The three points the lost Djokovic the match

All we can derive from this is that there is finally one younger dude who can give Djokovic something to think about on important points which just wasn't happening for several years.
 
TheNachoMan said:
Thiem and Djokovic have had several bangers that could’ve gone either way.
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True, but this Wimb F pretty much illustrated the difference between someone like Thiem and someone like Carlos: Thiem let Djokovic off the hook on the AO F when he was there for the taking, Carlos didn't at this Wimb.
 
Djok struggle in first game of first set on his own serve but still won the first set easily 6-1

On other hand he was up 3-0 in 2nd set TB but lost the TB
 
TheNachoMan said:
Thiem and Djokovic have had several bangers that could’ve gone either way.
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Thiem was the only player i trust against djokovic in tiebreaks last 5 years. He defeated good playing Nadal twice only due to tiebreaks in 2020:mad:
Probably he was the only player Djokovic fears in tiebreaks last few years. Had amazing matches against Nadal and Djokovic.
 
Fedal fans after years of Djoker fans dismissing them for talking about what ifs, underperformances, and key points in losses:


loki-yes.gif
 
mike danny said:
True, but this Wimb F pretty much illustrated the difference between someone like Thiem and someone like Carlos: Thiem let Djokovic off the hook on the AO F when he was there for the taking, Carlos didn't at this Wimb.
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I don't think so. Amazing win by Alcaraz specially on grass but still beating Djokovic at AO is even more difficult and more importantly 2020 Djokovic was atleast much better mover than this 2023 Djokovic. As a result Alcaraz managed to win but Thiem is still underrated and played against better Djokovic imo.

Djokovic still doesn't lose at AO despite AO has much more competition than Wimbledon.
 
Phenomenal said:
I don't think so. Amazing win by Alcaraz specially on grass but still beating Djokovic at AO is even more difficult and more importantly 2020 Djokovic was atleast much better mover than this 2023 Djokovic. As a result Alcaraz managed to win but Thiem is still underrated and played against better Djokovic imo.

Djokovic still doesn't lose at AO despite AO has much more competition than Wimbledon.
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Djokovic was still having an off day but Thiem didn't go for the jugular.
 
The 1st serve percentage dropping like that after the 1st set was shocking indeed. Once he is in tune with his serve like that from the start of a match, he normally has that shot firing the entire match. Just strange how that serve went awol (he was at 56% for most the 2nd set) and how his overall level dropped as well after that set.
 
As soon as the wind on Centre Court got less (4th set) Novaks level got better i think. But it did not stay that way, 5th set got more windy again. It blunted a key element of his game, precision (serve, baseline strokes). I'd like to see these 2 battling indoors in Milan end of year. BTW, great match with lots of suspense and drama. Carlos deserves the win, fearless playing.
 
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jl809 said:
If we’re going to do this, we should talk about the points that lost Hurkacz the 4R match:

Set 1: they go to a tiebreak, in which Hurkacz is up 6-3 with 3 SPs

  • 6-3: Djokovic misses his 1st serve. 87 mph 2nd serve, Hurkacz returns on the BH (with pretty standard length and power) crosscourt back at Djoker. Djoker hits a standard BH crosscourt back towards HH, and HH dumps a slice in the net
(6-4 Djoker hits an unreturned 1st serve out wide, good stuff)
  • 6-5 HH is serving; he serves a big 1st serve, fairly central; Djokovic's return is chipped, slow and airy, landing short (between the net and the service box line, right of the centre for HH). It’s begging to be put away for a winner. HH runs forward to it and whacks his forehand hard into the net from 3 yards away
(Btw, at 6-6, HH hits a regulation BH CC - off a neutral CC BH slice from Djoker - into the net in the 7th shot of the rally to give Djoker SP.
At SP to Djoker, Djoker misses his 1st serve, then HH hits a 2nd serve return 3 yards long off a crappy non-kicking 82mph serve from Djoker to give Djoker the set)

Set 2: Hurkacz has 2 serve points at 5-4 in the TB

  • 5-4: he misses his 1st serve, then after Djoker returns his 2nd serve with a short, very attackable CC medium pace BH (another poor return by his standards), Hurkacz dumps his approach shot into the net trying to go DTL with the BH.

