The tennis shot-clock: reality vs delusions

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

Hmm. I have written repeatedly that the chair umpire gives a time violation warning, when the serve clock hits zero before a player begins the service motion.
Have you any evidence about those "15 times"?

it's pointless discussing with you. people like interpidish might have a different opinion on many things, but at least a useful discussion can be had.
you on the other hand act like a 1st grader, and once somebody points out you were wrong, you just steer the discussion into another direction, even trying to convince people you didn't state anything wrong to begin with.

Nadal violated time rules repeatedly vs shapo, and was given a warning for it just once. deal with it.
if you still think I'm wrong, take the bet and I'll provide you evidence. otherwise please don't bother to reply, as I've seen the match and know what happened.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Neither 538 nor anyone else has access to the official time elapsed for serves from the ATP or ITF. The data simply aren't collected. We only see a handful of important points as they happen when the clock is filmed now and then.

Anytime you see someone talking about averages, it's based off their guess as to when a point should begin which misses the entire discussion we have been having.

There’s no uninterrupted database spanning large amounts of time, but there are snapshots. Sackman I believe went through matches and timed the points pretty scrupulously. I feel like averages are germane to the discussion if the “unofficial” starting point is at least consistent across players; over a big enough sample the aberrantly long points, which are not caused by player (in)activity (I.e crowd noise) should even out.

That it’s not been whittled down to an exact science, few would dispute. That Nadal and a select few others abuse the rule and aren’t really held accountable, though, is low-hanging fruit. It’s so obvious that even calling it a truism is verging on understatement.

 

[octobrina10]

it's pointless discussing with you. people like interpidish might have a different opinion on many things, but at least a useful discussion can be had.
you on the other hand act like a 1st grader, and once somebody points out you were wrong, you just steer the discussion into another direction, even trying to convince people you didn't state anything wrong to begin with.

Nadal violated time rules repeatedly vs shapo, and was given a warning for it just once. deal with it.
if you still think I'm wrong, take the bet and I'll provide you evidence. otherwise please don't bother to reply, as I've seen the match and know what happened.

1) I have talked all the time about the 25-second time limit between points & the serve clock.

2) You haven't posted any evidence that "Nadal violated time rules repeatedly vs shapo".

I reply to your posts because you mislead TTW readers.

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

1) I have talked all the time about the 25-second time limit between points & the serve clock.

2) You haven't posted any evidence that "Nadal violated time rules repeatedly vs shapo".

I reply to your posts because you mislead TTW readers.

and one more time not even reading the post you are replying to.

1) you said nadal didn't violate time rule. I said he did. as proof I even mentioned the warning he got for it. you still dispute this.
2) I have for the one time he got a warning. dig the rest up yourself, I'm not your slave worker. or put your signature on the line in a little bet I proposed so I get something out of it.

the one who is spreading false information is you. and if you don't stop questioning my morals, calling my posts misleading when I speak the truth and you can't handle it because the truth is that Nadal is a time violation cheater, I'll report you.

 

[octobrina10]

Anyone who is trying to drag Federer into this conversation need to go check the eye or brain doctor ASAP !!!
The most clean player on court, that has always care only about his game, and the game was always about his game.

Nadal is a well known player that trying to disrupt his opponent game, his rhythm, momentum, and use dirty tactics to get his opponent out of his comfort zone.
Nadal game most of the time is build to trying to squeeze as much UE from the opponent, and all the dirty tricks works wonders for him.
Federer is serving less than 15 sec, and has taken less than 10 MTO in his whole career, while 90% of the MTO was after he hit 36-37 and was obviously struggling with injuries.
Nothing alike Nadal and his probably 40-50+ MTO during his career. And when was the MTO taken.

Let me just remember few:

Also he is also cheating between first and second serve, as the rule is you should serve straight away. Not a single warning for his dirty tactics, as he often take at least 10-15 sec between first and second. And when he took 35-40 for the first serve, and 15-20 for the second, and few serve like that and his opponent are already mentally mad and taken out of their comfort zone, on top of that their momentum is screwed.
Yeah big time cheater, and that is extremely important.

Rules need to change. If the rally is 20+ shots, the clock should start after 5 sec. and the moment it hit 25, there should be automatic signal for time violation.
If the rally is below 20 shots, the clock should start straight away.

But then umpires won't be able to turn Nadal clocks 10-20sec. later as they are currently doing all the time.

