The Tyranny of Metrics – a Defence of Federer

By the way, it's not 17 to 4, it's 9, 8, and 4.
There is no 'Djokodal' or 'Nadovic', no cheesy 'Fedal' and less flashy 'Fedovic'.
As such a famous group, it is understood that it is referred to the Big 3, but you cannot compare numbers of one of them against the other two as if they were the same, it is not correct nor does it work like that.
Player A, B, C, must be compared one by one, as individual beings, it is the only way to do factual analysis, and thus the extrapolation of data will be objective.
8-B
 
By the way, it's not 17 to 4, it's 9, 8, and 4.
There is no 'Djokodal' or 'Nadovic', no cheesy 'Fedal' and less flashy 'Fedovic'.
As such a famous group, it is understood that it is referred to the Big 3, but you cannot compare numbers of one of them against the other two as if they were the same, it is not correct nor does it work like that.
Player A, B, C, must be compared one by one, as individual beings, it is the only way to do factual analysis, and thus the extrapolation of data will be objective.
8-B
Fair play; I did think about this as I made my big post as it happens... I figured old Djoker and Nadal each being at least twice as good as old Fed still stinks.
 
Fair play; I did think about this as I made my big post as it happens... I figured old Djoker and Nadal each being at least twice as good as old Fed still stinks.
It sucks it's true, but as a fan of Nadal I would prefer him to be a year younger than the Serb but it's not possible, and each one of us, fans, I hope, more of tennis than of a certain player, let's know how to accept the facts -without giving up the debate, of course- and make our small contribution to the forum with respect and intellectual height.
At least, that's all I ask, even if I may not like a certain conclusion in the analysis.
;)
 
He was forced to evolve as a baseliner because of the homogenization of the court surfaces and string technology.
He was always a base liner. Having a one-handed backhand and venturing into the net a few times a match was what lead to people mistakenly labeling him an allcourter.
 
I agree. Metrics are tyrannical. That's why Pete and Borg are superior to Fed
I guess the argument can be made both ways. lol
If we abandon metrics all together, we can just say that Wawrinka and Safin are two of the best players ever. Why the hell not, eh?
 
He was forced to evolve as a baseliner because of the homogenization of the court surfaces and string technology.
Unfortunately some people haven't watched or followed Federer during his early career doesn't know he can play serve and volley. With all the tools- great serve, balance, touch and appoach, he was well adept to play attacking tennis like Sampras. No way he could have beaten Sampras in 2001 if he didn't have the full package to play serve/volley. He won Wimbledon in 2003 playing serve and volley. The court was still fast enough for Federe's like and he enjoy this condition. The problem is the ATP later start to slow down the court(even the grass) and Federer had to adapt to play baseliner and ditch the net-rush game.

Since he was so dominant in the homogenious surface, people falsely believe he isn't equip to play serve/volley on fast court but simply a pure baseliner like the rest of the field. The truth is, Federer is at his best on fast, low bounce courts. Just because he is so successful on slow courts doesn't mean that he was benefitted due to homogenious surface(that only holds true for Djokodal).
 
“The most characteristic feature of metric fixation is the aspiration to replace judgment based on experience with standardized measurement.”

We live in an era of technocratic numbers men and an endlessly proliferating class of middle management bean counters who have elevated numbers and statistical data to the sine qua non of knowledge and objective truth. “Numbers don’t lie” they tell us. “You can’t argue with the data” we are assured. “Don’t worry, very sharp statisticians have collected and interpreted this data so your opinion is no longer required,” we are warned by men in grey flannel suits and are expected to slink back to our cubicles or howl out our rage only in the sealed privacy of our cars in the silence of underground car parks. But at some level we know it is a con. We can plainly see that the guy with the clipboard and glib set of numbers doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is missing the point. He got his position through nepotism or brown-nosing and his experience is solely theoretical. He never spent a day in the trenches – on a sales pitch, in front of a classroom, in the operating theatre or on a drug bust. His numbers are merely rationalisations for a course of action that has been decided in advance by head office. However, the delusion that experience, instinct and professional judgement can be junked and replaced by a stack of contextless spreadsheets without losing something of crucial significance is the particular madness of our age.

