The ULTIMATE solution to beating pushers, forever.

Imagine someone driving a car.
He approaches a turn, and navigates it well.
On the next turn, he floors it, and drives off the road and crashes into a tree.

He repeats this cycle every 10 seconds.
For 10 seconds he drives well, and then he suddenly jerks the wheel and drives into head-on traffic and totals his car.

Is this person a great driver?
Is he even an average driver?
No, he can't drive a car to save his life.
Period.

If you can't beat a pusher, then you can't play tennis.
LEARN TO HIT THE BALL IN.
STOP DRIVING INTO HEAD-ON traffic.
 
P

PittsburghDad

Guest
Stop messing with it. I think the OP has some truth in it and your joking post is a yuge distraction.

Is the pusher the good driver or the average driver? Or the car? Are we supposed to hold and absorb the turn? I like where this is going and I personally struggle with pushers.
 

watungga

Professional
OP meant to learn to drive, basically within the road. If the car goes on the side, its called 'out' or fault.
Driving the car means tennis.
ATP pros drive formula 1.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
Seems like OP is trying justify his existence as a 3.5 Pusher.
 

mikeler

Moderator
Assuming that you don't have the ability or confidence to hit winners all day off the ground, the mikeler 3 step winning formula is as follows and all involve net play:

1) Develop a solid overhead because pushers prefer this defense over passing shots when you attack
2) Develop a swinging volley to rob them of their time when you pull them off the court so they can't keep resetting the point
3) Develop a drop shot because pushers want to own the baseline. Don't let them, bring them to the net and torture them back with a nice lob.
 
C

Chadillac

Guest
Assuming that you don't have the ability or confidence to hit winners all day off the ground, the mikeler 3 step winning formula is as follows and all involve net play:

1) Develop a solid overhead because pushers prefer this defense over passing shots when you attack
2) Develop a swinging volley to rob them of their time when you pull them off the court so they can't keep resetting the point
3) Develop a drop shot because pushers want to own the baseline. Don't let them, bring them to the net and torture them back with a nice lob.

Disagree on #2, i hate the swinging volley. Drop it short crosscourt or punch deep up the line if they move early.

Hope your elbow gets better, i went back to my old rackets and my arm felt better instantly. The open patterns are hard on the elbow/wrist im finding.

The biggest key to beating a pusher is understanding that they cant really hurt you. No rush to end the point should be your mindset, hit a few balls, thats why you came to the courts.
 

RudyHuxtable

Semi-Pro
Imagine you walk in to the woods. You need a sturdy sapling for a home repair project.

You come to a silver maple that is the approximate size. You take your new axe recently purchased from the feed store/El Cheapo near the highway and prepare to go to work.
You realize that this tree's shape is lovely and it is your favorite tree. You decide not to cut it down.

You return several days later to find the tree has been felled and notice bite marks around the base of the trunk.
You return to your Hyundai Elantra and pull your airsoft rifle that looks like a real rifle from the trunk.

You kill the first beaver you come across. You later realize that it wasn't the beaver you were after.

DON'T BUY AN AXE AT EL CHEAPO
MOAR BACKHAND SLICE
 
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oble

Hall of Fame
I don't know.. It depends on my mood how I want to drive:
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latest


Wait, am I in the correct forum?
 
Seems like OP is trying justify his existence as a 3.5 Pusher.

Every single pro ATP player pushes at least one shot in almost every single point he plays.
Take that to the bank.

Damn straight I am pushing more of my shots.
It's called "successfully playing tennis"
Tennis at the pro level is all about when to push and slice, and when to put it away.

Crappy players try to put away every shot.
They have no concept of probability.

Another analogy is a golfer who uses driver on every shot.
He would be an idiotic golfer who shoots 130.
In other words, a terrible golfer.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Imagine someone driving a car.
He approaches a turn, and navigates it well.
On the next turn, he floors it, and drives off the road and crashes into a tree.

He repeats this cycle every 10 seconds.
For 10 seconds he drives well, and then he suddenly jerks the wheel and drives into head-on traffic and totals his car.

Is this person a great driver?
Is he even an average driver?
No, he can't drive a car to save his life.
Period.

As analogies go, yours is all over the road [pun intended].

