The truth about the Roger Federer-Rafael Nadal rivalry

cueboyzn

Professional
Australian Open wrap up: The truth about the Roger Federer-Rafael Nadal rivalry
By Douglas Perry, The Oregonian
February 01, 2010, 10:57AM

roger-federer-trophyjpg-505715f961f38277_large.jpg


Sixteen career major titles; eight straight major finals; 23 consecutive major semifinals. Roger Federer is the immutable force of tennis.

Or is he? He's stayed at the top of the game for so long not just because of his supreme talent but because he's always working to adapt, to test his limits, to understand the game and how it's evolving. After winning the Australian Open on Sunday, the 28-year-old World Number One acknowledged that he's being "pushed a great deal" by the next generation of players -- and he likes it.

"I always feel tennis changes sort of every five years," he said. "When I came on tour, matches were played very differently. It was more of a bluff game, guys serving well, but there was always a weakness you could go to. Today, that doesn't exist anymore. I think that's also thanks to guys like (Andy) Murray. They've made me a better player, because I think this has been one of my finest performances, you know, in a long time, or maybe forever."

As a result of Federer's dominance -- and other players' attempts to catch up -- the game arguably has progressed more in the past five years than at any time since the introduction of graphite rackets in the early 1980s. During the Federer-Murray final yesterday, ESPN roving reporter Mary Joe Fernandez, a three-time Grand Slam finalist, cornered Ken Rosewall, whose career spanned from the 1950s into the 1970s. She asked Rosewall if Federer's "throwback" style seemed similar to his game. Rosewall almost did a spit-take. The old Aussie legends don't go in for the romanticizing of their era that the rest of us do. There's "just no comparison," he said simply.

True enough. In many ways, professional tennis today is an entirely different sport than the one Rosewall and his great rival, Rod Laver, played. We tend to relate Federer to the heroes of the '50s and '60s not because what he's doing on court resembles what they did. It's because he's broken tennis out of the modern power-game straight jacket that the wood-racket generations never had to deal with. In the '90s it appeared that brute force was what tennis would be from now on. Boris Becker, Goran Ivanisevic and Pete Sampras, all half a head taller than Laver and Rosewall on tippy-toes, kept it simple: crank up the booster engines and blast the ball past the other guy. In the second part of his career, John McEnroe, with his classic, artistic game, ended up being little more than a bystander against opponents who could have been playing linebacker for USC.

That power is now the price of admission for a professional tennis career (as Donald Young, the best juniors player of his generation, is learning). Same goes for the half-volley groundstrokes that, not so long ago, Andre Agassi and only Andre Agassi could consistently pull off. The top players of recent years have taken the revolutionary changes harnessed so successfully by Sampras and Agassi and broken them open to reveal all of their varied possibilities. The nuclear bomb exploded, and the mutants who survived are truly scary, freakish athletes.

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Rafael Nadal: Keeping with Federer has its costs.


But there's never been a mutant quite like Federer.

"I think his level is a lot more consistent in the Slams," Murray said after his straight-set loss in the Australian Open final. "Maybe, you know, in the other tournaments, he tries a few more things out. But, you know, the shots that he hits great all year round, they're still great. He just makes fewer unforced errors (in majors), I think, than he does the rest of the year."

"He's the limit at the moment; he's the No. 1 player in the world," Lleyton Hewitt, a two-time major champion, has stated flatly.

And yet not everyone is willing to concede that Federer is indeed the best ever. (I've been one of the doubters.) The knock against him is this: How can he be the greatest player of all time if he loses to Rafael Nadal most of the time? Seven-time Grand Slam champion Mats Wilander, who's always been unimpressed with Federer for whatever reason, said this when Federer broke Sampras' career major record last year: "Yes, he has the world record, but he's never going to be the greatest player of all time. ... His not-great record against Rafael Nadal is a gray cloud over his career."

That argument is wrong on so many levels. Yes, Federer is 2-5 in major finals against Nadal, but let's put that in perspective. Three of those finals were at the French Open, on Nadal's beloved red clay, the surface least suited to Federer's game. (Need we remind anyone of all the fast-court greats who never made even one Roland Garros final?) The other two losses came during Nadal's annus mirabilis and were five-set instant classics. (Need we remind anyone that Rafael Nadal also will be remembered as an all-time great?)

Much has been made of Nadal's chronic injuries. The 23-year-old wears down every year and has failed to ever reach a final at the U.S. Open, which sports a fast hard court that Federer likes so much that he has won the tournament five times. Nadal's knee tendonitis and other health problems are always presented as simply an inevitable result of his grinding clay-court playing style. But Nadal, in an attempt to match up with Federer on faster surfaces, has changed his game dramatically since those early days when he was strictly a clay-court phenomenon. In 2008, he finally beat Federer at Wimbledon (in their third consecutive final there together) and six months later he beat him at the Australian Open. He hasn't been the same since. Getting to Federer's level took a lot out of Nadal.

Nadal's injury issues make me think of a particularly cruel remark that Joe Frazier once made about his foremost rival, Muhammad Ali. Ali won two of his three fights with Frazier and, of course, now famously suffers from Parkinson's Syndrome.

