The tennis shot-clock: reality vs delusions

[darthrafa]

there are not many problems on the rules and system at this moment. players of course would make use/abuse them but any change would lead to other new problems.
since players are complaining the execution, which can be solved by ATP giving instructions to umpires. in the meantime, players can raise their views/complaints to umpire during matches
and they shall do so with a proper/wise manner, which shall not also adversely affect themselves

 

[PilotPete]

And yet, both are at the discretion of the umpire. Go figure.

Yes, I agree tennis has some stupid rules. Tanking should be removed as a rule since it's impossible to judge and time between points should be fixed like NFL football. Heck maybe give players timeouts! That could work quite well. 3 timeouts like 3 challenges.

 

[Aabye5]

Yes, I agree tennis has some stupid rules. Tanking should be removed as a rule since it's impossible to judge and time between points should be fixed like NFL football. Heck maybe give players timeouts! That could work quite well. 3 timeouts like 3 challenges.

But until then...the umps are not useless. You can always propose whatever you want.

 

[PilotPete]

But until then...the umps are not useless. You can always propose whatever you want.

they are pretty useless overall. Remove the tanking rule and put stronger definitions on other rules. No towel between points, one bathroom break else you forfeit, fixed time between points, penalty if you go over, etc and they are entirely useless.

 

[tudwell]

Of course, one can attempt to analogize tennis to football where silence and calm before beginning action is not even remotely contemplated. However now we have traveled even farther from the traditions of tennis and the mere suggestion is rather comical.

I’ve actually wondered recently: Now that automatic Hawkeye seems to be taking over at the big tournaments, we could theoretically make the out calls sound like anything. A buzzer or whistle. One practical reason for the quiet in tennis is to hear the line judges’ calls, but without line judges that’s moot. Players could play through the din and still hear the out buzzer or what-have-you.

I don’t anticipate those kinds of changes happening anytime soon, if ever, but it’s theoretically possible.

 

[Aabye5]

they are pretty useless overall. Remove the tanking rule and put stronger definitions on other rules. No towel between points, one bathroom break else you forfeit, fixed time between points, penalty if you go over, etc and they are entirely useless.

And if there were no rules, we also wouldn't need the umps...though I'm not sure it is still tennis at that point.

Honestly, I can usually appreciate imaginative thinking, whether or not I agree with it. Interesting proposals.

 

[Zara]

@intrepidish

I dedicate this song to Nadal on your behalf. Happy now?

 

[PilotPete]

And if there were no rules, we also wouldn't need the umps...though I'm not sure it is still tennis at that point.

Honestly, I can usually appreciate imaginative thinking, whether or not I agree with it. Interesting proposals.

Why? Lines people became obsolete and tennis goes on. Ump can become obsolete too. Just need to fine tune the rules a bit.

 

[insideguy]

Look if a player who keeps going over the time during a 5 set match and he is warned one time its not a real rule. Thats all there is to it. I don't care what anyone says. Its not a rule. Its a suggestion.

 

[Aabye5]

Look if a player who keeps going over the time during a 5 set match and he is warned one time its not a real rule. Thats all there is to it. I don't care what anyone says. Its not a rule. Its a suggestion.

This much is true.

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

A player who takes more than 25 seconds before starting his service motion will get punished by the chair umpire. Simple. The chair umpire controls the time, not broadcasters, who ignore the serve clock.

wrong. as seen in nadal vs shapo. the umpire can neglect it and thus giving nadal an advantage.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

I'm wondering, how it's possible that you "became bored to see Nadal taking more time than usual before the first serve of a game" if you did not notice it.

You are a victim of Rafa bashers (on TTW) who have no idea what Shapovalov was complaining about. You read false stories about Rafa, generated by bashers who don't watch matches.

I said when I noticed it, and after that it became boring, anyway yes, there are plenty of bashers here.

 

[octobrina10]

wrong. as seen in nadal vs shapo. the umpire can neglect it and thus giving nadal an advantage.

Have you any evidence?

 

[octobrina10]

I said when I noticed it, and after that it became boring, anyway yes, there are plenty of bashers here.

What exactly did become boring? Have you understood by now what Shapo was complaining about?

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

Have you any evidence?

I already proposed a bet to you.

 

[octobrina10]

I already proposed a bet to you.

So, you have no evidence.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

What exactly did become boring? Have you understood by now what Shapo was complaining about?