When one drives, assuming one is not a race car driver, one is not trying to "win". There is no opponent actively trying to defeat you. No one is moving the road to make it more difficult for you to stay on it. If you stay in your lane and observe the rules of traffic, you will be successful. It's not that simple in tennis. That's why you see so few accidents and so many UEs.

If you can't beat a pusher, then you can't play tennis.
LEARN TO HIT THE BALL IN.
STOP DRIVING INTO HEAD-ON traffic.

If you can't beat a pusher, of course you can still play tennis. You just haven't honed your abilities to that level...yet.

Your statement is akin to saying "if you're not at least NTRP X, then you're not a real tennis player" to which I say, nonsense.

Of course, you have essentially made that very statement before. I just don't agree with you.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Every single pro ATP player pushes at least one shot in almost every single point he plays.
Take that to the bank.

My bank doesn't accept flawed logic as a deposit. If they did, I'd be a lot wealthier.

You and I define "push" differently. I define it as almost always choosing to block the ball back with little pace or spin in a high % part of the court. The pusher almost never takes the initiative. He'll even run up to hit a short ball, push it, and then retreat the BL.

When a pro "pushes", it's because he was in a defensive position and a deep push was the best way to recover and get back into the point. A pro will not let the short ball opportunity go by.

Damn straight I am pushing more of my shots.
It's called "successfully playing tennis"
Tennis at the pro level is all about when to push and slice, and when to put it away.

Your other posts indicated you were willing to play the long game, sacrificing short-term results to achieve more complete expertise. But this push philosophy, applied blindly, is the opposite. [Applied intelligently, as in the above example of a pro using it for defense, makes perfect sense. If that's what you mean, I wholeheartedly agree.]

Crappy players try to put away every shot.
They have no concept of probability.

Crappy players do a lot of things wrong. Trying to put away every shot is only one of many errors. I'd argue they do have a concept of probability. But, for whatever reason, other factors outweigh the high % shot [wanting to impress, impatience, blindly copying pros during highlight reel replays, etc].

You consistently bash large swathes of players. I'd argue you'd get better more quickly by not concentrating on what other players are doing incorrectly but on what you are doing incorrectly and trying to fix that rather than generalizing it.
 
I'm doing just fine with my improvement. I write and post to solidify certain themes in my head , and then put them into action.

You come off as a bit obtuse, read everything literally, and seem to miss the forest for the trees. What is the forest here? Reduce unforced errors if you want to be a good tennis player. Someone who hits every single ball into the net can't play tennis, period.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm doing just fine with my improvement. I write and post to solidify certain themes in my head , and then put them into action.

You come off as a bit obtuse, read everything literally, and seem to miss the forest for the trees. What is the forest here? Reduce unforced errors if you want to be a good tennis player. Someone who hits every single ball into the net can't play tennis, period.

I assume you're talking about me since "obtuse" and "literal" have definitely been thrown my way and not without justification [although why you don't quote replies to remove doubt is beyond me]. I don't do it deliberately to annoy people, though; it's how I think.

We agree on the forest [in this particular case; not so much in others]. Can't say the same for your description of the trees.

Also, your forest conclusion of "Reduce unforced errors if you want to be a good tennis player" does not, IMO, address your original post of "The ULTIMATE solution to beating pushers, forever". If anything, your conclusion is more apropos to "Why pushing will improve one's game". Not that I disagree with the latter [to a point].
 
You will beat a pusher by picking your spots. 3.5 doesn't know how to do this. Watch any pro on any point. Half their shots are slices.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
But seriously, what is a pusher? Someone misses less and wins more, seems to be the common theme.

A pusher is a someone whose approach to the game is to keep the ball coming back without taking much risk, typically using a combination of junk balls (dead balls), dinks, drop shots and lobs, in order to frustrate an opponent and induce him/her into over-hitting and excessive errors.
 
My twin brother asked me to come in here because he feels like he is being misunderstood by some posters.
We have won 3.5 Doubles on all surfaces in the same year, concrete, asphalt, cement and tar, so we know what we are talking about.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
My twin brother asked me to come in here because he feels like he is being misunderstood by some posters.
We have won 3.5 Doubles on all surfaces in the same year, concrete, asphalt, cement and tar, so we know what we are talking about.
How about Fijian mud, volcanic ash, and moon rock?
 