"Look at him now and look at me and tell me who really won those three fights," Frazier said.

The simple fact is, it's not easy to keep up with Roger Federer. It has caused truly exceptional athletes to push themselves to their physical limits and beyond. Novak Djokovic, Andy Roddick and Juan Martin del Potro have all struggled with injuries, including at the 2010 Australian Open. Nadal, just a couple of days after declaring that he was in excellent condition and had no lingering pain in his knees, defaulted mid-match against Andy Murray in the quarterfinals. Now he's going to be out of action for four weeks, and observers increasingly wonder if he'll ever again reach his 2008 level of play. Federer, meanwhile, floats on from major to major, unimpeded by physical problems despite having to lift up all those heavy trophies. Sixteen major titles; eight straight major finals; 23 consecutive major semifinals.

Yes, Federer is 2-5 in Grand Slam finals against Nadal. But look at Nadal now and look at Federer and tell me who really won those seven matches.

-- Douglas Perry


http://blog.oregonlive.com/tennis/2...t_the_roger_federer-rafael_nadal_rivalry.html
 

Polvorin

Professional
Nice article, well thought out, well argued, interesting. Nothing will take the glory of those wins from Rafa though, even if he is paying the price.
 

namelessone

Legend
Oh God,how long are people gonna BS us about this "Nadal hurt his body just to keep up with Fed"? Nadal was nr.2 for 160 weeks,most of the time he was struggling to keep nr.2 and was at least a couple of thousand points(1 slam or so if not more)from Fed. Nadal bust his hump keeping the nr.2 position(for three and a half years) and only when he had the chance(was close enough) did he go for the nr.1.

Also,his style is what made him and broke him,not chasing after Fed. Nadal plays ****ty little tourneys like rotterdam(and 250 points will really help him catch Fed:rolleyes:),plays way too many events consecutively and with his style,that takes a major toll. And he schedules really badly. Most of the damage on his knees has been because he has has been playing like this on the pro tour(where 50% is HC) since he was 16. No other player pushed himself like this.

The article is stupid(and a bit *******ish to say the least) because it makes it seem that Nadal always had the nr.1 opportunity just around the corner whereas most of the time he was fighting to stay in the top two,be king of clay and improve on other surfaces. As Rafa said "I am probably the best nr.2 in history".

Nadal's body is breaking down because:

1)brutal playing style
2)stupid scheduling
3)way too long practices
3)playing like this for 8 seasons or so
4)he usually went deep(since 2006 or so) on his worst surface,HC,which makes up half of the tour and thus he pounded those knees on the hard concrete for many years.

One good example: Nadal had just won AO 09' by beating his body badly and what does he do while having a comfortable lead in the nr.1 position? He plays a 250 event the next week,Rotterdam,where he gets injured in the final.Brilliant. Fast forward to the clay season. Nadal has basically 4000 points over Fed at this point and has been playing with pain in his knees for the last 3 tourneys and is defending the following two slams. What does he do? Instead of skipping Madrid(which not only messed up his knees more but wasn't even a good practice for RG because of the altitude) and having almost a full month of rest before RG he plays it and we all know what happened afterwards.

Nadal's own stubbornness to play everything in sight(and with this style) no matter where he was ranked is what cost him in the long run,not him chasing after Fed as the article implies.
 

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
Oh God,how long are people gonna BS us about this "Nadal hurt his body just to keep up with Fed"? Nadal was nr.2 for 160 weeks,most of the time he was struggling to keep nr.2 and was at least a couple of thousand points(1 slam or so if not more)from Fed. Nadal bust his hump keeping the nr.2 position(for three and a half years) and only when he had the chance(was close enough) did he go for the nr.1.

Also,his style is what made him and broke him,not chasing after Fed. Nadal plays ****ty little tourneys like rotterdam(and 250 points will really help him catch Fed:rolleyes:),plays way too many events consecutively and with his style,that takes a major toll. And he schedules really badly. Most of the damage on his knees has been because he has has been playing like this on the pro tour(where 50% is HC) since he was 16. No other player pushed himself like this.

The article is stupid(and a bit *******ish to say the least) because it makes it seem that Nadal always had the nr.1 opportunity just around the corner whereas most of the time he was fighting to stay in the top two,be king of clay and improve on other surfaces. As Rafa said "I am probably the best nr.2 in history".

Nadal's body is breaking down because:

1)brutal playing style
2)stupid scheduling
3)way too long practices
3)playing like this for 8 seasons or so
4)he usually went deep(since 2006 or so) on his worst surface,HC,which makes up half of the tour and thus he pounded those knees on the hard concrete for many years.

One good example: Nadal had just won AO 09' by beating his body badly and what does he do while having a comfortable lead in the nr.1 position? He plays a 250 event the next week,Rotterdam,where he gets injured in the final.Brilliant. Fast forward to the clay season. Nadal has basically 4000 points over Fed at this point and has been playing with pain in his knees for the last 3 tourneys and is defending the following two slams. What does he do? Instead of skipping Madrid(which not only messed up his knees more but wasn't even a good practice for RG because of the altitude) and having almost a full month of rest before RG he plays it and we all know what happened afterwards.

