The wrist snap on the serve is not a bad tip

[BetaServe]

First, here are the words from people who can actually serve:

Bryan brothers at 0:19
"..to get all the racquet head acceleration at the top and snap the wrist, that's how you get most of the power"

Robin Soderling at 0:42
"Think that you're hitting on top of the ball, that way you can use your wrist more..."

Djokovic at 0:43
"It's very important at the moment of impact, the speed and pace you get is from the wrist.."

Evan (D1 player) from 7:43 to 8:21
"The wrist is the most important part to pace.....When you have more wrist, you can keep your body more in control. Right now you don't have wrist so you generate all the power with your body..."

--------------------
Yes, it's not a bad advice and I'll tell you why:
- The "you should snap the wrist" tip actually allows the player (assuming having continental grip) to stay relaxed with their wrist and feel the "release" at contact AND although you hear the words "wrist snap", you're not actually snapping the wrist (i.e wrist flexion)
vs
- The "you should pronate" tip can actually make your wrist stiff and stops you from feeling the release

Bottom line is the "wrong" advice can lead to the right things and the "correct" advice can lead to the wrong things.

And this is why I should listen to people who can do things and not TW folks who can't do things.

 

[coupergear]

There are no bad tips, only bad players.

 

[BetaServe]

This is similar to this video:

You know that's not what actually happens but it can help you mentally and allows you to spin the ball.
Again, the "wrong" advice that can lead to the right things is a good advice.

 

[FiReFTW]

Why are you suprized?

Most people will say shoulder rotation/pronation is using ur wrist, it sure feels so, because the object (racquet) in ur hand is rotating, so feels like ur using ur hand/wrist to do it... obviously mechanically its not like that.

 

[BetaServe]

Why are you suprized?

Most people will say shoulder rotation/pronation is using ur wrist, it sure feels so, because the object (racquet) in ur hand is rotating, so feels like ur using ur hand/wrist to do it... obviously mechanically its not like that.

Tell that to @SystemicAnomaly Also you didn't notice the number of people who get offended when hearing this wrist snap tip?

 

[fuzz nation]

Tell that to @SystemicAnomaly Also you didn't notice the number of people who get offended when hearing this wrist snap tip?

There aren't too many tips that are universally right or wrong. The very best teachers I've seen doing their thing are the ones who can figure out which tip to use in a given situation to get the light bulb between the ears to switch on.

The wrist snap idea can be fantastic for somebody who does too much of a paddling motion over the top with a firm wrist that really kills racquet head speed through the ball. But it can be a disaster if it's interpreted incorrectly and coaxes a player toward using an overly active wrist bend (flexion?) or maybe too much wrist supination.

Advising more "wrist snap" without any further information can be risky, so that's something I might object to without being at the courts with somebody to see what they're actually doing.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

First, here are the words from people who can actually serve:

Bryan brothers at 0:19
"..to get all the racquet head acceleration at the top and snap the wrist, that's how you get most of the power"

Robin Soderling at 0:42
"Think that you're hitting on top of the ball, that way you can use your wrist more..."

Djokovic at 0:43
"It's very important at the moment of impact, the speed and pace you get is from the wrist.."

Evan (D1 player) from 7:43 to 8:21
"The wrist is the most important part to pace.....When you have more wrist, you can keep your body more in control. Right now you don't have wrist so you generate all the power with your body..."

--------------------
Yes, it's not a bad advice and I'll tell you why:
- The "you should snap the wrist" tip actually allows the player (assuming having continental grip) to stay relaxed with their wrist and feel the "release" at contact AND although you hear the words "wrist snap", you're not actually snapping the wrist (i.e wrist flexion)
vs
- The "you should pronate" tip can actually make your wrist stiff and stops you from feeling the release

Bottom line is the "wrong" advice can lead to the right things and the "correct" advice can lead to the wrong things.

And this is why I should listen to people who can do things and not TW folks who can't do things.

Caveat:

"Wrong" or flawed advice can, indeed, elicit proper technique. I have, occasionally, provided technically "wrong" instruction to a (live) student in order to elicit a desired response. HOWEVER, flawed or technically incorrect advice can also do more harm than good. I've seen this happen all too often -- sometimes, more often than not. In fact, I was a victim of flawed advice in the 70s and early 80s. I took me years to recover from "wrong" advice. "Backscratch" & "Wrist Snap" are 2 examples of these fallacies that can do more harm than good.