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
Watch any pro on any point. Half their shots are slices.
LOL, no. Not even close. Some perspective from the 2017 AO final:

Federer:
Total Forehands GS / Slice FHs: 258 / 10 (3.9%)
Total Backhands GS / Slice BHs: 244 / 25 (10.2%)

Nadal:
Total Forehands GS / Slice FHs: 260 / 4 (1.5%)
Total Backhands GS / Slice BHs: 211 / 18 (8.5%)

Basically out of 973 total groundstrokes, only 57 were slices/chips. That's just under 6%. They also lost most of the points where they had to slice. It's mostly a defensive shot
 
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mikeler

Moderator
Disagree on #2, i hate the swinging volley. Drop it short crosscourt or punch deep up the line if they move early.

Hope your elbow gets better, i went back to my old rackets and my arm felt better instantly. The open patterns are hard on the elbow/wrist im finding.

The biggest key to beating a pusher is understanding that they cant really hurt you. No rush to end the point should be your mindset, hit a few balls, thats why you came to the courts.

You can't disagree because you don't like a shot! OK, I guess you can.

My elbow is doing OK now. I dropped my tension from 60 to 30.
 

Kalin

Legend
But seriously, what is a pusher? Someone misses less and wins more, seems to be the common theme.

Not really; most people who win more tend to miss less, pushers or not :)

@S&V-not_dead_yet dead and @Limpinhitter give very good description above. A pusher, as usually defined, is a player who takes no risks, puts no pace on the ball and relies on his retrieval skills to 'push' every ball back without much spin or pace until the other guy misses in frustration. A person who hits a deep, low backhand slice is seldom a pusher; a pusher avoids hitting too sharp or deep shots. Short, soft, no pace slices, yes! Deep shots are usually the looping, moonball-ish kind because they're easier to control (for the pusher) and very hard to generate pace off (for the opponent).

Edit: we all push occasionally, usually when we're in a disadvantageous position and are trying to neutralize a rally or when we're tense/nervous and are afraid to miss on an important point. Even many pros tense up and start pushing a bit in such situations. But real pushers push virtually always; this is their default game.

The reason why most people hate pushers is that 1. It's an ugly, unexciting game whether you're watching it or playing against it and 2. When you play against a pusher it's a frustrating game, even when you win. You either have to play their game and out-push them, which is usually an exercise in futility, not to mention is effing boring or you have to swing like a madman to generate your own pace off their slow shots and take all kinds of risks going to the net to finish off points before you die of boredom. Very hard to get any proper, exciting rally going.

Many think that people hate pushers because they keep losing to them. Well, people keep losing to Roger Federer and you never hear a single person call his game anything but exciting and beautiful. So there is much more to it, trust me :)

I've both lost to some pushers and beaten some 6-0, 6-0; I dare say that I win more than I lose when playing them. I seldom lose to pure pushers; I'm consistent enough and have a decent net game. The ones that give me trouble are the ones that can counter-attack when you hit a shorter ball. Basically they are people who push from the baseline but can attack forward when given the chance; many will argue that these aren't even 'proper' pushers. At the pro level, Nadal is an example of this- he can push like the best of them but, given an opening, he hits an attacking shot either for an outright winner (especially the (in)famous DTL Fearhand) or as a set-up to a volley. Murray is similar when he plays well. When he isn't playing well he is as close to a high-level pusher as one will see at the pro level, just dinking, moonballing, lobbing and backboarding everything. It's also a main reason many people don't like him as a player. He was given a taste of his own medicine vs Mischa Zverev who didn't give him any pace; Andy didn't know what to do with the ball half of the time since he is not used to generating his own pace. It's frustrating since he is one of the hardest hitters of the ball when he actually decides to hit one hard.

So it's not a matter of losing; it's because playing pushers is generally a very unrewarding game. Most people play matches for the competition but also to improve and to learn/practice things one can take to other matches. There's very few things one learns playing a pusher that are applicable when one plays more attacking-minded players, alas.

Playing against pushers builds character; that's the only positive I can think of :)
 
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Kalin

Legend
Another word for pusher is winner.