Yet Tsitsipas and everyone else timer is started straight away, and Tsitsipas get 2 warning and first serve taken in 1 game, being on 26 sec and 27 sec - pathetic on all level.

I don't give a ***** if you are a fan of his or not. You should not defend such a cheating behavior and this is a well known pattern from him.
You should won the tennis to be 100% clean.
Otherwise you are biased blinded ....

Rafa basher, you posted videos from 2012 & 2013 (!) and, secondly, you don't even know how the serve clock works (implemented in 2018)!

 

[octobrina10]

and one more time not even reading the post you are replying to.

1) you said nadal didn't violate time rule. I said he did. as proof I even mentioned the warning he got for it. you still dispute this.
2) I have for the one time he got a warning. dig the rest up yourself, I'm not your slave worker. or put your signature on the line in a little bet I proposed so I get something out of it.

the one who is spreading false information is you. and if you don't stop questioning my morals, calling my posts misleading when I speak the truth and you can't handle it because the truth is that Nadal is a time violation cheater, I'll report you.

I struggle to find any truth in your posts.

 

[intrepidish]

There’s no uninterrupted database spanning large amounts of time, but there are snapshots. Sackman I believe went through matches and timed the points pretty scrupulously. I feel like averages are germane to the discussion if the “unofficial” starting point is at least consistent across players; over a big enough sample the aberrantly long points, which are not caused by player (in)activity (I.e crowd noise) should even out.

That it’s not been whittled down to an exact science, few would dispute. That Nadal and a select few others abuse the rule and aren’t really held accountable, though, is low-hanging fruit. It’s so obvious that even calling it a truism is verging on understatement.

There is no database whatsoever of official time stats so someone else 'timing scrupulously' doesn't mean anything in this context. As for who abuses what, you're assuming what needs to be proven.


.

 

[Russeljones]

There is no database whatsoever of official time stats so someone else 'timing scrupulously' doesn't mean anything in this context. As for who abuses what, you're assuming what needs to be proven.


.

Here's an idea: have a look at the Nadal - Djokovic matches 2010-2012. Compare official match time to points played. It's just not possible to excuse all the non-tennis.

 

[lordlosh]

Rafa basher, you posted videos from 2012 & 2013 (!) and, secondly, you don't even know how the serve clock works (implemented in 2018)!

Yeah Rafa blinded fanboy/girl. Typical. He didn't even try to explain the FACTS i give and try to put a solid argument. Of course you just can't, cause FACTs speaks true.

 

[tex123]

Here's an idea: have a look at the Nadal - Djokovic matches 2010-2012. Compare official match time to points played. It's just not possible to excuse all the non-tennis.

Today's date is 26-01-2022. We have a shot clock and there are no line judges. What do you want now?

 

[tex123]

Anyone who is trying to drag Federer into this conversation need to go check the eye or brain doctor ASAP !!!
The most clean player on court, that has always care only about his game, and the game was always about his game.

Nadal is a well known player that trying to disrupt his opponent game, his rhythm, momentum, and use dirty tactics to get his opponent out of his comfort zone.
Nadal game most of the time is build to trying to squeeze as much UE from the opponent, and all the dirty tricks works wonders for him.
Federer is serving less than 15 sec, and has taken less than 10 MTO in his whole career, while 90% of the MTO was after he hit 36-37 and was obviously struggling with injuries.
Nothing alike Nadal and his probably 40-50+ MTO during his career. And when was the MTO taken.

Let me just remember few:

Also he is also cheating between first and second serve, as the rule is you should serve straight away. Not a single warning for his dirty tactics, as he often take at least 10-15 sec between first and second. And when he took 35-40 for the first serve, and 15-20 for the second, and few serve like that and his opponent are already mentally mad and taken out of their comfort zone, on top of that their momentum is screwed.
Yeah big time cheater, and that is extremely important.

Rules need to change. If the rally is 20+ shots, the clock should start after 5 sec. and the moment it hit 25, there should be automatic signal for time violation.
If the rally is below 20 shots, the clock should start straight away.

But then umpires won't be able to turn Nadal clocks 10-20sec. later as they are currently doing all the time.

Yet Tsitsipas and everyone else timer is started straight away, and Tsitsipas get 2 warning and first serve taken in 1 game, being on 26 sec and 27 sec - pathetic on all level.