I recently read The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Z. Muller and some of the sneering, gleeful and premature relegation of Federer’s achievements and career by perennial nay-sayers reminded me of the central arguments of his book. To sum it up crudely – measurement is often not a replacement for judgement. In his words, “Metric fixation is the persistence of these beliefs despite their unintended negative consequences when they are put into practice. It occurs because not everything that is important is measureable, and much that is measurable is unimportant.” The thesis of his book is that the managerialist obsession with measurement and data very often distorts the object that is being measured as criteria are adjusted to suit preferred outcomes or people and organisations, rationally, adjust behaviour or priorities in order to game the system. Here's a key passage:

“To demand or preach mechanical precision, even in principle, in a field incapable of it, is to be blind and to mislead others," as the British liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin noted in an essay on political judgement. Indeed what Berlin says of political judgement applies more broadly: judgement is a sort of skill at grasping the unique particularities of a situation, and it entails a talent for synthesis rather than analysis, "a capacity for taking in the total pattern of a human situation, of the way in which things hang together." A feel for the whole and a sense for the unique are precisely what numerical metrics cannot supply.”

So it is with tennis. What are the definitive criteria for measuring greatness? They are arbitrary – not even rising to the level of conventional. In recent years it has become grand slam results. But what is or is not a grand slam has changed over time with commercial pressures, ease of international travel etc. In any case, some say the key metric is the record against key rivals, or number of weeks at number one, or year end number ones, or most dominant streak (or in some cases the possession of functioning tear ducts and the complete range of human emotion). For others it is an experiential thing, “I’ve seen player X’s game and it is closest to my vision of the Platonic form of tennis.” It could be a combination of all of these in whatever proportions you suit your preferences. In the end it’s whatever you want it to be. Whatever metrics you choose will be imperfect. Why? Because by the nature of metrics - compilers have to make an arbitrary decision about what is important enough to be measured and what is to be left out. Once this subjective choice has been made then we are told what has been selected as being worth measuring is objective. And so Federer fans are told, “No, the thing you value most is not relevant or important. It does not fit into my metric and therefore is illegitimate.” So goes the tyranny of managerialism but this does not make it correct

Of course, sponsors and advertising imperatives will demand metrics and simple, axiomatic slogans masquerading as common sense in order to flog watches, sneakers, racquets etc. This will always murder the past in order to move product and put bums on seats in the present. They don’t care about Sampras or Agassi, Laver or Rosewall and nor will they care about Federer fairly soon - once his product moving potential has been wrung out. He will be fitted with a narrative that privileges the present product movers. It has already begun on this board. But it won’t be true; it will just be expedient. Many will accept the revisionism because they heard it many times and there were some numbers on the TV. There is an old saying in marketing, “Everyone thinks that advertising works – on other people.”

The human element of tennis and the visceral judgement about what excites you on a tennis court will never be captured in a spreadsheet. This is what makes the game great. An imperfect analogy is acting. I like Robert DeNiro you prefer Tom Hanks. Who is correct? Should we check their trophy room to decide who is greater. The point is moot. So it is with Federer. Were he alive still, would David Foster Wallace have disowned his famous essay on Federer as result of recent victories by Nadal? Was his judgement faulty? Not at all. I cheered for Djokovic on the weekend and commend his victory as I have with Nadal but they simply do not move me in the way Federer did. They do not walk the tightrope and make themselves vulnerable in the way he did. He played in a way that made “the jaw drop and eyes protrude and sounds are made that bring spouses in from other rooms to see if you’re OK.” Deep down you sense that other top players even highly successful ones (some have even admitted it) would love to have his game - to play with that creativity, freedom and swashbuckling panache. His achievements will live on in the record books but his game will live on in our hearts and memories. Exhilarating and undiminished in a way that quickens the pulse and lightens the spirit and escapes the chains of numerical pedantry. Thankfully, Foster Wallace put his judgement and feeling into words for the rest of us.

"Genius is not replicable. Inspiration, though, is contagious, and multiform — and even just to see, close up, power and aggression made vulnerable to beauty is to feel inspired and (in a fleeting, mortal way) reconciled."

FJiboMQXIAIcICK.jpg:large
@Russeljones

I read the OP. It is well written and full of platitudes that make for a soothing read.

I don't see though how the crux of my posts on this thread are mistaken. There seems to be a distaste and caricaturization of metrics and statistics as something that "men in grey flannel suits" with "clipboards" use to pommel the creative child within us into submission while again forgetting that:

a) If this is true, Federer fans have been such flannel suited oppressors for years
b) The use of statistics and metrics is a vital aspect of understanding reality. The OP cites a passage from Muller writing on what he considers synthesis, essentially the evaluation of talent and the intangibles alongside metrics. The OP, and perhaps Muller himself, seem to place more emphasis on the "intangible" aspect for whatever reason, forgetting that BOTH are crucial to the pursuit of truth.
c) There seems to be a sort of unspoken assumption here that Nadal and Djokovic fans, or indeed any fans anywhere, don't enjoy similar feelings of awe around their champions, even if expressed differently.

