The two remarkable 12 months of Andy Murray's career

[mike danny]

Yup, he has won pretty much everything you can win. Djokovic has no OSG, Federer has no OSG, Nadal has no WTFs. Murray has both.

His career is very well rounded.

But Federer, Djokovic and Nadal have something Murray would like more than any of those things: all 4 slam titles.

Heck, even Stan has something Murray would like more than any of those things: an AO title.

 

[mike danny]

Murray is no doubt a clearly better/greater player than Stan due to better consistency, reaching #1, YE #1, # of masters/titles etc.

but slightly weaker draws ? disagree. try significantly weaker.

Murray's toughest draw -- USO 12 - Cilic, Berdych, Djoko ~ Stan's easiest arguably -- USO 16 - Delpo, Nishi, Djoko
Stan's RG 15 - fed, tsonga and djoko >> murray's wim 13 draw (verdasco, janowicz, a spent djokovic)
stan's AO 14 - djokovic, berdych, nadal >> murray's wim 16 draw (tsonga, lacklusture berdych, first time finalist Raonic)

Beating a near 34 year old Fed in BO5 on clay was not impressive anymore at that stage. That was literally the only way Stan could ever beat Fed in a major. Also playing Tsonga in a major SF on clay is not some mighty impressive feat. Ferrer also destroyed Tsonga at RG at the same stage in 2013.

 

[abmk]

Yup, he has won pretty much everything you can win. Djokovic has no OSG, Federer has no OSG, Nadal has no WTFs. Murray has both.

His career is very well rounded.

let me puncture this over-rating of Murray.

He's won only 2 of the 4 slams.
Even Stan has won 3 of the 4.

 

[RF-18]

let me puncture this over-rating of Murray.

He's won only 2 of the 4 slams.
Even Stan has won 3 of the 4.

What has Stan won more? He's got 1 masters title

 

[mike danny]

What has Stan won more? He's got 1 masters title

Stan has won 3 of the 4 slams. Murray hasn't.

 

[abmk]

We can be as subjective as we want.

Bottom line, three tougher draws at slams doesn't make Wawrinka Murray's equal. And that is the point of this thread.

no, it doesn't. But it does narrow down the gap somewhat.

Edit - Looking at that slam comparison. You seriously are comparing the Djokovic of 2012 to the one post RG 16. The fact Djokovic made the final of USO 16 is a shock, it was the worst draw of all time, and he had no business being in that final. The first decent player he faced, he lost too. Just happened to be Stan.

Secondly, if you are going to say Djokovic was spent at W 13, then I can equally say that going through Nadal, and then Murray over two days, took the wind out of Djokovic's sails in RG final.

Just mention the names, and I am cool, if you start talking about form, then I will also. And then it gets messy.

Djoko was also playing below par due to the heavy wind in the 1st 2 sets of the USO 12 final. Hell, in the semi, even Ferrer was messing around with him in the heavy wind, winning the 1st set 6-2, before the match was postponed to next day due to light and then Djokovic took 3 sets rather easily from him in normal conditions.

Overall djoko USO 12 > djoko USO 16 by a significant distance.
Just considering the finals, not much of a difference at all.

I don't think Djoko making the final of USO 16 was a shock. His draw was a shocker though, i.e. he had it very easy.

As far as Wim 13 and RG 15 is concerned, not even close.
Djoko was clearly tired and spent in the hot weather of that wimby after that marathon vs delpo.

He had 31 W to 40 UEs that day. -9 in W/UE on friggin' grass. That is so poor.
He won 59% (40 of 68) of his 1st serve points. That is again, very poor.

As far as RG 15 final is concerned , Djokovic wasn't tired/spent. He was playing some good tennis, defending damn well. His problem was that he was passive, didn't go for it and Stan did.

 

[abmk]

What has Stan won more? He's got 1 masters title

Stan has won 3 of the 4 slams -- AO, RG, USO
Murray has only 2 of the 4 - Wim, USO

so you might want to pause before crowing about Murray's career being 'complete'

 

[RF-18]

Stan has won 3 of the 4 slams. Murray hasn't.

Okey? Murray has been #1. Stan hasnt. Murray has won 14 MS title. Stan hasn't. Murray has won a WTFs. Stan hasn't. I can keep going.

Stan is nowhere close to Murray. Sorry.