I don't give a ***** if you are a fan of his or not. You should not defend such a cheating behavior and this is a well known pattern from him.
You should won the tennis to be 100% clean.
Otherwise you are biased blinded ....

Squeaky clean Federer vs Davydenko
in 2010 when Nikolay Davydenko was crushing Federer. Suddenly, Federer needed a bathroom break. If you do that, the rules require that you actually go to the bathroom.
“When the sun comes from the side, the ball seems half the size and is just hard to hit,’’ Federer said after that match in 2010, explaining why he took that break. “I never take toilet breaks, but I thought, ‘Why not?’ I just hoped that with every minute it took, the sun would move another centimeter.’’

Squeaky clean Federer vs Cilic
It all happened in the second set Thursday. Federer won the first set 6-2 and was down 3-1, deuce, on Cilic’ serve in the second. That means: This was a huge point.

Cilic bounced the ball and got ready to serve and when he looked up, Federer was off to the side of the court, drying his grip with a towel. The umpire gave Federer a warning. And Federer came to the net and argued. . .in French.

Couch: Roger Federer's Stall Tactics Are Classic Gamesmanship

Roger Federer has played on tour for nearly a quarter of a century, and he has yet to have a hair out of place. So if you think he lost his composure Thursday in the French Open wh

www.outkick.com

 

[octobrina10]

Yeah Rafa blinded fanboy/girl. Typical. He didn't even try to explain the FACTS i give and try to put a solid argument. Of course you just can't, cause FACTs speaks true.

I couldn't find any facts related to the serve clock the ATP Tour started to implement in the summer of 2018.

 

[Russeljones]

Today's date is 26-01-2022. We have a shot clock and there are no line judges. What do you want now?

The continuous play rule to be observed.

 

[tex123]

The continuous play rule to be observed.

Talk to the ATP.

 

[lordlosh]

I couldn't find any facts related to the serve clock the ATP Tour started to implement in the summer of 2018.

Yeah like thw hundred clips that you reported last year, and couldn’t say a s.... right???
The clip i posted tells enough. Anyone who is not completely blind see that Nadal ia cheating big time and doing it on purpose and he is allowed to do so by the atp.

 

[Russeljones]

Talk to the ATP.

Haha, the old "you're not cheating if you're not caught" axiom.

 

[lordlosh]

Squeaky clean Federer vs Davydenko
in 2010 when Nikolay Davydenko was crushing Federer. Suddenly, Federer needed a bathroom break. If you do that, the rules require that you actually go to the bathroom.
“When the sun comes from the side, the ball seems half the size and is just hard to hit,’’ Federer said after that match in 2010, explaining why he took that break. “I never take toilet breaks, but I thought, ‘Why not?’ I just hoped that with every minute it took, the sun would move another centimeter.’’

Squeaky clean Federer vs Cilic
It all happened in the second set Thursday. Federer won the first set 6-2 and was down 3-1, deuce, on Cilic’ serve in the second. That means: This was a huge point.

Cilic bounced the ball and got ready to serve and when he looked up, Federer was off to the side of the court, drying his grip with a towel. The umpire gave Federer a warning. And Federer came to the net and argued. . .in French.

Couch: Roger Federer's Stall Tactics Are Classic Gamesmanship

Roger Federer has played on tour for nearly a quarter of a century, and he has yet to have a hair out of place. So if you think he lost his composure Thursday in the French Open wh

www.outkick.com

You mad???
Federer is the most cleanest player that has ever step on the court!!
What you are trying is not working...

 

[octobrina10]

Yeah like thw hundred clips that you reported last year, and couldn’t say a s.... right???
The clip i posted tells enough. Anyone who is not completely blind see that Nadal ia cheating big time and doing it on purpose and he is allowed to do so by the atp.

I have no idea what your first sentence mean.
You are cheating readers by posting 9 -10 years old videos.

 

[tex123]

Haha, the old "you're not cheating if you're not caught" axiom.

Haha yourself.

Certainly works for every aspect of your life. You're not supposed to fiddle with your car radio or anything else for that matter whilst driving. You're supposed to drive under the speed limit ALWAYS. Are you seriously claiming that you've never gone over the speed limit ever? If you do, I call that BS. The axiom you quoted applies to you.

 

[tex123]

You mad???
Federer is the most cleanest player that has ever step on the court!!
What you are trying is not working...

The proof is in the link quoted. It's only not working with you as facts presented are making you squirm in your chair.