Nadal's own stubbornness to play everything in sight(and with this style) no matter where he was ranked is what cost him in the long run,not him chasing after Fed as the article implies.
Agree with you again. The only slightly true thing/essence of this article is:
In the end, it might be 7-13, or 0-20.. in the end, it seems that Federer is ending up 'winning' this rivalry and era.
 

Markov

Semi-Pro
Oh God,how long are people gonna BS us about this "Nadal hurt his body just to keep up with Fed"? Nadal was nr.2 for 160 weeks,most of the time he was struggling to keep nr.2 and was at least a couple of thousand points(1 slam or so if not more)from Fed. Nadal bust his hump keeping the nr.2 position(for three and a half years) and only when he had the chance(was close enough) did he go for the nr.1.

Also,his style is what made him and broke him,not chasing after Fed. Nadal plays ****ty little tourneys like rotterdam(and 250 points will really help him catch Fed:rolleyes:),plays way too many events consecutively and with his style,that takes a major toll. And he schedules really badly. Most of the damage on his knees has been because he has has been playing like this on the pro tour(where 50% is HC) since he was 16. No other player pushed himself like this.

The article is stupid(and a bit *******ish to say the least) because it makes it seem that Nadal always had the nr.1 opportunity just around the corner whereas most of the time he was fighting to stay in the top two,be king of clay and improve on other surfaces. As Rafa said "I am probably the best nr.2 in history".

Nadal's body is breaking down because:

1)brutal playing style
2)stupid scheduling
3)way too long practices
3)playing like this for 8 seasons or so
4)he usually went deep(since 2006 or so) on his worst surface,HC,which makes up half of the tour and thus he pounded those knees on the hard concrete for many years.

One good example: Nadal had just won AO 09' by beating his body badly and what does he do while having a comfortable lead in the nr.1 position? He plays a 250 event the next week,Rotterdam,where he gets injured in the final.Brilliant. Fast forward to the clay season. Nadal has basically 4000 points over Fed at this point and has been playing with pain in his knees for the last 3 tourneys and is defending the following two slams. What does he do? Instead of skipping Madrid(which not only messed up his knees more but wasn't even a good practice for RG because of the altitude) and having almost a full month of rest before RG he plays it and we all know what happened afterwards.

Nadal's own stubbornness to play everything in sight(and with this style) no matter where he was ranked is what cost him in the long run,not him chasing after Fed as the article implies.
Agree, but this "chasing Fed" thing might have something (I'm just saying something little, like a few more tournaments a year) to do with his need to play basically every single tournament he has a chance of playing.
 

JennyS

Hall of Fame
Oh God,how long are people gonna BS us about this "Nadal hurt his body just to keep up with Fed"? Nadal was nr.2 for 160 weeks,most of the time he was struggling to keep nr.2 and was at least a couple of thousand points(1 slam or so if not more)from Fed. Nadal bust his hump keeping the nr.2 position(for three and a half years) and only when he had the chance(was close enough) did he go for the nr.1.

Also,his style is what made him and broke him,not chasing after Fed. Nadal plays ****ty little tourneys like rotterdam(and 250 points will really help him catch Fed:rolleyes:),plays way too many events consecutively and with his style,that takes a major toll. And he schedules really badly. Most of the damage on his knees has been because he has has been playing like this on the pro tour(where 50% is HC) since he was 16. No other player pushed himself like this.

The article is stupid(and a bit *******ish to say the least) because it makes it seem that Nadal always had the nr.1 opportunity just around the corner whereas most of the time he was fighting to stay in the top two,be king of clay and improve on other surfaces. As Rafa said "I am probably the best nr.2 in history".

Nadal's body is breaking down because:

1)brutal playing style
2)stupid scheduling
3)way too long practices
3)playing like this for 8 seasons or so
4)he usually went deep(since 2006 or so) on his worst surface,HC,which makes up half of the tour and thus he pounded those knees on the hard concrete for many years.

One good example: Nadal had just won AO 09' by beating his body badly and what does he do while having a comfortable lead in the nr.1 position? He plays a 250 event the next week,Rotterdam,where he gets injured in the final.Brilliant. Fast forward to the clay season. Nadal has basically 4000 points over Fed at this point and has been playing with pain in his knees for the last 3 tourneys and is defending the following two slams. What does he do? Instead of skipping Madrid(which not only messed up his knees more but wasn't even a good practice for RG because of the altitude) and having almost a full month of rest before RG he plays it and we all know what happened afterwards.

Nadal's own stubbornness to play everything in sight(and with this style) no matter where he was ranked is what cost him in the long run,not him chasing after Fed as the article implies.

