Toxicmilk
Professional
Oh come on. Have you even been watching tennis the last whole year so far?
The top 6 against each other in 2009
- Thread starter P_Agony
- Start date
Oh come on. Have you even been watching tennis the last whole year so far?
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
We almost agree. I could consider the top 5. I don't think Roddick is part of the group even with the W final. What big tournament has Roddick WON this year? Zero. That's why I don't put him with the top 5 who have all won either a master or a slam, wtf 2008 for Djoko (which you have to count since we're in September now and it's still part of the current year). That's why to me Roddick is not in the same league. The ranking points agree with me given the points gap between Delpo and Roddick (and that's despite his W final!!)
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
All the time. Have you?
Fed has dominated zip for the first 4 months of the year (actually his head to head vs top players was pretty abysmal then). He only dominated the 4 months after Nadal crashed. That's why if you look at his results vs his main rivals this year OVERALL, they're not that impressive.
_maxi
Banned
You are right. I think it was a masters event in clay where he reached the semi final.. my mystake.
grafselesfan
Banned
Fair enough. You make some good points on Roddick. Probably you are right and it is really the big 5 more than the big 6. Maybe I am crediting Roddick more for his overall career than his current ability vs the rest. I admire how he is working hard to improve after being up there in the top 10 so many years, but younger players like Murray, Del Potro, Soderling, Tsonga, Verdasco, are finding it easy to improve which is only natural.
In Roddick's defense I guess he has done very well vs Djokovic head to head this year but that seems to be more a matchup thing and mental thing than anything else. Plus while I like Djokovic if he doesnt pick it up more soon he could find Murray and Del Potro pulling away. I am pleased the last couple tournaments he seems to be playing better, but I know he is still capable of more.
drwood
Professional
Roddick made the QF of Madrid, where he was the only player in the tournament to take a set off of Fed (not even Nadal could do this in the final).
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
He is but time is not working in his favor. I would say grass is the one surface where his chances are the highest. He also has a good chance if Djoko's level continues dipping (that truly frustrates me, IMO Djoko has more talent than his current results reflect). I have absolutely nothing against Roddick. I just can't say he should be part of the top group when he hasn't won anything significant lately.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
The Madrid semi really destroyed whatever was left of Rafa's knee. I wish he had been able to skip that tournament: he started it worn out and ended it out of order! But sooner or later he would have had to take some time off for his knees anyway. Those damn things were like a ticking bomb...
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Where I'll be? Happy I guess since Rafa has an excellent record against Sod but I don't think Sod is talented enough to stay long in the top 10 anyway...
grafselesfan
Banned
If Soderling keeps playing like he is lately I think he will be in the top 8 soon. I am not a fan of the guy at all, but the level he was playing at both Wimbledon and the U.S Open he could have gone even further if he didnt draw Federer when he did. Then again I am not sure if he can keep his 2009 level.
drwood
Professional
Agreed. You could make a legit case that after the Australian, Soderling was the 3rd best player in slams behind Fed and Delpo.
And I'm pretty sure Nadal won't want to face Soderling on indoor carpet at the YEC -- Nadal's worst surface and Soderling's best.
grafselesfan
Banned
At the French too he went on to hammer Davydenko, one of the best clay courters after Federer and Nadal the last several years, and then to outlast Gonzalez who was one of the top 5 or 6 clay courters of the last couple years also.
drwood
Professional
Quoted for truth.
Carsomyr
Legend
He's 1-1 against Soderling this year, which is the the only H2H we're looking at. That's not an "excellent record." Meanwhile, Federer is 4-0 against Soderling. The point is, since you seem to have missed it, is that no matter how you try and spin the statistics in Nadal's favor, that Federer was still the superior player this year, be it against the top 6 or the top 10.
tacou
G.O.A.T.
err I don't know about that. these boards are so fickle; try to time warp back to, say, March. Rafael Nadal was IT. Federer was in the gutter. Roger certainly wasn't playing his best but it didn't matter, Rafa was the clear world #1, and then he goes away for 2 months with injury and it seems everyone has forgotten.
obviously Federer is playing better now and will likely have a better over all year than Rafa, but a 2 month injury absence makes it hard for you to maintain dominance, you know?