Ultimately, Federer's style is beautiful and graceful. It is also heavily romanticized to the point of concern. And while that will never be taken from him, we must never denigrate the beauty of the play of other champions (a.k.a. LOL Edberg's forehand, LOL Sampras power), nor minimize their achievements. As Federer fans expected (and still do expect) Sampras fans to bow before their hero, they must also do the same to his successors, or themselves concede that greatness is anyone's game. Otherwise they risk painfully obvious hypocrisy.
 
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Why were numbers used to prove Federer's greatness for nearly two decades?
Why were numbers ridiculed as hollow, deceptive, and a function of “weak era” for years and years and years?

But now they’re the all important metric and “current weak era” protestations are just salt.

It works both ways depending on who you support. I believe that if you can’t see this you’re probably even more blinded by bias than you think.

For me it was never about numbers alone, but the whole package of lethal power, unparalleled dominance, peak greatness, aesthetic beauty, creative shot making, unceasing aggression, even on-court demeanor and personality (which got better w age, unlike his game).

All this make his game the greatest I’ve ever seen. Novak could play 20 more years and win 30 more slams and his peak years - his game at its best- would never eclipse Fed’s for me.

To each his own. But he’s the best tennis player I’ve ever seen and the GOAT to me.
 
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Why were numbers ridiculed as hollow, deceptive, and a function of “weak era” for years and years and years?

But now they’re the all important metric and “current weak era” protestations are just salt.

It works both ways depending on who you support. I believe that if you can’t see that you’re probably even more blinded by bias than you think.

For me it was never about numbers alone, but the whole package of lethal power, unparalleled dominance, peak greatness, aesthetic beauty, creative shot making, unceasing aggression, even court demeanor and personality (which got better w age, unlike his game).

All this make his game the greatest I’ve ever seen. Novak could play 20 more years and win 30 more slams and his peak years - his game at its best- would never eclipse Fed’s for me.

To each his own. But he’s the GOAT to me.
So essentially today's hypocrisy is justified by the past.
Interesting.
 
So essentially today's hypocrisy is justified by the past.
Interesting.
No - you’re putting words into my mouth. Please don’t do that.

Today‘s hypocrisy is just like the past. Doesn’t make it right.

It just makes protestations like the one you presented hollow to me
in light of the arguments that were constantly brought against Fed by his detractors when he did have the numbers.

People are biased. At this point here on TTW we like who we like and use arguments to prop up our heroes when they benefit us.

All fan bases are similar in this regard. To say otherwise is - I think - special pleading and near-sighted.
 
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You lot need to make up an alternate scoring system where points are given for artistic merit, then regrade all of Federer's matches. That should provide an endless supply of copium.

In the real world of tennis, he's the 3rd wheel. Dominated by his more talented peers, he couldn't keep the headstart he built up during the weakest era.
Sorry, but I can't resist - this is one of the classic, recurring comedy tropes on this board and as the kids like to say a huge "self own." In your counter argument to the proposition that an over emphasis on standardised measurement does not fully capture reality and smuggles on board subjectivity your first tactic is to reach for the utterly subjective "weak era" argument (a TTW gas giant made up of equal parts resentment and folk-tale that has attained the appearance of granite-like solidity over the years). It has been the standard plaint of the Fed hater for nearly two decades now but isn't getting any truer with age. This is especially embarrassing because from here if you instantly pivot to the "numbers don't lie" position you look like an even bigger hypocrite. Tough spot you've put yourself and your homies in. Can you folks continue to hold on to the cherished weak era hoax but still maintain that you are motivated by nothing other than a disinterested thirst for objective truth?
293089551_10166819167645494_3229649651524669699_n.jpg
 
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@Russeljones

I read the OP. It is well written and full of platitudes that make for a soothing read.

I don't see though how the crux of my posts on this thread are mistaken. There seems to be a distaste and caricaturization of metrics and statistics as something that "men in grey flannel suits" with "clipboards" use to pommel the creative child within us into submission while again forgetting that:

a) If this is true, Federer fans have been such flannel suited oppressors for years
b) The use of statistics and metrics is a vital aspect of understanding reality. The OP cites a passage from Muller writing on what he considers synthesis, essentially the evaluation of talent and the intangibles alongside metrics. The OP, and perhaps Muller himself, seem to place more emphasis on the "intangible" aspect for whatever reason, forgetting that BOTH are crucial to the pursuit of truth.
c) There seems to be a sort of unspoken assumption here that Nadal and Djokovic fans, or indeed any fans anywhere, don't enjoy similar feelings of awe around their champions, even if expressed differently.

