The use of the non dominant hand in forehand takeback
- Thread starter zill
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
You misspelled " double-handed backhand" in your thread title
zill
G.O.A.T.
No this thread is about the FOREHAND!
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
There you go. You misspelled it again
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
To me, two purposes of non dominant hand. 1. help initiating early unit turn when developing the full stroke. Unit turn should be second nature after a while. Then hand doesn't pay a role there anymore. 2. Help measuring spacing. Not sure what is the point of differentiating carry vs bring.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Bring? Carry? Huh?
I've always advocated that the notion that the non-dom hand should carry most of the weight of the racket for the ready position and for the unit turn so that the dominant hand and arm can remain (more) relaxed.
Once the racket is at the 3 o'clock position, its orientation is much closer to vertical than it is to horizontal. With the racket in this orientation, the dominant hand can continue to stay relaxed. Subsequently, the racket head is allowed to drop and that hand continues to stay relaxed -- as part of the downward motion is due to gravity pulling the racket head down.
Also, with the hands, especially the upper hand, setting the racket during the unit turn, that movement of the racket is accomplished with the coiling of the torso rather an active movement of the arms.
I've always advocated that the notion that the non-dom hand should carry most of the weight of the racket for the ready position and for the unit turn so that the dominant hand and arm can remain (more) relaxed.
Once the racket is at the 3 o'clock position, its orientation is much closer to vertical than it is to horizontal. With the racket in this orientation, the dominant hand can continue to stay relaxed. Subsequently, the racket head is allowed to drop and that hand continues to stay relaxed -- as part of the downward motion is due to gravity pulling the racket head down.
Also, with the hands, especially the upper hand, setting the racket during the unit turn, that movement of the racket is accomplished with the coiling of the torso rather an active movement of the arms.
sovertennis
Professional
I'm also not sure how the OP differentiates "bring" v "carry" re the non dom hand in the forehand prep. The non dom hand helps initiate the unit turn (per JY, above); as well, because the dom hand should have only minor grip tension (in order to keep the wrist and forearm relaxed), so the non dom hand must play a role in the process.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Definitely, the non-dom arm is not just along for the ride... if that was what you were trying to convey with "bring".
zill
G.O.A.T.
There you go your answer is 'carry'.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
We are still puzzled about what you are trying to say with "bring"
zill
G.O.A.T.
Everyone else are saying 'bring' and 'carry' are the same in this context and I agree now.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Important to note that even tho the non-dominant hand and arm are very active / important for the unit turn, it is really the coiling of the torso / chest that is setting the racket position
zill
G.O.A.T.
Yes but that coil happens after 3 o’clock. I am asking the action from split step to 3 o’clock.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The way I see it turning the chest from 12:00 to 3:00 is already 90° of torso coil.
zill
G.O.A.T.
The way I see it turning the chest from 12:00 to 3:00 is already 90° of torso coil.
I prefer to label this movement from 12:00 to 3:00 as 'fully turning side on' with the shoulder (and some chest) doing most of the turning rather than the entire torso. The entire torso then takes over the turning (at this 3 o'clock position shown above) until power position is reached.
zill
G.O.A.T.
Think I got it now. ‘Bring’ is strong enough a word as the initial full turn of the body will give enough momentum to move the racquet to 3 o’clock and the action of the non dominant arm is then minimal.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I do not accept your definition of coiling. Both the shoulders and chest have rotated (coiled) wrt the baseline.(and wrt the player's feet). This significant turn is responsible for much of the power as the upper torso uncoils.
The chest / shoulders is the upper torso. Here we see that the upper torso has rotated somewhat more than the hips and core (the lower torso). It is this offset that will store potential energy in the core.
After the unit turn, the upper torso does not coil much more than this. I can't really see what point you are trying to make here.
zill
G.O.A.T.
But is Thomaz ready to hit the ball at the 3 o'clock position you posted?
To me the word 'torso' as a single word refers more to the lower torso eg abs. It's the lower torso that stores most of the potential energy coming into effect after 3 o'clock. The upper torso is like the entrée and the lower torso like the main course.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Tomaz could very well hit from the position posted. Something like this will often happen on serve returns and other situations.