The scheduling and playing style has definitely hurt Rafa. I can cite other recent examples when he might have been better off pulling out of tournaments:

Fall 2009: after suffering from an abdominal injury and knowing he was going to have a very short offseason in December, Nadal could have given himself two months off by skipping Beijing and Shanghai (just like Federer skipped Tokyo and Shanghai).

summer 2007: after a grueling Wimbledon, where he played three five setters, Nadal played Stuttgart. Going from clay to grass to clay to hard? What a great idea! (not)
 

JennyS

Hall of Fame
Agree, but this "chasing Fed" thing might have something (I'm just saying something little, like a few more tournaments a year) to do with his need to play basically every single tournament he has a chance of playing.

He's had to give monumental efforts just to beat Fed on many occasions. Rome 2006, Wimbledon 2008, Australian Open 2009. Even their first three French Open meetings weren't a walk in the park (tight four setters).
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Roger’s present on the tour did have an effect on Rafa’s condition. Roger win GS and set the standard, where it force Rafa to practice harder, improve his game, and play more intense to compete with Roger. He even said it was Roger that motivated him to work hard, to be the best he can if he were to challenge Roger outside of clay. Rafa’s pressure was to stay consistent after being #1, he continue to play hard and take a beating on his body. Why? B/c Roger is always a thread to reclaim the #1. The burn-out/breakdown happened when he was defending his #1, where he couldn’t keep up competing at a high level. Rafa isn’t alone, Roddick work hard, hire new coaches, losing weight, get fitter to try to figure out Roger. Now, it’s Murray’s turn, he’s being directly affected by Roger after failing to win a GS twice, and is force to work harder, improve his game to compete with Roger.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Well, I guess we must make some cruel remarks about Laver too, because he suffered a stroke and had to relearn tennis to play with his grand-daughter. Many club tennis hacks from his time have not had strokes. So they must have really won.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Also, Rafa didn’t win a major outside of clay until 2008. Before, he owned RG, and Roger owned the other 3 GS. That was not enough for rafa, for him not to be a plain clay court great, he wants to win on other surface. And who was standing in his way? Right, it was Roger. Rafa know he had to work harder, play harder if he ever wants to win(as evidence of all of his win at the majors had to go through Roger). Had he just forget about other surfaces and concentrate on clay, then he would be healthy. He try to chase Roger by trying to compete at an intense level on every 4 GS, which was the consequence of his pitfall.
 

P_Agony

Banned
I agreed with the article until the last sentecne which I disagree with - Nadal won 5 matches, Federer 2. Nadal beat Federer fair and square, and I don't think there's shame in losing to Nadal, even for a player like Fed. That said, I do consider Fed the better player due to his results, consistency, and overall record against the field (TONS better than anyone else, including Nadal).

Mats Wilander is one odd dude. When I watch him at TV he seems like the biggest Fed worshiper at times and at others just bashes him.
 

JennyS

Hall of Fame
I agreed with the article until the last sentecne which I disagree with - Nadal won 5 matches, Federer 2. Nadal beat Federer fair and square, and I don't think there's shame in losing to Nadal, even for a player like Fed. That said, I do consider Fed the better player due to his results, consistency, and overall record against the field (TONS better than anyone else, including Nadal).

Mats Wilander is one odd dude. When I watch him at TV he seems like the biggest Fed worshiper at times and at others just bashes him.

I think people should put a positive spin on Federer's losses to Nadal: Federer is so good that the only person he loses to is his best competitor! 6 of his last 8 Grand Slam losses have been to Nadal with the other two being to Djokovic and Del Potro (two excellent players).

But of course, there are those that would argue that Federer would have been a "better" player had he lost to Nalbandian, Davydenko, Gonzalez, Monfils, Roddick, Berdych etc instead of to Nadal all those times. At least he'd balance out his losses and keep positive h2h's along the way!
 

JennyS

Hall of Fame
Wilander is poor mans Nadal. I would have loved to see Roger turn him into his whipping boy.

Yeah, me too. I definitely rank Nadal higher than Wilander (two US Open semis for Nadal versus no Wimbledon semis for Wilander). I think Roger would do pretty well against him.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Wilander had game for sure but He did not have the weapons. he would of bothered Fed a bit. But no way he bothers Fed in the grand Slams. Maybe the french. Fed meets wilander at the french 4 times in a row he pulls out at least two of them.
 

JennyS

Hall of Fame
Even though Federer has gone 2-9 on clay versus Nadal, he's done better than the field has:

The field is 25-277 (.083) in sets vs Nadal on clay since Monte Carlo 2005
Federer is 11-25 (.306) in sets vs Nadal on clay in that same period

Federer has won 22.3 % more sets versus Nadal on clay than the rest of the field has!
 
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swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
I think Murray has the game to be good on clay. Just has to get more consistent. He plays lights out for 5-6 matches at the Majors and gets cold. He and these other top guns need to keep that momentum going. Its a mental thing. Also when a player beats 3 top guns in a row and has 2 beat one more its not easy. Got to keep that high going. Thats not easy. Murray did great at the Aussie.
 

Spider

Hall of Fame
I think Murray has the game to be good on clay. Just has to get more consistent. He plays lights out for 5-6 matches at the Majors and gets cold. He and these other top guns need to keep that momentum going. Its a mental thing. Also when a player beats 3 top guns in a row and has 2 beat one more its not easy. Got to keep that high going. Thats not easy. Murray did great at the Aussie.

