The Top 20 has only one player over age 27

[robthai]

@Razer is there

@Razer is a good poster even though we have many disagreements. As for @UnderratedSlam due to his ego, he will never admit he was wrong about great age shift theory.

 

[The Guru]

Eh. Our criteria for evaluating players differs quite a lot nonetheless (which is fine).

Likewise. I remember reading about some of his feats as a kid, dumbfounded that anyone could believe there was a greater player. It’s mostly smoke and mirrors. He was the best and most valuable version of himself when he was playing more like Thurmond or Russell. Still one of the top talents to play the game and a Top 10 player (or thereabouts). But no GOAT-level offensive player can spearhead so many mediocre offences at that high a usage and still keep their GOAT cred. Something’s gotta give.

Taylor deconstructs Wilt better than I can:

Backpicks GOAT: #9 Wilt Chamberlain

Note: This is the first profile in an historical series on the most valuable NBA careers of all-time. Key stats and trends Overrated offensively (scoring blindness) – didn’t create and score…

thinkingbasketball.net

I think he’s also got a more recent vid on him.

But that’s the thing, the “stacking” came at the expense of roster construction. Sure just listing his great teammates makes it seem like he rode off like a bandit from favourable situation to favourable situation, but it wasn’t quite the case…unless we’re using the ‘10 Cavs team as the baseline. Which I don’t think is fair.

And should probably have won closer to 5. Don’t see the same argument for LeBron. 4 fits with his production, surrounding talent and landscape of the league.

Demanded a trade and seems to have dearly regretted it. The grass wasn’t greener and he has yet to match his playoff production anywhere else. They flourished together.

Love’s depression wasn’t because of LeBron man, come on that’s a pretty flippant way of viewing his mental health issues. Love had almost nothing but positive things to say about his time there alongside Bron.

And Duncan “adapted” by seeing his load and role reduced. Sure, it was graceful on his part….but he wasn’t even the fulcrum of the offence after around ‘08. That they remained a dominant team is a testament to both him and his supporting cast, as Kralingen touched on. For the last few years I’d hesitate to even call them that. They won 67 games in his final year as a role player and 61 without him.

I don’t see LeBron being too excited about leaving a Spurs-like system and culture after being drafted into it. And even Duncan wasn’t all-in the whole time! He almost left for Orlando in 2000.

Not sure that it is all we've been discussing is one (fairly small) part of my criteria. I'm just arguing for its relevance and that considering its relevance it reflects poorly for LeBron.

A fellow Taylor fan nice to see. Much of my basketball knowledge development I owe to him. He's fantastic.

I agree but that's also ultimately on LeBron when he's the one making a lot of those personnel decisions.

Sure again I don't see how that saves him from the cancer label. Shaq won 4 too he's still a cancer.

Yes but LeBron constantly undermined and minimized him and helped propagate the media's unrelenting assault on him. Hard to speculate on this but if Love stays in Minnesota I doubt we ever hear about it. I believe Lebron is a selfish, entitled, insecure, attention-seeking, narrative-controlling, ego-maniac. When things go wrong he points the finger. At coaches, teammates, ownership, it doesn't matter. But if things go right...he is the last one to give credit to his teammates. It's not uncommon for superstars to be that way in fact nowadays most of them are that way but being in a locker room with people like that is not fun.

The point wasn't that Duncan was providing the same value as 2003 in all his different roles. I'm saying he was willing to do whatever he needed for the benefit of his team and he fit into different systems and team constructions in a way that LeBron has never proved that he can and that is just obviously true.

There would be no Spurs system if LeBron was there. Can you imagine trying to get LeBron to buy into the 14 Spurs system lol. It'd be impossible. I think you have that backwards I think it was McGrady who wanted to go to SA not the other way around. Plus TD was in his third year in 00 wouldnt he be under contract.

 

[NeutralFan]

@Razer is a good poster even though we have many disagreements. As for @UnderratedSlam due to his ego, he will never admit he was wrong about great age shift theory.

GAS is true but it doesn't mean you're a Better player at 36-38 than you were at 25-26 and yeah @Razer is a very good poster and very objective. He was a Fed fan before.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Not sure that it is all we've been discussing is one (fairly small) part of my criteria. I'm just arguing for its relevance and that considering its relevance it reflects poorly for LeBron.

A fellow Taylor fan nice to see. Much of my basketball knowledge development I owe to him. He's fantastic.

I agree but that's also ultimately on LeBron when he's the one making a lot of those personnel decisions.

Sure again I don't see how that saves him from the cancer label. Shaq won 4 too he's still a cancer.

Yes but LeBron constantly undermined and minimized him and helped propagate the media's unrelenting assault on him. Hard to speculate on this but if Love stays in Minnesota I doubt we ever hear about it. I believe Lebron is a selfish, insecure, attention-seeking, narrative-controlling, ego-maniac. When things go wrong he points the finger. At coaches, teammates, ownership, it doesn't matter. But if things go right...he is the last one to give credit to his teammates. It's not uncommon for superstars to be that way in fact nowadays most of them are that way but being in a locker room with people like that is not fun.

The point wasn't that Duncan was providing the same value as 2003 in all his different roles. I'm saying he was willing to do whatever he needed for the benefit of his team and he fit into different systems and team constructions in a way that LeBron has never proved that he can and that is just obviously true.

There would be no Spurs system if LeBron was there. Can you imagine trying to get LeBron to buy into the 14 Spurs system lol. It'd be impossible. I think you have that backwards I think it was McGrady who wanted to go to SA not the other way around. Plus TD was in his third year in 00 wouldnt he be under contract.

Okay we’re defo at an impasse regarding LeBron lol. I think you could stand to be more charitable in most of these instances but fair enough, we’re not budging.

And yes, Duncan was fairly close to dashing in ‘00:

https://www.si.com/nba/magic/news/orlando-tim-duncan-san-antonio-spurs-grant-hill-free-agency-rumors-history-doc-rivers

I LOVE that Doc was the one that prevented it. Adds credence to my opinion that he’s the most destructive (not worst, but most destructive) coach in modern NBA history. Amazing that one man can accomplish so little with so much talent.

 

[The Guru]

This just seems glaringly obvious to me. I feel like what I'm doing is asking if you'd rather have Brady or Rodgers in your locker room and getting the response that Rodgers is an amazing quarterback. No ****. That's not what's in contention here. Anyone in their right mind would recognize that all things being equal Brady is the leader you want because he provides tremendous value in that capacity while Rodgers is a negative. Same thing is obviously true for LeBron and Timmy.

 

[The Guru]

Okay we’re defo at an impasse regarding LeBron lol. I think you could stand to be more charitable in most of these instances but fair enough, we’re not budging.

And yes, Duncan was fairly close to dashing in ‘00:

https://www.si.com/nba/magic/news/orlando-tim-duncan-san-antonio-spurs-grant-hill-free-agency-rumors-history-doc-rivers

I LOVE that Doc was the one that prevented it. Adds credence to my opinion that he’s the most destructive (not worst, but most destructive) coach in modern NBA history. Amazing that one man can accomplish so little with so much talent.