Also, do not fall into the trap believing that ppl who excel at doing things are necessarily the ones who will give the best verbal advice. Federer has admitted that he does not know what grips he uses for some of his strokes. He has also indicated that he is not aware of exactly how he executes some of his technique. Djokovic advises using "wrist snap" on the serve. However, inspection of his serve does not reveal a "wrist snap" that many regard as a "wrist snap". His advise may help some individuals but it can also lead many astray.

 

[BetaServe]

I took me years to recover from "wrong" advice. .

I could say the same thing about "correct" advice. It took me years to recover from "correct" advice. "Pronation" is one of them.
I think fuzz nation made a good point there. No advice is universally bad or good. Lesson here is don't cringe when you hear an advice that you think is "bad".

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I could say the same thing about "correct" advice. It took me years to recover from "correct" advice. "Pronation" is one of them.
I think fuzz nation made a good point there. No advice is universally bad or good. Lesson here is don't cringe when you hear an advice that you think is "bad".

Actually, advising "pronation" or "ESR + pronation" is best when also shown the proper technique. Also, the advice-giver should provide feedback, especially if the advice-taker is incorrectly implementing the advice. However, this is a difficult task on a forum that is primarily text-based. Visual aids certainly help. But there is still no guarantee that the reader will correctly implement the forum advice.

I started teaching tennis in the (late 70s &) 80s and then nearly full-time more than 20 yrs ago. Trust me, giving instruction in person and giving instruction online will often be different approaches. Things I say (& demonstrate) "live" might be something I would not say online. With the latter, it is often even more important to make certain that your advise or instruction is not ambiguous. Too much advise I have seen here has been ambiguous -- it may help some but it can also potentially lead many readers astray.
.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Caveat:

"Wrong" or flawed advice can, indeed, elicit proper technique. I have, occasionally, provided technically "wrong" instruction to a (live) student in order to elicit a desired response. HOWEVER, flawed or technically incorrect advice can also do more harm than good. I've seen this happen all too often -- sometimes, more often than not. In fact, I was a victim of flawed advice in the 70s and early 80s. I took me years to recover from "wrong" advice. "Backscratch" & "Wrist Snap" are 2 examples of these fallacies that can do more harm than good.

How did "wrist snap" harm you? Was your wrist going far beyond neutral position on the serve? Any injury?

Note that Federer looks to be moving from a slightly extended wrist position to a neutral wrist position. But not much beyond neutral. As long as one follows that guideline, and verify it on video, the "wrist snap" cue could work.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

How did "wrist snap" harm you? Was your wrist going far beyond neutral position on the serve? Any injury?

Note that Federer looks to be moving from a slightly flexed wrist to a neutral wrist position. But not much beyond neutral. As long as one follows that guideline, and verify it on video, the "wrist snap" cue could work.

I'm not talking about physical injury/harm. Tho' that might actually happen with an exaggerated wrist snap/flexion.The harm inflicted may be the development of a suboptimal or a flawed technique that may take some ppl years to correct. Some never do recover from this "harm".

One problem is that when coaches or players say "wrist snap" they do not adequately demonstrate exactly what they mean. In the minds of many ppl, "wrist snap" implies an exaggerated extension and then flexion-- and usually as a fairly rapid action. Or players will often devleop a proper technique that has been presented as "wrist snap". But when they advise their friends, relatives or colleagues to "snap the wrist" they do not provide an adequate demonstration and feedback. And then their disciples turn around and tell others to "snap the wrist" as well -- with little or no demonstration & feedback at all. And then that "advise" propagates and spreads like wildfire.

In the 90s and 00s, I had seen some very decent server-instructors advise a wrist snap and employ an exaggerated wrist flexion in their own serve.They developed a pretty decent serve despite the "flaw". However, many of their students may not have been so fortunate with this flaw.
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[Curious]

What the hell is wrist snap? Seems like an illusion.

 

[Raul_SJ]

One problem is that when coaches or players say "wrist snap" they do not adequately demonstrate exactly what they mean. In the minds of many ppl, "wrist snap" implies an exaggerated extension and then flexion-- and usually as a fairly rapid action. Or players will often devleop a proper technique that has been presented as "wrist snap". But when they advise their friends, relatives or colleagues to "snap the wrist" they do not provide an adequate demonstration and feedback. And then their disciples turn around and tell others to "snap the wrist" as well -- with little or no demonstration & feedback at all. And then that "advise" propagates and spreads like wildfire.

In the 90s and 00s, I had seen some very decent server-instructors advise a wrist snap and employ an exaggerated wrist flexion in their own serve.They developed a pretty decent serve despite the "flaw". However, many of their students may not have been so fortunate with this flaw.
.

