Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Ross K, Aug 10, 2008.
You can be fairly confident those five don't include Messi, Xavi, Villa, Iniesta or Fabregas...
Of course ^^^, and it won't include Pep G either sadly.:wink:
It turns out you aren't the only person who is sad. The papers today have photos of our fallen giants returning from Poland/Ukraine and some of them are still unable to hold back their tears. If it isnt JT it's WR or SG. They really are ridiculous.
They're saying it's Villas-Boas, which could be good for Spurs. They don't really have alot to lose, even if it doesn't work out too well and they drop a few places, it wouldn't be massive. If it does come off and he gets them into the Champions League, he'll of done well.
His style probably suits Tottenham, i'm interested to see how he handles the players this time though. A few weeks ago the Spurs players were wary of having him as their new manager, maybe he's learnt a few things and will pay more attention to forming a bond with them this time round.
Yes, it almost certainly will be AVB it seems.
However, I don't actually expect him to get us into the Champions League next season - and I certainly wouldn't have expected us to with Redknapp either, had he remained. Last season was a freak year where Chelsea and Arsenal are concerned, and it's in part due to the abject failure to capitalize on this by Harry that got him the boot. City and United should be battling it out right at the summit. Chelsea (having spent astonomical sums) and the gooners (having bought well I think) should be back to more consistently dominant ways. I also expect Liverpool to be a lot better. Even Newcastle should surely be highly regarded.
Anyhow, I think it's a broad and more long-term project that Levy wants AVB to spear-head (and, yes, ultimately it will be regular CL footy we'll be requiring.) It's also about the style of football IMO (Levy is after a tactically progressive way of playing, I reckon.) It's definitely going to be about signings procedures (Levy never trusted HR with the £) and being able to work within certain constraints and alongside Levy, Lewis, etc. There's the proposed stadium change issue, which will have an influence. And there's a few other factors besides.
Will it work with AVB? I don't know. I also don't know if it would work with Blanc, Deschamps, deBoer, Emery, Benitez, Klinnsman, or Rijkhaard - all of whom who I really would seriously consider for the job.
Strangely though perhaps, I do actually trust Levy to a high degree. Yes, he has ballsed up managerial appointments in the past. He isn't perfect. But he is very hard-headed in his transfer dealings. I think he has the best interests of fans at heart and is tuned in to their views. I think he genuinely loves the club and his role, and isn't just in it for ulterior reasons. I generally think he's a pretty tough/smart cookie TBH.
So... yes, Fena... let's hope Villas-Boas isn't a complete d***head!
He's obviously got a bit of an axe to grind, but I have to say, I agree with everything Rio says here.
I agree about Levy, he's made some mistakes but overall he's done a pretty impressive job.
As for Chelsea spending astronomical sums, well potentially by the end of the window yes. For now it's just the £32 Million for Hazard. Quite a big sum, no doubt, but one player isn't going to be enough to perform every week in the League like you need to. Last year we just never got started, every game looked difficult. Next year we won't have Drogba either, so astronomical sums do need to be spent if we want to go for the title, they've just not been spent yet
There is a good article by Matthew Syed in The Times today along similar lines. If I knew how to post it I would. One of the points he draws out is that England's possession stats for the Italy (and I think France) games were equivalent to those recorded when Championship teams play a Premiership side.
If we are more succesful in Europe will we get more Premiership teams in? Or are we already at our limit?
Could be total BLX of course as these fans ITK forum things frequently are rubbish, however...
PED, other gooners here... FYI...
Cheers for link.
Have to say S, after these Euros, very quickly and certainly from the Swedish game onwards, I feel more negative and disgruntled with England than ever.
I can now see why Liverpool fans were so unhappy with Hodgson... rather like with my club at WHL, I think England desperately need a younger, progressive, tactically flexible and astute astute man in charge who isn't essentially 4-4-2 stick-in-the-mud and actually likes possession of the football.
Is it too early to join/start a "Hodgson out" campaign!
I know it is fashionable to blame the manager in English football(& probably most countries) but the players got the manager they deserved!
Put another way, England don't have the players to play possession football,
England played the only way they knew how & nearly stole the game from Italy on penalties.
I haven't seen or heard of an English team who have played outright possession football. Maybe in 1966 but even then possession was pretty even, I think?
Hodgson shouldn't be flogged for getting the most out of what he was given.
I think you should be glad he managed to get the team working together, this was one of the most professional tournament teams to represent England for quite a while.
Good luck finding the players to play possession football, it might take 10 years.