I can see Murray crushing Rafa if he is on at the French.

I don't think Murray can crush Nadal on clay, although I am big fan of Murray, Nadal is an excellent clay court player. If both play their best, on clay, it should go to five sets and either can win it then.

However, if Nadal doesn't play as he is capable of doing, then Murray should beat him each time on clay.
 
I don't think Murray can crush Nadal on clay, although I am big fan of Murray, Nadal is an excellent clay court player. If both play their best, on clay, it should go to five sets and either can win it then.

However, if Nadal doesn't play as he is capable of doing, then Murray should beat him each time on clay.

If Murray and Nadal both play at there best on clay, Nadal wins in straight sets everytime.
 

Spider

Hall of Fame
If Murray and Nadal both play at there best on clay, Nadal wins in straight sets everytime.

No. If they play at their best, it goes to five sets on clay and then anything can happen. Murray doesn't have any problem with Nadal's game so both at their best, it won't be less than 5 sets.
 
Doesn't matter. Murray can handle the Nadal topspin and can rally all day long. Nadal cannot outrally Murray on clay.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_b8nNemGA&feature=related

If both play their best, it goes to five sets on clay.

No it doesn't. Murray's flat backhand doesn't bother Nadal on clay, Nadal has so much time on his forehand and can just run him about like a rabbit. That clip proves nothing, Murray just went for his shots because he knew he was going to lose and guess what? he still lost in straight sets....

Its an insult to Nadal to say Murray at his best is as good as Nadal on clay, Nadal is the second most accomplished clay courter in history and Murray has achieved very little on clay. I don't know why im bothering because I know you're trolling.
 

Spider

Hall of Fame
No it doesn't. Murray's flat backhand doesn't bother Nadal on clay, Nadal has so much time on his forehand and can just run him about like a rabbit. That clip proves nothing, Murray just went for his shots because he knew he was going to lose and guess what? he still lost in straight sets....

Its an insult to Nadal to say Murray at his best is as good as Nadal on clay, Nadal is the second most accomplished clay courter in history and Murray has achieved very little on clay. I don't know why im bothering because I know you're trolling.

What does being the best clay court player have anything to do with this? Federer is the greatest player ever to play the sport? Does that mean he can play Nadal better than Del Potro, Murray or Djokovic?

You fail to grasp something known as match up in tennis. Nadal's top spin game won't hurt Murray at all, and when I say, Murray plays his best game, I mean, he does everything that he is capable of doing.

These are facts for you. No one is questioning who is greater, we all know that. The question is whether this can go the distance, I think it sure can.
 

raiden031

Legend
If Fed is NOT the GOAT because of Nadal, then by that logic you must say that Nadal is better than Fed.

Every tennis historian would agree that Nadal is not better than Fed. Since tennis rankings, records, prizes, etc. are completely independent of H2H matchups, you cannot use H2H matchups as a way to gauge the best players of all time.

And even if you did want to factor H2H, since most of Fed's losses to Nadal were on clay against the 1st or 2nd best clay-courter of all time, that should not take away from the possibility that Fed is the best overall player of all time.
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Keep in mind last year Uncle Toni said if any player that is going to stop or slow down Rafa in the future, it is Murray(not Federer). Toni knows that Murray is a bad matchup for his nephew.
 

joeri888

G.O.A.T.
What does being the best clay court player have anything to do with this? Federer is the greatest player ever to play the sport? Does that mean he can play Nadal better than Del Potro, Murray or Djokovic?

You fail to grasp something known as match up in tennis. Nadal's top spin game won't hurt Murray at all, and when I say, Murray plays his best game, I mean, he does everything that he is capable of doing.

These are facts for you. No one is questioning who is greater, we all know that. The question is whether this can go the distance, I think it sure can.
Thing is, if Nadal is at his very best, he beats everyone in straights on clay. Federer beats everyone but Nadal in straights on grass, Nadal loses in 5. On hards, Federer goes 60-0 for the season, only losing 1 set to Nadal and 1 to Del Potro if he also plays his best.

My point: Nobody 'always' plays their best, and Nadal who plays good tennis on clay doesn't necessarily beat everyone on everyday. Best Nadal, yes, no doubt. But good Nadal, the one that normally shows up.. who knows, if Federer can take him on..

I agree with your assessment of Murray's chances in general though.
 

rafan

Hall of Fame
Oh God,how long are people gonna BS us about this "Nadal hurt his body just to keep up with Fed"? Nadal was nr.2 for 160 weeks,most of the time he was struggling to keep nr.2 and was at least a couple of thousand points(1 slam or so if not more)from Fed. Nadal bust his hump keeping the nr.2 position(for three and a half years) and only when he had the chance(was close enough) did he go for the nr.1.

Also,his style is what made him and broke him,not chasing after Fed. Nadal plays ****ty little tourneys like rotterdam(and 250 points will really help him catch Fed:rolleyes:),plays way too many events consecutively and with his style,that takes a major toll. And he schedules really badly. Most of the damage on his knees has been because he has has been playing like this on the pro tour(where 50% is HC) since he was 16. No other player pushed himself like this.