 

[lordlosh]

The proof is in the link quoted. It's only not working with you as facts presented are making you squirm in your chair.

Link with nonsenses, that no one believes.

 

[lordlosh]

I have no idea what your first sentence mean.
You are cheating readers by posting 9 -10 years old videos.

How are last year videos 9-10 years old??
You quickly forget your crying to the mods laat year when i bring the records with hundred of Nadal cheating from 1 match only....

 

[Russeljones]

Haha yourself.

Certainly works for every aspect of your life. You're not supposed to fiddle with your car radio or anything else for that matter whilst driving. You're supposed to drive under the speed limit ALWAYS. Are you seriously claiming that you've never gone over the speed limit ever? If you do, I call that BS. The axiom you quoted applies to you.

No, it doesn't. Despite the desperate attempts at deflection, this thread is all about the continuous flaunting of a rule with the premeditated effect of breaking up the opponent's rhythm. Keep trying, though.

 

[tex123]

No, it doesn't. Despite the desperate attempts at deflection, this thread is all about the continuous flaunting of a rule with the premeditated effect of breaking up the opponent's rhythm. Keep trying, though.

Joke of the century! Applies to everyone but me. Look how squeaky clean Mr Jones is!

 

[tex123]

Link with nonsenses, that no one believes.

When facts are presented to you about your idol, they become "nonsenses". I see it how that works now.

 

[octobrina10]

How are last year videos 9-10 years old??
You quickly forget your crying to the mods laat year when i bring the records with hundred of Nadal cheating from 1 match only....

The videos you posted (post # 254) were uploaded to YouTube on:

1) Feb 11, 2014
2) Apr 23, 2013
3) Jan 17, 2012

 

[lordlosh]

The videos you posted (post # 254) were uploaded to YouTube on:

1) Feb 11, 2014
2) Apr 23, 2013
3) Jan 17, 2012

Yeah act you don't know what im talking about.
But cool lets play your game, yesterday alone Nadal cheated like 150x time on his serve, just like he has done it 2010, 2014, 2015, 2020, etc....

 

[octobrina10]

...
But cool lets play your game, yesterday alone Nadal cheated like 150x time on his serve, just like he has done it 2010, 2014, 2015, 2020, etc....

This is a blatant lie.

 

[lordlosh]

The videos you posted (post # 254) were uploaded to YouTube on:

1) Feb 11, 2014
2) Apr 23, 2013
3) Jan 17, 2012

Can you be quiet now, cause i have literally 100+ clips on his just in 2 matches from last year against Tsitsipas and Shapo on Clay, where he was always on 30+ on every single occasion when there was important point !!!

VID_20210609_182731

Watch "VID_20210609_182731" on Streamable.

streamable.com

VID_20201122_004258

Watch "VID_20201122_004258" on Streamable.

streamable.com

 

[zagor]

Can you be quiet now, cause i have literally 100+ clips on his just in 2 matches from last year against Tsitsipas and Shapo on Clay, where he was always on 30+ on every single occasion when there was important point !!!

VID_20210609_182731

Watch "VID_20210609_182731" on Streamable.

streamable.com

VID_20201122_004258

Watch "VID_20201122_004258" on Streamable.

streamable.com

Fabricated videos clearly.

 

[lordlosh]

When facts are presented to you about your idol, they become "nonsenses". I see it how that works now.

What facts blinded Nadal fanboys that doesn't have a single thing to defend his hero is a blatantly cheating, and yet is trying to bring Federer, who is the most cleanest player in a ridiculous discussion.

That article as well as the writer is pathetic. Firstable Federer received a time violating for that, which was pathetic, cause it was like 10 secs.
Anyway against Cilic, who was constantly over the time, and one time he was quick, the dumbest umpire in the world decide to warn Federer.
How many times that happen ? I don't ask how many times Federer was being warned, but was late on his opponent serve? Like 5 time in his 20+ years career?
You know how pathetic that argument is ?

Yet Nadal is doing that at least 20+ times in a single match.

As far as the toilet break, really ? 20+ years career and you find 1 toilet break from Federer, yeah dummy thanks for proving my point that Federer always focus on his game and doesn't give a ***** about who is playing. His game is build around himself.
He is always on the line to return, and he is always playing super fast, no more than 10sec. So nice try, but you are not doing yourself a favor, no matter how blinded biased you are.

 

[lordlosh]

Fabricated videos clearly.