 

[RF-18]

Stan has won 3 of the 4 slams -- AO, RG, USO
Murray has only 2 of the 4 - Wim, USO

so you might want to pause before crowing about Murray's career being 'complete'

And? Does that make Stan better or something. I can make a list of twenty stuff that Murray has and waw doesn't. Their careers are so far apart its not even close.

 

[abmk]

And? Does that make Stan better or something. I can make a list of twenty stuff that Murray has and waw doesn't. Their careers are so far apart its not even close.

no, it doesn't.

Like I said.

Murray is no doubt a clearly better/greater player than Stan due to better consistency, reaching #1, YE #1, # of masters/titles etc.

But he's won only 2 of the 4 slams.
So you can stop with the ridiculous over-hyping of Murray this way :

Yup, he has won pretty much everything you can win. Djokovic has no OSG, Federer has no OSG, Nadal has no WTFs. Murray has both.

His career is very well rounded.

he hasn't won 2 of the 4 slams, 2 of the 4 friggin' slams !

 

[Deleted member 77403]

no, it doesn't. But it does narrow down the gap somewhat.

Still not enough, if anything it shows that Wawrinka is without a doubt the best of the bunch following Murray, but still not enough to be in Murray's group imo.

Djoko was also playing below par due to the heavy wind in the 1st 2 sets of the USO 12 final. Hell, in the semi, even Ferrer was messing around with him in the heavy wind, winning the 1st set 6-2, before the match was postponed to next day due to light and then Djokovic took 3 sets rather easily from him in normal conditions.

That is too Murray's credit that he is a better wind player.

Overall djoko USO 12 > djoko USO 16 by a significant distance.
Just considering the finals, not much of a difference at all.

As far as Wim 13 and RG 15 is concerned, not even close.
Djoko was clearly tired and spent in the hot weather of that wimby after that marathon vs delpo.

He had 31 W to 40 UEs that day. -9 in W/UE on friggin' grass. That is so poor.
He won 59% (40 of 68) of his 1st serve points. That is again, very poor.

As far as RG 15 final is concerned , Djokovic wasn't tired/spent. He was playing some good tennis, defending damn well. His problem was that he was passive, didn't go for it and Stan did.

That is just YOUR subjective opinion. And as I said, if you bring subjective opinions in to bring Murray down and prop up Wawrinka, I will do the same. If you just mention the draws, I am have no issue. Start throwing your opinion of Djokovic being tired for one, and fresh as a daisy for another, and I will blast it down with my opinion. We will leave it at that.

I have no issues is saying that Wawrinka had the tougher slam draws, never said otherwise, but lets not start throwing subjective opinions around. I know Djokovic sucked in Wimbledon, but in my eyes, he was also done at RG mentally. That is my personal opinion, you will not change that, like I am not changing yours. Just don't throw it around as a fact and neither will I.

 

[RF-18]

no, it doesn't.

Like I said.




But he's won only 2 of the 4 slams.
So you can stop with the ridiculous over-hyping of Murray this way :



he hasn't won 2 of the 4 slams, 2 of the 4 friggin' slams !

Yea I said pretty much everything.

If I put it this way: Outside the slams he has accomplished everything.

 

[Gary Duane]

For all his remarkable consistency and being one of the four pillars that carried the game for decade, there were two periods of a year each that immortalized the Muzziah of professional tennis.

July 2012 to July 2013 - After reaching his first Wimbledon final, he wins his first Olympic single gold, wins the USO, reached the final of AO, won Miami, won Queens and won Wimbledon.

December 2015 to November 2016 - Wins Davis Cup, reaches the final of AO, wins Rome, reaches final of RG, wins Queens, wins his second Wimbledon title, wins his second single Olympic gold, dominates the fall season winning back to back masters in Shanghai and Paris, becomes world number one, wins the WTF and then win the year ending number one trophy.

When you look at these accomplishments, he has ticked almost every box, and it is because of these insane peaks he has produced, on top of the incredible consistency, that I don't put him with the Wawrinka's of this world. For me, he might not be as great as Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, but if there is a big four, which for me there is, no one deserves that fourth spot more than him.

The Muzziah of professional tennis

For that period he is very close to 60% of games at majors too, which is a very high bar.

In terms of overall accomplishments Murray is head and shoulders over Wawrinka, yet the slam race remains 3/3. Very strange. But in there also a DC win for Wawrinka. Only DC medals missing.

