The wrist snap on the serve is not a bad tip

[SystemicAnomaly]

“Whether it's groundies or serve, he never wants me to hold the racquet so loose that it nearly drops off and rather recommends not letting the racquet shake too much during the contact zone.”

This loosy-goosy grip is one of the most confusing things I’ve seen out there At point of contact if your grip is not firmly on the paddle of the handle it’s a disaster ...

"Loosey-goosey" (or even, "loose") is not how I'd characterize it. I refer to a "relaxed" grip instead. "Not so tight that you harm that baby bird in your hand but just loose/firm enough so that it doesn't fly away".

Let's try a 0 to 10 scale. 0 is where the racquet is falling out of your hand (or that small bird is flying away). Max grip strength or a "death grip" is a 10 on this scale. As I recall, grip pressure studies in the (late?) 90s indicated that elite players employed a max grip pressure equivalent to approx 1/2 max grip strength. Most of the time their grip was more relaxed than that. Given this, at most, they were using a grip pressure of 5 or 6. So I'd put their relaxed grip at a 1 or 2.

Perhaps a 3 grip might sound better to you. But I really wouldn't suggest anything higher than that for your grip when relaxed. That relaxed grip pressure should naturally increase as the racquet head is accelerated during the forward swing to contact (or during the upward swing to contact on the serve). On most volleys, the grip firms up just prior to contact. After contact, on all shots, the hand/fingers relax again.

That's my take on it.
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[Dolgopolov85]

"Loosey-goosey" (or even, "loose") is not how I'd characterize it. I refer to a "relaxed" grip instead. "Not so tight that you harm that baby bird in your hand but just loose/firm enough so that it doesn't fly away".

Let's try a 0 to 10 scale. 0 is where the racquet is falling out of your hand (or that small bird is flying away). Max grip strength or a "death grip" is a 10 on this scale. As I recall, grip pressure studies in the (late?) 90s indicated that elite players employed a max grip pressure equivalent to approx 1/2 max grip strength. Most of the time their grip was more relaxed than that. Given this, at most, they were using a grip pressure of 5 or 6. So I'd put their relaxed grip at a 1 or 2.

Perhaps a 3 grip might sound better to you. But I really wouldn't suggest anything higher than that for your grip when relaxed. That relaxed grip pressure should naturally increase as the racquet head is accelerated during the forward swing to contact (or during the upward swing to contact on the serve). On most volleys, the grip firms up just prior to contact. After contact, on all shots, the hand/fingers relax again.

That's my take on it.
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A death grip won't allow the racquet to pull across so yeah not advisable at all. But nor is it productive, I think, to hold it with merely the tips of your fingers or something like that and this is what is often advocated these days.

 

[atp2015]

No, I don't need a serve that "feels like a wrist snap". ~20 years ago, I was serving at a 5.0/5.5 ntrp level (Div II collegiate level). My lefty serve was the best part of my game. I even learned to hit a righty serve at a 4.0+ level. (If I had practiced more, I'm certain that I could have gotten it even higher than that). No need for a wrist snap or a wrist snap "feel" for that one either.

Obviously, "wrist snap" means something different to me and most of my students and colleagues than it does to you. With my vast experience teaching tennis, teaching "wrist snap" does more harm than good for MOST students of the game.
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Agreed.
What's the point of arguing with someone with a 3.5 serve at best...

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

A death grip won't allow the racquet to pull across so yeah not advisable at all. But nor is it productive, I think, to hold it with merely the tips of your fingers or something like that and this is what is often advocated these days.

I hold a badminton racquet in my fingers with a relaxed grip. With tennis, it's more of a relaxed grip -- but more in the palm of my hand than the badminton racquet.
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[Pandora Mikado]

A death grip won't allow the racquet to pull across so yeah not advisable at all. But nor is it productive, I think, to hold it with merely the tips of your fingers or something like that and this is what is often advocated these days.

I hold a badminton racquet in my fingers with a relaxed grip. With tennis, it's more of a relaxed grip -- but more in the palm of my hand than the badminton racquet.
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“Palm of your hand”

That’s the check I always encourage my students to do on the forward swing. Terms like loose, relaxed, death, tight etc are all so vague and subjective

On the flip when the racquet is starting the forward swing I stop the person and ask them to see if their palm is firmly on the paddle what I many times see is it is not - they are quite literally creating a relaxed wrist by squeezing with just the fingers which will result in a poor transfer of energy and an unstable contact.

