There's only one confirmed GOAT

roysid

Legend
and that's "Nadal on clay". Nobody has ever dominated a surface like him.

There's no "GOAT on grass". Federer/Sampras and Borg are contenders.

Same for hardcourts and the overall GOAT. Though he leads in every respect, his record against Nadal is bad mark.

So only confirmed GOAT as of now is Nadal on clay
 

Magnus

Legend
Nadal is probably the best clay court player in hostory. Shame he has to resort on cheating, trash talking, and rule abusing even on his best surface.
 

roysid

Legend
Fed has a winning record against Nadal on both grass and hardcourts. You've contradicted yourself.
What i meant was Fed leads in titles, GS record and everything except h2h record against chief rival. In the slams, even without clay it's 2-3. And if you include clay, it's 2-8.
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
and that's "Nadal on clay". Nobody has ever dominated a surface like him.

There's no "GOAT on grass". Federer/Sampras and Borg are contenders.

Same for hardcourts and the overall GOAT. Though he leads in every respect, his record against Nadal is bad mark.

So only confirmed GOAT as of now is Nadal on clay

What say you about Borg's dominance on clay during his era? I'll see your Rafa 6 RG's and mention Borg's same six plus the other two he may have won if WTT hadn't interfered!
 
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Deleted member 77403

Guest
No, he is not confirmed clay GOAT.

There are simply too many variables. The competition. The equipment. The courts. The different Eras.

What can be said is that Nadal is the Greatest of HIS Era on Clay. And is ONE of the Greatest Players to play on this surface ever. But you cannot outright call him GOAT, since the conditions and competition he faced is different to what someone like Borg faced.

An all time great....Without a doubt!
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Fed has a winning record against Nadal on both grass and hardcourts. You've contradicted yourself.

Yeah, but unfortunately, not in the slams. And I think it's really tough to be considered the GOAT when you have a 10-18 record against your main rival. Plus, Nadal is 8-2 lifetime vs Federer in grand slams.
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
Yeah, but unfortunately, not in the slams. And I think it's really tough to be considered the GOAT when you have a 10-18 record against your main rival. Plus, Nadal is 8-2 lifetime vs Federer in grand slams.

In 1963, Baby Laver (age 24-25) was 12-33 vs Rosewall. By your logic, I guess Laver should have been disqualified from GOAT discussion at that time, no?
 

tank_job

Banned
Yeah, but unfortunately, not in the slams. And I think it's really tough to be considered the GOAT when you have a 10-18 record against your main rival. Plus, Nadal is 8-2 lifetime vs Federer in grand slams.

Nope, tennis ain't a game where only 2 people in the world play.

Federer is not so hot against Nadal, but Nadal had a lot more to worry about from, you know, the other tennis players that exist in the world, than Federer did, in their prime slam-winning years.

It's about you vs everyone else, not you versus a specific person that makes you great - baffles me how this isn't obvious to some.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
No matter how many titles Rafa gets on clay, there will always be some sort of argument about why someone else is better, based on some bullcr_p hypotheticals, just like how even though Fed's got the most slams, some people seriously think Rafa is better because of similar bullcr_p hypotheticals or trivial stats.

That said, I'd say if Rafa wins another RG, then there will be little to no doubt.
 

DragonBlaze

Hall of Fame
No matter how many titles Rafa gets on clay, there will always be some sort of argument about why someone else is better, based on some bullcr_p hypotheticals, just like how even though Fed's got the most slams, some people seriously think Rafa is better because of similar bullcr_p hypotheticals or trivial stats.

That said, I'd say if Rafa wins another RG, then there will be little to no doubt.

Agreed.

But then I'd also like to mention that say if Fed miraculously wins another Wimbledon I still wouldn't call him outright Grass GOAT. In my eyes he needs to get 8 and even then it's kinda hard since Pete played in much faster conditions.

So atleast I'm consistent lol.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
In 1963, Baby Laver (age 24-25) was 12-33 vs Rosewall. By your logic, I guess Laver should have been disqualified from GOAT discussion at that time, no?

For 1 year, Rosewall was better than Laver. The final h2h between Laver and Rosewall however was 69-53 documented matches.
 

sunof tennis

Professional
What say you about Borg's dominance on clay during his era? I'll see your Rafa 6 RG's and mention Borg's same six plus the other two he may have won if WTT hadn't interfered!