At what level? I don't play many tournaments but seemingly every 3.5-4.0 tournament I've played in has been won by an attacking player, whether a hard-hitting baseliner or an all-courter. I've only been beaten once in a tournament by a pusher and it was my first competitive match in years; I was nervous as heII. Yes, pushers always clock a few wins and frustrate a ton of people but I've never seen one win anything of note.

Edit: well, there was one ladies' amateur tournament that was won by a 13-year old girl training to be a pro. She hit nothing but a towering moonball the entire tournament; I don't think I've ever seen a tennis ball go that high. During the final, the entire crowd of spectators was booing her and hurling some pretty bad insults at her; she left the court crying after her win. I repeat, she was 13 and the crowd wanted to lynch her. Her dad tried to justify her play and I'll just say that he wasn't well received. So yes, pushers are definitely worse than lepers :cool:

But even she wouldn't win cr*p at a decent level with what she showed that day.
 
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r2473

G.O.A.T.
When one drives, assuming one is not a race car driver, one is not trying to "win". There is no opponent actively trying to defeat you. No one is moving the road to make it more difficult for you to stay on it. If you stay in your lane and observe the rules of traffic, you will be successful.
You obviously don't commute with the same type of people I do.
 

Kalin

Legend
@Kalin

FYI...@5263 and @mikeler know what a pusher is. Based on the length of your reply with explanations, it looked like you might have been taking things too literally. :)

Messed up the replies; here's the edit:

I was answering a question someone had asked me but it may have been tongue-in-cheek. I believe my explanation is the commonly accepted one as to what a pusher is so let it stay as public service :). I've at best touched the 4.5 level when I was young and playing regularly; the 4.5 and above pushers are probably much more versatile. But I've been at higher-level amateur tournaments and again, pushers are very scarce once you observe the final stages.
 
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r2473

G.O.A.T.
Edit: well, there was one ladies' amateur tournament that was won by a 13-year old girl training to be a pro. She hit nothing but a towering moonball the entire tournament; I don't think I've ever seen a tennis ball go that high. During the final, the entire crowd of spectators was booing her and hurling some pretty bad insults at her; she left the court crying after her win. I repeat, she was 13 and the crowd wanted to lynch her. Her dad tried to justify her play and I'll just say that he wasn't well received. So yes, pushers are definitely worse than lepers :cool:

But even she wouldn't win cr*p at a decent level with what she showed that day.
She obviously had a winning strategy. The crowd (and her opponents?) are fools. If I were there, I'd be the first to congratulate her on playing smart and winning. She's only 13 and seems to understand the game better than people much older than her.

One of my go to plays is the high looper forehand to the backhand and move into net. I win TONS of points with this strategy and haven't felt the least bit bad about a single one of them.

And I should note that my opponent often gets the ball back in play (stays on the road), but unfortunately for them, it is often a weak, floater that I easily volley away.
 
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Kalin

Legend
She obviously had a winning strategy. The crowd (and her opponents?) are fools. If I were there, I'd be the first to congratulate her on playing smart and winning. She's only 13 and seems to understand the game better than people much older than her.

One of my go to plays is the high looper forehand to the backhand and move into net. I win TONS of points with this strategy and haven't felt the least bit bad about a single one of them.

And I should note that my opponent often gets the ball back in play (stays on the road), but unfortunately for them, it is often a weak, floater that I easily volley away.

She was in full-time training to be a pro and had a full array of shots; one would hope she'd have a winning strategy against some once-a-week amateur players without having to resort to that horrible style which was obviously designed to frustrate people, all style be damned. Not the way to bring up a young budding pro, IMO, and the people watching seemed to agree. She had the right to play as she did and they had the right to clap or boo. She clearly had the game for something different and just chose to win in the ugliest way possible. I didn't boo or comment, by the way, I just watched. However, her style was extremely ugly and a discredit to the sport; here, I said it. You may disagree.

Edit: on second thought (it's been a long time); I do believe she was also very nervous being young and with the dad present. She may have been super tense, for all I know. As I said, I remember I kept quiet and didn't really react so it may have been what I thought at the time. But it didn't make her tennis look any prettier :(

Jose Mourinho is always displeased when people harp on him for the sometimes ugly playing style of his teams. Tough luck, ugly is ugly. He, of course, is an edgy personality so people like to tease him even when his teams play attacking football... but I digress.