Relaxed wrist, loose etc very misleading if you aren’t transferring energy into the ball. You can do everything great with legs, positioning, backswing, timing and all that other salad dressing but it’s meaningless if the actual contact is not sound

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

“Palm of your hand”

That’s the check I always encourage my students to do on the forward swing. Terms like loose, relaxed, death, tight etc are all so vague and subjective..,

"Palm of the hand" relative to the way a badminton racquet is held. For the later, the handle lies diagonally across the fingers. For a tennis racquet, it lies more across the palm of the hand -- but the fingers are still doing the gripping or squeezing.

In my experience, I've seen far more players & students gripping too tightly (at the ready) rather than not firmly enough. players who complain of GE, finger pain or wrist pain are often gripping too tightly or too firmly too much of the time. Have come across a very small % who were not gripping firmly enough.
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[Pandora Mikado]

"Palm of the hand" relative to the way a badminton racquet is held. For the later, the handle lies diagonally across the fingers. For a tennis racquet, it lies more across the palm of the hand -- but the fingers are still doing the gripping or squeezing.

In my experience, I've seen far more players & students gripping too tightly (at the ready) rather than not firmly enough. players who complain of GE, finger pain or wrist pain are often gripping too tightly or too firmly too much of the time. Have come across a very small % who were not gripping firmly enough.
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“Have come across a very small % who were not gripping firmly enough.”

That’s 100% true for sure I’m specifically talking about the ones that can play okay, maybe are at 3.5 level or something and it looks nice and neat but they are bleeding energy transfer they are the group that goes on YouTube and online and told to keep loose grip, and it can work as long as staying at 3.5 or beginning 4.0 level, but as soon as it’s a bit higher that flimsy grip doesn’t help much

 

[Curious]

“Have come across a very small % who were not gripping firmly enough.”

That’s 100% true for sure I’m specifically talking about the ones that can play okay, maybe are at 3.5 level or something and it looks nice and neat but they are bleeding energy transfer they are the group that goes on YouTube and online and told to keep loose grip, and it can work as long as staying at 3.5 or beginning 4.0 level, but as soon as it’s a bit higher that flimsy grip doesn’t help much

What’s the best indicator that the grip is firmer than optimal? Also asking @SystemicAnomaly .

 

[Pandora Mikado]

What’s the best indicator that the grip is firmer than optimal? Also asking @SystemicAnomaly .

I’m not an exclusive proponent of modern stokes so there is no firmer than optimal in my book. I’ve seen old school people whack the ball like crazy using firm grips and even continental A lot depends on whether you are a flat hitter or aim for topspin I would say, and your style

If you get good energy transfer into the ball that’s optimal to me

 

[BetaServe]

@SystemicAnomaly do you also hear the wrist snap tip in badminton?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@SystemicAnomaly do you also hear the wrist snap tip in badminton?

Yes, "wrist snap" has also been advocated for badminton for decades (maybe longer). Badminton has long been considered "wristier" than tennis by many players, even elite players. There are some very deliberate uses of the wrist. (But not much for power production). Wrist is used for directional changes of shots. Also employed for very short, quick action for net kill shots (not referring to smashes). The basic net kill shot employs something often referred to as "finger power". It is a squeezing action of the fingers that results in a short, quick action of the wrist. However, an attempt to "snap the wrist" for the basic net kill will likely produce poor results.

In the mid/late 1960s, James Poole PhD, an elite badminton player from the US, wrote a college thesis that debunked the idea of "wrist snap". He maintained that the role of the wrist for the production of power (racket head speed) had been greatly exaggerated by coaches & players. He presented the idea of forearm pronation as a primary generator of power on the smash and other overhead (& forehand) strokes.

This was the first mention of forearm pronation that I had come across. Nearly 2 decades before tennis coaches and scientists appeared to be talking about it. Some time in the 70s, I had come across the mention of forearm supination for power on backhand strokes in badminton.

Some time later, shoulder rotation (ISR & ESR) was also recognized as a source of power in badminton & tennis.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

What’s the best indicator that the grip is firmer than optimal? Also asking @SystemicAnomaly .