The article is stupid(and a bit *******ish to say the least) because it makes it seem that Nadal always had the nr.1 opportunity just around the corner whereas most of the time he was fighting to stay in the top two,be king of clay and improve on other surfaces. As Rafa said "I am probably the best nr.2 in history".

Nadal's body is breaking down because:

1)brutal playing style
2)stupid scheduling
3)way too long practices
3)playing like this for 8 seasons or so
4)he usually went deep(since 2006 or so) on his worst surface,HC,which makes up half of the tour and thus he pounded those knees on the hard concrete for many years.

One good example: Nadal had just won AO 09' by beating his body badly and what does he do while having a comfortable lead in the nr.1 position? He plays a 250 event the next week,Rotterdam,where he gets injured in the final.Brilliant. Fast forward to the clay season. Nadal has basically 4000 points over Fed at this point and has been playing with pain in his knees for the last 3 tourneys and is defending the following two slams. What does he do? Instead of skipping Madrid(which not only messed up his knees more but wasn't even a good practice for RG because of the altitude) and having almost a full month of rest before RG he plays it and we all know what happened afterwards.

Nadal's own stubbornness to play everything in sight(and with this style) no matter where he was ranked is what cost him in the long run,not him chasing after Fed as the article implies.

He needs someone to advise him. Uncle Tony should have been there for him - advising him, instead he just carries on as usual. I have said before if it doesn't work change it. Well it isn't working - as I said at the begining of the AO
 

bruce38

Banned
Excellent post by the OP. The article makes perfect sense. First 3 years Nadal has the same schedule and nothing like this occurs. Then he wins W and AO and the injuries pile up. Proof that it was due to trying to keep up with Fed. Now look where he is as Frasier might say.
 

CMM

Legend
Excellent post by the OP. The article makes perfect sense. First 3 years Nadal has the same schedule and nothing like this occurs. Then he wins W and AO and the injuries pile up. Proof that it was due to trying to keep up with Fed. Now look where he is as Frasier might say.

Absolutely! He wanted to win W and AO just because he was trying to keep up with Federer.
Chasing Federer is far more important than trying to win a GS.
 

AAAA

Hall of Fame
Seven-time Grand Slam champion Mats Wilander, who's always been unimpressed with Federer for whatever reason, said this when Federer broke Sampras' career major record last year: "Yes, he has the world record, but he's never going to be the greatest player of all time. ... His not-great record against Rafael Nadal is a gray cloud over his career."

How can Sampras even be on the GOAT shortlist when he struggled against Stich and Wayne Ferreira two guys a lesser player like Agassi beat 17 times like bongo drums without ever losing once.

How can Borg even be a GOAT candidate when he's 1-2 in Major finals against McEnroe who doesn't get nearly as much GOAT consideration as Borg.
 
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David L

Hall of Fame
Oh God,how long are people gonna BS us about this "Nadal hurt his body just to keep up with Fed"?
I've posted these quotes before, but here they are again. Nadal clearly admits he was trying to keep up with Federer and felt compelled to improve his game even more to this end. He has stated this on several occasions, so this is no longer opinion or BS.

"I had to improve," Rafa says. "Sure, having in front of me one guy like Federer, one complete player, it's always pushing me. But I always believed. I thought, I am young, I can improve a lot of things. Without that, I am Number 2, so if I improve I have a chance to be in the top position."

These days it's fashionable to say that Nadal has climbed inside Federer's head. But he needed a ladder to get there. The first rung: consistently staking out an offensive position, or, as Nadal puts it, "always trying to go more inside the court. That gives me more control of the point, no? Before I was maybe one meter behind the baseline, two meters behind." The second rung: a better serve. In his early years on tour Nadal won most of his points with preposterous saves and sterling shotmaking; his serve was strictly a point starter, a predictable slice on which bold returners such as James Blake feasted. Nadal ranked 51st on the ATP tour in serving in 2004, winning just 77% of his service games. After Roddick beat him in straight sets at that year's U.S. Open, the American star walked off the court thinking, He's not going to crack the top five if that serve doesn't improve.

It did. Nadal's serves, which were then clocked at an average speed of 99 mph, are now traveling an average of 16 mph faster -- and he regularly hits the upper 120s on the radar gun. But it wasn't just a matter of hitting the ball harder. In fact, Toni says, one reason Federer had the upper hand in 2007 was that he pushed Rafa to serve with too much velocity, and the speed of Federer's returns threw off Nadal's timing. "So we had to learn other things," Toni says. According to Roddick, Nadal now hits to both sides of the service box on his first and second deliveries. "He can kick it, he can slice it," Roddick says. "You don't really know what's coming." Nadal finished last year ranked No. 1 in the world -- and fourth in serving, winning 88% of his service games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/sl_price/05/14/federer.nadal/1.html
 
If Fed is NOT the GOAT because of Nadal, then by that logic you must say that Nadal is better than Fed.

Every tennis historian would agree that Nadal is not better than Fed. Since tennis rankings, records, prizes, etc. are completely independent of H2H matchups, you cannot use H2H matchups as a way to gauge the best players of all time.