Nadal LOST to Federer and Soderling before his injury absence. That absence involved missing one major - Wimbledon - and no Masters series events. And what has he achieved since his return?
tacou
G.O.A.T.
he was still #1 in the world despite those losses, and had he not been injured I'm sure he would not have lost all 1000 (or is it 2000 now) points at SW19. He's achieved a USO semi-final, his career best, even though he was clearly not 100% fit.
I'm just saying, up until the French Open loss, Rafa was clearly the player to beat on tour.
veroniquem and the *******s are losers.
P_Agony
Banned
Oh please, you have got to be kidding me.
Murray has won 2 MS titles this year for crying out loud, and has beaten Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Del Potro all this year! He also reached a slam semi. Tsonga is not even close to that.
P_Agony
Banned
Even then, Fed has still reached a slam final and semi finals at MS events. What did Tsonga do exactly? Nothing at all. He barely bit a tanking Fed to reach the 1st (and probably last) MS semi final of the year.
P_Agony
Banned
Roddick is a semi finalist in the AO and a finalist in Wimbly.
Roddick has a dominating H2H against Djokovic this year and an even H2H with Murray.
Roddick has reached later stages at the FO than both Nadal and Djokovic.
If DP wouldn't have won a slam, I would consider Roddick the superior player of the two as far as 2009 goes.
Tsonga didn't reach a single result in a slam, didn't dominate a single top 6 player (1 fluke win over Federer does not count as dominating, especially as Fed totally tanked the match), he didn't even reach a MS final. Nothing at all. The only top 10 player that had an even worse year IMO is Simon.
grafselesfan
Banned
Honestly Tsonga is way overhyped on this board.
P_Agony
Banned
That's what she does, however she could at least come up with something better than Tsonga. He's a good player sure, but hardly has any results to support he claims. At the current rate, I doubt Tsonga will last much longer in the top 10, plus he has many point to defend soon.
Even comparing Tsonga's results in 2009 to Roddick's is insulting.
Cesc Fabregas
Legend
Agreed. Once he fails to defend his paris masters, he will fall out of the top 10.
P_Agony
Banned
Tell that to veroniquem who claims Tsonga is a better member of the top 6 than Roddick :-|. I'm surprised she doesn't want to add Verdasco given Nadal's great H2H against him.
shabby
Rookie
Err, Roddick is the biggest hype job of this decade. Tsonga doesn't even come close.
tacou
G.O.A.T.
Disagree. He's rarely touted as anything more than a dark horse.
P_Agony
Banned
So both of you agree Tsonga is overrated, then why do you say you disagree?
tacou
G.O.A.T.
because I disagree that he's overrated; I think he's very good and when his game comes together he can beat anyone. he's never given more credit than that so I don't think he's rated too highly.
How can you be #1 player in the world if get beaten at the slam and then chose not to play the next GS event?
That’s just like saying Andre is a REAL #1 in 1995 b/c he hardly played any tennis after the USO. Sampras continue to compete and barely passed him in atp points at the end of the year.
He had more rest and the fresher player than anyone on the tour during the Roger Cup. And he had a chance to regain the #2 but failed….Murray proved to be a better player who won the tourney.
He avoided TMF twice in the final at Cinci. and the USO.
Is that what you call a clear #1?
tacou
G.O.A.T.