There are actually quite a few different possibilities from this position. He could adjust from fully open to semi-open and still maintain stored energy in the core. He could step in for a neutral stance with his front foot angled forward. In this situation he would have somewhat less or separation angle but can compensate for this by uncoiling the hips before uncoiling the upper torso
zill
G.O.A.T.
Ok returns yes. I was referring the the rally ball in the OP.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Are you planning on publishing your own English dictionary? Torso is pretty much equivalent to the trunk of the body. It is not at all uncommon to segment the torso into several sections.
The upper torso (thoracic segment) includes the chest and shoulders. The midriff is aka the core or the abdominal segment. And below that is the pelvic (hips) segment. Often, the midriff and pelvic segments are lumped together as the lower torso.
If the chest (thoracic) and pelvis (hips) turn in unison, I may refer to this as simply, the torso. However in my posts, I pretty much always make a distinction between the upper torso and the lower torso.
Entrée and main course? I do not see it that way. I pretty much see them working together or against each other -- to create potential energy (tension) in the core. Can't have one without the other if you want that PE. Quite often, the lower torso is preset with an open or semi-open stance. The upper torso is rotated (coiled) against this preset base.
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zill
G.O.A.T.
The entree and main course very much works together with each other for me!!
The mid and lower torso is responsible for much more of the power and Thomaz haven’t started that segment yet in the pic. Coiling to me is coiling the mid and lower torso.
So basically the whole prep is broken into 2 steps:
1 Turn (upper torso)
2 Coil (mid and lower torso)
So Thomaz there has turned but not coiled yet according to this definition.
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Stepanek2020
New User
The non-dominant hand first carries together with the dominant hand and then catches afterward. Works great when the forehand is shot with good timing (not too late) and the unit turn keeps on turning after the contact. You can get pretty significant speed, even without much leg work, to the ball if you can handle this combination.
Federer, Aliassime, Thiem, and many others do this constantly in a practice.
Federer, Aliassime, Thiem, and many others do this constantly in a practice.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I do not agree with this. If you turn the upper torso (unit turn) and then coil the hips, then you are minimizing the separation angle and end up with very little tension (stored energy) in the core (mid torso). If you do this, then you must subsequently uncoil the hips prior to uncoiling the upper torso in order to create a separation angle (and PE in the core).
Some high contact shots might start the way that Tomaz is setting up -- if he wishes to hit a aggressive shot. However, at this point, he would more likely uncoil the pelvis / hips rather than coil the hips to generate a more powerful shot.
zill
G.O.A.T.
The turn isn’t a coil for me even though technically you are coiling somewhat but we are talking in terms of tennis strokes context here. The turn for me is so we can set ourselves up to fully coil our entire torso to be in power position.
So in order to fully coil we need to be in the turned position as shown by Thomaz.
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zill
G.O.A.T.
Actually even in the service return some shoulder hip separation is needed. Thomaz in the pic has minimal shoulder hip separation so if he was to hit a ball from that position it would be a very weak ball.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not following. I really have no idea what you are trying to say here
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
However, you previously said that after the position shown, Tomaz would then coil the lower torso (including the core???). This makes no sense whatsoever. If you coil the midriff (core) as well as the hips, where would the twisting energy be stored. Where is the separation angle?
From my perspective, Tomaz might (subsequently increase his knee flexion a bit more and then) uncoil his hips (not his core) to increase the separation angle prior to uncoiling his upper torso.
Here is another possibility from this position. Here, Kevin G takes a step with his left foot to hit the shot with a slightly-open neutral stance. Note that Kevin is not coiling his upper torso any more after his unit turn (as you had suggested previously).
zill
G.O.A.T.
Basically the loading of the body and legs happens AFTER Thomaz's position in the pic. Thomaz has prepped himself (from 12 o'clock position) in preparation to load his body later. But he must get into this turned position first in the pic then fully load. Assuming a normal rally groundstroke.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Still not following what you are trying to say. This does not make your statements in post #23 any clearer
(Later. Going back to bed now)
zill
G.O.A.T.
Ok I missed some technicalities. Basically my 2. Coil coils every part of the torso. The 1. Turn prepares the full coil of the entire body in 2. Thomaz has just completed 1. Turn
Now there is some coil in 1. Turn but that is insignificant compared to the full coil in 2.