It has taken Germany 12! (they started in 2000)
I thought Hodgson did ok, the atmosphere in the squad seemed better than it's been for awhile. It's clear we aren't a particularly good team, the stats about England having about the same possession that a Championship team does against a Premier League one doesn't really come as a surprise.
Hodgson did what he could with what he had. The only criticisms I have of him were his original squad, Downing should of been nowhere near the squad and Johnson should of been. Henderson shouldn't of gone either. I'd of played more of Oxlade-Chamberlain too, apart from that I don't think the manager got alot wrong, especially when you think he only had a week or two in the job before the tournament started.
Interesting! It would start things moving I think, Tevez and/or Dzeko could be on the move if that's the case.
You heard Madrid are thinking of offering £30 Million and Sahin for Modric? I hope you bite their hands off! Sahin is a great deep lying playmaker, but you can get a top striker in aswell. That would certainly strengthen Tottenham, if you could sort out Vertonghen in the end and get Sigurdsson, Spurs would be in great shape.
Maybe not the players he brought, look at Swansea who had a base midfield of Joe Allen (Welsh) and Leon Britton (English) and a combination of English/Welsh defenders and wingers yet were consistently among the top 5-6 all year in possession statistics across Europe, their wingers being poor at finishing and Graham being average were their downfall but it shows that English players can play possession to great effect (at home they absolutely passed City off the park for 70 minutes and we have some of the best midfielders in the world).
If someone like Roberto Martinez were to take over England I'm sure possession football would come. Barry, Carrick, Cleverley, and Wilshere would be capable of this and I'm sure other mids could do this pretty well if the system was implemented.
With Hodgson it's always going to be 'defend first' counterattacking football in a 4-4-2, if he managed Spain he would do the same thing.
Like Breaker, I don't agree re the possession point, though there's a few aspects to this topic, and it wasn't my major contention that England should be playing a Spanish-style maximum possession game.
I am indeed glad he has raised the heart, unity and I think organization too. But for some of the reasons mentioned in previous post, I simply suspect Hodgson isn't the right man to oversee what is surely required here - ie, something of a revolution.
Fena - Yes, at last Spurs seem to be getting somewhat more active, and this Sahin for Modric + 30M could be great for us. Sigurdsson I like a lot and see him as a good VdV replacement. The Vertonghen saga is trying my patience to breaking point. We dedperatey need him IMO. And I expect AVB to bring in a few more ppl in the next couple of weeks, including (hopefully) the likes of Mutinho, Hulk, D'Oliveira, etc!
I agree with you Ross. We aren't asking England to play like Spain, nor are we asking a manager to take a bunch of guys off a site and turn them into technically accomplished footballers. We are asking the manager to identify what he wants from the fuLl time professional players and then to see them respond. The idea that our players can't respond if they are given the right incentives is a strange one.
It is an error to think that we can survive if we don't play possession football. It is also an error to think that we don't aspire to play possession football. As Fena pointed out in one of his posts we will do it against less good teams and we will do it because it is to our advantage. Playing without the ball is exhausting. Controlling the ball is critical.
All of that is great when the other guys don't want the ball too..
Agreed 100% England must aspire to getting the ball.
Not saying the english players don't want to play this style but you have to pick a side that is functional.Roy has to wear that criticism but I think he did a pretty good job, some guys who might of played lost form, had injuries or didn't fit with his system. He is a bit of a fireman, he goes in, rescues teams, gets people out safe & if possible with their respect intact.
This is no criticism as he is very good at it & saved England from what could have been a disaster, he molded a team, maybe not the one you guys wanted but one that worked.
I find it ironical that I am defending Hodgson because I don't like the system of football he plays & thought it was absolute madness playing Italy without man-marking Pirlo. This guy destroys zones!
I think this was his biggest folly as he could have used Parker, it would have left a huge hole but it would have created havoc within Italy's set-up.
But this is England we are talking about & being brave in making selections is not a strength.
Rooney needed a strike, midfield partner to make him more dangerous. Gerrard & Parker ran around & ran their hearts out, brave & strong, nobody could doubt their committment to the shirt.
But where were the creators in midfield?
Until they get someone who steps up & says playmaker, you actually need 2 to make it work & even then it can be shut down as we saw with Spain last night. They had arguably 4 & created chances but still got squashed out of shape a bit.
Really looking forward to how Germany deal with Pirlo & create chances with their playmakers, so difficult to get a chance to start for them.
There is a traffic jam to get into their side & the competition is fierce.
Will be fascinating watching Germany in 2 years.
They are impatient though & believe it is their time...