It is possible guys like Djok (or other top pros), might describe something incorrectly, i.e. "flex the wrist", and propagate bad advise. Even though they are obviously doing it correctly on their real serve.

 

[kaninfaan]

What the hell is wrist snap? Seems like an illusion.

It's also quite rare for two people to mean the same thing when they say "wrist-snap".
Which adds to the confusion and that's why it's bad advice.
Unless, of course, you stumble upon someone who accidentally does the correct thing after you've told them to "snap the wrist".
Coaching by spewing as many buzzwords as possible so that once someone stumbles upon the right thing you can claim to have told them so.

 

[HunterST]

Wait, what's with this postmodern movement tennis advice movement on here?

Of course there's bad tennis advice. I would also push back on the idea that you should misrepresent what proper technique is to a player. You could ask them to try and exaggerate or tell them you want it to feel like something is happening, but there's no reason to lie about what the actual technique is.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

What the hell is wrist snap? Seems like an illusion.

Yes, it's an illusion. A mirage. An apparition.

Many will erroneously interpret a rapid rotation of the forearm (along with the hand & wrist) as a snapping of the wrist.
.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Wait, what's with this postmodern movement tennis advice movement on here?

Of course there's bad tennis advice. I would also push back on the idea that you should misrepresent what proper technique is to a player. You could ask them to try and exaggerate or tell them you want it to feel like something is happening, but there's no reason to lie about what the actual technique is.

Many students primarily want a useful image or cue. They often don't care about the "dirty" details of the actual mechanics.
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[HunterST]

Many students primarily want a useful image or cue. They often don't care about the "dirty" details of the actual mechanics.
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I can agree, but I still think it would be better to say something like "it will feel like a wrist snap." Eventually, it's going to be limiting if the person has a bunch of incorrect beliefs about proper technique.

 

[WildVolley]

"Wrist snap" IS bad advice.

It is probably the strongest piece of evidence demonstrating that many TTI poasters have a better understanding of the actual physical mechanics of the tennis serve than some professional tennis players, even tennis players who are ranked #1 in the world.

I've personally seen a coach showing a wrist snap to a pretty good server (Raonic). At the time I thought: I understand the serve better than a guy teaching Raonic! Because I did.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Can the wrist snap be shown in a clear high speed video? Please post the time of the snap in a video. Or a picture of the snap. Or a range of the snap.

Elliott et al since about 1995 has the wrist joint as providing the second most "contribution" to the serve, ~ 30%. Here "contribution" means the joint motion observed to be contributing at the instant of impact. Everything in these statements is about the joint motion speed and the racket head speed in the forward direction and nothing is said about the forces or accelerations at impact or just before impact. For that, additional biomechanics is used. Elliott's joint motions vs time were measured and are shown. They show acceleration, more or less the same speed or deceleration (after peaks).

Here is a measurement by the early researchers. Does snap involve wrist flexion? Are muscles supplying forces or is the 100 MPH racket moving the wrist joint into flexion? Notice the peak joint speed of ISR and wrist flexion are milliseconds before impact in these early measurements. Highlighted in Yellow are ISR and pronation. Where is the snap?

These are early measurements of "elite" tennis players.

High speed video is the sanity check.

Here is a Raonic serve close up of the wrist. Where is the snap?

For single frame hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

 

[BetaServe]

"Wrist snap" IS bad advice.

It is probably the strongest piece of evidence demonstrating that many TTI poasters have a better understanding of the actual physical mechanics of the tennis serve than some professional tennis players, even tennis players who are ranked #1 in the world.

I've personally seen a coach showing a wrist snap to a pretty good server (Raonic). At the time I thought: I understand the serve better than a guy teaching Raonic! Because I did.

That tells me you don't need to know everything to do things properly and be good at tennis. And the wrist snap advice obviously didn't affect Bryan brothers, Djokovic, Soderling and Raonic's serves at all.
And let's be honest here, you understand the serve better than the guy teaching Raonic but you wouldn't be able to teach Raonic better than that guy.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

High speed video is the sanity check.

Here is a Raonic serve close up of the wrist. Where is the snap?