KG and Thibs should get credited on his HOF bust. They are his entire reputation.

 

[Kralingen]

The fact that he tried to get Spo fired is not in dispute. Riley himself I think confirmed it I believe he admitted after Bron left that Bron had tried to get him to fire Spo and replace him himself. I know for sure Eddie House confirmed it. It'd be one thing if this was a one time thing. Bron has shown consistently over the course of his career a complete lack of respect for coaches. He's got the KD/Kyrie attitude of I don't need a coach and it's obvious.

Sure Jordan preferred Collins at first (understandably so Collins did whatever he wanted) but he didn't try to undermine Phil or get him fired. That's a ridiculous equivalency to draw and again this happens everywhere he went his whole career. It's LeBron's way or the highway luckily for him Riley saved him from himself in Miami.

I mean, I’m not disputing that he was acting immaturely when he bumped into Spo. A low moment in the career for sure. But I think it’s overblown and it’s not like he really is a coach killer outside of one coach, Blatt. And getting Blatt fired ultimately paid off handsomely by resulting in an incredible comeback under Lue. Yeah it’s not pretty… but winning rarely is. And again, it wasn’t like he didn’t embrace Blatt by the 2015 playoffs, they were mainly a mismatched fit to begin with. Vogel wasn’t really a coach killing, he really did suck in 2021-22 but I don’t even blame him as much as the Russ trade.

Sure out of 20 years there’s one instance of getting a coach fired and one instance of pushing for a disastrous trade. Even I won’t argue that. His fatal flaw is his talent evaluation as it relates to team construction (similarly, as a Hornets fan, the exact same as Michael’s) but he also has an outsized amount of power because of his status as a player. It’s not like he didn’t earn it.

You continuously conflate LeBron as a player with him as a locker room presence. He's an unbelievable player who has had amazing success. So was Shaq. Doesn't make them any less cancerous. And I love Shaq. It's just reality.

I'm never going to deny that Timmy wasn't in an amazing situation that doesn't take away from what he achieved as a leader. If you want someone who was given a **** situation and built an amazing culture than we can go with Curry or Dirk or someone else point stands.

Yes the Cavs were a mess and generally I don't think Bron was so bad in his first Cleveland stint. 09 is his most impressive year in my eyes and 10 would be second if not for the Celtics series.

So the dancing on the sideline and all the camaraderie of the 09 season, the smoothing things over with a teammate who was hooking up with his Mom, the consecutive 60 win seasons including a 66-16 incredible season and elevating Mo and Z from journeymen into career best all stars doesn’t count as building a great culture?

Because why exactly? They lost to the Magic in 09? So all of that stuff gets erased? This is what I mean about draft circumstances and results based analysis.

He never would’ve even entertained leaving if there wasn’t so much pressure on him in the first place. The front office was incompetent trading for Jamison and they had just fired Ferry and Brown BEFORE the decision btw. Let’s not forget that the Cavs were not a picture of stability, they actively tore down everything before he did in 2010. People rarely remember this.

Whos to say? Seriously? Every piece of evidence we have is to say. KG's situation in Minnesota makes Cleveland look like paradise and he still wasn't anywhere near as toxic in fact he was an overwhelmingly positive locker room presence until he kinda gave up in 06. Bron was literally handed a world class organization with a HOF coach and GM and his best friend as a co star and even there he was a cancer. He has way too big an ego to ever allow himself to be coached like Pop coaches he can barely even stand coaches who were glorified babysitters and do whatever he wants.

Dude if you are still saying he wasn’t allowing himself to be coached in Miami that’s just denial of reality. There is zero proof to point to that he didn’t buy 100% into Spo and Riley from 12-14. If the insane “solving basketball” 27 game stretch in 2013 and Darth Bron the defensive free safety who was also a missile in transition and somehow a great spot up shooter doesn’t convince you, then I’m not sure what else he could’ve possibly done. this is just pure bias on your part. He did adapt in Miami and improved as a result.

Yeah him being a cancer is still well well worth it because he's an unbelievable talent. He's still a cancer. These things aren't mutually exclusive. In fairness the 16 Heat when healthy were 1 game from the conference finals but again thats do to Riley having backbone more than anything else.

No it's not and you're exhibiting such a weird trait of LeBron fans where they attribute any criticism of him at all to hate and delusion or some other irrational thing. As much as you may think he is LeBron is not above criticism. No player is. I will happily admit that Jordan is a massive ässhole and he's probably extremely lucky that he had such a great culture builder in Phil to help smooth over the rougher aspects of his leadership style. It's ok you can admit it. LeBron's a POS. He can still be the GOAT. It's beyond me how anyone defends his character. Like you don't even need to take such an obviously wrong position to make your case.

I just read this as a fundamental disagreement on who he is a person and that’s fine. LBJ haters think they see through him and they’re the only ones who get it, he’s a malignant narcissist who is purely self-aggrandizing and would throw his own mother under the bus for success, and that it’s just his personality.

I see it as a really good and innately gifted kid hyped and pressured to basically insanity, who honestly gave everything a fair shot in his first stint in Cleveland, believed people openly and honestly, was a great teammate and presence, and bought in completely only to be let down by his front office and then completely skewered by the media.

The reason why he left is because he realized that it’s all BS and that the only way he’d get any respite was actually winning. So he made the move that gave him the best chance to win. End of. He was held to insane standards and had to live every day as the lightning rod for a gleeful caucus of hyenas we call the media.

You can’t compare LBJ to KG or Steph or Duncan and that’s what we disagree on fundamentally. Lets see KG/Steph/Duncan put through 1/10th of what even a 18 year old LeBron had to go through and see how they handle it.

this is the fundamental core disagreement I always come to. Is LBJ a clown and corny yes. Does he have an outsized ego yes. But does he ultimately give everything he has to a team when he’s on it? Yes. He makes constant checks and requests to maximize his chances of winning but if that’s a flaw then sign me up, because that sounds like a hell of a character flaw to have. But it’s nowhere as bad as it should be given how hyped he was and the insane media pressure he’s lived under. No one has ever been held to such ridiculous standards the way LeBron has and no one has ever been both built up and then attacked more than him.

Importantly, and this is my go to on this - name me any of his former teammates who ever came out and said he was a bad guy, leader, or teammate? Name any coach or GM who took shots at him after the fact. Seriously, do it. Youd think there would be many such cases given how cancerous he is.

 

[Kralingen]

Okay we’re defo at an impasse regarding LeBron lol. I think you could stand to be more charitable in most of these instances but fair enough, we’re not budging.

And yes, Duncan was fairly close to dashing in ‘00:

https://www.si.com/nba/magic/news/orlando-tim-duncan-san-antonio-spurs-grant-hill-free-agency-rumors-history-doc-rivers

I LOVE that Doc was the one that prevented it. Adds credence to my opinion that he’s the most destructive (not worst, but most destructive) coach in modern NBA history. Amazing that one man can accomplish so little with so much talent.