Sorry for diverging onto Euro but it reflects one future direction of international football. The Premier League is a strange, tribal beast that is now populated by highly paid international footballers who have less allegiance to the cause. Every footballer wants to win for their country.
I am sure a lot of Chinese coaches, those going to coach in China are taking notes, videos etc. In 10 years there will be some more amazing Chinese players..all countries should continue developing players.
Hope England can keep up.
I am sure that a lot of what you say is true. The thing about possession is that it helps you to do all the things you are talking about. If you don't have the ball you have to chase it. The longer you have to chase it the less you are able to do when you have it. The more chasers you have the fewer creators. What you want England to do is a function of possession and their lack of it.
This debate started with the shortcomings of our defence. What we want first is the ability to control the ball defensively. People are now starting to realise that the great strength and purpose in Spain's game is defending and that possession is everything to that, together with the ability to convert defence to attack. All things being equal international football matches are won by the team that recycles the ball most efficiently. Take the ball away from danger for you and put it somewhere dangerous for them. And then when they regroup, move it again.
There won't be a revolution of change in English football unless you change the technical director at the FA, Manager & whole coaching philosophy. (as Ross K wants?)
Clive Woodward said it all before, then did it with English Rugby.
It is possible to do it but you have to survive & want to put up with a lot of non-believers for 10 years. If you can get more people to buy into it you may survive longer. Woodward did really well with his time.
To change the mindset in football, It would make too many people uncomfortable for too long. You would need lots of backing & PR to do this.
For the playing style to change everyone has to commit & buy into the system, moving the ball around will be the easy part.
I agree with what you say, it is simple coaching practice for many football, hockey & even waterpolo codes.
I wish England well.
The manager of England has to say now what he wants and expects from the players. Unless he does that there is seemingly no chance that they will adapt. They can do it.
I agree, it needs to be agreed upon from all levels. A blueprint is what is needed i'd of thought, the new football centre seems to be closer than it's been for awhile, aswell as smaller pitches for kids being discussed. The stepping stones are there I think.
Germany did it in 2000 and look where they are now. There is an awful lot of work needed to be done, and even if we get it right we probably won't start seeing results for another 10 years at least. It's something we have to commit to though.
I think there should be alot of optimism for Spurs fans. This summer is very important for them, get the right manager in and bring in Vetonghen, Sahin, Sigurdsson (excellent young replacement for van der Vaart, as you say) and then use the £30 Million on a top striker and you have the spine in place. I think most top teams have a very strong spine, the Cech, Terry, Lampard, Drogba spine through the middle at Chelsea was the foundation for the success over the last 10 years for instance.
When you think the likes of Bale, Walker, Lennon etc.. are also there, all still young. They're doing ok.
Well, I think we spotted in the Germany v Greece game that Germany are vulnerable at the back, and that their defenders could be isolated. So it proved. What was so impressive was how easy Italy made it look.
It was the moment I saw the German lineup that I knew it would be Italy. I'd of backed them more if they had Schurrle and Reus in instead of Kroos and Podolski.
The defence was a big problem, I was willing to give them a second chance after the Greece game, but they got torn apart again tonight. Lahm for the 2nd goal was awful, the other 3 are all relatively young and still learning, but he shouldn't be making errors like those in the big games.
Fantastic display by the ever-classy Italians... Low seemed to screw it up re his first half selections/strategy/whatever... I just posted about it in the Euro thread.
Of course, as Italy could only beat us on pens, this is all going to be used as proof that actually Hodgson's England aren't so awful after all.
BTW gooners, let's fervently hope Podolski can replicate this kind of eye-catching form for Arsenal next season.:wink:
Italy seem to be another well balanced side, with the huge advantage of being able to play two strikers. They have done very well to reinvent themselves after the debacle of South Africa.
A few months ago I would have said that Germany were the form team and favourites going into the tournament. The Spanish players looked drained and the inability of either of their sides to get to the final of the Champions League seemd to support that. But the Germans, for all their energy, failed to create clear chances -- the guy they wanted to score just didn't get through on goal enough. Spain, for all their lack of a centre forward, and Italy, seem to manage that more easily in the games that really count.
Fail post by yours truly! What was I thinking. At least I got it right about how much more interesting an aggressive Italy is.
In hindsight England should feel good that they held these guys scoreless for 120 minutes.
I'm pulling for Italy on sunday.
Nice to see Mario step up. Now makes me wonder if City really need RvP
So Real Madrid are having second thoughts on Modric, whilst Abramovich appears to be keeping his promise to the player and will come back in for him.