For single frame hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

I think what pros and coaches call snap is really nothing more than what you see at around 0:12 in that Raonic video where the RACQUET snaps down on the ball. So it is a racquet snap rather than a wrist snap. I have been taking coaching from a chap who coaches high performance juniors but whose advice is surprisingly old school. Whether it's groundies or serve, he never wants me to hold the racquet so loose that it nearly drops off and rather recommends not letting the racquet shake too much during the contact zone. And at the same time, it has to still be loose enough that the slight snap happens - on its own and without an active intervention on my part - just before the racquet comes down on the ball.

Now this is just HIS view so take it for what it is but that slight snap is what gives the ball spin on serves (and leads to a lot of bounce as well). Same deal on the forehand too. No active flex of the wrist. But it happens anyway when the racquet passes from takeback to contact. In both shots - serve and forehand - the racquet is facing one way during takeback/racquet drop and another at contact. That movement is enough and your grip needs only to be loose enough to not stop that from happening. Before this, I have tried a really loose grip and it only leads to inconsistency. At least for me, there never was a point where it got to me being able to somehow hold it really loose and still maintain consistent form.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Do you mean at impact? 12 sec on my video, the racket is not showing.

What is a snap? Many threads involve undefined terms and each poster's personal interpretation of what snap means. These threads over the years don't move forward.

Search: wrist snap

Each time I see a Snap thread, I ask for pictures to show what is meant by snap. All the joint motions have long been defined, described in detail in text books and references, are taught in college courses and can be Googled. I also ask what defined joint motions make up the elusive 'snap'. The racket is moving at 100 MPH at impact for the serve, the arm rotates from ISR so that if the racket head continues forward the wrist becomes able to flex and often but not always you see some flexion. Rather than describe in a single word, show high speed videos and their variations for communication of stroke movements. See the Soderling video.....motion blur. See Raonic video in Post #20. Why can't 'snap' be shown in a video?

Ladies and gentlemen, in the right corner we have from Posterville, the elusive one word contender, SNAP and in the left corner we have the 2000 year old study of human motion from Academia, World Champion!, DEFINED JOINT MOTIONS.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I've thrown this in a lot of the serve discussion, having Djo as a good example of keeping a loose wrist and allowing the racket to flow/lag/snap/whip whatever everyone calls it, but increasing power and action on the serve. This is a good example I think.

Just a lot less effort in body when the RHS speed is there.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

That tells me you don't need to know everything to do things properly and be good at tennis. And the wrist snap advice obviously didn't affect Bryan brothers, Djokovic, Soderling and Raonic's serves at all.
And let's be honest here, you understand the serve better than the guy teaching Raonic but you wouldn't be able to teach Raonic better than that guy.

Elite players (like the Bryans, Djoko, Soderling, Raonic, et al) develop high level serves DESPITE the flawed instruction. They either ignored the instruction and figured it out for themselves or they were SHOWN correct technique.

Don't know if WV could do a better job or not. But with the advice I've seen from him in this forum, it is certainly possible. Before Djoko "fixed" his serve in 2010/2011, I had been pointing out flaws in his motion in this forum. And, even tho' they have some of the biggest of current WTA serves, I can certain see flaws in the serves of Goerges & Muguruza.
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[SystemicAnomaly]

I think what pros and coaches call snap is really nothing more than what you see at around 0:12 in that Raonic video where the RACQUET snaps down on the ball. So it is a racquet snap rather than a wrist snap...

Not so sure about that. Given a more complete picture/video of the serve (and racquet), that "snap" is mostly in an upward direction. The racquet face is often slightly closed for many elite servers but it is usually still moving in upward direction at contact -- that is, the highest position of the racquet head is a little bit after the ball has left the strings. The DOWN perception we have of an elite serve is primarily the down that occurs just after contact. But it happens so fast, in real time, we perceive it as the server snapping down on the ball. Perhaps, for a super-tall server like Raonic or Isner, there might be an actual "down" on the ball at impact -- but most of that so-called snap is still in an upward direction.
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[atp2015]

How much speed can wrist snap add to RHS? The max my wrist can flex is 9 inches. Let's say it can flex 1 whole foot to make it simple.
How much speed an object can gain by traveling 1 ft? It would have to accelerate at 15 ft per second to reach 10MPH. At the most, the wrist can travel 1ft by itself, so it would have to gain speed in 66 milliseconds(1/15th second) to achieve just 10mph. So the wrist snap has to occur 66 milliseconds before the contact. The wrist snap changes the racket angle, and so the timing has to be near perfect.
No matter what any player says, there's no way the wrist has time or distance to add value to RHS. In fact, the wrist snap can hurt the serve consistency (as well as the wrist itself)

 

[Chas Tennis]

First, here are the words from people who can actually serve:
..................................................................................................................................
Djokovic at 0:43
"It's very important at the moment of impact, the speed and pace you get is from the wrist.."