 

[Gary Duane]

Come on, like you said about Roddick/Hewitt you don't have to keep defending Murray.. the guy is not a special player.

Even then the depth would have gotten him. He isn't getting past guys who play only clay tournaments.

In the past I agree, but I have always wondered why. It has to be 100% mental.

 

[RF-18]

Talking about peak level, what about Murrays performance at London 2012 on grass against fed the man himself, beating him in three? Flawless performance. And also beating Djokovic in the SFs in straights.

I don't see anyone talking about that.

 

[tennisaddict]

Talking about peak level, what about Murrays performance at London 2012 on grass against fed the man himself, beating him in three? Flawless performance. And also beating Djokovic in the SFs in straights.

I don't see anyone talking about that.

That is because Fed was done after the SF marathon against Delpo while Murray had it easy in the other , smart**

 

[killerboi2]

Talking about peak level, what about Murrays performance at London 2012 on grass against fed the man himself, beating him in three? Flawless performance. And also beating Djokovic in the SFs in straights.

I don't see anyone talking about that.

Federer was tired is the typical response but I was recently rewatching some highlights of the Fed/Del Potro match recently and it was mostly serve fest, with points being ended very quickly (the match was boring as hell imo) Del Potro also beat Djokovic in his next match and his fitness levels are awful. How tired could Federer really have been?

 

[tennisaddict]

Federer was tired is the typical response but I was recently rewatching some highlights of the Fed/Del Potro match recently and it was mostly serve fest, with points being ended very quickly (the match was boring as hell imo) Del Potro also beat Djokovic in his next match and his fitness levels are awful. How tired could Federer really have been?

LOL. it was a 4.5 hour mentally excruciating 3-6, 7-6 (5), 19-17 victory for Fed.

 

[killerboi2]

LOL. it was a 4.5 hour mentally excruciating 3-6, 7-6 (5), 19-17 victory for Fed.

So explain how Del Potro, who has awful fitness levels was able to win Djokovic after the match?

 

[tennisaddict]

So explain how Del Potro, who has awful fitness levels was able to win Djokovic after the match?

Because Murray was 5X the better grass court player pre-2014 than Djokovic.

 

[RF-18]

That is because Fed was done after the SF marathon against Delpo while Murray had it easy in the other , smart**

I knew this would come up. Doesn't take away the fact that Murray was like a man possessed that day. Everything was clicking. He was pounding the ball. Federer had no chance. Lets give cred where its due.

Also beat Djoko in straights.

 

[tennisaddict]

I knew this would come up. Doesn't take away the fact that Murray was like a man possessed that day. Everything was clicking. He was pounding the ball.
Also beat Djoko in straights.

Djok was ordinary after USO 2011 till Wimb 2014. Murray beat Djok several times during that time frame.

 

[killerboi2]

Because Murray was 5X the better grass court player pre-2014 than Djokovic.

Point is, Del Potro wasn't tired. And the only reason the match went on for so long was because of the serve fest. Murray being better player on grass. Murray being better than Djokovic on grass is also debatable.

 

[RF-18]

Because Murray was 5X the better grass court player pre-2014 than Djokovic.

Why would that change post 14? Just cause Djokovic won 2 more wimbledons?

Murray was the better player on the day, nothing suggested that he was 5X times the better grass courter ''pre 14''(lol what) just cause he beat him.

 

[RF-18]

Djok was ordinary after USO 2011 till Wimb 2014. Murray beat Djok several times during that time frame.

The thing is, I'll give the credit to Murray instead. Ordinary or not, Djokovic was still majority of the time the #1 player of the world and was winning slams, reaching finals, winning WTFs etc etc.

So, I'll leave the excuses for you

 

[tennisaddict]

The thing is, I'll give the credit to Murray instead. Ordinary or not, Djokovic was still majority of the time the #1 player of the world and was winning slams, reaching finals, winning WTFs etc etc.

So, I'll leave the excuses for you

If at Wimb 2018 Andy beats Djok no one would call it a upset , even though Djok has won 2 more wimbledons after 2012. This would have been the case even if Andy did not win 2016.

Well, a past prime 31/32 year Fed won slams, WTF during the USO11-Wimb 14 period. I wouldn't read much into Djok's wins during that time frame.

 

[RF-18]

If at Wimb 2018 Andy beats Djok no one would call it a upset , even though Djok has won 2 more wimbledons after 2012. This would have been the case even if Andy did not win 2016.

