Thiem rejects plan to help lower ranked players

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I am supporting Thiem. The lower ranked players chose this life over being an accountant, a singer, a stripper, doctor, soccer player, engineer, etc..
They are not his responsibility. Jeez, the guy doesn't have any kids yet.
Are elite entertainers and GOATS now supposed to help all the less fortunate who want get in their business?
wow, this sounds rhetorical now.

Playing in a professional sport is not going to workout for everyone no matter your dreams. Some make it. Some don't.
That's some deep stuff I know. Like the chicken crossing the road to get the egg.
 
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Sure. But I don't think Thiem is talking about how their's don't match his. It much simpler than that. Perfect example, in the post above this one.

Whether Thiem is impressed with the professionalism of any particular player is besides the point. You need a certain number of players to have the tour and from what I understand there is a subgroup of those that barely cover expenses. I suppose the other side would be its doesn’t matter because once this shakes out and tennis is back and running a new group of barely scrapping by will fill the void.

The point about no audit so to speak and that some players receiving assistance could be making decent money elsewhere seems more theoretical than a practical concern. I feel like if most top players ( and other tennis stakeholders) are on board then just do it for the team, Thiem. The money being asked of Thiem is so trivial in light of his earnings that it’s probably exceeded in value by the reputational damage of declining not to mention the dirty looks in the locker room.
 
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I feel like if most top players are on board then just do it for the team, Thiem.

"Just do it" is not a good enough reason for spending a huge amount of money. He may have many other priorities/obligations in his life that take priority over this "Just do it team". I know I would never spend a big amount of money just because all my other family members did for a just cause. So why all the flak if Thiem does not want to do it for the "team"??

Each to his own on this topic is my point of view. Thiem would have been the bad guy just for saying 'No' anyways.
 
"Just do it" is not a good enough reason for spending a huge amount of money. He may have many other priorities/obligations in his life that take priority over this "Just do it team". I know I would never spend a big amount of money just because all my other family members did for a just cause. So why all the flak if Thiem does not want to do it for the "team"??

Each to his own on this topic is my point of view. Thiem would have been the bad guy just for saying 'No' anyways.

In earlier posts I explained reasons for doing it including the one you mischaracterized above as “just do it” (going along with a group you are part of even if you don’t agree with it’s decision).

I disagree that asking $30,000 from top 5 players is “huge.” Their respective accountants would characterize it as closer to (if not actually) immaterial, not huge. Thiem’s prize money from the very abbreviated 2020 season is reported at ATP site as approx. $1.7 million. For top players, off court earnings substantially exceed on court.
 
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You said his argument was that he had better causes ... and now you are saying you were wrong to say that as he just wants to keep his hard earned money ... and hence that I was right.

Many thanks!

Does Thiem owe you an exact explanation of his argument so that its "clear" to you??

Which part of "its his hard earned money" do you not understand?? And why do you think Thiem should make his argument clear cut so that you can sleep better at night??
 
Agree or not, I explained in other posts various reasons for doing it including the one you cherry picked above (going along with a group you are part of even if you don’t agree with it’s decision).

I disagree that asking $30,000 from top 5 players is “huge.” Their respective accountants would characterize it as closer to (if not actually) immaterial, not huge. Thiem’s prize money from the very abbreviated 2020 season is reported at ATP site as approx. $1.7 million. For top players, off court earnings substantially exceed on court.

Thiem feels $30,000 is better spent somewhere else. His choice. I don't see any problem with that.

Are you his personal accountant to see where all that $1.7 million is being spent? 30,000 could be a huge amount if he supporting many other causes. You are not the judge of that.
 
Does Thiem owe you an exact explanation of his argument so that its "clear" to you??

Which part of "its his hard earned money" do you not understand?? And why do you think Thiem should make his argument clear cut so that you can sleep better at night??
When there are 99 more players that have np with giving their hard earned money and only one against that one should probably ask himself is he doing the right thing. Coz these other 99 did not fall from the sky and not so easy to be better smarter and moraly superior then all of them.
 
When there are 99 more players that have np with giving their hard earned money and only one against that one should probably ask himself is he doing the right thing. Coz these other 99 did not fall from the sky and not so easy to be better smarter and moraly superior then all of them.