..................................

This video was posted in 2009. As SystemicAnaomly mentions Djokovic had serving issues then. It involved his upper arm being too low I believe. It has been discussed particularly by SA.

Look at sec 43 to 57, when he discusses the racket approach to the ball. What viewer could understand that the most important joint motion contribution to racket head speed at the instant of impact is internal shoulder rotation (ISR) at 40%? It's completely left out! Wrist motions are second at 30%. The part played by muscles of the wrist vs other muscles is an open issue. He speaks of leaving the wrist loose.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

In the Djokovic serve video video posted by ChaelAZ, I see the wrist motion as similar to Raonic's, still not distinct snap, what ever that might be.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I can agree, but I still think it would be better to say something like "it will feel like a wrist snap." Eventually, it's going to be limiting if the person has a bunch of incorrect beliefs about proper technique.

To me is does not "feel like a wrist snap". But yeah, I get what you mean. Employing useful cues/images is not really providing an incorrect belief. But, with many students, I will provide some details of the technique -- so that if it breaks down some time in the future, they have some idea what they might be doing wrong. OTOH, it is best for most players not to dwell on these details -- it is usually far better to develop a "feel" for the correct technique. Images or cues will often help with this feel.

 

[acintya]

here is my advice: if you really want to learn proper serve try to serve it with the non dominant hand - it will give you more insight than 100 videos.
it will be easier for you to divide spin and power with the non dominant hand. learn it from the ground up if you have time - every knowledge will translate to you right side.

the same i am saying about the forehand. cant wait to upload some videos but it will take at least a year until im ready.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

here is my advice: if you really want to learn proper serve try to serve it with the non dominant hand - it will give you more insight than 100 videos.
it will be easier for you to divide spin and power with the non dominant hand. learn it from the ground up if you have time

I learned quite a lot about mechanics and how to teach novice and intermediate players by teaching myself to serve and hit g'strokes right-handed (I'm naturally a lefty with racquet sports). I got my righty serve up to a decent 4.0 ntrp level.
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[acintya]

I learned quite a lot about mechanics and how to teach novice and intermediate players by teaching myself to serve and hit g'strokes right-handed (I'm naturally a lefty with racquet sports).
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great!!how it is going? i converted to a leftie this is my first year. the forehand is slowly getting to where i want it - im am doing at least 50-100 shadowstrokes a day to accelerate the process.it will be a long way but i have hope.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

great!!how it is going? i converted to a leftie this is my first year. the forehand is slowly getting to where i want it - im am doing at least 50-100 shadowstrokes a day to accelerate the process.it will be a long way but i have hope.

Have not played in over 3 years. Need a hip replacement before I can get back on the courts to play. Also need to repair my favorite (left) shoulder. Old volleyball injury from the early 90s. Switched to playing volleyball right-handed more than 25 yrs ago. Had already learned to play ping-pong with either hand at an intermediate level. Switching arms for tennis and badminton proved to be a bit more challenging than pp or vball.

Tossing the ball for a righty serve is not easy these days cuz of the lefty shoulder issue. I can still hit very decent FHs with either arm. I never really developed a very good righty BH. But I can shadow swing it well enough to properly demonstrate the mechanics to students. Have learned to shadow swing all types of BHs: 2-handed, 1-handed slice & 1-handed topspin. I actually found the righty serve easier to master than the BH since I naturally throw with my right arm.
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[SystemicAnomaly]

great!!how it is going? i converted to a leftie this is my first year. the forehand is slowly getting to where i want it - im am doing at least 50-100 shadowstrokes a day to accelerate the process.it will be a long way but i have hope.

BTW, no wrist snaps or back scratching for my righty serves or g'strokes.

 

[Raul_SJ]

here is my advice: if you really want to learn proper serve try to serve it with the non dominant hand - it will give you more insight than 100 videos.
it will be easier for you to divide spin and power with the non dominant hand. learn it from the ground up if you have time - every knowledge will translate to you right side.

the same i am saying about the forehand. cant wait to upload some videos but it will take at least a year until im ready.

Let's say I have developed a decent righty 3.5serve. But still with lots of issues.
It would still be helpful to go and spend time to learn a lefty serve? And there will be carry over benefits to my righty serve?
My righty serve can hit 90mph. My lefty serve (never practiced it) feels like it's 10mph, if it even gets over the net.