Ultimately, Federer's style is beautiful and graceful. It is also heavily romanticized to the point of concern. And while that will never be taken from him, we must never denigrate the beauty of the play of other champions (a.k.a. LOL Edberg's forehand, LOL Sampras power), nor minimize their achievements. As Federer fans expected (and still do expect) Sampras fans to bow before their hero, they must also do the same to his successors, or themselves concede that greatness is anyone's game. Otherwise they risk painfully obvious hypocrisy.

You make a number of good points. Rog put a lot of money in his pocket over the years elevating the slam chase, and then slam count, to greater prominence, in a way that probably flattened out the sport (though the whole thing was inevitable once the bureaucrats sorted the tour out structurally in the 1990s and early 2000s).

Having said that, now that certain of the metrics have abandoned Federer, the singular artistry of his game is what remains, and is undeniable. Don't let anonymous partisans blind your memory to his charms.

Rog will also always be fascinating as a crossroads figure in the sport given things like surface homogenization, rankings points/processes standardization, the move from 16 to 32 seeds at the majors, the abandonment of 5 set matches outside majors, the health and fitness regimens becoming a baseline requirement of success rather than bonus, and of course racquet tech etc., that began apace after he turned pro. He's been present for a lot of moments now lost in time (something, something, tears in the rain, etc.), and he's about to exit relatively gracefully - moreso than other global sporting icons who reached his level of fame like Jordan, Ali, etc.

Anyway, Joseph Cotten has a great line in the Orson Welles film Magnificent Ambersons about how there's no such thing as old times, "When times are gone, they're not old, they're dead. There aren't any times but new times." And so it's coming to be for the jolly old ATP.
 
I appreciate all of the big 3 and have rooted against Fed several times during his hey days especially when he faced Rafa and sometimes Novak too. But to me if there was one player who seemed to be born to play this sport, it is Federer. It just seems so natural to see the man play effortless tennis, almost floating, gliding, so much so that even his mishits never looked awkward. There was never a grimace on his face as he hit those powerful and lethal forehands, never a strain on his poker face, never a grunt. He is the most graceful player to ever play the sport while consistently winning a bucket load of titles and dominating the sport for years. He is indeed too perfect atennis player.

1-C3693-CE-F0-D2-426-D-9-F17-8608940-F4996.gif
 
“The most characteristic feature of metric fixation is the aspiration to replace judgment based on experience with standardized measurement.”

We live in an era of technocratic numbers men and an endlessly proliferating class of middle management bean counters who have elevated numbers and statistical data to the sine qua non of knowledge and objective truth. “Numbers don’t lie” they tell us. “You can’t argue with the data” we are assured. “Don’t worry, very sharp statisticians have collected and interpreted this data so your opinion is no longer required,” we are warned by men in grey flannel suits and are expected to slink back to our cubicles or howl out our rage only in the sealed privacy of our cars in the silence of underground car parks. But at some level we know it is a con. We can plainly see that the guy with the clipboard and glib set of numbers doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is missing the point. He got his position through nepotism or brown-nosing and his experience is solely theoretical. He never spent a day in the trenches – on a sales pitch, in front of a classroom, in the operating theatre or on a drug bust. His numbers are merely rationalisations for a course of action that has been decided in advance by head office. However, the delusion that experience, instinct and professional judgement can be junked and replaced by a stack of contextless spreadsheets without losing something of crucial significance is the particular madness of our age.

I recently read The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Z. Muller and some of the sneering, gleeful and premature relegation of Federer’s achievements and career by perennial nay-sayers reminded me of the central arguments of his book. To sum it up crudely – measurement is often not a replacement for judgement. In his words, “Metric fixation is the persistence of these beliefs despite their unintended negative consequences when they are put into practice. It occurs because not everything that is important is measureable, and much that is measurable is unimportant.” The thesis of his book is that the managerialist obsession with measurement and data very often distorts the object that is being measured as criteria are adjusted to suit preferred outcomes or people and organisations, rationally, adjust behaviour or priorities in order to game the system. Here's a key passage:

“To demand or preach mechanical precision, even in principle, in a field incapable of it, is to be blind and to mislead others," as the British liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin noted in an essay on political judgement. Indeed what Berlin says of political judgement applies more broadly: judgement is a sort of skill at grasping the unique particularities of a situation, and it entails a talent for synthesis rather than analysis, "a capacity for taking in the total pattern of a human situation, of the way in which things hang together." A feel for the whole and a sense for the unique are precisely what numerical metrics cannot supply.”