And even if you did want to factor H2H, since most of Fed's losses to Nadal were on clay against the 1st or 2nd best clay-courter of all time, that should not take away from the possibility that Fed is the best overall player of all time.

Very convincing. Which must be why it is not contradicted by anyone..
 

namelessone

Legend
I've posted these quotes before, but here they are again. Nadal clearly admits he was trying to keep up with Federer and felt compelled to improve his game even more to this end. He has stated this on several occasions, so this is no longer opinion or BS.

I was arguing against the fact that Nadal drove himself to ruin physically just to catch Fed,not that he improved cause of Fed. Federer also said that Nadal helped him improve,it's not a one-way road,that's why it is a rivalry. Nadal needed to improve not just to beat Federer,but to have a edge on the other players as well. I don't want to sound disrespectful to Fed or anything but Nadal had problems with the other players,not Fed. Fed didn't eliminate him from USO 04'-09' or from AO 04'05'07'08',2010. That's 10 slams already in which he did not face Fed. However,since improving his game gradually,Nadal managed to snag more titles and have mostly positive h2h with the top10 players.

Sure,I suppose you could say that at one point he hope to catch Fed and surpass him(which he did for almost a year) but for most of 2005-2007 his goal was to improve in order to impose himself on the field and if he got a chance at the peak(fed),he would be ready enough to take it. Most of 2005-2007,Nadal was trying to stay at nr.2,only in mid 2008 did a takeover look possible for the Spaniard. And I think he improved quite a lot if we look at his record with the field and the fact that he has something like 400 victories in under 500 ATP matches.
 

All-rounder

Legend
I was arguing against the fact that Nadal drove himself to ruin physically just to catch Fed,not that he improved cause of Fed. Federer also said that Nadal helped him improve,it's not a one-way road,that's why it is a rivalry. Nadal needed to improve not just to beat Federer,but to have a edge on the other players as well. I don't want to sound disrespectful to Fed or anything but Nadal had problems with the other players,not Fed. Fed didn't eliminate him from USO 04'-09' or from AO 04'05'07'08',2010. That's 10 slams already in which he did not face Fed. However,since improving his game gradually,Nadal managed to snag more titles and have mostly positive h2h with the top10 players.

Sure,I suppose you could say that at one point he hope to catch Fed and surpass him(which he did for almost a year) but for most of 2005-2007 his goal was to improve in order to impose himself on the field and if he got a chance at the peak(fed),he would be ready enough to take it. Most of 2005-2007,Nadal was trying to stay at nr.2,only in mid 2008 did a takeover look possible for the Spaniard. And I think he improved quite a lot if we look at his record with the field and the fact that he has something like 400 victories in under 500 ATP matches.
Well put :D
 

beernutz

Hall of Fame
'The truth about the Federer-Nadal rivalry'?

It's not a rivalry! Nadal 0wn5 Federer.

The truth is that they have played 11 of their 20 matches on clay. On other surfaces Fed's record versus Nadal is 5-4. So, yes, it is a rivalry. If Fed was just a little bit worse clay court player than he is, he never even would have played Nadal in many of their clay court matches and their record would not look nearly so lopsided and people wouldn't be discussing the issue of their record at all.

Go look at Open era French Open winners and see how many one-hit wonders there are who won the French but never won another of the 3 slams. There have to be twice as many of these players as there are for any of the other three slams. To me that is convincing evidence that clay is fundamentally different from the other surfaces almost to the degree that singles is different from doubles.
 

P_Agony

Banned
I was arguing against the fact that Nadal drove himself to ruin physically just to catch Fed,not that he improved cause of Fed. Federer also said that Nadal helped him improve,it's not a one-way road,that's why it is a rivalry. Nadal needed to improve not just to beat Federer,but to have a edge on the other players as well. I don't want to sound disrespectful to Fed or anything but Nadal had problems with the other players,not Fed. Fed didn't eliminate him from USO 04'-09' or from AO 04'05'07'08',2010. That's 10 slams already in which he did not face Fed. However,since improving his game gradually,Nadal managed to snag more titles and have mostly positive h2h with the top10 players.

Sure,I suppose you could say that at one point he hope to catch Fed and surpass him(which he did for almost a year) but for most of 2005-2007 his goal was to improve in order to impose himself on the field and if he got a chance at the peak(fed),he would be ready enough to take it. Most of 2005-2007,Nadal was trying to stay at nr.2,only in mid 2008 did a takeover look possible for the Spaniard. And I think he improved quite a lot if we look at his record with the field and the fact that he has something like 400 victories in under 500 ATP matches.

I agree with most of what you said, but you sort of make it sound like Federer is an easy win for Nadal, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

1) If it was so easy for him to beat Fed, he wouldn't have lost to him 7 times on all surfaces.