I was explícit about was boring. And it is regardless of what player does it.

 

[junior74]

Well, the only point you’ve made here is that the umpires are complicit in enabling Nadal, not that the actions of Rafa are correct.

I will never understand how Nadal fans refuse to see what is a ridiculous, intentionally drawn out routine that involves toweling off on both sides then placing it perfectly flat, sometimes taking 2-3 tries, then a slow walk over to serve, then dropping the ball, etc. etc. it’s been going on for 15 years now. You watch nearly every match of his. How can you possibly not see it?

I will concede that he was mostly fine yesterday against Shapo. However against Mannarino especially in the TB the dude was taking 45+ seconds and that’s no exaggeration.

I still think the biggest problem is that he is allowed to dictate pace when returning, as well. It's not allowed to serve until Nadal is not only ready, but has been ready for at least 5 seconds. You can see on players faces how complicated it is to know when you can serve against him

And - again - it's not Rafa's fault. It's the umpires' fault. Overall, Rafa is quicker after the shot clock was introduced.

I remember once Djokovic got a warning for going over the 25 seconds against Murray, and Murray protested because it was his towelling that made Djokovic wait to serve. MurrayGOAT

 

[octobrina10]

I was explícit about was boring. And it is regardless of what player does it.

What was boring?

 

[lordlosh]

Actually when umpire says the score is when the new point starts
You will notice when there is a big roar in the stands, he won't say the score the same second point is over

Also, a lot of tournaments have official timers on court that are not visible by angle of tv camera but everyone including the player and refs can and do see it

And we all know its a fact Rafa has made a career abusing the time rule.
One wonders if rules were followed how would Federer fare in somof those finals he lost.

Way better for sure.

 

[octobrina10]

I still think the biggest problem is that he is allowed to dictate pace when returning, as well. It's not allowed to serve until Nadal is not only ready, but has been ready for at least 5 seconds. You can see on players faces how complicated it is to know when you can serve against him

And - again - it's not Rafa's fault. It's the umpires' fault. Overall, Rafa is quicker after the shot clock was introduced.

I remember once Djokovic got a warning for going over the 25 seconds against Murray, and Murray protested because it was his towelling that made Djokovic wait to serve. MurrayGOAT

@Kralingen is unable to undersand that the 25-second countdown begins when the umpire calls the score & triggers the serve clock, and it doesn't matter how a player spends his time during those 25 seconds before starting his service motion.
Post #119:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lity-vs-delusions.718218/page-3#post-16072744

 

[Kralingen]

@Kralingen is unable to undersand that the 25-second countdown begins when the umpire calls the score & triggers the serve clock, and it doesn't matter how a player spends his time during those 25 seconds before starting his service motion.
Post #119:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lity-vs-delusions.718218/page-3#post-16072744

You are unable to understand how much time Nadal spends on extracurricular activities before the serve clock begins, and how he actively intimidates umpires who attempt to start the serve clock on time.

I have never denied the reality of the 25 second serve clock. However you have denied the reality of the situation, which is that Rafa takes extra time before the serve clock begins and then complains to umpires when they try to start the serve clock before his bizarre towel rituals.

 

[Technology Ruined Tennis]

All of this would be moot if these mental giants could handle hitting a rubber ball while the crowd dares to make noise.

 

[octobrina10]

You are unable to understand how much time Nadal spends on extracurricular activities before the serve clock begins, and how he actively intimidates umpires who attempt to start the serve clock on time.

I have never denied the reality of the 25 second serve clock. However you have denied the reality of the situation, which is that Rafa takes extra time before the serve clock begins and then complains to umpires when they try to start the serve clock before his bizarre towel rituals.

I repeat what I have already replied to you:

1) The chair umpire operates the serve clock. The 25-second countdown begins when the umpire calls the score & triggers the serve clock, and ends when the clock hits zero.

2) It doesn't matter how a player spends his time during those 25 seconds before starting his service motion.

3) You are lying that Rafa "intimidates umpires who attempt to start the serve clock on time."

Look at who complains that the chair umpire starts the serve clock too early:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161952480986632192

 

[tex123]

The shot clock is pointless if the umpire does not call time violations when it expires

Complain to the ATP then.

 

[tex123]

Why? Lines people became obsolete and tennis goes on. Ump can become obsolete too. Just need to fine tune the rules a bit.