  • At 5-5 he nails a 1st serve, and Djoker does well to return the ball at all; but it's loopy, slow and airy, and lands very short (inside the service box). Again, very attackable. HH has so much time that he runs round his FH, but he smashes it right at Djokovic, who makes him hit a volley which he loops up for an easy passing shot for Djoker

If HH wins these points he wins the match in straight sets :notworthy:
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Agreed, there are thin margins, especially on grass. Djokovic was living on the edge in these matches and was bound to not come out on top sooner or later. HH was a few points away from winning that match for sure. One could even argue the same for the Sinner match to a lesser extent.
 
The meltdown started with the serve time violation. Plus this match reminded everyone that Nole's villain status never went away.
 
ForehandCross said:
Actually no. If we are going to try this direction, Djokovic was actually given a full fledged 1 set head start because Alcaraz started very timidly and was very erratic. Djokovic in sets 2-5 had to push through so many service games, if Alcaraz played at the same level as the other sets, the match might have been ever more tight for Djokovic.

Once Alacaraz started playing his level, it really felt he was the one with advantage. Even when Djokovic actually fought decently for the third, Carlos won 6-1.
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I don't think Alcaraz played as bad as the scoreline indicated in the first set. He was a bit nervous and timid in moments, but part of that was Djokovic getting 76% of first serves in and actually playing decisive tennis himself. Whether it was nerves, fatigue, or just an inability to sustain his level, I think he started fading just as Alcaraz starting gaining confidence and improving his play.
Icsa said:
The meltdown started with the serve time violation. Plus this match reminded everyone that Nole's villain status never went away.
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That big fall in the second set when he landed on his hip with the left leg twisted up probably didn't help either.
 
Novak lost this match mostly because of 2 missed backhands in tiebreak. When he returned Alcaraz's serve at 6-5 in tiebreak, i really thought Novak had him. But then, very uncharacteristically, Novak dumps two ordinary, regular backhands into the net and the momentum changed. Alcaraz started to believe, Novak fell.
 
I agree with OP, but still cant understand how bad Novak served throughout the whole match. Two aces for a 5 set, almost 5 hour match on grass. How? This was probably his worst ever serving perfomance on grass. Even when puting 1st serve in, he was getting no advantage with it. Just horible.
Alcaraz deserved to win, but if Novak didnt make those stupid mistakes at the start of the 5th or end of 2nd set, he would have won.
Hope this outcome doesnt change history of tennis, and records book.
 
One said:
Hope this outcome doesnt change history of tennis, and records book.
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It absolutely does. It prevents Novak from surpassing 400 weeks at number 1, prevents him from tying Fed with 8 Wimbledon titles and 5 in a row, and all but ensures that Alcaraz will rack up at least a couple more months at number 1 along with getting him his first Wimbledon at just the age of 20. This had massive historical implications, and perhaps the weight of all of that was a bit much for Novak again (not quite as bad as the CYGS in 2021 but still a lot of pressure). I kind of had the feeling Novak was struggling to cope with all that pressure with some of his tweets and things with eating the grass before the tournament and saying the "it ain't happening yet" stuff. I don't know. Either way, some of that pressure is gone but there's a new pressure to deal with: he now needs to avenge the loss at their next meeting or the match up dynamics will shift further and the seeds of doubt will be growing in his head.
 
NoleFam said:
The 1st serve percentage dropping like that after the 1st set was shocking indeed. Once he is in tune with his serve like that from the start of a match, he normally has that shot firing the entire match. Just strange how that serve went awol (he was at 56% for most the 2nd set) and how his overall level dropped as well after that set.
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It seemed to start dropping after he was given a time violation in the 2nd set. I speculate that it impacted his serve rhythm
 
Cortana said:
Can someone point out some crucial mistakes from Alcaraz?
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Plenty. The first set was closer than it looks on the scorecard. Alcaraz had his chances even then. He let Djokovic run with it for a while however. He donated the break back to Djokovic in set 2 resulting in A tiebreak.