So it is with tennis. What are the definitive criteria for measuring greatness? They are arbitrary – not even rising to the level of conventional. In recent years it has become grand slam results. But what is or is not a grand slam has changed over time with commercial pressures, ease of international travel etc. In any case, some say the key metric is the record against key rivals, or number of weeks at number one, or year end number ones, or most dominant streak (or in some cases the possession of functioning tear ducts and the complete range of human emotion). For others it is an experiential thing, “I’ve seen player X’s game and it is closest to my vision of the Platonic form of tennis.” It could be a combination of all of these in whatever proportions you suit your preferences. In the end it’s whatever you want it to be. Whatever metrics you choose will be imperfect. Why? Because by the nature of metrics - compilers have to make an arbitrary decision about what is important enough to be measured and what is to be left out. Once this subjective choice has been made then we are told what has been selected as being worth measuring is objective. And so Federer fans are told, “No, the thing you value most is not relevant or important. It does not fit into my metric and therefore is illegitimate.” So goes the tyranny of managerialism but this does not make it correct

Of course, sponsors and advertising imperatives will demand metrics and simple, axiomatic slogans masquerading as common sense in order to flog watches, sneakers, racquets etc. This will always murder the past in order to move product and put bums on seats in the present. They don’t care about Sampras or Agassi, Laver or Rosewall and nor will they care about Federer fairly soon - once his product moving potential has been wrung out. He will be fitted with a narrative that privileges the present product movers. It has already begun on this board. But it won’t be true; it will just be expedient. Many will accept the revisionism because they heard it many times and there were some numbers on the TV. There is an old saying in marketing, “Everyone thinks that advertising works – on other people.”

The human element of tennis and the visceral judgement about what excites you on a tennis court will never be captured in a spreadsheet. This is what makes the game great. An imperfect analogy is acting. I like Robert DeNiro you prefer Tom Hanks. Who is correct? Should we check their trophy room to decide who is greater. The point is moot. So it is with Federer. Were he alive still, would David Foster Wallace have disowned his famous essay on Federer as result of recent victories by Nadal? Was his judgement faulty? Not at all. I cheered for Djokovic on the weekend and commend his victory as I have with Nadal but they simply do not move me in the way Federer did. They do not walk the tightrope and make themselves vulnerable in the way he did. He played in a way that made “the jaw drop and eyes protrude and sounds are made that bring spouses in from other rooms to see if you’re OK.” Deep down you sense that other top players even highly successful ones (some have even admitted it) would love to have his game - to play with that creativity, freedom and swashbuckling panache. His achievements will live on in the record books but his game will live on in our hearts and memories. Exhilarating and undiminished in a way that quickens the pulse and lightens the spirit and escapes the chains of numerical pedantry. Thankfully, Foster Wallace put his judgement and feeling into words for the rest of us.

"Genius is not replicable. Inspiration, though, is contagious, and multiform — and even just to see, close up, power and aggression made vulnerable to beauty is to feel inspired and (in a fleeting, mortal way) reconciled."

FJiboMQXIAIcICK.jpg:large
That is just too long a wall of text to labor through man.

I will say that the B3 all are roughly equivalent talents. A lot of these slams came down to incredibly tiny margins. Moments that if you replayed them a bunch, they’d come out the other way a lot. That’s just tennis. All 3 are amazing. Unless one of them finishes with 25+ I’m just gonna think of them as equals.
 
Only one of them had a BH that got exploited by his two main rivals and has a hard time closing out matches. I don’t think they are all equal.


I will say that the B3 all are roughly equivalent talents.
 
The thing with Fed - and @Steve0904 has touched on this many times - is that he made the sport look easy. PETE (e.g.) had unbelievable shotmaking, but from watching I get the impression that those were shots only PETE could hit. Fed also played ridiculous shots but somehow in a way that it felt like anyone could hit them - a little like Ronnie O'Sullivan from the world of snooker. I'll never get over the paradox of how he made the best shotmaking I've ever seen look accessible. I'd watch him play and then depart straight for a court expecting to make some sort of magic happen. I was of course duly disappointed, so maybe I should join what feels like the TTW majority and revile the wanker.
 