Players can become obsolete too. You can play a tennis video game. At least we won't have to put up with you lot "whinging". I'm sure you'll find something to complain about then too.

 

[octobrina10]

The shot clock is pointless if the umpire does not call time violations when it expires

Have you any evidence that the chair umpire hasn't called time violations when the serve clock has hit zero.

 

[zagor]

I still think the biggest problem is that he is allowed to dictate pace when returning, as well. It's not allowed to serve until Nadal is not only ready, but has been ready for at least 5 seconds. You can see on players faces how complicated it is to know when you can serve against him

And - again - it's not Rafa's fault. It's the umpires' fault. Overall, Rafa is quicker after the shot clock was introduced.

I remember once Djokovic got a warning for going over the 25 seconds against Murray, and Murray protested because it was his towelling that made Djokovic wait to serve. MurrayGOAT

C'mon man, not this argument again. Of course it's his fault. If I'm speeding constantly but never get a ticket because my uncle is in the law enforcement, I'm still an ass and it's on me. Doesn't matter if I always get away with it. Heck Bernandes used to actually call out Nadal's time wasting tactics until the latter asked him to be banned from his matches (in other words if he was doing his job properly, he wouldn't even be officiating Nadal's matches in the first place).

Now in less of a sissy (read contact) sport Nadal wouldn't be getting away with this, other players would take care of it but as it is, Shapo is one of the few who actually spoke up. That umpires are letting him get away with it and that all of his fans (here and elsewhere) go through mental gymnastics (see the OP) to justify such behavior doesn't exempt him from it.

 

[TheFifthSet]

That 'analysis' is built on unofficial counts in fact, just as with the broadcaster averages. There is no published data for serve times anywhere available from the ITF or ATP.

Trying to find the graphic, but the analytics site 538 reported that, in their study, Nadal was 216th fastest out of 218 recorded players.

As for whether Nadal is unduly targeted…tough to say, but I remember in 2013 Robbie Koenig bringing up the players with the most time violations on the year...Nadal had 24. Who had the most? Carlos Berlocq, with 34. Nadal played 26 more matches on the year. Not sure if the former was included in the aforementioned study.

Edit: here’s the article in question:

Why Some Tennis Matches Take Forever

Nine-time French Open champ Rafael Nadal is one of the slowest players of the last 25 years. Roger Federer is faster than average. Novak Djokovic is slower than…

fivethirtyeight.com

 

[junior74]

C'mon man, not this argument again. Of course it's his fault. If I'm speeding constantly but never get a ticket because my uncle is in the law enforcement, I'm still an ass and it's on me. Doesn't matter if I always get away with it. Heck Bernandes used to actually call out Nadal's time wasting tactics until the latter asked him to be banned from his matches (in other words if he was doing his job properly, he wouldn't even be officiating Nadal's matches in the first place).

Now in less of a sissy (read contact) sport Nadal wouldn't be getting away with this, other players would take care of it but as it is, Shapo is one of the few who actually spoke up. That umpires are letting him get away with it and that all of his fans (here and elsewhere) go through mental gymnastics (see the OP) to justify such behavior doesn't exempt him from it.

I think it's the umpires' responsibility, that's the point. We have umpires to make sure the rules are followed. They don't have to be there, if they don't use the rules. The umpire has been reduced to a person who reads the scoreline.

They don't make line calls/ over rules anymore. Why not just have an alarm that goes off after 25 seconds - with point loss as result? Much clearer, and players would make sure to be ready if point loss was the risk. Now it's a risk of getting a violation after being constantly over 25 seconds for two sets...

 

[zagor]

Trying to find the graphic, but the analytics site 538 reported that, in their study, Nadal was 216th fastest out of 218 recorded players.

As for whether Nadal is unduly targeted…tough to say, but I remember in 2013 Robbie Koenig bringing up the players with the most time violations on the year...Nadal had 24. Who had the most? Carlos Berlocq, with 34. Nadal played 26 more matches on the year.

Edit: here’s the article in question:

Why Some Tennis Matches Take Forever

Nine-time French Open champ Rafael Nadal is one of the slowest players of the last 25 years. Roger Federer is faster than average. Novak Djokovic is slower than…

fivethirtyeight.com

Everyone knows that honestly but it's fandom and that's why we're actually having these discussions in the first place about something that is very obvious (Nadal uses time wasting to his advantage, especially in high profile matches deep in the tourney).