That’s actually hilarious a) because I never even knew that he took free agency meetings let alone was interested in leaving, b) because lol doc rivers, c) because only Tim Duncan can look at Orlando as a marquee free agency destination and d) that would’ve actually been a Big 3 to end all Big 3s and would’ve completely shifted the narrative.

02-03 TMac was genuinely on fire one of the singular best seasons a wing has ever had in NBA history. Pair that with 02-03 Duncan’s GOAT tier playoff run and that would be quite literally an unstoppable duo, even if they were coached by saboteur Rivers they would’ve found a way to make it work.

I think the one flaw with sports is the incredibly results biased analysis but what are you gonna do. I just feel like every player has about 10 deciles of potential career outcomes based on small butterfly effect stuff, we see some reach their absolute best possible potential and career outcome, some like JaMarcus Russell or Anthony Bennett reach their absolute worst outcome, and a lot of stuff in between.

 

[TheFifthSet]

That’s actually hilarious a) because I never even knew that he took free agency meetings let alone was interested in leaving, b) because lol doc rivers, c) because only Tim Duncan can look at Orlando as a marquee free agency destination and d) that would’ve actually been a Big 3 to end all Big 3s and would’ve completely shifted the narrative.

02-03 TMac was genuinely on fire one of the singular best seasons a wing has ever had in NBA history. Pair that with 02-03 Duncan’s GOAT tier playoff run and that would be quite literally an unstoppable duo, even if they were coached by saboteur Rivers they would’ve found a way to make it work.

I think the one flaw with sports is the incredibly results biased analysis but what are you gonna do. I just feel like every player has about 10 deciles of potential career outcomes based on small butterfly effect stuff, we see some reach their absolute best possible potential and career outcome, some like JaMarcus Russell or Anthony Bennett reach their absolute worst outcome, and a lot of stuff in between.

I’ll have to steal that last paragraph. Well-put.

 

[Kralingen]

I’ll have to steal that last paragraph. Well-put.

TMac is a perfect case because he was probably my favorite player as a kid growing up. People call him Drexler to Kobe’s Jordan but I think he was actually on Kobe’s level at his peak, that 00-03 stretch in Orlando was just incredible. I don’t think Tatum or George or VC ever got to that level. You could make an argument that no one sans KD/LBJ/Kawhi got to that level since then as a wing player and if they were better, it wasn’t by much.

But what happens if Grant Hill doesn’t fall victim to the cruelest set of ankle injuries ever and nearly die? What if he gets healthy grant hill in Orlando? What if Yao doesn’t keel over due to overuse by the Chinese national team? What if he gets just one single playoff shot with a healthy teammate? (OK there was 2007 but we don’t talk about that one) Man. All time what if. So while I was glad he did not get the ring eventually… he was one of the guys who deserved it more than most. Never got a fair shake imo.

 

[The Guru]

I mean, I’m not disputing that he was acting immaturely when he bumped into Spo. A low moment in the career for sure. But I think it’s overblown and it’s not like he really is a coach killer outside of one coach, Blatt. And getting Blatt fired ultimately paid off handsomely by resulting in an incredible comeback under Lue. Yeah it’s not pretty… but winning rarely is. And again, it wasn’t like he didn’t embrace Blatt by the 2015 playoffs, they were mainly a mismatched fit to begin with. Vogel wasn’t really a coach killing, he really did suck in 2021-22 but I don’t even blame him as much as the Russ trade.

Sure out of 20 years there’s one instance of getting a coach fired and one instance of pushing for a disastrous trade. Even I won’t argue that. His fatal flaw is his talent evaluation as it relates to team construction (similarly, as a Hornets fan, the exact same as Michael’s) but he also has an outsized amount of power because of his status as a player. It’s not like he didn’t earn it.

So the dancing on the sideline and all the camaraderie of the 09 season, the smoothing things over with a teammate who was hooking up with his Mom, the consecutive 60 win seasons including a 66-16 incredible season and elevating Mo and Z from journeymen into career best all stars doesn’t count as building a great culture?

Because why exactly? They lost to the Magic in 09? So all of that stuff gets erased? This is what I mean about draft circumstances and results based analysis.

He never would’ve even entertained leaving if there wasn’t so much pressure on him in the first place. The front office was incompetent trading for Jamison and they had just fired Ferry and Brown BEFORE the decision btw. Let’s not forget that the Cavs were not a picture of stability, they actively tore down everything before he did in 2010. People rarely remember this.

Dude if you are still saying he wasn’t allowing himself to be coached in Miami that’s just denial of reality. There is zero proof to point to that he didn’t buy 100% into Spo and Riley from 12-14. If the insane “solving basketball” 27 game stretch in 2013 and Darth Bron the defensive free safety who was also a missile in transition and somehow a great spot up shooter doesn’t convince you, then I’m not sure what else he could’ve possibly done. this is just pure bias on your part. He did adapt in Miami and improved as a result.

I just read this as a fundamental disagreement on who he is a person and that’s fine. LBJ haters think they see through him and they’re the only ones who get it, he’s a malignant narcissist who is purely self-aggrandizing and would throw his own mother under the bus for success, and that it’s just his personality.

I see it as a really good and innately gifted kid hyped and pressured to basically insanity, who honestly gave everything a fair shot in his first stint in Cleveland, believed people openly and honestly, was a great teammate and presence, and bought in completely only to be let down by his front office and then completely skewered by the media.

The reason why he left is because he realized that it’s all BS and that the only way he’d get any respite was actually winning. So he made the move that gave him the best chance to win. End of. He was held to insane standards and had to live every day as the lightning rod for a gleeful caucus of hyenas we call the media.

You can’t compare LBJ to KG or Steph or Duncan and that’s what we disagree on fundamentally. Lets see KG/Steph/Duncan put through 1/10th of what even a 18 year old LeBron had to go through and see how they handle it.

this is the fundamental core disagreement I always come to. Is LBJ a clown and corny yes. Does he have an outsized ego yes. But does he ultimately give everything he has to a team when he’s on it? Yes. He makes constant checks and requests to maximize his chances of winning but if that’s a flaw then sign me up, because that sounds like a hell of a character flaw to have. But it’s nowhere as bad as it should be given how hyped he was and the insane media pressure he’s lived under. No one has ever been held to such ridiculous standards the way LeBron has and no one has ever been both built up and then attacked more than him.

Importantly, and this is my go to on this - name me any of his former teammates who ever came out and said he was a bad guy, leader, or teammate? Name any coach or GM who took shots at him after the fact. Seriously, do it. Youd think there would be many such cases given how cancerous he is.

If trying to get Spo fired were the only time in LeBron's history he did something like that, it would be one thing. Again, the point here is that LeBron has never really shown signs that he's ever been impressed with any coach he's played for, so saying something like "I'm sure it would be different with Pop" is saying "I'm sure he would do something we've never seen him do with any of the 8 coaches he played for in his career if only the coach were good enough." Never mind that he's played for one of the greatest coaches ever. It's happened all over the place. Vogel didn't get fired because he failed at coaching. He got fired because the team was failing, and when LeBron's team fails and he's not in a position to leave, he looks to have the coach fired even if he himself forced the move that made the coach's job impossible.