Well, a past prime 31/32 year Fed won slams, WTF during the USO11-Wimb 14 period. I wouldn't read much into Djok's wins during that time frame.

No one would call it an upset either if Djokovic beat Nadal at RG from 11-16, in 15 no one was surprised, doesn't mean he is Better on clay. Just that he is capable of doing it.

Fact is Murray won with incredible performances, and nothing is changing that. Just like Djokovic leads fed at wimbledon.

 

[tennisaddict]

No one would call it an upset either if Djokovic beat Nadal at RG from 11-16, doesn't mean he is Better on clay. Just that he is capable of doing it.

Fact is Murray won with incredible performances, and nothing is changing that. Just like Djokovic leads fed at wimbledon.

I don't know what your point is really. Djok was no monster in grass before 2014-16. LOL @ the comparison with Nadal.

 

[RF-18]

I don't know what your point is really. Djok was no monster in grass before 2014-16. LOL @ the comparison with Nadal.

TBH I don't know what your point is either with the whole "if Andy beats Novak at W 18 no one would call it a upset" and.the rest aswell.

Well pre 2014 He had one title already, multi SFs and a final. It depends what you see as a monster but I'd say Novak was already great on the surface with that track record.

 

[tennisaddict]

TBH I don't know what your point is either with the whole "if Andy beats Novak at W 18 no one would call it a upset" and.the rest aswell.

Well pre 2014 He had one title already, multi SFs and a final. It depends what you see as a monster but I'd say Novak was already great on the surface with that track record.

The point is Djok is not that great a grass player in the h2h against Murray or in general, relative to other surfaces.

Hence Murray beating Djok in straight sets was a much easier passage than the 4.5 hr battle Fed had to endure.

If you still cannot understand, I give up.

 

[RF-18]

The point is Djok is not that great a grass player in the h2h against Murray or in general, relative to other surfaces.

Hence Murray beating Djok in straight sets was a much easier passage than the 4.5 hr battle Fed had to endure.

If you still cannot understand, I give up.

Okey lets pretend you are right, Djokovic is not that great on grass against Murray and Murray is always having it easy against him, to whoms credit is that then? Certainly murrays. Why should we punish him cause he was able to handle Djokovic that day while Federer was playing a 4 hour match against delpo.

 

[mike danny]

Okey lets pretend you are right, Djokovic is not that great on grass against Murray and Murray is always having it easy against him, to whoms credit is that then? Certainly murrays. Why should we punish him cause he was able to handle Djokovic that day while Federer was playing a 4 hour match against delpo.

Proof that name of the opponent isn't everything. Murray got Djokovic, but Fed got the tougher opponent in Delpo that day. Looking at the names, you would think it was Murray who had it hard, but you actually have to watch the matches to understand that that wasn't even close to being true.

 

[Mainad]

But Federer, Djokovic and Nadal have something Murray would like more than any of those things: all 4 slam titles.

Heck, even Stan has something Murray would like more than any of those things: an AO title.

Don't be too sure about that. Murray once said that he valued his OSGM even over his Wimbledon title!

 

[RF-18]

Proof that name of the opponent isn't everything. Murray got Djokovic, but Fed got the tougher opponent in Delpo that day. Looking at the names, you would think it was Murray who had it hard, but you actually have to watch the matches to understand that that wasn't even close to being true.

I'm not speculating who was the tougher opponent. That's entirely speculative. There are a bunch of facotrs in play there and I have spoken about those factors before.

Why should we punish Murray for a straight set win and being more fresh than fed in the final. That's entirely to his credit. It's not his fault Federer was struggling against delpo on his supposed best surface. Finish the job earlier if you want to be fresh as possible for your next match, if you can't, then too bad.

 

[tennisaddict]

I'm not speculating who was the tougher opponent. That's entirely speculative. There are a bunch of facotrs in play there and I have spoken about those factors before.

Why should we punish Murray for a straight set win and being more fresh than fed in the final. That's entirely to his credit. It's not his fault Federer was struggling against delpo on his supposed best surface. Finish the job earlier if you want to be fresh as possible for your next match, if you can't, then too bad.

No one says Fed should have won the Olympics . But it is clear for neutral observers not to judge Murray's or Federer's performance based on the scoreline , since the match was not played on even terms.

 

[mike danny]

I'm not speculating who was the tougher opponent. That's entirely speculative. There are a bunch of facotrs in play there and I have spoken about those factors before.