Agree. Last year this 2 lowballers has no words when i bring like 20+ clips of Nadal in his match against Shapo alone.
Every single time the result was 15-30, 0-30 or BP, he was always on the 35+ side.
Not a single warning.
And you know what octobrina10 and the other deluded guys were doing? They got nothing to say, they reported my thread and mods PM me to tell me i'm right, and that this guy is reporting every single post of mine, cause he got no argument at all.
That's how low some of Nadal fans are ....

 

[octobrina10]

Can you be quiet now, cause i have literally 100+ clips on his just in 2 matches from last year against Tsitsipas and Shapo on Clay, where he was always on 30+ on every single occasion when there was important point !!!

VID_20210609_182731

Watch "VID_20210609_182731" on Streamable.

streamable.com

VID_20201122_004258

Watch "VID_20201122_004258" on Streamable.

streamable.com

The chair umpire controls the time on the court. He/she operates the serve clock. The 25-second countdown begins when the chair umpire calls the score & triggers the serve clock. The measurements you & your comrades make are meaningless.
TV commentators are constantly staring at the serve clock, the clock hitting zero wouldn't go unnoticed by them.

 

[lordlosh]

Yeah bro you are a lost case, not going to waste my time with a completely deluded blinboy who was asking for evidence, and then backtrack and start talking nonses who start the clock and when.
Your beloved player is a proven cheater, who should have been penalized through his whole career constantly and half of his title would have missed.
You are going on my ignore list, enjoy.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Agree. Last year this 2 lowballers has no words when i bring like 20+ clips of Nadal in his match against Shapo alone.
Every single time the result was 15-30, 0-30 or BP, he was always on the 35+ side.
Not a single warning.
And you know what octobrina10 and the other deluded guys were doing? They got nothing to say, they reported my thread and mods PM me to tell me i'm right, and that this guy is reporting every single post of mine, cause he got no argument at all.
That's how low some of Nadal fans are ....

the nadal ?!...... cheating ???

 

[octobrina10]

the nadal ?!...... cheating ???

No, Fed devotee, you are cheating readers.

 

[octobrina10]

Yeah bro you are a lost case, not going to waste my time with a completely deluded blinboy who was asking for evidence, and then backtrack and start talking nonses who start the clock and when.
Your beloved player is a proven cheater, who should have been penalized through his whole career constantly and half of his title would have missed.
You are going on my ignore list, enjoy.

You shouldn't waste your time trying to cheat the readers.
You are free to ignore me.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Yeah bro you are a lost case, not going to waste my time with a completely deluded blinboy who was asking for evidence, and then backtrack and start talking nonses who start the clock and when.

please don't: the nadal is already wasting our time... it's enough.

 

[octobrina10]

please don't: the nadal is already wasting our time... it's enough.

Other Rafa bashers should do the same: to stop wasting our time.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Other Rafa bashers should do the same: to stop wasting our time.

you obviously don't need me for that

 

[Zara]

I can see the umpires being intimidated by certain players and starting the serve clock maybe a bit later to accommodate the players.

 

[junior74]

In the supremely epic encounter between Nadal and Djokovic at AO 2012, more than seventy - 70! - minutes was time above the 20 seconds that was allowed between points at that time in slams. So it's very clear the shot clock was needed. However, I think it should AUTOMATICALLY start immediately after the point - NOT 15 seconds later, when the applaud has silenced. It's like the umpires think we so keenly await the announcement of the score and then look forward to watching 25 seconds of pre service routines.

After very special rallies, the umpire should have the chance to pause the shot clock, because sometimes the crowd goes bananas.

However, as we've seen from Stan, Federer and others - once you throw the ball into the air, the crowd shuts up. But some players seem to be unable to even bounce the ball until it's dead quiet

 

[PilotPete]

Players can become obsolete too. You can play a tennis video game. At least we won't have to put up with you lot "whinging". I'm sure you'll find something to complain about then too.

In that case, you don't exist.

 

[tex123]

What facts blinded Nadal fanboys that doesn't have a single thing to defend his hero is a blatantly cheating, and yet is trying to bring Federer, who is the most cleanest player in a ridiculous discussion.

That article as well as the writer is pathetic. Firstable Federer received a time violating for that, which was pathetic, cause it was like 10 secs.
Anyway against Cilic, who was constantly over the time, and one time he was quick, the dumbest umpire in the world decide to warn Federer.
How many times that happen ? I don't ask how many times Federer was being warned, but was late on his opponent serve? Like 5 time in his 20+ years career?
You know how pathetic that argument is ?