Maybe he has earned it I'm not judging that. I'm judging that him exercising his power in the way he has hurt his teams.

Said it before say it again 09 Bron is peak Bron most impressive season of his career. Z was an all star before LBJ was even in the NBA but yes insane carry job from LeBron. An amazing accomplishment and one of the greatest individual seasons in basketball history even though they lost. Still don't think the locker room was particularly hunky dory or that Cleveland had a strong culture. West and LBJ certainly hate eachother though again as you alluded to hard to blame Bron there and again Bron was constantly undermining Mike Brown who has also now free from Bron shown himself to be a great coach. Jameison and Shaq (yes I know they joined the team in 2010) both have talked about how Brown wasn’t able to truly run the team because Bron was lording his power over him. Again I'm not talking about LeBron's basketball ability I'm talking about his ability to build up a franchise, a culture. Not only has he never done that he has actively damaged that at every stop of his career.

All of what you said about Bron's background is true and yes is it completely understandable that he's a selfish, entitled, egomaniac given that everyone was telling him he's god's gift from the time he was a teenager? Yes it's totally understandable. It's still true. It's still bad for his teams. Did the media push him into becoming more self-centered and petty? 100%. He's still that way whether he's to blame for it or not. At the end of the day you're responsible for your character and LBJ's character hurts his teams no matter how understandable it is given his circumstances.

So yes I can compare and I should because it matters and its controllable. It's part of your impact on winning and thats what we're evaluating when we evaluate players.

They exist Chalmers, West, Jameison are some of the top of my head but also people know not to say anything because it'd be detrimental to them to do so for many reasons. I'm sure many of the 19 Lakers aren't looking back with fond memories of LeBron but they're not going to say anything for obvious reasons.

Don't think these guys are getting beers anytime soon.

 

[TheFifthSet]

TMac is a perfect case because he was probably my favorite player as a kid growing up. People call him Drexler to Kobe’s Jordan but I think he was actually on Kobe’s level at his peak, that 00-03 stretch in Orlando was just incredible. I don’t think Tatum or George or VC ever got to that level. You could make an argument that no one sans KD/LBJ/Kawhi got to that level since then as a wing player and if they were better, it wasn’t by much.

But what happens if Grant Hill doesn’t fall victim to the cruelest set of ankle injuries ever and nearly die? What if he gets healthy grant hill in Orlando? What if Yao doesn’t keel over due to overuse by the Chinese national team? What if he gets just one single playoff shot with a healthy teammate? (OK there was 2007 but we don’t talk about that one) Man. All time what if. So while I was glad he did not get the ring eventually… he was one of the guys who deserved it more than most. Never got a fair shake imo.

Agree wholeheartedly. T-Mac was an all-time floor-raiser in ‘03. That team should’ve won like 18 games. Him and Yao also had some criminally poor depth surrounding them in some of their playoff runs.

We saw what even just adding Battier in ‘06 did for them. The T-Mac-Yao pairing was like a Walmart Shaq-Kobe (not an insult, actually) except they had almost none of the elite role players. The playoff failures made McGrady look like a flop but here are some with-and-without-you’s (including the Orlando years) :

01-02: 43-33 in games he played, 1-5 when he sat.

02-03: 38-36 with, 3-4 without.

03-04: 19-48 with, 2-13 without.

04-05: 49-29 with, 2-2 without. Terrible roster from the 3-9, seriously look at that cast. One of the worst in the league aside from the duo.

05-06: 27-20 with, 7-28 without (LOL).

06-07: 50-21 with, 2-9 without.

07-08: 46-20 with, 9-7 without.


They caught lightning in a bottle and got hot the one year without him in ‘09 and he was treated like some kind of net-negative because of it.

 

[The Guru]

TMac is a perfect case because he was probably my favorite player as a kid growing up. People call him Drexler to Kobe’s Jordan but I think he was actually on Kobe’s level at his peak, that 00-03 stretch in Orlando was just incredible. I don’t think Tatum or George or VC ever got to that level. You could make an argument that no one sans KD/LBJ/Kawhi got to that level since then as a wing player and if they were better, it wasn’t by much.

But what happens if Grant Hill doesn’t fall victim to the cruelest set of ankle injuries ever and nearly die? What if he gets healthy grant hill in Orlando? What if Yao doesn’t keel over due to overuse by the Chinese national team? What if he gets just one single playoff shot with a healthy teammate? (OK there was 2007 but we don’t talk about that one) Man. All time what if. So while I was glad he did not get the ring eventually… he was one of the guys who deserved it more than most. Never got a fair shake imo.

More basketball takes like this please

 

[Kralingen]

If trying to get Spo fired were the only time in LeBron's history he did something like that, it would be one thing. Again, the point here is that LeBron has never really shown signs that he's ever been impressed with any coach he's played for, so saying something like "I'm sure it would be different with Pop" is saying "I'm sure he would do something we've never seen him do with any of the 8 coaches he played for in his career if only the coach were good enough." Never mind that he's played for one of the greatest coaches ever. It's happened all over the place. Vogel didn't get fired because he failed at coaching. He got fired because the team was failing, and when LeBron's team fails and he's not in a position to leave, he looks to have the coach fired even if he himself forced the move that made the coach's job impossible.

Maybe he has earned it I'm not judging that. I'm judging that him exercising his power in the way he has hurt his teams.

Said it before say it again 09 Bron is peak Bron most impressive season of his career. Z was an all star before LBJ was even in the NBA but yes insane carry job from LeBron. An amazing accomplishment and one of the greatest individual seasons in basketball history even though they lost. Still don't think the locker room was particularly hunky dory or that Cleveland had a strong culture. West and LBJ certainly hate eachother though again as you alluded to hard to blame Bron there and again Bron was constantly undermining Mike Brown who has also now free from Bron shown himself to be a great coach. Jameison and Shaq (yes I know they joined the team in 2010) both have talked about how Brown wasn’t able to truly run the team because Bron was lording his power over him. Again I'm not talking about LeBron's basketball ability I'm talking about his ability to build up a franchise, a culture. Not only has he never done that he has actively damaged that at every stop of his career.

All of what you said about Bron's background is true and yes is it completely understandable that he's a selfish, entitled, egomaniac given that everyone was telling him he's god's gift from the time he was a teenager? Yes it's totally understandable. It's still true. It's still bad for his teams. Did the media push him into becoming more self-centered and petty? 100%. He's still that way whether he's to blame for it or not. At the end of the day you're responsible for your character and LBJ's character hurts his teams no matter how understandable it is given his circumstances.

So yes I can compare and I should because it matters and its controllable. It's part of your impact on winning and thats what we're evaluating when we evaluate players.

I don’t think it’s hurt his ability to win at all though. There is not a single season of LBJ’s career even 2011 (that was just a choke on his part not some chemistry or locker room issue) where his bad behavior or lack of “culture” prevented them from winning a title or severely stunted their chances at success. Keeping Wiggins would’ve been an awful idea. They had no chance of winning anything in 2019 anyways, maybe he could’ve been more patient and waited for AD in free agency but that’s about it. 2010 no one ever talks about how Shaq came back from injury early and threw off their rotations and made them way more plodding and easy to defend when that team surged without Shaq or Z, playing small ball. He also did demonstrably get hurt midway thru the series.