In fourth and fifth sets, he had break points early on. Didn't capitalise on them and it costed the fourth. It almost costed him the match but then he made Nole play one more awkward ball to save a break point; the rest is history.

But no those two Djokovic points decided the match. Yeah.
 
FeroBango said:
Plenty. The first set was closer than it looks on the scorecard. Alcaraz had his chances even then. He let Djokovic run with it for a while however. He donated the break back to Djokovic in set 2 resulting in A tiebreak.

In fourth and fifth sets, he had break points early on. Didn't capitalise on them and it costed the fourth. It almost costed him the match but then he made Nole play one more awkward ball to save a break point; the rest is history.

But no those two Djokovic points decided the match. Yeah.
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the world cup final was 120 minutes long, but it was one save from emiliano martinez in the last minute that was the main reason argentina won.

so of course those 2 backhand errors and that error on break point in the 5th are the main reason djokovic lost.
 
I find this revision of what happened in the match pretty annoying, because we've seen time and time again as players actually choke against Djokovic in TBs after playing solidly in the set, sometimes playing beter overall (holding easier) than Novak, only to UError themselves out of contention in a TB. What do we hear when this happens? "Djokovic is the king of TBs", "unmatched mental strength", "he's just a different beast in TBs".

Now we get a situation where an average at best Djokovic is clearly struggling in the set but manages to push it to the TB thanks to Alcaraz making nervy errors in key moments. He plays the first 3 points above his average level in the set, and gets the lead. But in the next few points because he made some mistakes, just like he often did in that set before the TB, he choked?

"He hit that BH into the net". Yeah, and he hit a DF in the TB against Hurkacz. Hit a DF in the TB against Tsitsipas in the AO final. I don't recall there being a lot of conversations about how Novak choked then. Probably because that woud lead to questions about what his opponents must've done to lose.
What happened was that the guy on the other side of the net didn't turn into an error-machine in a TB against Djokovic. Novak had to actually play while feeling the pressure of his opponent staying with him, and for once Novak's poor mistakes did have an effect on the outcome of the set. It wasn't a choke, because Alcaraz was overall the better player in the 2nd set. But it was a rude awakening to those fans who watched Djokovic run through the players who would crumble in TBs, and explained all those wins solely by Novak's brilliance. Now Novak was faced with an opponent who showed unlikely composure and played well in the TB, Novak lost, and all of a sudden, no words about Novak's brilliance in TBs to be found. Although he actually qbossed in the first points to get to the 3-0 lead, he didn't DF, and even made it to set points. Go gather.
 
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The Fedfather said:
I find this revision of what happened in the match pretty annoying, because we've seen time and time again as players actually choke against Djokovic in TBs after playing solidly in the set, sometimes playing beter overall (holding easier) than Novak, only to UError themselves out of contention in a TB. What do we hear when this happens? "Djokovic is the king of TBs", "unmatched mental strength", "he's just a different beast in TBs".

Now we get a situation where an average at best Djokovic is clearly struggling in the set but manages to push it to the TB thanks to Alcaraz making nervy errors in key moments. He playes the first 3 points above his average level in the set, and gets the lead. But in the next few points because he made some mistakes, just like he often did in that set before the TB, he choked?