P_Agony
Banned
You're right, but there is something Roger did and Rafa didn't. Even when Rafa dominated the first half of the season and was the clear #1, Roger kept hanging in there. Sure, he was in a slump, he lost the AO final, played craptaciular tennis since then, but he still kept somewhat solid results. Final at the AO, semis at both IW and Miami, semis at Rome. Federer said he worked on his game before Madird and he said he thinks people will notice the change. Well, he did work on his game, he served really wel the whole toruney and got that FH to work again. He finally won a title in 2009 and that was a clear statement that while he's not currently #1, he is always a threat, especially in the slams.
In 2008, Rafa's best year, he managed to win 2 slams and reach the semis in the other two. This is a superb result for any player, but it's hardly the consistency of Roger Federer, who reaches semis or better at slams since 2004. With Roger, you know that even if you can beat him, he's still going to be a pain in your face come the slams. With Nadal it's still not as consistent.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
There have been a lot of threads about top six. No one cares about 7 or 8 right now. You post on here so much you should realize this.
tacou
G.O.A.T.
wouldn't you say 2 decent masters showing and a grand slam semi is "hanging in there" for a guy who was not playing for 2 months?
P_Agony
Banned
Federer reached a slam final in the Nadal domination season.
tacou
G.O.A.T.
so a slam semi isn't good enough to qualify as "hanging in there?" if you insist.
P_Agony
Banned
It is, for now, but let's say Nadal keeps only semi final results, will that be enough for him to stay #2? It's going to be a real interesting battle between Murray and Nadal now, not to mention DP and Djokovic still wanting a piece of the pie.
For Federer, we saw how hard it was for Nadal to take the #1 spot. He needed to beat Federer in all the clay events and then finally beat him in a non-clay slam, which he did (just barely). Nadal was STILL not #1 at this point despite winning 2 slams, reached 1 slam semi, won 2 clay MS titles, while Federer didn't win a title that year yet. Nadal needed Federer to lose a few early rounds to finally get the #1 spot. Just shows you how consistent Federer is in tourneys, even more than Nadal.
Federer_pilon
Professional
really? When was the last time Nadal lost a tournament before 4th round? When was the last time Federer lost before 4th round? I recall Federer losing early in tournaments way more often than Nadal in recent years.
P_Agony
Banned
Not at slams, Federer is a grand slam beast. Keep dreaming buddy.
Federer_pilon
Professional
Your post wasn't about slams only; you mentioned non-slam events and MS events. Go read it again...you don't even know what you're writing -.-
Federer_pilon
Professional
Let me correct this for you:
Just shows you how consistent Federer is in slams, even more than Nadal.
P_Agony
Banned
My original post was a reply about the 2 periods of this season. You don't even know what your read.
P_Agony
Banned
Overall in tourneys as well. Mabny years Nadal was a force on clay only, barely showed up on HC non-slams. He won some here and there, but wasn't as consistent as Fed. Fed only recently started to become a bit weaker in non-slams.
GasquetGOAT
Hall of Fame
Can someone update this list?
Would be interesting to know where they stand before the showdown in LOndon!
Would be interesting to know where they stand before the showdown in LOndon!
GasquetGOAT
Hall of Fame
Actually I just did the update, hope its all correct.