Ultimately I don’t care if he was the Dalai Lama singing lullabies to every player on the team for the entire 2007, 2014, 2017-18 seasons. No amount of team building would’ve been able to surmount those talent and coaching gaps. Maybe on paper 2014 but Wade and Bosh were empty husks of themselves, comparable to 23 Klay and Draymond I’d say and actually even worse defensively. And in fact loyalty may have hurt him if anything, the Heat don’t beat the Warriors in 15-18 if LBJ stays because idc about Wade’s nice small sample size advanced stats run in 2016, both he and Bosh were finished at the top level post 2014.

They exist Chalmers, West, Jameison are some of the top of my head but also people know not to say anything because it'd be detrimental to them to do so for many reasons. I'm sure many of the 19 Lakers aren't looking back with fond memories of LeBron but they're not going to say anything for obvious reasons.

Don't think these guys are getting beers anytime soon.

They aren’t getting rings either

One thing I will admit is I HATE Rich Paul and I think it’s borderline criminal how much influence he has on the game. And Bron’s extremely close ties to a player agency as an active player is scummy and bad and I will never defend it or feel good about it in anyway. So there. I gave you that. I am not some blind worshipper at the least.

 

[Subway Tennis]

How old was Federer at Wimbledon 2012?

I think Nadal in the 2020 French Open final is one of the high watermarks for how far competitive prime can stretch.

He was 35 there (albeit only just turned 35) and yet he mutated out of human form into a god made of clay for that match. Admittedly he was only playing Djokovic, so we don’t have the reference point of how that level would have matched up against 20 year old Alcaraz, but I’m thinking it might still have gone pretty well for Rafa.

 

[mike danny]

You claimed not to subscribe to the idea that 28 is the end of tennis primes and then stated that's exactly when it happened for multiple players.

Not the point. I'm saying if your guess is correct that Med's prime will last another 3 years then he will have extended it into a later age than the Big 3 managed according to you.

Not age 28 per se, but something close to 29. It even happened to Djokovic who peaked later than the other 2.

But Med already suffered a huge setback to consider last year prime for him.

 

[Razer]

@Razer is a good poster even though we have many disagreements. As for @UnderratedSlam due to his ego, he will never admit he was wrong about great age shift theory.

GAS is true but it doesn't mean you're a Better player at 36-38 than you were at 25-26 and yeah @Razer is a very good poster and very objective. He was a Fed fan before.

GAS Theory never meant 36 is new 26, that is a punchline spread by Djokovic to look cool. However GAS Theory meant that now players have 6 years of extra careers in their 30s, that means the onset of terminal decline earlier which was like 30 in 20th century is now like 36. This is what Lendl, Kuerten, Wilander, Henman, Sampras himself said and this is what GAS means.

Currently avg age of top 20 is young because a new era has begun so old players all left top 20 and new set of players took over who will all be playing into their 30s. Guys like Sinner, Rune, Medvedev, Zverev, Tsitsipas etc they will there in their 30s as well playing at a high enough level and ranked high enough too. This is the Great Age Shift.

 

[mike danny]

no need to take shots at Sampras.

He had a rare blood condition in thalassemia that could’ve been treated much more effectively in this modern age from what I’ve read.

Also modern medicine and improvements might include something like Djokovic’s egg or hyperbaric chamber or the plasma injections and stem cell therapy Nadal gets for his knees.. it’s not just made up gibberish, there are real advancements.

PETE definitely could’ve lasted longer in this era.

But from that to saying 30-31 back then is like 35-36 today is hyperbole.

 

[mike danny]

How old was Federer at Wimbledon 2012?

I think Nadal in the 2020 French Open final is one of the high watermarks for how far competitive prime can stretch.

He was 35 there (albeit only just turned 35) and yet he mutated out of human form into a god made of clay for that match. Admittedly he was only playing Djokovic, so we don’t have the reference point of how that level would have matched up against 20 year old Alcaraz, but I’m thinking it might still have gone pretty well for Rafa.

Rafa was 34 then, not 35.

Fed was almost 31 at 2012 Wimb. And what he did back then, like winning a slam and becoming no.1, was considered extraordinary which goes to show that there wasn't such talk of overall increased longevity back then.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Rafa was 34 then, not 35.

Fed was almost 31 at 2012 Wimb. And what he did back then, like winning a slam and becoming no.1, was considered extraordinary which goes to show that there wasn't such talk of overall increased longevity back then.

Yes, I just double-checked and you’re right. He was 34 and 3 months when he played the 2020 RG final. Appreciate the correction.

I do agree that relative to the time, Federer’s 2012 Wimbledon was a sensation.

I don’t think it was just the statistical achievement but also the way in which he won. He had one weird match during the tournament (can’t remember who it was against) but besides that match it didn’t look like there was anyone in the draw who would be able to beat him.

 

[Rosstour]

But I thought it was supposed to be a new paradigm irrespective of the quality of players involved.

And let's not pretend like the 30's dudes from 2017-2018 were only there based on their quality. They were there because the younger guys were non-existent.

They were there because they were that good. They bucked the paradigm and we are seeing a regression to the mean

 

[mike danny]

Yes, I just double-checked and you’re right. He was 34 and 3 months when he played the 2020 RG final. Appreciate the correction.

I do agree that relative to the time, Federer’s 2012 Wimbledon was a sensation.

I don’t think it was just the statistical achievement but also the way in which he won. He had one weird match during the tournament (can’t remember who it was against) but besides that match it didn’t look like there was anyone in the draw who would be able to beat him.

Fed had an off match against Benneateau in the 3rd round and then played with an injured back against Malisse. Fed was extremely lucky not to get a better player in that match to make him pay.

 

[mike danny]

They were there because they were that good. They bucked the paradigm and we are seeing a regression to the mean

Nah, I'd hardly call someone like Anderson that good.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Absolutely, if used as a catch-all. That’s why I also included top performers.



But bolded is primarily because of injury recovery, which I already talked about.

Injury recovery makes the sport “older” just as draft rules make the sport “younger”… while the top performers seem to be around the same age.

The point is it’s a multivariate subject and the much more boring (and I’d argue correct) answer to the question of whether athletes age better is: “it varies”.

Varies based on the sport and the parameters we’re using.

Sweeping statements about the sporting world getting older as a whole are just that.

Indeed. 'Getting older' is an interesting envelope, but I think it's critical to assess whether we're focused on career longevity - and how the level of career 'success' is defined - or the chronology of a player's quasi-bell curve of performance. The notions that you can play until 40 now and that you can play your best stuff in your mid 20s aren't mutually exclusive. And this is to say nothing of results not necessarily correlating with one's best efforts due to a transient field and multiple variables, of course.

 

[Razer]

Indeed. 'Getting older' is an interesting envelope, but I think it's critical to assess whether we're focused on career longevity - and how the level of career 'success' is defined - or the chronology of a player's quasi-bell curve of performance. The notions that you can play until 40 now and that you can play your best stuff in your mid 20s aren't mutually exclusive. And this is to say nothing of results not necessarily correlating with one's best efforts due to a transient field and multiple variables, of course.