In my view this "Fed played in weak era" is used to diminish Federer's accomplishments.

Watch his tennis from 2004-2007 his level of play would demolish the level of play today, only Djokovic and Nadal would be able to stay with him.

People should just accept that Federer is one of the most naturally gifted players to have ever played.
 
Sorry, but I can't resist - this is one of the classic, recurring comedy tropes on this board and as the kids like to say a huge "self own." In your counter argument to the proposition that an over emphasis on standardised measurement does not fully capture reality and smuggles on board subjectivity your first tactic is to reach for the utterly subjective "weak era" argument (a TTW gas giant made up of equal parts resentment and folk-tale that has attained the illusion of granite-like solidity over the years). It has been the standard plaint of the Fed hater for nearly two decades now but isn't getting any truer with age. This is especially embarrassing because from here if you instantly pivot to the "numbers don't lie" position you look like an even bigger hypocrite. Tough spot you've put yourself and your homies in. Can you folks continue to hold on to the weak era hoax but still maintain that you are motivated by nothing other than a disinterested thirst for objective truth?
293089551_10166819167645494_3229649651524669699_n.jpg
There is no paradox. Greatness is measured by what you actually achieved. If you achieved it in a very competitive open era like Serena or a very weak open era like Graf, it makes no difference. You can only beat what is in front of you. If that happens to be weak era trash, thank your lucky stars and run with it.

Ljubicic was World No. 3. That says everything that needs to be said about Nos 4 - 1000. Weakest era of all time. Federer cleaned up, vacuuming slams at an unprecedented rate until the talent showed up and his slams dried up.

Some hoped with such a headstart and with Nadal and Djokovic sharing slams, he might just have been able to hold on. He nearly did but the game is up.

He has finished as 3rd wheel, which is exactly where he belongs given the H2Hs, especially in slams. He simply and objectively is not on the same tier as the two who will fight it out for GOAT status.

So hunt for alternative metrics if that provides you with comfort but no one outside of his most committed devotees regards him as the GOAT now and his place in history will only get weaker.

It's over. You had a very lucky ride but it's over.
 
Unfortunately some people haven't watched or followed Federer during his early career doesn't know he can play serve and volley. With all the tools- great serve, balance, touch and appoach, he was well adept to play attacking tennis like Sampras. No way he could have beaten Sampras in 2001 if he didn't have the full package to play serve/volley. He won Wimbledon in 2003 playing serve and volley. The court was still fast enough for Federe's like and he enjoy this condition. The problem is the ATP later start to slow down the court(even the grass) and Federer had to adapt to play baseliner and ditch the net-rush game.

Since he was so dominant in the homogenious surface, people falsely believe he isn't equip to play serve/volley on fast court but simply a pure baseliner like the rest of the field. The truth is, Federer is at his best on fast, low bounce courts. Just because he is so successful on slow courts doesn't mean that he was benefitted due to homogenious surface(that only holds true for Djokodal).
He did volley about 39 times out of 244 shots that is about 15% of all his shots. But totally remember him approaching net far more than his later years.
 
There is no paradox. Greatness is measured by what you actually achieved. If you achieved it in a very competitive open era like Serena or a very weak open era like Graf, it makes no difference. You can only beat what is in front of you. If that happens to be weak era trash, thank your lucky stars and run with it.

Ljubicic was World No. 3. That says everything that needs to be said about Nos 4 - 1000. Weakest era of all time. Federer cleaned up, vacuuming slams at an unprecedented rate until the talent showed up and his slams dried up.

Some hoped with such a headstart and with Nadal and Djokovic sharing slams, he might just have been able to hold on. He nearly did but the game is up.

He has finished as 3rd wheel, which is exactly where he belongs given the H2Hs, especially in slams. He simply and objectively is not on the same tier as the two who will fight it out for GOAT status.

So hunt for alternative metrics if that provides you with comfort but no one outside of his most committed devotees regards him as the GOAT now and his place in history will only get weaker.

It's over. You had a very lucky ride but it's over.
Thank you for this subjectivity free post and clearing up things for me. I thought words like "weak" and "strong" with regard to complex matters were merely value judgements based on preferences and a lack of imagination. But you've straightened me out with your hard-headed, scientific approach to tennis. The weak era is a real thing after all - not the natural consequence of one player's overwhelming dominance. I now understand that players like Safin, Nalbandian, Roddick and Hewitt would never have reached historically great achievements had Federer not been around. Because they're just... weak. Cool. Cheers.
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That is just too long a wall of text to labor through man.