2) Nobody has challenged Nadal on clay like Federer did (no, don't even think about saying Djokovic), and many had the chance. I believe Fed is the only active player to beat Nadal on clay more than once. Plenty of their matches were very close, such as Hamburg 08 final and Rome 06. In both matches Fed either had match points or was having huge leads. Fed has won many sets in most of their matches and made it close more times than not. Nadal's only easy match against Fed was the FO 08 final when Nadal was at his very best and Fed was at his very crap (not just in the final, the whole tourny he played like crap - god knows how he even eached that final).

3) Nadal go bageled by Fed, twice, and on clay in one of those times. You don't receive a bagel from someone who's easy to beat.

Federer is indeed a great matchup for Nadal. Fed's game suits Nadal very well and not vice versa. But Federer is still Federer, thus a tough match for anyone, and at his very best (and when he's confident) can beat anyone on any surface. I'm sure that Nadal knows he has to play his best against Fed everytime they meet to have a chance.
 

David L

Hall of Fame
I was arguing against the fact that Nadal drove himself to ruin physically just to catch Fed,not that he improved cause of Fed. Federer also said that Nadal helped him improve,it's not a one-way road,that's why it is a rivalry. Nadal needed to improve not just to beat Federer,but to have a edge on the other players as well. I don't want to sound disrespectful to Fed or anything but Nadal had problems with the other players,not Fed. Fed didn't eliminate him from USO 04'-09' or from AO 04'05'07'08',2010. That's 10 slams already in which he did not face Fed. However,since improving his game gradually,Nadal managed to snag more titles and have mostly positive h2h with the top10 players.

Sure,I suppose you could say that at one point he hope to catch Fed and surpass him(which he did for almost a year) but for most of 2005-2007 his goal was to improve in order to impose himself on the field and if he got a chance at the peak(fed),he would be ready enough to take it. Most of 2005-2007,Nadal was trying to stay at nr.2,only in mid 2008 did a takeover look possible for the Spaniard. And I think he improved quite a lot if we look at his record with the field and the fact that he has something like 400 victories in under 500 ATP matches.
Nadal obviously did not intend to ruin himself physically, but his determination to keep up with Federer pushed him to put his body through a lot more than would have been the case if there were not such a towering figure dominating the sport. The whole tour are improving together and bouncing off each other, but no one has had the impact on the game and the other players that Federer has. He was the trailblazer, everyone else tried to follow or emulate as best they could. He set the standard.

The article mentions how Federer had the upper hand in 2007 and Toni Nadal comments on how they had to change things to become more competitive in 2008, so Nadal was eliminated by Federer on several occasions. In any case, it is not only about direct elimination. It's about producing the best results. So, the person who wants to be No.1, but is not, has to produce better results than the No.1 player. That's the challenge Federer set everyone with that ambition.

The bottom line is everyone is trying to improve, but Federer made everyone try that little bit more. Without him, several players would have a few more Slams now. The No.1 player always has a target on his back and it was and is no different for Federer.
 

Talker

Hall of Fame
Nadal just overworks his body, goes to meaningless events when he should be resting.

I just think he loves to play. He enjoys the challenge of practice.

It almost seems like an addiction with him, he knows he needs rest but just can't say no to another tournament.
 

raisethe3

Rookie
I agree with this quote.

Oh God,how long are people gonna BS us about this "Nadal hurt his body just to keep up with Fed"? Nadal was nr.2 for 160 weeks,most of the time he was struggling to keep nr.2 and was at least a couple of thousand points(1 slam or so if not more)from Fed. Nadal bust his hump keeping the nr.2 position(for three and a half years) and only when he had the chance(was close enough) did he go for the nr.1.

Also,his style is what made him and broke him,not chasing after Fed. Nadal plays ****ty little tourneys like rotterdam(and 250 points will really help him catch Fed:rolleyes:),plays way too many events consecutively and with his style,that takes a major toll. And he schedules really badly. Most of the damage on his knees has been because he has has been playing like this on the pro tour(where 50% is HC) since he was 16. No other player pushed himself like this.

The article is stupid(and a bit *******ish to say the least) because it makes it seem that Nadal always had the nr.1 opportunity just around the corner whereas most of the time he was fighting to stay in the top two,be king of clay and improve on other surfaces. As Rafa said "I am probably the best nr.2 in history".

Nadal's body is breaking down because:

1)brutal playing style
2)stupid scheduling
3)way too long practices
3)playing like this for 8 seasons or so
4)he usually went deep(since 2006 or so) on his worst surface,HC,which makes up half of the tour and thus he pounded those knees on the hard concrete for many years.

One good example: Nadal had just won AO 09' by beating his body badly and what does he do while having a comfortable lead in the nr.1 position? He plays a 250 event the next week,Rotterdam,where he gets injured in the final.Brilliant. Fast forward to the clay season. Nadal has basically 4000 points over Fed at this point and has been playing with pain in his knees for the last 3 tourneys and is defending the following two slams. What does he do? Instead of skipping Madrid(which not only messed up his knees more but wasn't even a good practice for RG because of the altitude) and having almost a full month of rest before RG he plays it and we all know what happened afterwards.

Nadal's own stubbornness to play everything in sight(and with this style) no matter where he was ranked is what cost him in the long run,not him chasing after Fed as the article implies.
 
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