That Curve is steep when it is on the rise and slowly coming down when on the fall, that is what GAS ensures. So that means Roger in 2015 was under the illusion that he was as good as 2005 because the fall was not at all steep.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

That Curve is steep when it is on the rise and slowly coming down when on the fall, that is what GAS ensures. So that means Roger in 2015 was under the illusion that he was as good as 2005 because the fall was not at all steep.

I refuse to accept GAS as a legitimate term because it was disingenuously posited by an opportunistic arse candle, but yes, I don't think it's outrageous to imagine the downward trend may typically have a shallower gradient nowadays. I think the curve is different for different faculties also i.e. serve, movement etc., which would at least conceivably yield some kind of aggregate trend.

 

[Razer]

I refuse to accept GAS as a legitimate term because it was disingenuously posited by an opportunistic arse candle, but yes, I don't think it's outrageous to imagine the downward trend may typically have a shallower gradient nowadays. I think the curve is different for different faculties also i.e. serve, movement etc., which would at least conceivably yield some kind of aggregate trend.

How is this graph ?

Do you accept that this could be the graph for Big 3 and Sampras ?

The yellow is for Big 3, someone like Novak/Federer could be the yellow while the red could be applicable for Pete ?
Someone like Nadal might vary a little bit from this graph, his trajectory has been a big unconventional for sure.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

How is this graph ?

Do you accept that this could be the graph for Big 3 and Sampras ?

The yellow is for Big 3, someone like Novak/Federer could be the yellow while the red could be applicable for Pete ?
Someone like Nadal might vary a little bit from this graph, his trajectory has been a big unconventional for sure.

I find it hard to believe that sports science has improved in 20 years to the extent that e.g. PETE could shift his curve by 6 years. Otherwise graph makes some sense, although I'd have the downward trend a little sharper on average. I think 22 is clearly generally better than 35 for example. Impossible to tell shapes for sure; very non-exact science. Vertical axis would be key, too.

 

[Razer]

I find it hard to believe that sports science has improved in 20 years to the extent that e.g. PETE could shift his curve by 6 years. Otherwise graph makes some sense, although I'd have the downward trend a little sharper on average. I think 22 is clearly generally better than 35 for example. Impossible to tell shapes for sure; very non-exact science. Vertical axis would be key, too.

Yes 22 should be able to kick ass of someone who is 35, Nadal at 19 did beat Agassi at 35, but that is Nadal, you could say Federer at 22 could also kick ass of Agassi at 35 but today's 35 is supposedly better than past's 35, so Novak even at 36 is looking is good shape to take on Alcaraz (who is a Nadal type growth) at 20, it is looking much more competitive than Agassi vs Nadal did, so the age shift is there for sure, it might be 5-6 but as we go up the gap keeps narrowing I guess. Thats means if you say 36 is new 30 then it doesn't mean 42 is new 36, maybe 40 is new 36, as we go older the gap converges I guess ? ....

 

[travlerajm]

Oh please. Go back to Undisputed with this first order LeBron hating crap.

did you really just insinuate that the only difference between Gregg Popovich ending up as basically the Belichick of the NBA as one of the greatest coaches/execs ever and getting fired was drafting Duncan vs LeBron?

That’s genuinely up there with the stupidest thing anyone has ever written about basketball and that’s actually being kind. Need I remind you that Duncan wasn’t alone on those teams he had DAVID ROBINSON, a player who in 99 was easily still a top 10 player and even in 00-03 was a foundational presence. Also what made Popovich’s Spurs so great was that he exploited what was a much-ignored draft market, allowing him to get Ginobili and Parker for snips, and an elite development program and culture behind the scenes.. unless you want to put Manu and Tony’s incredible international success ALSO down to Duncan, I think they were damn good players on their own..

Second of all, LeBron didn’t do any LeGM crap until 2010 did he? No his incompetent GMs made a series of unfortunate events which includes some of the dumbest most non-sencical trades ever (google Jiri Welsch, seriously, look it up) and the supporting cast Pop was able to put around Duncan from 01-07 FAR surpasses anyone LeBron got to play with in his first stint in Cleveland.

No, in a vacuum Popovich did literally a 10 times better job than John Paxton and Danny Ferry.

Third of all. Let me tell you what would actually get you fired as a GM. Walking up to your owner who just signed the best player in the NBA who’s basically a guaranteed finals trip on his own, and then telling him you WON’T be trading any assets or draft picks to put talent around him.

The modern NBA is replete with teams going all-in to surround even second-tier stars with talent (see Gobert in Minny, DeJounte Murray in Atlanta, Beal in Phoenix, PG to OKC and then later LAC, I could go on).

No GM who was worth his salt would ever seek to do anything but win now with a player like LeBron on their team, including I might add Popovich and whoever else you’re thinking of.

LeBron changed teams to build a new team from scratch 3 times in his career. All 3 times resulted in a championship by year 2. That’s a more impressive GM resume than any actual GM in history. He’s got that over MJ.

And the 3 teams he left went from contender to near the top of the lotto draw in year 1 post ‘Bron. He’s got that over MJ too, whose Bulls still made the conference semi’s during his baseball break.

 

[Kralingen]

Does anyone want to address the elephant in the room which is that Novak and Rafa have essentially been crapola in Masters 1000s (either due to lacking interest or simply skipping the tournaments entirely) since 2021 started? Djoko has won 2 - Paris 21, Rome 22, Rafa 1 - Rome 21. Meanwhile, they have each won more Slams than Masters during this time period.

They basically peak only for Slams (Novak to his credit won 3 indoor tournaments and the YEC last year), and play 40 less matches in a season than in their prime.

Isn’t this basically the same thing as “load management” in basketball? It is important.

 

[travlerajm]

Does anyone want to address the elephant in the room which is that Novak and Rafa have essentially been crapola in Masters 1000s (either due to lacking interest or simply skipping the tournaments entirely) since 2021 started? Djoko has won 2 - Paris 21, Rome 22, Rafa 1 - Rome 21. Meanwhile, they have each won more Slams than Masters during this time period.

They basically peak only for Slams (Novak to his credit won 3 indoor tournaments and the YEC last year), and play 40 less matches in a season than in their prime.

Isn’t this basically the same thing as “load management” in basketball? It is important.

Maybe it has less to do with Djok and Rafa, and more to do with the rest of the field (ie, NextGen) having setups that peak in the 3rd set, then hit a wall?

 

[The Guru]

I don’t think it’s hurt his ability to win at all though. There is not a single season of LBJ’s career even 2011 (that was just a choke on his part not some chemistry or locker room issue) where his bad behavior or lack of “culture” prevented them from winning a title or severely stunted their chances at success. Keeping Wiggins would’ve been an awful idea. They had no chance of winning anything in 2019 anyways, maybe he could’ve been more patient and waited for AD in free agency but that’s about it. 2010 no one ever talks about how Shaq came back from injury early and threw off their rotations and made them way more plodding and easy to defend when that team surged without Shaq or Z, playing small ball. He also did demonstrably get hurt midway thru the series.