Yet Nadal is doing that at least 20+ times in a single match.

As far as the toilet break, really ? 20+ years career and you find 1 toilet break from Federer, yeah dummy thanks for proving my point that Federer always focus on his game and doesn't give a ***** about who is playing. His game is build around himself.
He is always on the line to return, and he is always playing super fast, no more than 10sec. So nice try, but you are not doing yourself a favor, no matter how blinded biased you are.

Blah blah blah blah.

You mentioned squeaky clean Federer. Facts tell you otherwise.

 

[jm1980]

In the supremely epic encounter between Nadal and Djokovic at AO 2012, more than seventy - 70! - minutes was time above the 20 seconds that was allowed between points at that time in slams. So it's very clear the shot clock was needed. However, I think it should AUTOMATICALLY start immediately after the point - NOT 15 seconds later, when the applaud has silenced. It's like the umpires think we so keenly await the announcement of the score and then look forward to watching 25 seconds of pre service routines.

After very special rallies, the umpire should have the chance to pause the shot clock, because sometimes the crowd goes bananas.

However, as we've seen from Stan, Federer and others - once you throw the ball into the air, the crowd shuts up. But some players seem to be unable to even bounce the ball until it's dead quiet

Yes! There's no reason not to start the countdown immediately. Unless it was truly a crazy point, the crowd noise dies down in a few seconds

Like I timed in the Mannarino/Nadal TB, at 8-8 Nadal took 36 seconds to serve after the previous ball was called out. It doesn't matter if he was within the shot clock, because the rule is completely pointless if he was still within the limit somehow

 

[jm1980]

Yes, it's impossible that Rafa started his service motion 4 seconds after the serve clock hit zero and TV commentators did not notice it.

LMAO is that your defense? He couldn't have cheated because he wasn't caught by the broadcast crew?

The broadcasters are trying to show the match, not Nadal's time violations. Showing a shot of the clock expiring and then abruptly cutting back to Nadal would be jarring to viewers.

Of course this task has also been made more difficult since they moved the serve clock from behind the players to the sides of the court, so it's impossible to see the countdown from most angles they usually show the match. I wonder why

 

[TheFifthSet]

There is no database whatsoever of official time stats so someone else 'timing scrupulously' doesn't mean anything in this context. As for who abuses what, you're assuming what needs to be proven.

Absolutely zero needs to be proven, though. We’re a handful of people on the internet. He won’t get penalized for our words. I’m under no illusion that the standard of proof offered here would fly in some hypothetical court of tennis law.

I believe Sackman charted the time between points with great care, with a uniform standard applied to all players, and Nadal was 216th out of 218. Of the two slower players, one has played less than 40 matches on tour, and the other, Massu, has retired and was also one of the tour-leaders for time violations. This confirms my own observations, and Nadal’s status as a serial code violator, pretty neatly.

That he takes excessive time between points is obvious. There’s a large element of subjectivity, yes…but if it can’t be acknowledged that’s enough for me to confirm the convo is too steeped in contrarianism and pedantry to be productive.

Mind you, I think there are perfectly valid ways to defend Nadal. He can’t reasonably be expected to self-umpire, so holding this inconvenient truth against him seems unfair. But…you know….***gestures vaguely***

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

I struggle to find any truth in your posts.

it's because you can't handle the truth that nadal was cheating.

or do you still deny the basic fact he even got a warning for it by the umpire?

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

another idea:

why not make the ATP at least somewhat useful?

After some more thinking this through, I came to the conclusion that this is the type of rule that should ultimatively be down to players to decide upon.

so why not have the ATP tour players have a vote on it? if the majority is happy with the current handling of the situation, nothing has to be changed and people like Shapo need to suck it up. if the majority of players demand a a clear handling, it might be time to say goodbye to one more dumb tradition in tennis and let the beeper do it's job.

 

[Rorano_Fedalovic]

Other Rafa bashers should do the same: to stop wasting our time.

in case you still didn't get it; I am not bashing Rafa, though I think his gamesmanship is nasty and unworthy of the champion he is.

my beef is mostly with the simpin' umpires who do not have the balls to enforce rules.

it's time for you to grow up. the world ain't black and white, it ain't pro rafa or anti- rafa, at least not with me.

I'm pro tennis and anti time wasting.