Federer:
Against Nadal: 1 loss (AO final) and 1 win (Madrid final), overall: 1-1
Against Murray: 2 losses (Doha, Indian Wells) and 1 win (Cincy semis), overall: 1-2
Against Djokovic: 3 losses (Miami, Rome, Basel) and 2 wins (Cincy, USO), overall: 2-3
Against Del Potro: 1 loss (USO), and 3 wins (AO, Madrid, FO), overall: 3-1
Against Roddick: 0 losses, and 4 wins (AO, Miami, Madrid, Wimbly), overall: 4-0
Overall: Fed is 11-7 against top 6 players in 2009. ( )
At slams: Fed is 5-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Fed is 6-5 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 1 loss
Grass: 0 losses
Nadal
Against Federer: 1 loss (Madrid) and 1 win (AO), overall: 1-1
Against Murray: 1 loss (Rotterdam) and 2 wins (IW, Monte Carlo), overall: 2-1
Against Djokovic: 2 loss (Cincy, Paris) and 4 wins (DC, MC, Rome, Madrid), overall: 4-2
Against Del Potro: 3 losses (Miami, Montreal, USO), 1 win (IW), overall: 1-3
Against Roddick: 0 losses, 1 win (IW), overall: 1-0
Overall: Nadal is 9-7 against top 6 players in 2009. ( )
At slams: Nadal is 1-1 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Nadal is 8-6 against top 6 players at nonslams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 1 loss
Grass: 0 losses
Murray
Against Federer: 1 loss (Cincy) and 2 wins (Doha, IW), overall: 2-1
Against Nadal: 2 losses (IW, MC) and 1 win (Rotterdam), overall: 1-2
Against Djokovic: 0 losses, 1 win (Miami), overall: 1-0
Against Del Potro: 1 loss (Madrid), 2 wins (Miami, Montreal), overall: 2-1
Against Roddick: 1 loss (Wimbly), 1 win (Doha), overall: 1-1
Overall: Murray is 7-5 against top 6 players in 2009. (58.3%)
At slams: Murray is 0-1 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Murray is 7-4 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 2 losses
Clay: 2 losses
Grass: 1 loss
Djokovic
Against Federer: 2 losses (Cincy, USO) and 3 wins (Miami, Rome Basel), overall: 3-2
Against Nadal: 4 losses (DC, MC, Rome, Madrid) and 2 win (Cincy Paris), overall: 2-4
Against Murray: 1 loss (Miami), 0 wins, overall: 0-1
Against Del Potro: 0 losses, 1 win (Rome), overall: 1-0
Against Roddick: 3 losses (AO, IW, Montreal), 0 wins, overall: 0-3
Overall: Djokovic is 6-10 against top 6 players in 2009. ( )
At slams: Djokovic is 0-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Djokovic is 6-8 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 4 losses
Grass: 0 losses
Del Potro
Against Federer: 3 losses (AO, Madrid, FO) and 1 win (USO), overall: 1-3
Against Nadal: 1 loss (IW) and 3 wins (Miami, Montreal, USO), overall: 3-1
Against Murray: 2 losses (Miami, Montreal), 1 win (Madrid), overall: 1-2
Against Djokovic: 1 loss (Rome), 0 wins, overall: 0-1
Against Roddick: 0 losses, 2 wins (Washington, Montreal), overall: 2-0
Overall: Del Potro is 7-7 against top 6 players in 2009. (50%)
At slams: Del Potro is 2-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Del Potro is 5-5 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 4 losses
Clay: 3 losses
Grass: 0 losses
Roddick
Against Federer: 4 losses (AO, Maimi, Madrid, Wimbly) and 0 wins, overall: 0-4
Against Nadal: 1 loss (IW) and 0 wins, overall: 0-1
Against Murray: 1 loss (Doha), 1 win (Wimbly), overall: 1-1
Against Djokovic: 0 losses, 3 wins (AO, IW, Montreal), overall: 3-0
Against Del Potro: 2 losses (Washington, Montreal), 0 wins, overall: 0-2
Overall: Roddick is 4-8 against top 6 players in 2009. (33.3%)
At slams: Roddick is 2-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Roddick is 2-6 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 1 losses
Grass: 1 losses
Federer:
Against Nadal: 1 loss (AO final) and 1 win (Madrid final), overall: 1-1