Golfer's Elbow (GE) is one sure sign. Even tightness or fatigue of the forearm during play is a sign of sub-optimal (excessive) finger pressure. Aching of the fingers or soreness of the wrist might be other indicators.

Experiment a bit with relaxation and finger pressure to see what seems optimal for you. It might appear a bit different for volleys and serves than for g'strokes. But I am not "aware" of a diff when I am playing.
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[Curious]

Golfer's Elbow (GE) is one sure sign. Even tightness or fatigue of the forearm during play is a sign of sub-optimal (excessive) finger pressure. Aching of the fingers or soreness of the wrist might be other indicators.

Experiment a bit with relaxation and finger pressure to see what seems optimal for you. It might appear a bit different for volleys and serves than for g'strokes. But I am not "aware" of a diff when I am playing.
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Thanks but there’s a misunderstanding. I meant to ask the external signs that someone’s grip is too firm when you watch them playing.

 

[ChaelAZ]

How do you spot a non-loose wrist? As long as the arm is relaxed and grip is not tight, loose wrist should always happen.

Agree. Djo is just a good example becuase you can see the lack of tension when he drops the racquet down and the wrist just drops and is loose enough to really see the whip through the motion. I feel I have a loose motion but isn't as "whippy" as Djo. So yeah, loose grip and active arm helps all that happen.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Thanks but there’s a misunderstanding. I meant to ask the external signs that someone’s grip is too firm when you watch them playing.

Sometimes apparent from watching, sometimes not. In the latter case, the player might complain of pain, tension or fatigue. In some cases, you can see tension in the forearm or hand. They might appear to be muscling the stroke. Or it might appear that they are not getting the fluidity or arm/racket speed that you expect of them.
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[Chas Tennis]

From the Federer video, it looks like the wrist moves from an extended position to an approximately neutral position. In other words, there is significant wrist movement in the flexion direction, from extended to less extended, but the wrist does not break much beyond the neutral position and go into flexion (as some might wrongly interpret the "wrist snap" cue)...Not clear on the power contribution. My interpretation of the graph is that wrist flexion contributes 30% of the power on a serve? But that sounds surprisingly high.

@SystemicAnomaly , do you agree with the above?

When you want to move the wrist over the greatest range the combinations of radial deviation plus extension (racket drop) to ulnar deviation plus flexion get the greatest range of motion.

Video shows for the serve that the wrist is still extended at impact. I look at videos to see this. I would not pick a few words to describe it. I would show videos and add descriptive words. For all technical subjects, this seems to be the most common way to communicate, pictures plus words.

At the Big L position, the wrist extension plus any radial deviation might total around 90 d forearm to racket shaft angle as it appears. At impact probably there is still wri extension of roughly 20 degrees. Soon after impact wrist flexion starts and might end in flexion plus ulnar deviation. ? But look at the videos for follow through details and variations among players, serve types and each serve. I would not call any of it a 'snap'. The arm might rotate 70-90 d from ISR before impact (I wish there was an easy way to measure that ISR rotation angle). Since ISR rotates the entire arm, forward motion of the racket around impact tends to be in the direction of wrist flexion, or could be, I believe. Look at the Raonic wrist close up in #20 for extension at impact.

Don't say there is a 'wrist snap', 'like a whip' or like a 'Tomahawk throw', because then we have to know or study those unknown motions and determine whether or not the 'similarity' is true. If they are similar what do we then have? An instruction? More or less the simple words and analogies tend to stop serious observations.

After impact there are complications: racket head is moving very fast, ISR places the rotating arm at some angle for impact, server wants the arm & racket to slow down,....??...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

It would be interesting to know the high school math and science class grades of folks who believe in wrist snap.

to me, this and any technique description, is an english problem,... not a math/science problem.
it's like explain scientifically "how to walk" to a child

 

[atp2015]

to me, this and any technique description, is an english problem,... not a math/science problem.
it's like explain scientifically "how to walk" to a child

I agree with you 100 pct about describing a technique.
I was referring to the sheer physical limitation of wrist as a power source. It appears like a simple math question tbh without having to even try out with a cast like the one iowaguy posted. I'm glad he found an experiment to prove the theory.