"He hit that BH into the net". Yeah, and he hit a DF in the TB against Hurkacz. Hit a DF in the TB against Tsitsipas in the AO final. I don't recall there being a lot of conversations about how Novak choked then. Probably because that woud lead to questions about what his opponents must've done to lose.
What happened was that the guy on the other side of the net didn't turn into an error-machine in a TB against Djokovic. Novak had to actually play while feeling the pressure of his opponent staying with him, and for once Novak's poor mistakes did have an effect on the outcome of the set. It wasn't a choke, because Alcaraz was overall the better player in the 2nd set. But it was a rude awakening to those fans who watched Djokovic run through the players who would crumble in TBs, and explained all those wins solely by Novak's brilliance. Now Novak was faced with an opponent who showed unlikely composure and played well in the TB, Novak lost, and all of a sudden, no words about Novak's brilliance in TBs to be found. Although he actually qbossed in the first points to get to the 3-0 lead, he didn't DF, and even made it to set points. Go gather.
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The Fedfather spitting some uncomfortable truths yet again. I did think he was there for the taking when he played Hurkacz, Carlos made sure he finished the job.
 
The Fedfather said:
I find this revision of what happened in the match pretty annoying, because we've seen time and time again as players actually choke against Djokovic in TBs after playing solidly in the set, sometimes playing beter overall (holding easier) than Novak, only to UError themselves out of contention in a TB. What do we hear when this happens? "Djokovic is the king of TBs", "unmatched mental strength", "he's just a different beast in TBs".

Now we get a situation where an average at best Djokovic is clearly struggling in the set but manages to push it to the TB thanks to Alcaraz making nervy errors in key moments. He plays the first 3 points above his average level in the set, and gets the lead. But in the next few points because he made some mistakes, just like he often did in that set before the TB, he choked?

"He hit that BH into the net". Yeah, and he hit a DF in the TB against Hurkacz. Hit a DF in the TB against Tsitsipas in the AO final. I don't recall there being a lot of conversations about how Novak choked then. Probably because that woud lead to questions about what his opponents must've done to lose.
What happened was that the guy on the other side of the net didn't turn into an error-machine in a TB against Djokovic. Novak had to actually play while feeling the pressure of his opponent staying with him, and for once Novak's poor mistakes did have an effect on the outcome of the set. It wasn't a choke, because Alcaraz was overall the better player in the 2nd set. But it was a rude awakening to those fans who watched Djokovic run through the players who would crumble in TBs, and explained all those wins solely by Novak's brilliance. Now Novak was faced with an opponent who showed unlikely composure and played well in the TB, Novak lost, and all of a sudden, no words about Novak's brilliance in TBs to be found. Although he actually qbossed in the first points to get to the 3-0 lead, he didn't DF, and even made it to set points. Go gather.
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It's not really revisionism. Novak said himself said that those back to back routine backhand misses in the TB were regrettable and could've changed the match. Alcaraz said that he might've lost in straight sets had he lost that TB. Novak choked on those two points. He did this in other TBs at Wimbledon but got away with it due to opponents choking more than he did. His TB brilliance was on display at RG, but not at Wimbledon. DFs aren't the only means of choking in a TB. I would say that a guy widely considered to have an ATG backhand missing two routine backhands in a row while trying to close out a TB, totally unforced, is a momentary lapse that I would consider choking due to nerves. If Djokovic had won the TB and the match, we could analyze the various break points and other moments where Carlos choked, because he did in various moments throughout the match, but none were as critical as set point in a TB which would've given one of them a 2-0 lead.
 
FeroBango said:
But no those two Djokovic points decided the match. Yeah.
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Did you listen to Alcaraz's interview? He said that he might've lost in straight sets had he lost that TB. Winning the TB is what gave him the confidence that he could win the match, and you saw him play more freely and with more confidence with fewer mistakes after that pivotal moment.
 
JasonZ said:
the world cup final was 120 minutes long, but it was one save from emiliano martinez in the last minute that was the main reason argentina won.

so of course those 2 backhand errors and that error on break point in the 5th are the main reason djokovic lost.
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Great idea comparing football and tennis lol, specially simce football is a time based sport and tennis isnt.
 