Why should we punish Murray for a straight set win and being more fresh than fed in the final. That's entirely to his credit. It's not his fault Federer was struggling against delpo on his supposed best surface. Finish the job earlier if you want to be fresh as possible for your next match, if you can't, then too bad.

No, it's not speculative. Delpo was by far the tougher opponent as evidenced by what happened in the bronze match afterwards. A completely exhausted Delpo defeated a more rested Djokovic in their bronze match in straight sets.

 

[killerboi2]

No, it's not speculative. Delpo was by far the tougher opponent as evidenced by what happened in the bronze match afterwards. A completely exhausted Delpo defeated a more rested Djokovic in their bronze match in straight sets.

I don't even remember the match but how exhausted could he have been if he's beating Djokovic? I don't think Federer or Del Potro were really exhausted. If Federer can go through multiple five setters and outlast Nadal in a five setter in 2017, how can he be tired after a 3 setter serve fest in 2012? It doesn't really make sense. Fed and Djokovic fans, stop making stupid excuses and just accept the beatings that Andrew Barron Murray has occasiounly handed out.

 

[True Fanerer]

I really don't understand the Murray bashing. As a fed fan it shouldn't even matter to any of us that he won the gold medal. Federer had just beaten him for #17 at Wimbledon right before that. Obviously Murray is a great grass court player. I'm not going to put down his performance in the Olympics when he had Djokovic as an opponent who has beaten Fed twice in finals there. He deserved the gold medal. There's too much BS about Muzz flying around. I don't understand it.

 

[Mainad]

I really don't understand the Murray bashing. As a fed fan it shouldn't even matter to any of us that he won the gold medal. Federer had just beaten him for #17 at Wimbledon right before that. Obviously Murray is a great grass court player. I'm not going to put down his performance in the Olympics when he had Djokovic as an opponent who has beaten Fed twice in finals there. He deserved the gold medal.

He had both Djokovic and Federer as opponents and beat them both back to back.

There's too much BS about Muzz flying around. I don't understand it.

I first joined this forum in order to flush it away and I've never fully understood it either.

 

[True Fanerer]

He had both Djokovic and Federer as opponents and beat them both back to back.

Exactly. I was referring to their semi's.

 

[abmk]

Yea I said pretty much everything.

If I put it this way: Outside the slams he has accomplished everything.

slams are the biggest in tennis and Murray has won only 2/4 slams.

 

[abmk]

I don't even remember the match but how exhausted could he have been if he's beating Djokovic? I don't think Federer or Del Potro were really exhausted. If Federer can go through multiple five setters and outlast Nadal in a five setter in 2017, how can he be tired after a 3 setter serve fest in 2012? It doesn't really make sense. Fed and Djokovic fans, stop making stupid excuses and just accept the beatings that Andrew Barron Murray has occasiounly handed out.

the federer-delpo match in Oly 12 was 4.5 hrs.

the 5-setters in AO 17 were ~ 3 hrs long. you know math and you can get the difference ?

he had one 5-setter vs nishi, a day's break and then a short match vs zverev
he had one 5-setter vs stan, 2 days break and then took out Nadal.

federer was dead tired and played one of his worst ever matches on grass in that Oly final, if not his worst from 2003 onwards.
He had 24 winners to 31 UE (-7). that's cr*p on grass and beyond cr*p for federer.

Murray played really well , but form was no better than the Wimbledon final a month before.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

I have had this discussion before with one or two Fed fans. And in essence it is done in such a way that Djokovic is damned if he wins a slam, and damned if he doesn't. Because if he wins, it was weak era, but if the other guy beats him, then is a strong slam win for that person. So all this strong era weak era is relative to who you are, and Djokovic loses no matter the result.

That's not really true.

Usually that comment is made in relation to Djokovic in comparison to Federer and Nadal.

And to some extent it is true. In 2011 Djokovic had a phenomenal year, and I think everyone believes that was maybe the strongest individual year of ANY of the Big 4. But by the same token, his play during the two years from 2014 Wimby through 2016 RG very much benefited from injuries sustained by Federer and Nadal. In essence, his run more or less showed he was better than Murray, which we all knew anyway. So while those wins count and add to his resume, strictly as compared to Federer and Nadal they don't move the needle as much for me.