Ultimately I don’t care if he was the Dalai Lama singing lullabies to every player on the team for the entire 2007, 2014, 2017-18 seasons. No amount of team building would’ve been able to surmount those talent and coaching gaps. Maybe on paper 2014 but Wade and Bosh were empty husks of themselves, comparable to 23 Klay and Draymond I’d say and actually even worse defensively. And in fact loyalty may have hurt him if anything, the Heat don’t beat the Warriors in 15-18 if LBJ stays because idc about Wade’s nice small sample size advanced stats run in 2016, both he and Bosh were finished at the top level post 2014.

They aren’t getting rings either

One thing I will admit is I HATE Rich Paul and I think it’s borderline criminal how much influence he has on the game. And Bron’s extremely close ties to a player agency as an active player is scummy and bad and I will never defend it or feel good about it in anyway. So there. I gave you that. I am not some blind worshipper at the least.

Who’s being results oriented now? Truth is you have no idea whether or not that’s true. The 22 Warriors if cobbled together in a random organization having never played together before are not a championship level team. Not even close. But they were greater than the some of their talents because of the culture and continuity built by Curry and Kerr. LeBrons teams were mostly less than the sum of their parts and again he certainly never provided the lift in this area that Curry demonstrated. It’s not far fetched at all to imagine LBJ with Timmy’s personality in Cleveland turning Mike Brown into a legendary HOFer and establishing Cleveland as a consistent winning culture that overachieves their talent. Yeah he might’ve won less doing it that way instead of jumping to loaded teams and then strongarming them into dumping all their assets into a few years then dipping once all their ammo is blown but he would’ve been a greater more effective player. I don’t care about the titles I care how much value you’re providing and LBJ providing negative value in this area hurts him period.

 

[nolefam_2024]

36 is new 26. So actually there are none..

 

[Kralingen]

Who’s being results oriented now? Truth is you have no idea whether or not that’s true. The 22 Warriors if cobbled together in a random organization having never played together before are not a championship level team. Not even close. But they were greater than the some of their talents because of the culture and continuity built by Curry and Kerr. LeBrons teams were mostly less than the sum of their parts and again he certainly never provided the lift in this area that Curry demonstrated. It’s not far fetched at all to imagine LBJ with Timmy’s personality in Cleveland turning Mike Brown into a legendary HOFer and establishing Cleveland as a consistent winning culture that overachieves their talent. Yeah he might’ve won less doing it that way instead of jumping to loaded teams and then strongarming them into dumping all their assets into a few years then dipping once all their ammo is blown but he would’ve been a greater more effective player. I don’t care about the titles I care how much value you’re providing and LBJ providing negative value in this area hurts him period.

Ah yes the lift that Curry demonstrated.

Tell me, how did Steph have two of the best statistical years of his career in 2021 and 2023, (after the 50 point Game 7 everyone was calling this “Peak Steph”), and he had his culture, his coach, his ride or die guy in Green, a young star in Wiggins coming off an amazing finals, along with some young guys he had elevated with his “cultural lift” and his “rising tides”… and then still manage to get defeated in the playoffs, including losing a series in which they had home court advantage, by 36 and 38 year old LeBron’s awful cultural fit and negative aura?

Explain how and why they lost those matchups.

Also, Curry Jokic Giannis Duncan etc all played with all stars or all NBA caliber players when it came time for them to re-sign. Curry re signed when he had Kevin ****ing Durant. Jokic had an elite Jamal Murray (who just got injured but by all accounts is one of the best guards in the league), Duncan had decorated FMVP Parker and Ginobili. Hell, Khris Middleton is literally better than anyone on the 2010 Cavs team by a significant measure.

It’s a lot easier to stay when there’s some semblance of a supporting cast. The 2010 Cavs had almost no talent around Bron.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Ah yes the lift that Curry demonstrated.

Tell me, how did Steph have two of the best statistical years of his career in 2021 and 2023,

Agree with the rest of your post but late-prime Steph is almost reaching mid-30’s Djoko levels of hyperbolic valuations.

His raw numbers are somewhat similar to prime levels, but it’s a different offensive climate. Bron’s raw numbers are near prime/peak levels too; is he in his prime? Obviously not. He’s a fringe top 10 player now (which is a miracle in and of itself. A 38 year old has no business being in that conversation).

 

[RS]

Basketball seems fun. Still a rookie.

These discussion's help a bit.

 

[Kralingen]

Basketball seems fun. Still a rookie.

These discussion's help a bit.

I wouldn’t say that. my posts especially are pretty stupid and will teach you nothing other than the sad ravings of a LeBron fanboy ranting into the wind.

I think you just need to learn to enjoy the game of basketball, everything is going to come from there.

 

[TheFifthSet]

What’s interesting to me is that league-wide efficiency is soaring to such heights that it’s getting harder for elite players to create separation. Curry in ‘14-‘15 (his first MVP year) authored a .638 TS% season, which was good for a 119 TS+.

Last year his raw TS% was much higher (.656%), while his TS+ was a much lower 113.

I know Jokic is pushing the envelope, but can individual efficiencies get much higher than his? Surely 25ppg on 70% TS is nearing the ceiling.

I have a feeling that an Olajuwon-level defensive player will come along soon and show just how far offensive efficiencies can fall. The bigger they are the harder they fall, as that goes. Just a hunch. The pendulum has swung too far in favour of offence/offensive players and there’s going to be a counter-revolution.

60% TS shooting seasons are quickly becoming like German mark’s in the 20’s.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Watching basketball in live was pretty boring.

 

[RS]

I wouldn’t say that. my posts especially are pretty stupid and will teach you nothing other than the sad ravings of a LeBron fanboy ranting into the wind.

I think you just need to learn to enjoy the game of basketball, everything is going to come from there.

Not you alone

 

[Kralingen]

Agree with the rest of your post but late-prime Steph is almost reaching mid-30’s Djoko levels of hyperbolic valuations.

His raw numbers are somewhat similar to prime levels, but it’s a different offensive climate. Bron’s raw numbers are near prime/peak levels too; is he in his prime? Obviously not. He’s a fringe top 10 player now (which is a miracle in and of itself. A 38 year old has no business being in that conversation).

Why is that the case though? I mean eye test wise what has Steph really lost?

The thing that falls off with old age more than anything is two-way play, and it's not like there was much to lose on defense for him anyways... He never had more than a minimal defensive impact anyways (due to his size) - it's not like he was Gary Payton at his peak. In fact it's not clear that he was ever more than mildly above average.

I agree he is not better now but in 21-23 he has been absolutely incredible shooting the ball as usual, his finishing numbers are up there with the highest of his career, he elevates in big games... TS+ is the indicator compared to the rest of the league, but that doesn't mean he's not still ridiculously efficient, as you said.

 

[RS]

Right another basketball question.

Was Shaq's huge weight for a basketball player better than if he trimmed down a bit to be a bit weaker physically maybe and gain more speed? Or was weight perfect for his game and physicality and losing it to any signifcant degree would have drained him?