 

[WildVolley]

That tells me you don't need to know everything to do things properly and be good at tennis. And the wrist snap advice obviously didn't affect Bryan brothers, Djokovic, Soderling and Raonic's serves at all.

Yes, of course you don't. One of the reasons to use video is that what a player believes he is doing, and what he is actually doing, can be two different things. Understanding the mechanics of the serve can help you use video to assess potential errors, but won't in itself make you a better server. There really can be a difference between "understanding" and "doing." Once you get reasonably competent at serving, most of it will be handled subconsciously, such that you can focus on targets, strategy, etc.

For a touring pro, the important thing isn't "understanding" but "doing." If they don't win, they don't get the prize money.

I think too much time here is spent arguing about verbal cues (snap the wrist, lag and snap, pat-the-dog, etc) rather than understanding motion patterns. I like the work Yandell, Chas Tennis, and others have done with high speed video.

And let's be honest here, you understand the serve better than the guy teaching Raonic but you wouldn't be able to teach Raonic better than that guy.

I'm not so certain about that. Certainly the guy probably has touring experience and definitely can play better than I ever have, so I'm not arguing I'd be a better overall coach. But I'm not so certain I couldn't be a helpful serve coach for someone like Raonic.

If I were coaching Raonic, I wouldn't suggest snapping his wrist and certainly would be very careful before suggesting any technical changes since Raonic serves so extremely well and without injury. Honestly, I'd have to use slow motion video to assess what is going on.

Instead, I'd focus on marginal things that might help him win, such as drills on disguising his targets and drilling particular serves which have been statistically successful based on past match-ups. Obviously, I'll never be a serve coach for tour players, but I've learned some things here that might actually allow me to help a top professional. For example, a lot of us here noticed that Djokovic had a tendency to drop his elbow in trophy. Maybe it is just ego, but I think I could have suggested drills and cues to keep that from happening. His coaches have done a good job at correcting that error as recent slow motion video shows.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Can the wrist snap be shown in a clear high speed video? Please post the time of the snap in a video. Or a picture of the snap. Or a range of the snap.

Elliott et al since about 1995 has the wrist joint as providing the second most "contribution" to the serve, ~ 30%. Here "contribution" means the joint motion observed to be contributing at the instant of impact. Everything in these statements is about the joint motion speed and the racket head speed in the forward direction and nothing is said about the forces or accelerations at impact or just before impact. For that, additional biomechanics is used. Elliott's joint motions vs time were measured and are shown. They show acceleration, more or less the same speed or deceleration (after peaks).

Here is a measurement by the early researchers. Does snap involve wrist flexion? Are muscles supplying forces or is the 100 MPH racket moving the wrist joint into flexion? Notice the peak joint speed of ISR and wrist flexion are milliseconds before impact in these early measurements

From the Federer video, it looks like the wrist moves from an extended position to an approximately neutral position. In other words, there is significant wrist movement in the flexion direction, from extended to less extended, but the wrist does not break much beyond the neutral position and go into flexion (as some might wrongly interpret the "wrist snap" cue)...Not clear on the power contribution. My interpretation of the graph is that wrist flexion contributes 30% of the power on a serve? But that sounds surprisingly high.

@SystemicAnomaly , do you agree with the above?

 

[mbm0912]

I've thrown this in a lot of the serve discussion, having Djo as a good example of keeping a loose wrist and allowing the racket to flow/lag/snap/whip whatever everyone calls it, but increasing power and action on the serve. This is a good example I think.

Just a lot less effort in body when the RHS speed is there.

he's okay I guess...

 

[Raul_SJ]

I've thrown this in a lot of the serve discussion, having Djo as a good example of keeping a loose wrist and allowing the racket to flow/lag/snap/whip whatever everyone calls it, but increasing power and action on the serve. This is a good example I think.

Just a lot less effort in body when the RHS speed is there.

How do you spot a non-loose wrist? As long as the arm is relaxed and grip is not tight, loose wrist should always happen.

 

[mbm0912]

How do you spot a non-loose wrist? As long as the arm is relaxed and grip is not tight, loose wrist should always happen.

there will be a bend in a loose wrist

 

[BetaServe]

To me is does not "feel like a wrist snap". But yeah, I get what you mean. Employing useful cues/images is not really providing an incorrect belief. But, with many students, I will provide some details of the technique -- so that if it breaks down some time in the future, they have some idea what they might be doing wrong. OTOH, it is best for most players not to dwell on these details -- it is usually far better to develop a "feel" for the correct technique. Images or cues will often help with this feel.