The Fedfather said:
I find this revision of what happened in the match pretty annoying, because we've seen time and time again as players actually choke against Djokovic in TBs after playing solidly in the set, sometimes playing beter overall (holding easier) than Novak, only to UError themselves out of contention in a TB. What do we hear when this happens? "Djokovic is the king of TBs", "unmatched mental strength", "he's just a different beast in TBs".

Now we get a situation where an average at best Djokovic is clearly struggling in the set but manages to push it to the TB thanks to Alcaraz making nervy errors in key moments. He plays the first 3 points above his average level in the set, and gets the lead. But in the next few points because he made some mistakes, just like he often did in that set before the TB, he choked?

"He hit that BH into the net". Yeah, and he hit a DF in the TB against Hurkacz. Hit a DF in the TB against Tsitsipas in the AO final. I don't recall there being a lot of conversations about how Novak choked then. Probably because that woud lead to questions about what his opponents must've done to lose.
What happened was that the guy on the other side of the net didn't turn into an error-machine in a TB against Djokovic. Novak had to actually play while feeling the pressure of his opponent staying with him, and for once Novak's poor mistakes did have an effect on the outcome of the set. It wasn't a choke, because Alcaraz was overall the better player in the 2nd set. But it was a rude awakening to those fans who watched Djokovic run through the players who would crumble in TBs, and explained all those wins solely by Novak's brilliance. Now Novak was faced with an opponent who showed unlikely composure and played well in the TB, Novak lost, and all of a sudden, no words about Novak's brilliance in TBs to be found. Although he actually qbossed in the first points to get to the 3-0 lead, he didn't DF, and even made it to set points. Go gather.
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That TB from Djokovic vs Tsitsipas in AO 2023 final was really bad.
Only Tsitsipas was determined to break the record of worst TB performance evah and he did!
 
Tweener said:
Did you listen to Alcaraz's interview? He said that he might've lost in straight sets had he lost that TB. Winning the TB is what gave him the confidence that he could win the match, and you saw him play more freely and with more confidence with fewer mistakes after that pivotal moment.
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Correct. I don't disagree with you. It's just that it was a long match in tricky conditions that ebbed and flowed, with each other benefiting from the lapses of the other amidst fairly regular moments of extraordinary tennis.

It wasn't just those two points alone that were crucial to the outcome is what I'm saying, as Alcaraz could have wrapped the set up without needing the TB.

Alcaraz was right in his assessment of the second set's importance and you're right as well. But I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
 
Tweener said:
It's not really revisionism. Novak said himself said that those back to back routine backhand misses in the TB were regrettable and could've changed the match. Alcaraz said that he might've lost in straight sets had he lost that TB. Novak choked on those two points. He did this in other TBs at Wimbledon but got away with it due to opponents choking more than he did. His TB brilliance was on display at RG, but not at Wimbledon. DFs aren't the only means of choking in a TB. I would say that a guy widely considered to have an ATG backhand missing two routine backhands in a row while trying to close out a TB, totally unforced, is a momentary lapse that I would consider choking due to nerves. If Djokovic had won the TB and the match, we could analyze the various break points and other moments where Carlos choked, because he did in various moments throughout the match, but none were as critical as set point in a TB which would've given one of them a 2-0 lead.
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And he got away with making mistakes in other TBs for that same reason. And that's why I say it's revisionism. Because when Novak was getting away with it, he was winning despite making a silly error or two, he kept improving his TB record, the winning streak and all, the focus of the conversation was what? How amazing Djokovic is at playing TBs. But now that he's made a couple mistakes and his opponent played well enough to capitalize, now we're going to focus on how badly he choked?

Following this logic, do we say that every time Novak made a poor error in a TB before, like a DF or an UE, he choked? And if we do say that, and we count how many times that happened, will we realize that he's actually a regular choker, and that his amazing TB record this season was due to his opponents being worse chokers than him? I'd wager that that's not how you'd like it to be framed.

we could analyze the various break points and other moments where Carlos choked, because he did in various moments throughout the match, but none were as critical as set point in a TB
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The reason you call those specific TB errors by Novak 'critical' is that he ended up losing. I could say it was critical when Alacaraz made an UE on the 1st point of the TB, giving his opponent the advantage and giving up the TB momentum right away. Who's to say that if Carlitos didn't put himself under additional pressure to start, that Novak would even be able to get into a position to get ahead in the TB at all?