Do you really believe that the difference between Shapo and Nadal here was just 2 seconds on average?

"Shot clock starts at the discretion of the umpire" yeah no sh1t Sherlock, that's why count often starts later for Nadal and he still takes more than the other guy.

 

[octobrina10]

C'mon man, not this argument again. Of course it's his fault. If I'm speeding constantly but never get a ticket because my uncle is in the law enforcement, I'm still an ass and it's on me. Doesn't matter if I always get away with it. Heck Bernandes used to actually call out Nadal's time wasting tactics until the latter asked him to be banned from his matches (in other words if he was doing his job properly, he wouldn't even be officiating Nadal's matches in the first place).

Now in less of a sissy (read contact) sport Nadal wouldn't be getting away with this, other players would take care of it but as it is, Shapo is one of the few who actually spoke up. That umpires are letting him get away with it and that all of his fans (here and elsewhere) go through mental gymnastics (see the OP) to justify such behavior doesn't exempt him from it.

This is not true that "Bernandes used to actually call out Nadal's time wasting tactics until the latter asked him to be banned from his matches." Rafa bashers have been repeating this lie over and over again, despite the fact that it has been explained multiple times why it happened:
Post #199:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...orrupt-shapovalov.718158/page-4#post-16073539

 

[zagor]

delete

 

[zagor]

I think it's the umpires' responsibility, that's the point. We have umpires to make sure the rules are followed. They don't have to be there, if they don't use the rules. The umpire has been reduced to a person who reads the scoreline.

It's their responsibility as tennis officials but there's also the concept of personal responsibility. Might doesn't make right, I just don't accept that as a matter of principle.

They don't make line calls/ over rules anymore. Why not just have an alarm that goes off after 25 seconds - with point loss as result? Much clearer, and players would make sure to be ready if point loss was the risk. Now it's a risk of getting a violation after being constantly over 25 seconds for two sets...

Of course, if you have solid systems in place there's less room for abuse as you abstract the human element as much as possible.

Take basketball for example, imagine if Lebron's team had extra 10 seconds if he was in possession of the ball simply because he's Lebron. Would be real messy, how do you avoid the mess? Have a system that is not so dependent on "discretion of the umpire".

 

[junior74]

It's their responsibility as tennis officials but there's also the concept of personal responsibility. Might doesn't make right, I just don't accept that as a matter of principle.

Of course, if you have solid systems in place there's less room for abuse as you abstract the human element as much as possible.

Take basketball for example, imagine if Lebron's team had extra 10 seconds if he was in possession of the ball simply because he's Lebron. Would be real messy, how do you avoid the mess? Have a system that is not so dependent on "discretion of the umpire".

Basketball always comes to mind. I used to play in the top division in my country in my early twenties. The rules in basketball are very clear.

 

[octobrina10]

Everyone knows that honestly but it's fandom and that's why we're actually having these discussions in the first place about something that is very obvious (Nadal uses time wasting to his advantage, especially in high profile matches deep in the tourney).

Do you really believe that the difference between Shapo and Nadal here was just 2 seconds on average?

"Shot clock starts at the discretion of the umpire" yeah no sh1t Sherlock, that's why count often starts later for Nadal and he still takes more than the other guy.

I wonder why you discuss the time taken between points, because Shapo didn't complain about it.

 

[Technology Ruined Tennis]

@octobrina10
Why do you cheat the readers by making your post history private?

 

[mwym]

Nadal is more money. That is why Nadal is allowed to break this rule more than the others.

Money deified IS corruption.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Everyone knows that honestly but it's fandom and that's why we're actually having these discussions in the first place about something that is very obvious (Nadal uses time wasting to his advantage, especially in high profile matches deep in the tourney).

Do you really believe that the difference between Shapo and Nadal here was just 2 seconds on average?

"Shot clock starts at the discretion of the umpire" yeah no sh1t Sherlock, that's why count often starts later for Nadal and he still takes more than the other guy.

I’ve mellowed a bit on it, but I do think Nadal fans resort to some head-scratching language/semantic games to circumvent the obvious reality that he takes more time than he should, and likely more time than he’d be allowed to if he were a lesser player (that’s if the Nadal/Berlocq comparison is instructive).