I will say that the B3 all are roughly equivalent talents. A lot of these slams came down to incredibly tiny margins. Moments that if you replayed them a bunch, they’d come out the other way a lot. That’s just tennis. All 3 are amazing. Unless one of them finishes with 25+ I’m just gonna think of them as equals.
Same here. Djokovic was a "co-Goat" to me much before he equaled Fedal at 20. Nadal winning 22 and Djokovic winning his 21st doesn't change any of what I have been feeling about this debate for a while.
 
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It's pitiable to see people go to such lengths to try and defend their blind devotion to Federer. He's been surpassed in both numbers and performance by two players who were just that bit better than him -and who didn't shank shots out of the court like park players. His chance to be the GOAT has gone. You'll just have to get used to it the way us Borg fans had to get used to him not quite reaching GOATness. The dream is over.
 
I now understand that players like Safin, Nalbandian, Roddick and Hewitt would never have reached historically great achievements had Federer not been around. Because they're just... weak. Cool. Cheers.

Interesting choice. Without Federer, Roddick would have had as many slams as Agassi and yet objectively he wasn't qualified to hold Agassi's towel.

It's difficult to find more concrete proof of the dearth of talent in men's tennis, 2002-2007 than that.
 
It's pitiable to see people go to such lengths to try and defend their blind devotion to Federer. He's been surpassed in both numbers and performance by two players who were just that bit better than him -and who didn't shank shots out of the court like park players. His chance to be the GOAT has gone. You'll just have to get used to it the way us Borg fans had to get used to him not quite reaching GOATness. The dream is over.
And just like that, the extensive content herein is handwaved with all the grace and clarity of a broken DVD player.
 
Thank you for this subjectivity free post and clearing up things for me. I thought words like "weak" and "strong" with regard to complex matters were merely value judgements based on preferences and a lack of imagination. But you've straightened me out with your hard headed, scientific approach to tennis. The weak era is a real thing after all - not the natural effect of one player's overwhelming dominance. I now understand that players like Safin, Nalbandian, Roddick and Hewitt would never have reached historically great achievements had Federer not been around. Because they're just... weak. Cool. Cheers.
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Mate, lol at these posts of caricature points that were either comprehensively pre-empted and shagged or that just sweep everything under the rug. It's hilarious.
 
And just like that, the extensive content herein is handwaved with all the grace and clarity of a broken DVD player.
It's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

The only reason Federer was in the GOAT conversation was because of the number of slam titles, number of Wimbledon titles, number of weeks at #1, number of consecutive semi-finals etc. Numbers, numbers, numbers. And it's because of two specific numbers -forty and fifteen- that he'll go down as one of the legendary chokers of the game.

The idea that numbers are not the primary consideration is the desperate grasping of rather bitter people who just can't acclimatize to a world in which their childhood favourite has been overtaken.
 
It's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

The only reason Federer was in the GOAT conversation was because of the number of slam titles, number of Wimbledon titles, number of weeks at #1, number of consecutive semi-finals etc. Numbers, numbers, numbers. And it's because of two specific numbers -forty and fifteen- that he'll go down as one of the legendary chokers of the game.

The idea that numbers are not the primary consideration is the desperate grasping of rather bitter people who just can't acclimatize to a world in which their childhood favourite has been overtaken.

Think of this thread as a group therapy grief counseling session with free copium on tap at the bar.
 
And it's because of two specific numbers -forty and fifteen- that he'll go down as one of the legendary chokers of the game.


You commonly make appeals to popular consensus when it suits you, then you say something like this lol — anyone half-awake knows only a subset of the misfits on insular communities like this one will view Fed as “one of the legendary chokers” — certainly won’t be the average fan or the world at large.


Other than the trashing of Moneyball (feel like it’s been mischaracterized), this thread is pretty on-point.
 
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It's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

The only reason Federer was in the GOAT conversation was because of the number of slam titles, number of Wimbledon titles, number of weeks at #1, number of consecutive semi-finals etc. Numbers, numbers, numbers. And it's because of two specific numbers -forty and fifteen- that he'll go down as one of the legendary chokers of the game.

The idea that numbers are not the primary consideration is the desperate grasping of rather bitter people who just can't acclimatize to a world in which their childhood favourite has been overtaken.
No it isn't, you just proclaim it as such because you're fewer inches from an embarrassing trouser malfunction courtesy of all your Christmases having come at once after the last few farcical years. Your bald faced assertions herein are in direct contrast to the entire premise of the thread but in the guise of nothing but a substance-less stonewall disagreement with the flippant delivery one would expect from someone toothlessly oblivious to the absolutely shagged sense of anything remotely resembling objectivity. Your faux-enlightened chants of 'numbers' mean little with such delivery when the details and constituent parts of what those numbers serve as vessels for are the very things being discussed. You know, the actual stuff. By all means just count the beans instead; I think it a flawed and disappointing ethos.