I think the fee he does go for will be very interesting. Last year we bid £25 Million, £35 Million and £40 Million. Levy says he wants £50 Million. Who gets him and at what price?
Is Modric that good?
I see Bale signed a new deal, a genuine new one do you all think or a "here's some extra cash and we can charge more for you kind of deal?"
Hammers are it seems in for Gallas, i'm very excited about that.
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It's tough to say, he's one of those neat and tidy players that do the simple things well and make them look easy. They don't really grab the attention like Messi or Ronaldo or goal scorers do. Players like him take time to be appreciated, Xavi wasn't rated like he is now back when he was young, even though he was still doing the unique things back then.
I think if Modric gets a move to one of the really big clubs and keeps doing what he does, he will get more praise.
Yeah i know what you mean about the ones who just go about their business. I am sure we can all agree he is very much int he mold of for example John Moncur.
I'd say they're pretty much twins!
I think if Modric played for Barcelona he wouldn't look too out of place alongside Xavi and Iniesta with the passing, that's probably as big a compliment as you can give him.
They're saying Real Madrid will only come up with £20 Million for Modric, Chelsea are going to offer £36 Million. Levy refuses to sell to another English club, hmm. Hopefully we don't have this drawn out all summer again.
I try not to watch Spurs too much on tv these days so i'll take the Moncs ref, I didn't realise he was that good. Now I think if he was up to Ian Bishops class then he'd displace Iniesta!
It is hard to judge some players, Hammers had a full back on loan last year George Mcartney, he seemed solid all year but nothing amazing (apart from one goal I think away at Cardiff that even he seemed suprised by) yet he won all the players awards given out amongst themselves. Just shows that sometimes the other players appreciate different things than are obvious.
OMG, Redknapp is already trying to cause AVB and Levy some problems. And what BLX the man spouts as well! :evil:
Perhaps he thinks we've forgotten he was all set to ditch Tottenham in a heartbeat for England, as well as blowing an all but wrapped up, gilt-edged chance for CL qualification with an unprecedented run of managerial ineptitude?!
As someone has answered below the article, it is indeed all so self-serving.
Anyhow, out with the old, in with the new, for better or worse, AVB is about to be grabbing the headlines as he'll be officially announced in the next few days.
As for Redknapp, expect to see him managing a middle-tier PL side pretty shortly I imagine, and doubtless not too far up North. Okay, a bit on the theoretical side or whatever, but I wouldn't be altogether shocked if the Allardyce-hating Hammers went back to HR in the event of Big Sam's dire style of football yielding a poor start to their season.
Too many bridges were burnt there for him to return, something went on with him and the legend that is Billy Bonds that caused him to not goto the club he served so well for almost 15 years, hten when he actually left the rumours have never been clear4ed of all the tranfer dealings of sales that he was entitled to a piece of.(How can that be correct that a manager of a club has a clause entitling him to a % of any players he agrees to sell?)
Afraid the stuff in the press is just the start, it'll go on for as long as he has mates to ask the right questions (or untill he gets a new job).
Rather have Zola back...............:shock:
I put in my usual disclaimer that it could very well just be so called "in the know' nonsense, but a few things I've picked up on recently are saying to be prepared for a complete jaw-dropper of an announcement or 2 at Spurs within the next 48 hrs or so - and apparently this has nothing to do with AVB or present known transfers.
That take over/investment thing I mentioned a few days ago maybe?... I just wonder if it isn't actually AVB at all and Levy has someone else in mind?... Is there some prestigious signing or 2 that no-one had envisaged? :shock:
Right. Putting together this puzzle, I reckon Stav's Kebab House on the Seven Sisters Rd is investing £4000 and providing free chips for a season; the surprise new manager will actually be Glenn Roeder (Dave, you were right all along); and the legend that is Carlton Palmer is being brought back out of retirement to grace us at WHL with his Pirlo-like skills. :grin:
That ^ kind of helps typify why for me it's between France and Holland as to who are the most divided, quarrelsome, egocentric and generally disunited team for these Euros.
And to think it was only a few years ago in S. Africa when England were right up there with the world's elite!
As you know I was in France the week before last and it was difficult not to be struck by the sheer petulance of a number of French players. That said, when you take them out of the French team, they can change. Evra seems to have been quite a stable player at at United. It was a shock that he was one of the ring leaders of France's problems in South Africa. All the same, if I was a Premiership manager I would think very hard before buying any of the current crop. From what I have seen that applies to M'Vila in particular.
Alright, so who has everyone got for today?