If it doesn't feel like a wrist sap to you, then I think you're not getting all the RHS.
Can you try these 2 experiments:
1) Try to hit the ball straight down to the ground (continental grip + using the whole arm not just the forearm + you don't have to hit hard, just relax your wrist and hit the ball down the ground). Let me know if you get the same feeling when hitting your normal serve.
2) Hit serve to the service box but on the same side of the court (basically hitting the top of the ball). Let me know if you get the same feeling when hitting your normal serve.

 

[IowaGuy]

How much speed can wrist snap add to RHS? The max my wrist can flex is 9 inches. Let's say it can flex 1 whole foot to make it simple.
How much speed an object can gain by traveling 1 ft? It would have to accelerate at 15 ft per second to reach 10MPH. At the most, the wrist can travel 1ft by itself, so it would have to gain speed in 66 milliseconds(1/15th second) to achieve just 10mph. So the wrist snap has to occur 66 milliseconds before the contact. The wrist snap changes the racket angle, and so the timing has to be near perfect.
No matter what any player says, there's no way the wrist has time or distance to add value to RHS. In fact, the wrist snap can hurt the serve consistency (as well as the wrist itself)

If it doesn't feel like a wrist sap to you, then I think you're not getting all the RHS.
Can you try these 2 experiments:
1) Try to hit the ball straight down to the ground (continental grip + using the whole arm not just the forearm + you don't have to hit hard, just relax your wrist and hit the ball down the ground). Let me know if you get the same feeling when hitting your normal serve.
2) Hit serve to the service box but on the same side of the court (basically hitting the top of the ball). Let me know if you get the same feeling when hitting your normal serve.

Couple of good videos on this topic from McLennan, he pronates with a cast on his wrist in the 2nd video:

 

[atp2015]

It would be interesting to know the high school math and science class grades of folks who believe in wrist snap.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Do you mean at impact? 12 sec on my video, the racket is not showing.

What is a snap? Many threads involve undefined terms and each poster's personal interpretation of what snap means. These threads over the years don't move forward.

Sorry it's actually at 0:15. Now it's a very subtle thing but if the racquet had maintained the same angle that it was coming in at, it would not bend down on the ball as it does there. So that's the snap. I agree in essence that perhaps snap is too extreme a word and throws off people but it is what my coach uses too. All he is saying is he doesn't want me to completely inhibit that subtle movement of the racquet just before contact. Could there possibly be a better word for it? Sure but I am not aware of which. But this is why I said it is a racquet snap rather than a wrist snap. You do not want to actively snap the wrist on the serve. But you do want the racquet to drop on the ball at an angle and this happens as long as the wrist is relaxed. If that is the correct word and as I am not a physics or biomechanics student, I would not be able to produce the perfect semiotic approximation of what is happening.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Not so sure about that. Given a more complete picture/video of the serve (and racquet), that "snap" is mostly in an upward direction. The racquet face is often slightly closed for many elite servers but it is usually still moving in upward direction at contact -- that is, the highest position of the racquet head is a little bit after the ball has left the strings. The DOWN perception we have of an elite serve is primarily the down that occurs just after contact. But it happens so fast, in real time, we perceive it as the server snapping down on the ball. Perhaps, for a super-tall server like Raonic or Isner, there might be an actual "down" on the ball at impact -- but most of that so-called snap is still in an upward direction.
.

Possibly so. You may well be right about it. I try not to analyse it so deeply because I then get confused. I go by instinct and just try to listen to what the coach is saying. Even if the coach(es) is not being precise, they are usually just trying to guide you in a particular direction to get you to do what they want you to, so it's all good as long as it's not bad technique.

 

[BetaServe]

It would be interesting to know the high school math and science class grades of folks who believe in wrist snap.

I got all C's

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If it doesn't feel like a wrist sap to you, then I think you're not getting all the RHS.
Can you try these 2 experiments:
1) Try to hit the ball straight down to the ground (continental grip + using the whole arm not just the forearm + you don't have to hit hard, just relax your wrist and hit the ball down the ground). Let me know if you get the same feeling when hitting your normal serve.
2) Hit serve to the service box but on the same side of the court (basically hitting the top of the ball). Let me know if you get the same feeling when hitting your normal serve.

No, I don't need a serve that "feels like a wrist snap". ~20 years ago, I was serving at a 5.0/5.5 ntrp level (Div II collegiate level). My lefty serve was the best part of my game. I even learned to hit a righty serve at a 4.0+ level. (If I had practiced more, I'm certain that I could have gotten it even higher than that). No need for a wrist snap or a wrist snap "feel" for that one either.