The most important part about 2. Coil is the shoulder separation from the body which creates the takeback.
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Niwrad0
Rookie
I was at the gym this week and asked my PT some exercises useful for tennis serving and such
1. Coiling is the action that is used when you need to hurl a 10-15lb weighted exercise bean bag/ball thing about 6 feet into a brick wall fast and high enough so that it bounces back for you to pick it up and throw it again without moving your feet. It's really explosive and mimics a forehand/backhand ground stroke. Also feels pretty badass IMO.
My abs were sore a couple days after, but a good kind of soreness.
2. I am really good at shuffling back and forth between two cones while also catching a tennis ball. PT said that despite moving fast I stop exactly on the cone each time.
Also really out of breath, as I guess I had built up the muscles but not necessarily the aerobic capacity to do it for 30 seconds x 3 with 15s rest periods. Never been quite so out of breath before, even when doing the treadmill or stationary bike at the gym. really maximizes anaerobic capacity.
3. for the serve, I had the same weighted exercise bean bag/ball thing, starting just to the right of my right foot, pick up and lift it up and over my head and throw it hard down to land to the left my left foot. Second exercise was while doing decline sit-up I'd chunk a weighted exercise bean bag/ball thing at the top of the sit-up. these were OK but felt a bit different from the serve and had been doing similar sit-up and dead-lift type of exercises with PT already so didn't really feel like it was a big workout
sovertennis
Professional
The way I see it turning the chest from 12:00 to 3:00 is already 90° of torso coil.
Good pic--illustrates that the torso coils over the hips as the non-dom hand turns with it (torso). Also shows how the dom hand is completely relaxed (note that the fingers have no grip tension) during the unit turn.
It occurs to me that if the non dom hand "brings" or "carries" the racket back it would likely eliminate the unit turn (ie shoulders coiling above hips) aspect of the process. I often see this with players who reach backward with their hands to prep for the fh without also turning the shoulders.
i pictured it as a "push", if your hand is on the throat
or a "reach across", if you tend to release the throat earlier
i used to think of it as the racquet "pulling" the non-dominant hand, but i found it doesn't convey the spacing (eg. "like i'm holding a beach ball") also needed with a good unit turn
or a "reach across", if you tend to release the throat earlier
i used to think of it as the racquet "pulling" the non-dominant hand, but i found it doesn't convey the spacing (eg. "like i'm holding a beach ball") also needed with a good unit turn
zill
G.O.A.T.
Very very light push then.
zill
G.O.A.T.
There is NO torso coil over the hips in that pic. It's almost identical to his position at split step except he is turned side on and holding the racquet differently.
My question was from the split step to 3 o' clock. There should NOT be any hip shoulder separation at this stage as seen in the pic of Thomaz.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@sovertennis
Given the positioning &: orientation of his feet (fully open stance) and the direction his knees are pointed, there is no way that his hips are oriented in the same direction that his chest is.
We can easily see the back of Tomaz's front shoulder which suggests that his upper torso has turned 90° or perhaps even a tad more. However, we are looking at the front of his pelvis from this view. We cannot see the back of his pelvis (back of his left glute) at all
Look closer. Conservative estimate... there is, at the very least, 15-20° more rotation of the chest (shoulder line) wrt to the amount that the hips have turned. He can easily increase that separation angle by uncoiling the hips a bit earlier than the upper torso.
Given the positioning &: orientation of his feet (fully open stance) and the direction his knees are pointed, there is no way that his hips are oriented in the same direction that his chest is.
We can easily see the back of Tomaz's front shoulder which suggests that his upper torso has turned 90° or perhaps even a tad more. However, we are looking at the front of his pelvis from this view. We cannot see the back of his pelvis (back of his left glute) at all
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1HBHfanatic
Legend
-shhhhh, dont say that too loud!!
-you might wake up some 3.5s who haven't discovered/figured this out for themselves yet
zill
G.O.A.T.
For all practical purposes the negligible separation there is not enough to hit a ball of any respect. Also he is going a tad past 3 o’clock there just to illustrate his point.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Incorrect Not at all negligible. And this preset separation can easily be increased with his next move
zill
G.O.A.T.