I'm picking Spain, but I think it'll come down to a duel between Pirlo and Xavi, whoever is given more time on the ball in space will inevitably win. Both, however, go into my tournament XI, Pirlo has been nothing short of world-class and then some these past few weeks.
I'm going with Italy, they're strong defensively, whilst they have Balotelli who can be a wild card up front. Before the tournament I didn't think Spain would win 3 titles in a row, so Italy are the last team who can stop them.
I can't pick Spain now, I have to stick with what I went for before the tournament. Besides, an Italy team with a scandal going on about football back home? They're always going to win
Interesting. What I think the real wild card here is just how defensive Italy decide to play, and how Spain decides to deal with it tactically. My best guess is that Spain will play a 4-6-0 or perhaps if the situation calls for it, a 3-7-0 and just try to break them down piece by piece. Maybe with Silva and Iniesta swapping wings and Cesc and Xavi playing it through the middle and Alonso pulling the strings from behind with Pedro alongside him, and maybe even Mata playing in "the hole". Italy can't push hard from the get-go unless they manage to score very early on or else Xavi will find himself in acres of space and he'll murder Italy. This will probably be Spain's biggest test in the past 6 years. As for Italy, this is huge match too, their biggest problem is how hard can they push Spain in the midfield, and how can they control the match? How can they get their foot in the door and get a cohesive attack going?
This should be really interesting tactically.
Nice touch about Italy winning a major tournament every time there's a major match-fixing scandal in Serie A. They came out of nowhere to win it in 2006 (I was in Milan for the final and Rome for the week that followed, amazing atmosphere) and it'll send shockwaves throughout the football world if they can do it again today.
Which begs the question, if Spain loose today, where does football go from here?
You raise some interesting points, Spain have said they will play with 3 forwards in the final. Personally I think they're bluffing and they will carry on with the way they have played all tournament. The midfield for Italy has a nice bit of creativity in there, Pirlo obviously, but Marchisio has a bit of power and drive along with a bit of creativity and passing, Montolivo is probably the odd man out in that he's a poor mans Iniesta in many ways, he will need to raise his game. I wonder if De Rossi will play in defence like he did in the group game with Spain?
Yeah whenever Italy are in trouble, they seem to win! I think they probably just don't want to go home to face the music so stay away for as long as they can
As for where will Spain go from here, well it's interesting. I don't think they can change, they're so far down the road in how they play that they probably can't change and go down a different route. I'm sure the slightly poor season for Barcelona and a loss here for Spain wouldn't be enough for them to question their ways. Will they win the World Cup in Brazil? I have my doubts, a South American team will probably win that one. Would not winning 2 major tournaments in a row be a serious blow for them? Possibly, especially when you think it will probably be Xavi's last tournament, Iniesta will be well into his 30's in 4 years. They have enough young players on the conveyor belt to replace them though I think. Besides, they'll probably win this one to make it 3 in a row
Still just savouring that wonderful, highest quality, record-breaking, aesthetically and in every way utterly brilliant victory from the Spanish.
This (Henry Winter, Telegraph) nicely sums it up really IMO.
Yes... "boring football?"... dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...
Just wanted to say well done to the Spanish and how utterly brilliant they were last night. Now and again football players of the highest quality come together in one team, the last one was the 1970 Brazil side. Would they have beaten Spain 2012 tho?
Xavi/Iniesta >>>>>>> Zidane
Quoted for truth. Iniesta was mammoth on the biggest stage yet again. Big game player, small game player - Mr. Consistency! Probably the best midfielder on the planet as of today.
As for Xavi, he's not of this planet, a more fitting title would be best midfielder in the universe. Can we clone him?
Just harking back to the "is there any hope for England?" theme there is an interesting article in The Game in today's Times. The view expressed by some German footballing experts is that it takes no more than six weeks to change the culture of a team. I think this assumes that the players want to change...
All power to Spain. They are so solid and so confident.
Changing the culture of the team is only the first step. The real problems come when you try to get players to play a style they never trained for. It's like the difference between converting Nadal into an S&V player and actually seeing good results from him rushing the net.
If you inherit a team full of hoof-and-chase players with a big lump who plays up front, telling them to control and pass the ball is easy. Getting them to actually do it competently is the hard part.
The difficulty in getting a player to calmly control and pass the ball is the real issue, because it's what leads youth coaches to push for the long ball. Getting youth players to analyze situations, find space, and play calmly takes a lot of time and effort, and the results aren't always immediate. On the other hand, telling them to play it into the channels or up to the big man is easy and works straight away.
Changing the mentality of the youth coaches is where the war will be won or lost.
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