Against Murray: 2 losses (Doha, Indian Wells) and 1 win (Cincy semis), overall: 1-2
Against Djokovic: 3 losses (Miami, Rome, Basel) and 2 wins (Cincy, USO), overall: 2-3
Against Del Potro: 1 loss (USO), and 3 wins (AO, Madrid, FO), overall: 3-1
Against Roddick: 0 losses, and 4 wins (AO, Miami, Madrid, Wimbly), overall: 4-0
Overall: Fed is 11-7 against top 6 players in 2009. ( )
At slams: Fed is 5-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Fed is 6-5 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 1 loss
Grass: 0 losses
Nadal
Against Federer: 1 loss (Madrid) and 1 win (AO), overall: 1-1
Against Murray: 1 loss (Rotterdam) and 2 wins (IW, Monte Carlo), overall: 2-1
Against Djokovic: 2 loss (Cincy, Paris) and 4 wins (DC, MC, Rome, Madrid), overall: 4-2
Against Del Potro: 3 losses (Miami, Montreal, USO), 1 win (IW), overall: 1-3
Against Roddick: 0 losses, 1 win (IW), overall: 1-0
Overall: Nadal is 9-7 against top 6 players in 2009. ( )
At slams: Nadal is 1-1 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Nadal is 8-6 against top 6 players at nonslams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 1 loss
Grass: 0 losses
Murray
Against Federer: 1 loss (Cincy) and 2 wins (Doha, IW), overall: 2-1
Against Nadal: 2 losses (IW, MC) and 1 win (Rotterdam), overall: 1-2
Against Djokovic: 0 losses, 1 win (Miami), overall: 1-0
Against Del Potro: 1 loss (Madrid), 2 wins (Miami, Montreal), overall: 2-1
Against Roddick: 1 loss (Wimbly), 1 win (Doha), overall: 1-1
Overall: Murray is 7-5 against top 6 players in 2009. (58.3%)
At slams: Murray is 0-1 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Murray is 7-4 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 2 losses
Clay: 2 losses
Grass: 1 loss
Djokovic
Against Federer: 2 losses (Cincy, USO) and 3 wins (Miami, Rome Basel), overall: 3-2
Against Nadal: 4 losses (DC, MC, Rome, Madrid) and 2 win (Cincy Paris), overall: 2-4
Against Murray: 1 loss (Miami), 0 wins, overall: 0-1
Against Del Potro: 0 losses, 1 win (Rome), overall: 1-0
Against Roddick: 3 losses (AO, IW, Montreal), 0 wins, overall: 0-3
Overall: Djokovic is 6-10 against top 6 players in 2009. ( )
At slams: Djokovic is 0-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Djokovic is 6-8 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 4 losses
Grass: 0 losses
Del Potro
Against Federer: 3 losses (AO, Madrid, FO) and 1 win (USO), overall: 1-3
Against Nadal: 1 loss (IW) and 3 wins (Miami, Montreal, USO), overall: 3-1
Against Murray: 2 losses (Miami, Montreal), 1 win (Madrid), overall: 1-2
Against Djokovic: 1 loss (Rome), 0 wins, overall: 0-1
Against Roddick: 0 losses, 2 wins (Washington, Montreal), overall: 2-0
Overall: Del Potro is 7-7 against top 6 players in 2009. (50%)
At slams: Del Potro is 2-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Del Potro is 5-5 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 4 losses
Clay: 3 losses
Grass: 0 losses
Roddick
Against Federer: 4 losses (AO, Maimi, Madrid, Wimbly) and 0 wins, overall: 0-4
Against Nadal: 1 loss (IW) and 0 wins, overall: 0-1
Against Murray: 1 loss (Doha), 1 win (Wimbly), overall: 1-1
Against Djokovic: 0 losses, 3 wins (AO, IW, Montreal), overall: 3-0
Against Del Potro: 2 losses (Washington, Montreal), 0 wins, overall: 0-2
Overall: Roddick is 4-8 against top 6 players in 2009. (33.3%)
At slams: Roddick is 2-2 against top 6 players at slams this year.
None slams: Roddick is 2-6 against top 6 players at slams this year.
Per surface:
HC: 6 losses
Clay: 1 losses
Grass: 1 losses
Last edited:
shaysrebelII
Professional
I can't really add much to this, except to give you another thank you to the OP.
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