As for your looping forehand, you yourself said you move to the net after that; this is an attack move and not pushing :) I also like to sometimes spin a looper to the backhand side and either move in to the net or try to hit a winner off the short response. It's the opposite of pushing :cool:

And, as I said before, we all push sometimes due to nerves, tiredness, 'regular' shots not going in, strong wind etc. But full-time pushing is more of a mentality than a particular choice of shots, IMO. I actually don't mind pushers who clearly have no other big weapons. But I very much dislike people who have all the shots and choose to push just to win an extra match here and there while basically building their own glass ceiling. It stunts both players' progress, IMO- the pusher's and the unfortunate opponent's.

I love playing pushers occasionally since it builds character and makes one acutely aware of ball placement and players' court positioning. But do it all the time? Blech... :eek:
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
She was in full-time training to be a pro and had a full array of shots; one would hope she'd have a winning strategy against some once-a-week amateur players without having to resort to that horrible style which was obviously designed to frustrate people, all style be damned.
These 5 concepts (in order of easiest to hardest) will take you far in most matches. Sounds like this girl was capable of Concept 5, but didn't need to take the unnecessary risk. The first 4 were enough. Most people aren't smart enough to realize the power of the first 4, focus too much on 5 (while foolishly ignoring the first 4), and lose matches needlessly.

1. Get the ball in play
2. Choose a direction
3. Choose a depth
4. Choose a spin
5. Use Speed / Power

If I'm playing someone that uses the moonball strategy, I'll do 2 things:

1) Moonball back (and move in)
2) Take the ball before it lands using a simple volley technique (not a power swinging volley) and move in.

In other words, I'm going to pressure her in some way. Not just let her comfortably hit the same shot all day. But, if that shot is working and her opponents are letting her get away with it, why would she abandon a winning strategy? That would be very foolish.
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
She was in full-time training to be a pro and had a full array of shots; one would hope she'd have a winning strategy against some once-a-week amateur players without having to resort to that horrible style which was obviously designed to frustrate people, all style be damned. Not the way to bring up a young budding pro, IMO, and the people watching seemed to agree.

Playing Pusher's Advocate, maybe she just chose a strategy that was a winner by taking the least amount of risk possible. In that sense, it's a very mature move. Many adults can't seem to grasp this concept.

Clearly you and those around you find the style aesthetically displeasing. But you're not the one playing the match.

She had the right to play as she did and they had the right to clap or boo.

Booing a 13-year old girl because they didn't like her style? That seems pretty low-class, completely at odds with the sportsmanship ethos around which tennis is supposedly built.

She clearly had the game for something different and just chose to win in the ugliest way possible. I didn't boo or comment, by the way, I just watched. However, her style was extremely ugly and a discredit to the sport; here, I said it. You may disagree.

Edit: on second thought (it's been a long time); I do believe she was also very nervous being young and with the dad present. She may have been super tense, for all I know. As I said, I remember I kept quiet and didn't really react so it may have been what I thought at the time. But it didn't make her tennis look any prettier :(

Her mental toughness is a credit to the sport.

And, as I said before, we all push sometimes due to nerves, tiredness, 'regular' shots not going in, strong wind etc. But full-time pushing is more of a mentality than a particular choice of shots, IMO. I actually don't mind pushers who clearly have no other big weapons. But I very much dislike people who have all the shots and choose to push just to win an extra match here and there while basically building their own glass ceiling. It stunts both players' progress, IMO- the pusher's and the unfortunate opponent's.

I neither like nor dislike them: it's their tennis and it's their choice. They probably don't care about your concern about their glass ceiling. Just like my choices are mine to make.

For example, I S&V: people tell me all of the time "no one plays S&V anymore; it's a dinosaur" [implying that I'm a dinosaur, which is possibly true but a different argument altogether], which is obviously false since I'm doing it. I just ignore them. I'm playing the game the way I want to play it and if my opponent doesn't like it, that's his problem, not mine.

If someone asked me whether he should choose pushing as a long-term strategy for maximum opportunity to improve, I'd advise against it. On that front, I am in full agreement with you. I just don't have such a visceral dislike of it and its proponents. Certainly not a 13-year old girl who won a tournament by playing a style the opposition obviously could not deal with [which is the shortcoming of the opposition, not the winner].
 
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