I'll repeat again, in the 2nd set of the Wimbledon final Djokovic overall did not play well. Alcaraz was the better player - better on both return and serve. So for Djokovic to win in the TB, he needed to raise his level and stay consistent with that higher level. Him not doing so is not a choke. He just underperformed in the set. Which he often does, just with no consequences to his results. And what we're seeing here is how some people became accustomed to Novak not playing well and winning regardless. That's why they struggle to accept that what happened there was just Novak's common below-par level encountering a good opponent that didn't fold under pressure.
 
The Fedfather said:
And he got away with making mistakes in other TBs for that same reason. And that's why I say it's revisionism. Because when Novak was getting away with it, he was winning despite making a silly error or two, he kept improving his TB record, the winning streak and all, the focus of the conversation was what? How amazing Djokovic is at playing TBs. But now that he's made a couple mistakes and his opponent played well enough to capitalize, now we're going to focus on how badly he choked?

Following this logic, do we say that every time Novak made a poor error in a TB before, like a DF or an UE, he choked? And if we do say that, and we count how many times that happened, will we realize that he's actually a regular choker, and that his amazing TB record this season was due to his opponents being worse chokers than him? I'd wager that that's not how you'd like it to be framed.


The reason you call those specific TB errors by Novak 'critical' is that he ended up losing. I could say it was critical when Alacaraz made an UE on the 1st point of the TB, giving his opponent the advantage and giving up the TB momentum right away. Who's to say that if Carlitos didn't put himself under additional pressure to start, that Novak would even be able to get into a position to get ahead in the TB at all?

I'll repeat again, in the 2nd set of the Wimbledon final Djokovic overall did not play well. Alcaraz was the better player - better on both return and serve. So for Djokovic to win in the TB, he needed to raise his level and stay consistent with that higher level. Him not doing so is not a choke. He just underperformed in the set. Which he often does, just with no consequences to his results. And what we're seeing here is how some people became accustomed to Novak not playing well and winning regardless. That's why they struggle to accept that what happened there was just Novak's common below-par level encountering a good opponent that didn't fold under pressure.
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I never said his TB steak was due to his playing amazing in all TBs. I've not been convinced that some of the TBs he won at Wimbledon were due to anything more than his opponents choking more than he did. I'm not out to frame his TB record as anything other than an impressive streak riddled with some subpar performances on his end. The streak at RG was impressive, however, which is why I noted that specifically.

As I mentioned in my original post, I credit Carlos for being mentally tough and handling the occasion better than Djokovic did (and for his insane variety and overall quality as a player). I think it was somewhat surprising that he held up mentally better than Djokovic in this match given their experience levels coming into it, but I think you're mistaking me for some kind of biased fan of a particular guy here. As I also originally said, both guys were overall at a similar level and Carlos was simply a bit more solid in some tight moments. The margins were extremely slim. Carlos out Djoker'd the Djoker by not doing anything spectacular in those set points, he simply got the ball back in play and let his opponent mess it up. Then he came up with the goods on an impressive return on his own set point.

The overall quality of the match wasn't as good as other 5 set thrillers I've watched. Both guys had ebbs and flows, ups and downs. It wasn't a statement victory or a decisive victory in my opinion, simply an impressive one for such a young player. Had Djokovic won the TB and the match, I'd probably muse about the many break points that Carlos squandered by being tight (and specifically if he had missed easy shots on his own set points only to lose those sets).

Regarding TB errors in general, an occasional miss or DF isn't indicative of choking per se. But missing routine shots on what is considered to be one of your strongest shots (BH in this case) twice in a row on easy rally balls when holding a set point is a choke in my eyes. You may see if differently.
 
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