I agree. Saying Nadal is definitely the best on clay without mentioning the possibility of Borg being the GOAT on that surface is like saying Federer is the best of all time on grass without mentioning Sampras.
 
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elpolaco84

Guest
and that's "Nadal on clay". Nobody has ever dominated a surface like him.

There's no "GOAT on grass". Federer/Sampras and Borg are contenders.

Same for hardcourts and the overall GOAT. Though he leads in every respect, his record against Nadal is bad mark.

So only confirmed GOAT as of now is Nadal on clay

Federer: most grass court titles= 11 (achieved in an "era" where grass courts are almost non existent)
 

jdubbs

Hall of Fame
I can confirm that Nadal is the clay court GOAT. No one has dominated for such a long period of time on clay.

No one.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Nadal on clay and Sampras on grass are the closest to certain and agreed on by virtually all.

Hard court GOAT, carpet/indoor, and overall are all closer calls with more contenders.


Amongst the women I would say Evert as clay court GOAT and Navratilova as grass and carpet GOAT are almost indisputable. Hard court and overall GOAT are much harder.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
What say you about Borg's dominance on clay during his era? I'll see your Rafa 6 RG's and mention Borg's same six plus the other two he may have won if WTT hadn't interfered!

He only missed one French due to WTT and maybe he wouldnt have won the 1974 and 1975 French Opens if Connors wasnt banned, since he was so much Connors slave at the time it is hard to see him beating him even on red clay.
 

The-Champ

Legend
and that's "Nadal on clay". Nobody has ever dominated a surface like him.

There's no "GOAT on grass". Federer/Sampras and Borg are contenders.

Same for hardcourts and the overall GOAT. Though he leads in every respect, his record against Nadal is bad mark.

So only confirmed GOAT as of now is Nadal on clay


Someone here in this forum said that Rosewall won the FO 8 times.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Someone here in this forum said that Rosewall won the FO 8 times.

Rosewall won the French Championships as an amateur in 1953, on clay at Roland Garros. As a professional, Rosewall won the French Pro on clay at Roland Garros in 1958, 1960, 1961 and 1962. Then, in 1963, 1964, 1965 and 1966, Rosewall won the French Pro on the Indoor Wood courts at the Stade Coubertin, beating Laver in all 4 of those French Pro finals on indoor wood.

The first open major at the 1968 French Open saw Rosewall beat Laver in the final on the clay-courts of Roland Garros.

All in all, Rosewall won the French Championships/French Open twice (1953 and 1968 ), and the French Pro 8 times (1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965 and 1966), the first 4 French Pros on clay and the next 4 French Pros on indoor wood.
 
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Deleted member 21996

Guest
enthralling.jpg
 

Blinkism

Legend
He only missed one French due to WTT and maybe he wouldnt have won the 1974 and 1975 French Opens if Connors wasnt banned, since he was so much Connors slave at the time it is hard to see him beating him even on red clay.

Didn't he lose to Connors at the US Open final when it was on clay, as well?
 

ttbrowne

Hall of Fame
and that's "Nadal on clay". Nobody has ever dominated a surface like him.

There's no "GOAT on grass". Federer/Sampras and Borg are contenders.

Same for hardcourts and the overall GOAT. Though he leads in every respect, his record against Nadal is bad mark.

So only confirmed GOAT as of now is Nadal on clay

There is one thing that Rafa just can't quite get the hang of...Indoors against Fed. 0-4 against Fed. Plus he's only won ONE SET. I'm not trying to take a thing away from Rafa, but if he's going to be the GOAT...shouldn't he, by your standards, find a way to beat Fed indoors?
 

kiki

Banned
and that's "Nadal on clay". Nobody has ever dominated a surface like him.

There's no "GOAT on grass". Federer/Sampras and Borg are contenders.

Same for hardcourts and the overall GOAT. Though he leads in every respect, his record against Nadal is bad mark.

So only confirmed GOAT as of now is Nadal on clay

Borg won also 6 FO.4 of them in succesion, just like Nadal.If Nadal wins this year RG he will surpass Borg, but not now.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Their record is pretty equal at RG although even there, Rafa had a longer winning streak before his first loss. On clay in general though (not just RG), Rafa's stats are already better than Borg's.
 

kiki

Banned
Their record is pretty equal at RG although even there, Rafa had a longer winning streak before his first loss. On clay in general though (not just RG), Rafa's stats are already better than Borg's.