Oh and how you think Fed will be remembered makes me wish you were famous.
 
It's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

The only reason Federer was in the GOAT conversation was because of the number of slam titles, number of Wimbledon titles, number of weeks at #1, number of consecutive semi-finals etc. Numbers, numbers, numbers. And it's because of two specific numbers -forty and fifteen- that he'll go down as one of the legendary chokers of the game.

The idea that numbers are not the primary consideration is the desperate grasping of rather bitter people who just can't acclimatize to a world in which their childhood favourite has been overtaken.
Yes. When competing in the same era, there is no excuse to have inferior numbers to other players than being inferior to other players.
 
Remember when "15 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14. ... always"?


What changed? :-D
Looks like it was in direct riposte to some absolute f*ckmuppetry, so it seems fair game. I assume you spent the last 24 minutes sifting through the archives for that bit of 'gold', huh?
 
Remember when "15 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14. ... always"?


What changed? :-D

1. Was literally 14
2. Responded to a career troll in what was an obvious wind-up on my part (quite different from seriously and substantively arguing something) and was on record even then as considering Fed and Laver to be equals, though as early as 2012 I revised that opinion and put Laver ahead.


Bizarre stuff, truly. Wonder how long that took you.

Any other questions?


Edit: reviewed my old posts and was far too conservative here in my recall. I’ve consistently erred on the side of favouring Laver over Fed, even back in ‘09. No revision necessary.
 
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Looks like it was in direct riposte to some absolute f*ckmuppetry, so it seems fair game. I assume you spent the last 24 minutes sifting through the archives for that bit of 'gold', huh?
24 minutes? There is a search function you know and you can filter by username. Cheers. :)
 
1. Was literally 14
2. Responded to a career troll in what was an obvious wind-up, and was on record even then as considering Fed and Laver to be equals, though as early as 2012 I revised that opinion and put Laver ahead.


Bizarre stuff, truly. Wonder how long that took you.
While the immaturity is certainly understandable for a 14 year old, it was and has been the staple of up to and beyond 40 year olds in the fan base for decades.
 
Looks like it was in direct riposte to some absolute f*ckmuppetry, so it seems fair game. I assume you spent the last 24 minutes sifting through the archives for that bit of 'gold', huh?
Don't think I've heard that one before, blondie.
 
Absolutely, TB3 fanbases gonna TB3-stan. Not something unique to the Federer fanbase.
Granted, but the PETEfans have seen mostly disrespect from Fedfans, and at the very least a degree of respect from the Djokodal fanbases.
 
No it isn't, you just proclaim it as such because you're fewer inches from an embarrassing trouser malfunction courtesy of all your Christmases having come at once after the last few farcical years. Your bald faced assertions herein are in direct contrast to the entire premise of the thread but in the guise of nothing but a substance-less stonewall disagreement with the flippant delivery one would expect from someone toothlessly oblivious to the absolutely shagged sense of anything remotely resembling objectivity. Your faux-enlightened chants of 'numbers' mean little with such delivery when the details and constituent parts of what those numbers serve as vessels for are the very things being discussed. You know, the actual stuff. By all means just count the beans instead; I think it a flawed and disappointing ethos.

Oh and how you think Fed will be remembered makes me wish you were famous.
Numbers are not "vessels" for "other stuff", they represent the extent of a sportspersons sporting achievement. Now, you are free to suggest that greatness in sport should be based on artistic merit rather than sporting merit but you will be in a tiny minority - composed of Federer fans, oddly.
 
Numbers are not "vessels" for "other stuff", they represent the extent of a sportspersons sporting achievement. Now, you are free to suggest that greatness in sport should be based on artistic merit rather than sporting merit but you will be in a tiny minority - composed of Federer fans, oddly.


And, yet again, you’re a part of the tiny minority of people that believe Federer will be seen as a legendary choker.
 
Granted, but the PETEfans have seen mostly disrespect from Fedfans, and at the very least a degree of respect from the Djokodal fanbases.


That’s due in large part to circumstance rather than pathology lol. Fed was vying for Pete’s records, Djoko was not (‘cept for year-end finishes, of course).
 
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