Yes next move is my 2. coil
He has just completed my 1.turn
He however does not hit the ball after just 1. which is the position he is in now. Basically after the turn he is in essentially the same position as 12 o’clock but turned 90 degrees with shoulder joint facing the opponent. There is no or negligible hip shoulder separation after 1.
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
in my humble opinion, the off hand does nothing. similar to how you hold the racquet with both of your hand when you are idle, just that.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Any decent coach will tell you that this thinking is flawed. The off hand assumes the lion's share of the weight of the racquet for the ready position as well as during the unit turn so that the dominant hand (fingers) and arm can remain relaxed.
Furthermore, the off hand ensures that the turning of the torso, rather than the dominant arm, takes the racquet to the side (3 o'clock position for a right hander) for the unit turn.
Thirdly, with the non-dominant hand on the racquet, for the unit turn, a full quarter turn of the upper torso (chest & shoulders) will occur (emphasized in the image and video below).
+1Any decent coach will tell you that this thinking is flawed. The off hand assumes the lion's share of the weight of the racquet for the ready position as well as during the unit turn so that the dominant hand (fingers) and arm can remain relaxed.
Furthermore, the off hand ensures that the turning of the torso, rather than the dominant arm, takes the racquet to the side (3 o'clock position for a right hander) for the unit turn.
Thirdly, with the non-dominant hand on the racquet, for the unit turn, a full quarter turn of the upper torso (chest & shoulders) will occur (emphasized in the image and video below).
or just try it yourself... try keeping your offhand in your pocket as you do the forehand motion, you can probably get it back (especially for sufficiently slow incoming ball speeds), but for me the quality is not as good (not as much , my balance is off, body out of sync, etc...).. for me as a righty, my left hand acts as important counterbalance in the fh (eg. even when doing running sprints (no unit turn needed), my body feels out of sync only "pumping" with 1arm)
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
in my mind, when I think about doing nothing I am thinking that the hand doesn't move much from idle, you do hold the racquet when you idle. If you put one hand in the pocket that means you are making an effort to put it in the pocket (due to where the pocket is when you move around it will always be changing), so I would see putting in the pocket an effort not the opposite
TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
Some coaches teach that you use the non-dominant hand/arm to make a good unit turn but go no further than 3 o’clock. In this video he goes past 3 o’clock then says at contact to then bring the non dominant hand to roughly 3 oclock. I see no need to take it past 3 o’clock. Maybe it’s what he prefers but I think it’s a choice. I’ve watched professional matches and I see both methods.Any decent coach will tell you that this thinking is flawed. The off hand assumes the lion's share of the weight of the racquet for the ready position as well as during the unit turn so that the dominant hand (fingers) and arm can remain relaxed.
Furthermore, the off hand ensures that the turning of the torso, rather than the dominant arm, takes the racquet to the side (3 o'clock position for a right hander) for the unit turn.
Thirdly, with the non-dominant hand on the racquet, for the unit turn, a full quarter turn of the upper torso (chest & shoulders) will occur (emphasized in the image and video below).
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Like Tomaz and Kevin G, I advocated taking the non-dominant hand all the way back to (even with) the back shoulder. So just slightly more than the 3 o'clock position. Kevin G explains, in detail, in his video why he promotes this.
Many players will release the non-dom hand early -- at the 1 o'clock or 1:30 position. By promoting that hand on the racquet further back, it helps students to refrain from releasing it too early
From this implementation of the unit turn, the non-dominant arm subsequently extends out toward the side fence (more or less parallel to the baseline). Among other things, this helps with spacing wrt to the incoming ball when the player is in a semi-open or neutral stance.
what i see in 90% of the beginners i've taught... they just keep their non-dom hand dangling by their side (almost like it was in their pocket)... so i have to make them consciously do something with their non-dom handl
i'm guessing you've been doing whatever you do with your non-dom hand (presuming that it's doing something more than dangling limp to your side), that it feels like you're not doing anything (or not putting much/any effort).
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
you made me think of a better way to explain. when I say no effort or doing nothing on the off hand I also mean for the one holding the racquet handle. Because if you dangle your off hand, the main hand will have to take all the effort to keep the racquet up. This will result in the take back not effortless and that's really what I was saying when I mean no effort.
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