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

So, you have no evidence.

if you are so sure, why not accept the bet?
I'd prefer coming forward with evidence once there's something on the line.

 

[octobrina10]

@octobrina10
Why do you cheat the readers by makingoctobrina10, 26.01.22 AT 8:55 AM

I didn't even know that it's possible to make a user's post history private.

 

[octobrina10]

if you are so sure, why not accept the bet?
I'd prefer coming forward with evidence once there's something on the line.

This is not a betting site.

 

[onefineday]

I don't buy that the players need longer because of the physicality of the game. It's a nice excuse, that's all. Sure, after a 40 shot rally, discretion is cool. But 25 seconds is plenty. The game should reward the fittest and fastest players.

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

This is not a betting site.

yeah my point was not the actual betting but to highlight your stupidity.

for starters, Rafa even got a warning from the umpire for time violation at some point (after about the 15th time), so you'd lose the bet on that alone.

did you even watch the match?

 

[intrepidish]

Trying to find the graphic, but the analytics site 538 reported that, in their study, Nadal was 216th fastest out of 218 recorded players.

As for whether Nadal is unduly targeted…tough to say, but I remember in 2013 Robbie Koenig bringing up the players with the most time violations on the year...Nadal had 24. Who had the most? Carlos Berlocq, with 34. Nadal played 26 more matches on the year. Not sure if the former was included in the aforementioned study.

Edit: here’s the article in question:

Why Some Tennis Matches Take Forever

Nine-time French Open champ Rafael Nadal is one of the slowest players of the last 25 years. Roger Federer is faster than average. Novak Djokovic is slower than…

fivethirtyeight.com

Neither 538 nor anyone else has access to the official time elapsed for serves from the ATP or ITF. The data simply aren't collected. We only see a handful of important points as they happen when the clock is filmed now and then.

Anytime you see someone talking about averages, it's based off their guess as to when a point should begin which misses the entire discussion we have been having.

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

Neither 538 nor anyone else has access to the official time elapsed for serves from the ATP or ITF. The data simply aren't collected. We only see a handful of important points as they happen when the clock is filmed now and then.

Anytime you see someone talking about averages, it's based off their guess as to when a point should begin which misses the entire discussion we have been having.

agree 100%.
and I'll ask you once again: why not have a beeper go off once the shot clock hits 0? it would end this discussion once and for all.

 

[intrepidish]

agree 100%.
and I'll ask you once again: why not have a beeper go off once the shot clock hits 0? it would end this discussion once and for all.

As has been stated several times, tennis isn't built on a culture like that of basketball and having a buzzer would strike most as being inappropriate.

And more importantly, the variation in start times is still built in, buzzer or no buzzer. That's because of the role of the umpire in deciding when a point has truly ended and when to begin counting down for another one,

Discretion is simply unavoidable.

 

[octobrina10]

I’ve mellowed a bit on it, but I do think Nadal fans resort to some head-scratching language/semantic games to circumvent the obvious reality that he takes more time than he should, and likely more time than he’d be allowed to if he were a lesser player (that’s if the Nadal/Berlocq comparison is instructive).

But the reality is that you you posted an article published in June of 2015 (i.e. about 3 years before the ATP Tour started to implement the serve clock. It's meaningless to use data from the pre-serve-clock era.

Post 110:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lity-vs-delusions.718218/page-3#post-16072672

 

[octobrina10]

yeah my point was not the actual betting but to highlight your stupidity.

for starters, Rafa even got a warning from the umpire for time violation at some point (after about the 15th time), so you'd lose the bet on that alone.

did you even watch the match?

Hmm. I have written repeatedly that the chair umpire gives a time violation warning, when the serve clock hits zero before a player begins the service motion.
Have you any evidence about those "15 times"?

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

As has been stated several times, tennis isn't built on a culture like that of basketball and having a buzzer would strike most as being inappropriate.

And more importantly, the variation in start times is still built in, buzzer or no buzzer. That's because of the role of the umpire in deciding when a point has truly ended and when to begin counting down for another one,

Discretion is simply unavoidable.

I get where you are coming from but ultimatively those discussion won't go away, just as seen in other sports as well.

just think about football, where the sense of traditionalism went as far as the sport not implementing hawkeye technology for almost 2 decades. and now everybody thinks it was a good idea.

traditionalism can be ok, but it should not hinder development imo, especially in a sport where margins and edges are continuing to shrink.