Whether the other 99 came out of the water or ate a lot of dust has nothing do with one person chosing where he wishes to spend his money. It may be smart and morally superior in one person's eye and it may be not in another person's eye. Whatever it may be, I fully respect Thiem's decision. I don't need an explanation from Thiem for his decision as well.

Funny, I didnt read in the rule book that you will be deemed morally superior if you join the popular group and not if you don't.
 
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Thiem's attitude is the correct one, but there is nothing wrong with the tours devising a scheme to help out lower ranked players in this crisis.

They've just chosen the wrong model.

Guy already gives like half his income to Austria. Now people want to him to give more? Shameful.
 
Whether the other 99 came out of the water or ate a lot of dust has nothing do with one person chosing where he wishes to spend his money. It may be smart and morally superior in one person's and it may be not in another person's eye. Whatever it may be, I fully respect Thiem's decision. I don't need an explanation from Thiem for his decision as well.
Its not one persons opinion against the other its 99 vs 1 .
You do know its called the tour dont you.
So personal chosing is not without consequences .
 
Its not one persons opinion against the other its 99 vs 1 .
You do know its called the tour dont you.
So personal chosing is not without consequences .

Even if its 10,000 vs 1, I fully stand by the 1 for choosing not to. Nothing more there.

I know its the tour, but do you know that its "his" money??? There are no consequences, just criticism based on one persons 'opinion'. We all live with that on a daily basis. Can't please all of them.

So if my employer makes money from 100 employees, am I obligated to help the other 99?? Please get lost if you think yes.
 
This plan was for VOLUNTARY DONATIONS with a suggested GIFT GUIDE based on RANKING.

Thiem never had to give anything if he chose not to, and his complaint is not very interesting.

The Tour's job is to collect and distribute the gifted monies collected.
 
Thiem decided NOT TO VOLUNTARILY GIFT based on his PERSONAL OPINION on a specific matter. I actually appreciate his point of view and his honesty.

The Tour can still collect the gifted monies from the others and then distribute it. No harm done.
 
Even if its 10,000 vs 1, I fully stand by the 1 for choosing not to. Nothing more there.

I know its the tour, but do you know that its "his" money??? There are no consequences, just criticism based on one persons 'opinion'. We all live with that on a daily basis. Can't please all of them.

So if my employer makes money from 100 employees, am I obligated to help the other 99?? Please get lost if you think yes.
If everyone does it and if much better players do it then it should be normal.
Then maybe think twice how you call people who pay money in your academy.
How does he call them btw when top 300 guys are unprofessional by his standards.
And most of his clients wont live to see couple of atp points.
How does he call them?
 
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"Voluntary Donations" "Gift Guide"... This is absurd.

We need Meritocracy. Not Socialism.

Meritocracy​
Meritocracy (merit, from Latin mereō, and -cracy, from Ancient Greek κράτος kratos 'strength, power')​
is a political system in which economic goods and/or political power are vested in individual people on the basis of talent, effort, and achievement, rather than wealth or social class.​
Advancement in such a system is based on performance, as measured through examination or demonstrated achievement. Although the concept of meritocracy has existed for centuries, the term itself was coined in 1958 by the sociologist Michael Dunlop Young in his satirical essay The Rise of the Meritocracy.​
It has its place but its not a good way of life by any mean.
It doesnt offer equality of opportunity does it.
It needs to go beyond that or it will collaps same as socialism.
Its very simple lower players need to respect higher players and strive to be like them and higher players need to freely help lower players or at least not abuse the power.
 
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The money being asked of Thiem is so trivial in light of his earnings that it’s probably exceeded in value by the reputational damage of declining not to mention the dirty looks in the locker room.
Top professional sports players don't care about dirty looks in locker rooms. This is a career. Not one player started playing professionally thinking their earnings will go to lower ranked players. Doesn't happen in any organized individual sport I know of, why tennis?
He works and pays his taxes and saving for any family he may have later on. That is his responsibility, period.
Billionaires on the other hand should be chipping in.
This doesn't happen in Golf , Boxing, MMA, or bowling that I know of where less talented players want to the top players to fund their expenses.
 