Still short of Ken Rosewall´s 8 clay majors.

Borg played in far more surfaces than Nadal.He played much much less tournaments on clay.He even skipped some of them to make WTT money.facts are facts.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I was speaking strictly on clay of course. Borg was an amazing indoor player which Nadal isn't as we all know but if we isolate the clay stats Nadal is better. (And Borg agrees BTW)
 

kiki

Banned
I was speaking strictly on clay of course. Borg was an amazing indoor player which Nadal isn't as we all know but if we isolate the clay stats Nadal is better. (And Borg agrees BTW)

I am not denying Nadal has won more different cc titles than Borg.In fact, there were far less CC events during Borg´s prime, as much of the events were indoors.Borg also happened to play far less tournaments ( no matter what turf) and one of the reasons he retired was that he still wanted to play even less...

exhibitions, because of the inmense popularity of tennis during the Golden Era fulfilled many playing weeks in Bjorn´s agenda.other times.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Still short of Ken Rosewall´s 8 clay majors.

Borg played in far more surfaces than Nadal.He played much much less tournaments on clay.He even skipped some of them to make WTT money.facts are facts.

Rosewall has 6 clay majors

1. 1953 French Championships
2. 1958 French Pro
3. 1960 French Pro
4. 1961 French Pro
5. 1962 French Pro
6. 1968 French Open
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I am not denying Nadal has won more different cc titles than Borg.In fact, there were far less CC events during Borg´s prime, as much of the events were indoors.Borg also happened to play far less tournaments ( no matter what turf) and one of the reasons he retired was that he still wanted to play even less...

exhibitions, because of the inmense popularity of tennis during the Golden Era fulfilled many playing weeks in Bjorn´s agenda.other times.


Not true at all: there were far more clay events in Borg's time including a lot of American clay AND year round (even USO was played on clay in the 70s).
Borg played in 1973: 13 events on clay
1974: 9
1975: 8
1976: 5
1977: 6
1978: 4
1979: 6
1980: 5
1981: 4
and the only event he played in 1982 was on clay.
He also played clay events multiple times. He played Monte-Carlo 8 times, Bastad 5 times, Rome 4 times, Madrid 4 times but he never had the degree of success Rafa had in any of them. Not that Borg is not a fantastic clay player but his record pales compared to Rafa's.
Rafa's winning % on clay careerwise: 93.1, Borg: 86.3. Big difference.
 

roysid

Legend
Bjorn Borg won 6 FOs all right. But he didn't dominate clay like Nadal.

- Nadal has won 8 straight Monte Carlo. Borg won 3 MC.
- Borg had lost clay matches to Connors including a US Open final.
 
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Deleted member 21996

Guest
Not true at all: there were far more clay events in Borg's time including a lot of American clay AND year round (even USO was played on clay in the 70s).

exageration much?

US Open was played in Har-tru from 1975 to 1977. you make it sound like it was a whole decade, but not surprising sice anything counts to make your crush the greatest human being on earth!
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
It still is noteable Borg didnt win the U.S Open on clay, even green clay, any year from 1975-1977 while the dominant clay courter. If the U.S Open were held on green clay from 2005-2007 Nadal would have likely won atleast 2 of 3, if not all 3. Likewise Evert, the female clay court GOAT, won all 3 French Opens played on green clay from 1975-1977 as expected of her.
 

mattennis

Hall of Fame
Borg usually peaked at the Grand Slam tournaments.

You could see a not so good Borg in some lesser tournaments, but he was a totally different animal, mentally and physically, come Roland Garros, Wimbledon and the US OPEN (and WTF).

He peaked for the greatest events.

Besides, prior to 1977 he lost on clay more (than from 1977 on) and in fact Connors could beat anyone on clay (including Borg, Orantes, Vilas,...) in those years (1974, 75, 76 ).

Nadal is unique in the way he has dominated all clay events, year after year, since he was 18 (Borg did it more since he was around 21, winning almost all his clay matches )

They both are the two best clay players of the Open Era by far.