 

[Kralingen]

Right another basketball question.

Was Shaq's huge weight for a basketball player better than if he trimmed down a bit to be a bit weaker physically maybe and gain more speed?

Oh boy glad you asked this.

Here's the video that Jordan fans have hidden from the internet more than anything in history, the game that none of them will ever discuss or touch with a 10 feet pole. The time where Jordan actually choked in the clutch, blowing a 3 point lead with a minute left. You'll see a much more spry, athletic, and mobile Shaq in this video. Look at him! He looks like a different human being!

One could very well argue that this was his close to his best version, at the least the 94-95 Shaq is statistically comparable to later versions. I think that Shaq's huge weight didn't hurt him at all game-wise, he was incredibly dominant having added about 50 pounds in the LA threepeat here:

long story short - the issue wasn't that he weighed a lot, the issue was that he was fat. Yes, there is a difference. A very big difference.

Seriously, even in his LA Lakers prime he was a fat **** who didn't care about getting in shape whatsoever. The weight can be managed if you're diligent and professional. He wasn't, he didn't care about staying in shape, injury rehab, or basic body maintenance and it led to conditioning issues, locker room drama, and eventually his injuries and downfall after 2003.

 

[RS]

Yeah I was thinking more it's the type weight rather than just the weight. It reminds me of George Foreman in his 2nd career.

He went from 220s to 270s and the weight was mostly fat rather than muscle. But they are freaks of nature that it may not be the hindrance it looks.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Why is that the case though? I mean eye test wise what has Steph really lost?

Well for one thing he’s not quite as efficient from long-range, especially in the playoffs (‘14-‘16: 42% on 11 attempts per game, since then 38% on 11). That’s a difficult thing for the eye test to catch, just as it would be difficult to notice a .320 hitter declining into a .300 hitter (all else being equal).

Considering the ever-improving spacing of the league (resulting in an ever-expanding offensive Big Bang), why is Curry barely keeping pace? Obviously some of it is that the offensive upticking is giving him less margin to separate himself from the pack, but that can’t be all of it.

You have to adjust for the changing offensive environment. Otherwise ‘23 LeBron and ‘09 LeBron are identical.

Per 100 possessions -

09 Bron: 41/11/10 59% TS
23 Bron: 39/11/9 58% TS

One had the best advanced stat season since Jordan in his prime. The other wasn’t in the single season Top 1000 all-time in any conventional advanced stat.

The other thing is that he’s even more of an injury risk now. The image of him being made of glass has merit to it but he had a five year stretch where he missed almost no time at all.

I agree he is not better now but in 21-23 he has been absolutely incredible shooting the ball as usual, his finishing numbers are up there with the highest of his career, he elevates in big games... TS+ is the indicator compared to the rest of the league, but that doesn't mean he's any less efficient, as you said.

Well yeah his finishing numbers are up but he’s also taking 2x less attempts; 76% conversion rate at the rim last year (a career high) but only 11% of his shots were from there and he only played 56 games. He converted close to 70% on 20% attempts at his peak.

So it’s probably down to a mix of genuine improvement (from the 2-3 years before it), statistical noise/variance and changing offensive schemes (less packed lanes).

I mean look at LeBron’s finishing stats in LA:

33.9% of shots came at the rim, 76.7% conversion rate

Compared to Miami:

34.5%, 77.1%.

No difference at all, even with 10 years of age/mileage and diminished athleticism tacked on.


But overall I do concur that Curry’s case as a LiftBot is overstated and needs to be contextualized. I actually think ‘13-‘17 was the perfect time for Curry to prime as it was sort of a sweet-spot period where there was a good balance between coaches giving their guys the green light and the hold-overs from the previous era not shooting enough 3’s.

In the early 2000’s I think Curry is likely taking 7-8 three’s a game (a la Peja), which puts a cap on his ceiling.

In the late 2010’s to now, he shoots his customary 10-13 but the rest of the league has started to catch up, making him less valuable too.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Oh boy glad you asked this.

Here's the video that Jordan fans have hidden from the internet more than anything in history, the game that none of them will ever discuss or touch with a 10 feet pole. The time where Jordan actually choked in the clutch, blowing a 3 point lead with a minute left. You'll see a much more spry, athletic, and mobile Shaq in this video. Look at him! He looks like a different human being!

One could very well argue that this was his close to his best version, at the least the 94-95 Shaq is statistically comparable to later versions. I think that Shaq's huge weight didn't hurt him at all game-wise, he was incredibly dominant having added about 50 pounds in the LA threepeat here:

long story short - the issue wasn't that he weighed a lot, the issue was that he was fat. Yes, there is a difference. A very big difference.

Seriously, even in his LA Lakers prime he was a fat **** who didn't care about getting in shape whatsoever. The weight can be managed if you're diligent and professional. He wasn't, he didn't care about staying in shape, injury rehab, or basic body maintenance and it led to conditioning issues, locker room drama, and eventually his injuries and downfall after 2003.

Right on.

What made Shaq unique was that his body could accommodate the weight (to a point) and still maintain its spryness.

He could be nimble at 330-340.

380, though (his reported weight entering the ‘02 preseason)?

Not so much. That’s where injury concerns started to creep in (or anywhere north of 350).

Even just coming into the league he was a 7’1 300 pound behemoth with a 7’7 wingspan and then-record 12’5” vertical reach.

 

[RS]

Yeah I was about say said Shaq was 300 in the first video but it said he reached as high as 380 in his career online.

 

[Kralingen]

Right on.

What made Shaq unique was that his body could accommodate the weight (to a point) and still maintain its spryness.

He could be nimble at 330-340.

380, though (his reported weight entering the ‘02 preseason)?

Not so much. That’s where injury concerns started to creep in (or anywhere north of 350).

Even just coming into the league he was a 7’1 300 pound behemoth with a 7’7 wingspan and then-record 12’5” vertical reach.

Yeah I was about say said Shaq was 300 in the first video but it said he reached as high as 380 in his career online.

to your point though there would’ve been diminishing returns to be a player as heavy as Shaq in the modern NBA imo. The amount of spacing would’ve severely taxed his perimeter defense and made it harder to play this faster pace and chase players around on defense.

Yeah I know Jokic fat lol, Embiid is also a hefty boy. But both are definitely lighter than Shaq. Definitely not 300 lbs.

Zion who is essentially a smaller version of Shaq athletically is similarly also fat and has missed over 70% of his NBA career now due to injuries and poor conditioning.

 

[TheFifthSet]

to your point though there would’ve been diminishing returns to be a player as heavy as Shaq in the modern NBA imo. The amount of spacing would’ve severely taxed his perimeter defense and made it harder to play this faster pace and chase players around on defense.

Yeah I know Jokic fat lol, Embiid is also a hefty boy. But both are definitely lighter than Shaq. Definitely not 300 lbs.

Zion who is essentially a smaller version of Shaq athletically is similarly also fat and has missed over 70% of his NBA career now due to injuries and poor conditioning.

Yeah he’d have to make adjustments. Even in his own era, the missed rotations cost his team games.