Top professional sports players don't care about dirty looks in locker rooms. This is a career. Not one player started playing professionally thinking their earnings will go to lower ranked players. Doesn't happen in any organized individual sport I know of, why tennis?
He works and pays his taxes and saving for any family he may have later on. That is his responsibility, period.
Billionaires on the other hand should be chipping in.
This doesn't happen in Golf , Boxing, MMA, or bowling that I know of where less talented players want to the top players to fund their expenses.
Then why do fed novak and nadal tip toe on everything they have to say to other players or public.
 
All players in his academy are professional btw even tho most of them will not get a single atp point.

Its really hard to get an atp point now (if its your first). They changed it a few years ago. More proof the people in charge of the tour are incompetent
 
It has its place but its not a good way of life by any mean.
It doesnt offer equality of opportunity does it.
It needs to go beyond that or it will collaps same as socialism.

How about $100,000 to the ATP Top 1000. That will at least cover their travel expenses.
That will cost the ATP $100 million...
 
How about $100,000 to the ATP Top 1000. That will at least cover their travel expenses.
That will cost the ATP $100 million...

How about these guys show up at a club and make $200 an hour doing clinics
 
How about these guys show up at a club and make $200 an hour doing clinics
in whole eastern europe where most itf guys come from top 200 guy can make 15 dollars per hour lol. And right now not even that its all closed lol. So grocery shops it is.Such an elite sport hehe.
That should be new atp slogan practice 10k hours and pay thousands of dollars to work in grocery shop .
 
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in whole eastern europe where most itf guys come from top 200 guy can make 15 dollars per hour lol. And right now not even that its all closed lol. So grocery shops it is.Such an elite sport hehe.
That should be new atp slogan practice 10k hours and pay thousands of dollars to work in grocery shop .

Fed alone gets $300 million for advertising those ugly Uniqlo outfits on ATP courts... Nike, Adidas, are paying millions for clothing and shoes sponsorships.
Let the ATP collect 10% of sponsorships and distribute it to top 1000.
This can be easily solved if the ATP is really interested in doing anything about it.
 
Yours is an unworkable plan. All sponsorships are commercial-in-confidence.

We are talking about organising a gift here. This is both simple and workable.

Fed alone gets $300 million for advertising those ugly Uniqlo outfits on ATP courts... Nike, Adidas, are paying millions for clothing and shoes sponsorships.
Let the ATP collect 10% of sponsorships and distribute it to top 1000.
This can be easily solved if the ATP is really interested in doing anything about it.
 
Yours is an unworkable plan. All sponsorships are commercial-in-confidence.

We are talking about organising a gift here. This is both simple and workable.

The ATP controls what players wear on the tournament courts.
Can very easily stipulate that 10% of sponsorships be distributed to ATP 1000... Players are also free not to participate. But cannot wear their Nike shirts on court.

But we do not need any of this "Voluntary Donations" "Gifting guidance" gibberish. That is just embarrassing.
Players are already free to do that without the ATP organization suggesting that they do it.
The ATP should either present a plan of distribution. Or not.
:rolleyes:

aEk9OE3.png
 
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As usual, you are wrong. The ATP cannot demand access to private contractual arrangements.

The ATP controls what players ADVERTISE on their shirts...

When has reliance on "Voluntary Donations" ever worked in such a pro sports scenario attempting to redress income disparity?
Where is the link to this silly plan of "Voluntary Donations" and "Gifting guidance"?
Will these player donations and gifting be public record?
:rolleyes:
 
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100% with Thiem here. I think people forgot that the world is a jungle, he is not freaking obliged to do anything. If you have a problem it's YOUR problem, not Thiem's.

Whoever has a problem with Thiem should pay up themselves.
Spoken like a true vapid libertarian

The tour isn’t obligated to let him play if he can’t be a responsible member
 
I am still not sure why many think Thiem is obligated to say where he is spending all his money. LOL
As if it's any of their business how he spends his money? Safin blew millions every year on fast cars and whores and that's perfectly fine for most people here. But Thiem speaking his mind gets him pilloried. I think more of Thiem than I did before. And again, almost nobody here has any clue what he actually said in German because they don't speak or understand the language. I do, and he said nothing remotely upsetting.
 
I'm not defending the current plan. I'm just arguing that your alternative is unworkable.

The ATP controls what players ADVERTISE on their shirts...