Overall Borg was slightly greater (for me) but that is a subjective opinion because in reality they are from different eras.
 

kiki

Banned
Not true at all: there were far more clay events in Borg's time including a lot of American clay AND year round (even USO was played on clay in the 70s).
Borg played in 1973: 13 events on clay
1974: 9
1975: 8
1976: 5
1977: 6
1978: 4
1979: 6
1980: 5
1981: 4
and the only event he played in 1982 was on clay.
He also played clay events multiple times. He played Monte-Carlo 8 times, Bastad 5 times, Rome 4 times, Madrid 4 times but he never had the degree of success Rafa had in any of them. Not that Borg is not a fantastic clay player but his record pales compared to Rafa's.
Rafa's winning % on clay careerwise: 93.1, Borg: 86.3. Big difference.

Peak Borg is 1978-1981.If you add up your list´s nº of events played it is 19¡¡¡ that is possibly what Nadal plays in one single year.Not to take anything away from Nadal; Borg just played less and less on clay as he got better and better.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Borg was a very good player in 1974-1976, but Connors was the best player, with Newcombe and Ashe having their moments in that period as well. Connors played on the Riordan tour for most of that period rather than the more demanding WCT tour like Borg, Newcombe and Ashe. Borg went up another level from 1977 onwards. His 1977 is very good, but he didn't have the resume or results of Vilas that year, as he missed the French Open to play WTT and got a shoulder injury at the US Open and had to retire against Stockton, while Vilas won both those tournaments and had a dominant schedule in the second half of the year. 1978 was Borg and Connors neck and neck. 1979 then saw Borg pull well out in front, and that's where he stayed until after 1981 Wimbledon when McEnroe overtook him.
 
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kiki

Banned
Borg was a very good player in 1974-1976, but Connors was the best player, with Newcombe and Ashe having their moments in that period as well. Connors played on the Riordan tour for most of that period rather than the more demanding WCT tour like Borg, Newcombe and Ashe. Borg went up another level from 1977 onwards. His 1977 is very good, but he didn't have the resume or results of Vilas that year, as he missed the French Open to play WTT and got a shoulder injury at the US Open and had to retire against Stockton, while Vilas won both those tournaments and had a dominant schedule in the second half of the year. 1978 was Borg and Connors neck and neck. 1979 then saw Borg pull well out in front, and that's where he stayed until after 1981 Wimbledon when McEnroe overtook him.

In 1979/1980 no doubt Borg was the men´s best player.But it was so close in 79 with Mac winning the US Open and WCT Finals ( beating Borg) that we had to wait till Borg´s win at the Masters ( held in Jan 1980) and specially his semifinal win over Mac to decide who was nº 1.
 

CCNM

Hall of Fame
and that's "Nadal on clay". Nobody has ever dominated a surface like him.

There's no "GOAT on grass". Federer/Sampras and Borg are contenders.

Same for hardcourts and the overall GOAT. Though he leads in every respect, his record against Nadal is bad mark.

So only confirmed GOAT as of now is Nadal on clay
I'll agree with these parts.
 
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NadalAgassi

Guest
Borg was a very good player in 1974-1976, but Connors was the best player, with Newcombe and Ashe having their moments in that period as well. Connors played on the Riordan tour for most of that period rather than the more demanding WCT tour like Borg, Newcombe and Ashe. Borg went up another level from 1977 onwards. His 1977 is very good, but he didn't have the resume or results of Vilas that year, as he missed the French Open to play WTT and got a shoulder injury at the US Open and had to retire against Stockton, while Vilas won both those tournaments and had a dominant schedule in the second half of the year. 1978 was Borg and Connors neck and neck. 1979 then saw Borg pull well out in front, and that's where he stayed until after 1981 Wimbledon when McEnroe overtook him.

Connors was definitely the best player in 1974 and 1976. Not sure on 1975, many felt Ashe was. 1977 was really Borg or Connors, and from 1978 to 1980 it was easily Borg.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Connors was definitely the best player in 1974 and 1976. Not sure on 1975, many felt Ashe was. 1977 was really Borg or Connors, and from 1978 to 1980 it was easily Borg.

1975 was either Connors (3 major finals and 9 titles overall) or Ashe (Wimbledon and WCT Dallas titles, and 8 titles overall. Yeah, probably Ashe in 1975, as Connors losing 3 major finals was disappointing for him. 1977 was clearly Vilas, with 16 tournament wins including 2 majors, which also include record winning streaks that still exist today. 1978 was either Borg (French Open and Wimbledon, and 9 titles overall) or Connors (January 1978 Masters, US Open, and 11 titles overall).
 
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