Obviously, "wrist snap" means something different to me and most of my students and colleagues than it does to you. With my vast experience teaching tennis, teaching "wrist snap" does more harm than good for MOST students of the game.
.

 

[Pandora Mikado]

I think what pros and coaches call snap is really nothing more than what you see at around 0:12 in that Raonic video where the RACQUET snaps down on the ball. So it is a racquet snap rather than a wrist snap. I have been taking coaching from a chap who coaches high performance juniors but whose advice is surprisingly old school. Whether it's groundies or serve, he never wants me to hold the racquet so loose that it nearly drops off and rather recommends not letting the racquet shake too much during the contact zone. And at the same time, it has to still be loose enough that the slight snap happens - on its own and without an active intervention on my part - just before the racquet comes down on the ball.

Now this is just HIS view so take it for what it is but that slight snap is what gives the ball spin on serves (and leads to a lot of bounce as well). Same deal on the forehand too. No active flex of the wrist. But it happens anyway when the racquet passes from takeback to contact. In both shots - serve and forehand - the racquet is facing one way during takeback/racquet drop and another at contact. That movement is enough and your grip needs only to be loose enough to not stop that from happening. Before this, I have tried a really loose grip and it only leads to inconsistency. At least for me, there never was a point where it got to me being able to somehow hold it really loose and still maintain consistent form.

“Whether it's groundies or serve, he never wants me to hold the racquet so loose that it nearly drops off and rather recommends not letting the racquet shake too much during the contact zone.”

This loosy-goosy grip is one of the most confusing things I’ve seen out there At point of contact if your grip is not firmly on the paddle of the handle it’s a disaster Many 3.5+ players if you ask to query their grip on the forward swing there is a bit of space actually, they are in fact squeezing with the outside of their fingers so not only loss of energy transfer at point the contact, but directional control is compromised also

I only reccomend relaxed wrist after the player has learned how to hit through the ball, otherwise it’s quite frustrating for the player Many 1H have perfectly fine strokes with a firm grip throughout the stroke Many old school players do perfectly well with a firm grip, even staying with continental

First learn to hit through the ball, transferring your energy into it, then fool around with wrist all you want

 

[Dolgopolov85]

“Whether it's groundies or serve, he never wants me to hold the racquet so loose that it nearly drops off and rather recommends not letting the racquet shake too much during the contact zone.”

This loosy-goosy grip is one of the most confusing things I’ve seen out there At point of contact if your grip is not firmly on the paddle of the handle it’s a disaster Many 3.5+ players if you ask to query their grip on the forward swing there is a bit of space actually, they are in fact squeezing with the outside of their fingers so not only loss of energy transfer at point the contact, but directional control is compromised also

I only reccomend relaxed wrist after the player has learned how to hit through the ball, otherwise it’s quite frustrating for the player Many 1H have perfectly fine strokes with a firm grip throughout the stroke Many old school players do perfectly well with a firm grip, even staying with continental

First learn to hit through the ball, transferring your energy into it, then fool around with wrist all you want

Exactly, you actually can't get your body behind the shot very much at all if you hold the racquet too loose. There is nothing very complex ultimately about consistency. Just make sure your racquet isn't shaking and that you don't compromise proper form irrespective of RHS. Some fundamentals remain the same and honestly the average rec doesn't need a Jack Sock forehand.

There's the other extreme though w.r.t relaxed wrist. My playing partner took the coach's advice so seriously he ended up locking the wrist and so would let the face of the racquet remain open through contact. And that's when he had to be told that the wrist only needed to be firm, not locked. It has to still respond to the shoulder and hip movement which is in fact what drives those slight changes of the racquet angle to achieve a good forehand. Now I ensure that once I have got the racquet down from takeback and am going to make contact, it is already facing the way it needs to be and thereafter I only have to get it underneath the ball and pull it up and across. Any last second flexion of the wrist is probably gonna mess up the stroke. In fact I am watching Fed slow motion forehand from last year and there is no change in the angle at which the racquet face approaches and hits the ball once he is into the contact. All the changes happen from takeback to drop. Once the racquet starts climbing up, it stays steady. It has to in order to produce a powerful stroke.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Vid from his PS90 days and from matchplay as opposed to practice warmup where he might intentionally be keeping it real loose.

Forehand slo-mo for the first 30 seconds. Nothing much going on with the wrist once he is into contact zone.