When has reliance "Voluntary Donations" ever worked in such a pro sports scenario trying to redress income disparity?
Where is the link to this silly plan of "Voluntary Donations" and "Gifting guidance"?
Will these player donations and gifting be public record?
:rolleyes:
 
So are Thiem's remarks accurately quoted here and you're not upset, or are they inaccurately quoted and that's why you're not upset?

As if it's any of their business how he spends his money? Safin blew millions every year on fast cars and whores and that's perfectly fine for most people here. But Thiem speaking his mind gets him pilloried. I think more of Thiem than I did before. And again, almost nobody here has any clue what he actually said in German because they don't speak or understand the language. I do, and he said nothing remotely upsetting.
 
As if it's any of their business how he spends his money? Safin blew millions every year on fast cars and whores and that's perfectly fine for most people here. But Thiem speaking his mind gets him pilloried. I think more of Thiem than I did before. And again, almost nobody here has any clue what he actually said in German because they don't speak or understand the language. I do, and he said nothing remotely upsetting.
I speak german and it was exactly the same as translated. Zverev said they made a whatsup group in which there was all top 50 players and they were all looking how to help low ranked players. Thiem was inly one that didnt agree.Everything else is exact the same so dont lie.
He can have his opinion and refuse to pay no big deal. But once he put his opinion in public i think we have the right to judge it same way he judged those players.
 
I'm not defending the current plan. I'm just arguing that your alternative is unworkable.

And what is your proposal? By what mechanism do you propose taking away earnings from an individual player's pocket to subsidize the ATP 700 that are not good enough to make a profit?
 
Also Domic said he didnt want to make any gifts to lower ranked players since he didnt get any gifts.
Now austrian tennis federation sponsors quite a few players who are below 500 itf juniors . So imagine how much money he got .
Novak got nothing 0 from serbia.
I can put at least 10 players like Novak here.
So Dominic you are wrong again you did get a lot of gifts others didnt get.
 
Dominic Thiem may not care, but most tennis professionals lose money playing the game

By Cody Atkinson
Posted 10h ago, updated 5h ago


As the coronavirus pandemic continues to have a global impact, a battle is taking place inside one of the world's major sports.

On one side of the net stands the current men's world number one tennis player and ATP Player Council president Novak Djokovic, who is lobbying for a proposed fighting fund to help the lower-ranked professionals on tour keep their heads above water.

"The majority of the players who are ranked between 200, 250 in the world and the 700th or 1,000th [ranked player] do not have (national) federation support, do not have sponsors," Djokovic said.

"They are completely independent and left alone."


Djokovic and other top players, such as Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer, theorise that without an active lower level the elite base of men's tennis will suffer over time.

Opposed to Djokovic and his illustrious colleagues is men's world number three and rugged individualist, Dominic Thiem, who believes that any player struggling to make a living only has themselves to blame.

"There are many, many players who don't put the sport above everything else and don't live in a professional manner," Thiem told Austrian newspaper Krone.


Unlike many professional sports, tennis players essentially operate as independent contractors. There is no bargained minimum wage and no one to pick up the critical expenses required for day-to-day survival.

Screenshot-20200430-173759-Firefox.jpg


Time off the court is money out of their pockets. Injured tennis players often try to rush back from their ailments quickly to make sure they keep the cash coming.

With the sporting world largely in lockdown because of coronavirus, no elite players are hitting the court right now. Within the lower ranks, players are dipping below the breadline.

In 2014, the International Tennis Federation commissioned a study that suggested the average player cost for a tennis professional ranked between 101 and 250 in the world (without support staff and taxes) for a single season was $71,371.

About 95 per cent of all professional tennis players surveyed at this time said their prize money did not cover their costs.

A more inclusive look suggested about $250,000 is required to sustain an average-level player and support staff on tour for a year.

This means around the top 200 players on the ATP and WTA Tours do enough to support themselves adequately each year, and another 100 or so can scrape by through taking shortcuts and living cheaply.

Considering there are approximately 3,500 professional players on both the male and female sides, it means most players lose money while playing tennis.

Aussie O'Connell grinding out a living
A perfect case study is Australian journeyman Chris O'Connell.

During his tennis career, O'Connell has scrapped to keep his dream alive — selling clothes, washing boats and dodging border controls. It finally paid off last year.

No player contested or won more professional matches than O'Connell did in 2019, racking up 82 victories across the world.