 

[abmk]

Still not enough, if anything it shows that Wawrinka is without a doubt the best of the bunch following Murray, but still not enough to be in Murray's group imo.

I'm not sure about being put in another group, but I will say that Murray is ahead by a significant distance as of now.

That is too Murray's credit that he is a better wind player.

umm, Murray was pretty competent in the wind and handled those conditions well . But djokovic was below par and didn't do so -- vs both Murray and Ferrer- you know that makes him not so tough opponent in those conditions.
which is why I said that although USO 12 djokovic> USO 16 overall, clearly ...USO 12 final djoko ~ USO 16 final djoko (similar level)

That is just YOUR subjective opinion. And as I said, if you bring subjective opinions in to bring Murray down and prop up Wawrinka, I will do the same. If you just mention the draws, I am have no issue. Start throwing your opinion of Djokovic being tired for one, and fresh as a daisy for another, and I will blast it down with my opinion. We will leave it at that.

I have no issues is saying that Wawrinka had the tougher slam draws, never said otherwise, but lets not start throwing subjective opinions around. I know Djokovic sucked in Wimbledon, but in my eyes, he was also done at RG mentally. That is my personal opinion, you will not change that, like I am not changing yours. Just don't throw it around as a fact and neither will I.

This forum has a lot of subjective opinions. And nothing wrong with subjective opinions.
You don't have to accept mine, just as I don't have to accept yours.

I was stating my opinion - as I saw it. I don't have an agenda to specifically bring Murray down or prop Stan up.

 

[killerboi2]

the federer-delpo match in Oly 12 was 4.5 hrs.

the 5-setters in AO 17 were ~ 3 hrs long. you know math and you can get the difference ?

he had one 5-setter vs nishi, a day's break and then a short match vs zverev
he had one 5-setter vs stan, 2 days break and then took out Nadal.

federer was dead tired and played one of his worst ever matches on grass in that Oly final, if not his worst from 2003 onwards.
He had 24 winners to 31 UE (-7). that's cr*p on grass and beyond cr*p for federer.

Murray played really well , but form was no better than the Wimbledon final a month before.

Length of the match isn't everything. An hour walking is less tiring than half an hour sprinting. Fed vs Del Potro was a serve fest and clearly Del Potro couldn't have been that tired if he's beating Djokovic. Don't you see how it keeps happening against Murray? How these top players keep supposedly keep playing their "worst" matches against him and keep playing beyond crap. Djokovic world tour final for example after he had just slaughtered Nishikori. It's not all them playing bad and Murray on form is capable of beating the best (this is what Federer and Djokovic fans for some reason refuse to accept and just have to make up some half baked excuse)

 

[FrontHeadlock]

But Federer, Djokovic and Nadal have something Murray would like more than any of those things: all 4 slam titles.

Heck, even Stan has something Murray would like more than any of those things: an AO title.

Agreed. The major titles are worth more and are "must-win" titles.

The OSG and WTF are important titles, and are nice to have, but NOBODY should take one over rounding out the Career Grand Slam.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

That's not really true.

Usually that comment is made in relation to Djokovic in comparison to Federer and Nadal.

And to some extent it is true. In 2011 Djokovic had a phenomenal year, and I think everyone believes that was maybe the strongest individual year of ANY of the Big 4. But by the same token, his play during the two years from 2014 Wimby through 2016 RG very much benefited from injuries sustained by Federer and Nadal. In essence, his run more or less showed he was better than Murray, which we all knew anyway. So while those wins count and add to his resume, strictly as compared to Federer and Nadal they don't move the needle as much for me.

Yeah, I have heard this all before, and just reinforces my point. Djokovic is damned if he wins and damned if he doesn't.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

This forum has a lot of subjective opinions. And nothing wrong with subjective opinions.
You don't have to accept mine, just as I don't have to accept yours.

I was stating my opinion - as I saw it.

Then you and I have nothing more to say on the matter. You said your opinion, I said mine. I accept your opinion, don't agree, but accept it, since it is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. This discussion is now over.

 

[RF-18]

slams are the biggest in tennis and Murray has won only 2/4 slams.

Slams is the biggest and no one has said anything different but there are tournaments outside it aswell that are career defining. And on that note Murray has accomplished everything.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Yeah, I have heard this all before, and just reinforces my point. Djokovic is damned if he wins and damned if he doesn't.

Not at all. The tennis community regards his 2011 season as a masterclass of tennis.