Screenshot-20200430-174011-Firefox.jpg


According to O'Connell, he spent $90,000 on tour travelling as cheaply as he could. The 82 wins across the year blasted him up the rankings to number 114 in the world, earning him about $106,027 in prizemoney.

That gave O'Connell a profit of about $16,000.

O'Connell was able to win about as much prize money as the 227th-highest earning golfer on the US PGA Tour, a figure around the same amount of money that the 670th highest-paid AFL player takes home.

Djokovic and Thiem both earned in excess of 100 times what O'Connell was able to grind out.

12198376-3x2-xlarge.jpg

Chris O'Connell has lived a journeyman's existence on the ATP Tour.(AAP: Dan Himbrechts)

O'Connell's success on the smaller stage in 2019, however, has meant that he has been able to earn more money on tour already this year than last, despite not having won an ATP Tour match this season.

This is largely due to his lucrative first-round loss at the Australian Open.

Grand Slam tournament appearances are the financial lifeline of all tennis players, where they earn the big bucks. Last year, Australian Priscilla Hon won around $485,000 playing singles on the WTA Tour, contesting tournaments in locations such as 's-Hertogenbosch and Hiroshima.

Of that $485,000, about $350,000 came from the Grand Slam tournaments, where she only won a single main-draw match.

Hon earned more from losing in the second round of qualifying at Wimbledon last year than she did at any non-Grand Slam event.

For players stuck on the fringes of qualifying for Grand Slam tournaments (with a ranking around 220 in the world), they are forced to travel to far-flung places where they likely lose money and potentially earn precious ranking points to get to the big stage.

Ultimately, both Djokovic and Thiem have valid points to some degree.

For Djokovic, ensuring the growth of the game is for the greater good, as is minimising the real financial hurt some of his colleagues are feeling right now.

For Thiem, the prospect of taking away money he rightfully won might be painful and strikes at the heart of natural justice.

The Austrian, however, must recognise that less successful players are not necessarily unprofessional, rather they are perhaps less talented to begin with, or at least not as talented right now.

Maybe the best answer is that the system has been broken for a long time and the extended shutdown of almost all global sport (Belarussian football excluded) could be an ideal opportunity to fix broken and outdated financial models across all sports.
Is that a pro stock code on the inside of the throat on his blade? Interesting color and text.
 
It’s Thiem’s opinion, I believe he has the right to do what he wants with his money. Simple as that.
 
You are the one trying to rob the earnings of players by taxing their sponsorship money at 10%.

Governor Newsom salutes you!
:rolleyes:
I only saw the thread title and I am not even aware that there is a "problem" to be solved here.

I am perfectly fine with the free marketplace determining the value of a player. You see, unlike yourself, I believe in a Meritocracy. If a #300 ranked player is not breaking even he has the option of leaving The Tour and earning big bucks as a teaching pro.

Other ATP players with more talent should not be "donating" to him.

Let me know when you start to appreciate and support Meritocratic principles.

 
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100% with Thiem here. I think people forgot that the world is a jungle, he is not freaking obliged to do anything. If you have a problem it's YOUR problem, not Thiem's.

Whoever has a problem with Thiem should pay up themselves.

There’s lots to consider on both sides, but it’s always funny how righteous and virtuous people are on Twitter/social media/message boards, but in real life are all the same and will take care of themselves or those close to them above all else BUT expect OTHERS not to.
 
You believe in a 10% tax on players' sponsorship earnings. That's what you wrote. Do you care to retract your statements?

:rolleyes:
I only saw the thread title and I am not even aware that there is a "problem" to be solved here.

I am perfectly fine with the free marketplace determining the value of a player. You see, unlike yourself, I believe in a Meritocracy. If a #300 ranked player is not breaking even he has the option of leaving The Tour and earning big bucks as a teaching pro.

Other ATP players with more talent should not be "donating" to him.

Let me know when you start to appreciate and support Meritocratic principles.

 
You believe in a 10% tax on players' sponsorship earnings. That's what you wrote. Do you care to retract your statements?

Are you going to offer an actual solution or just continue to whine as usual, while offering nothing productive?
:unsure:
My proposal (if there is even an income inequality and injustice issue to be remedied here) did not involve any tax on players. All players are free to opt out and not advertise themselves on ATP courts.
 
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