Things pros do and amateurs shouldn't

[ktncnttl]

My list:
1. Lob -- for some reasons pros don't lob much. However lobs can be very effective at the amateur level. Heck you could probably win 90% of amateurs if you do nothing but lob deep consistently. It would be hard for you to find someone willing to play with you though.

2. Serving big -- Amateurs should serve with getting the ball in the box as the number 1 priority. Trying to win with your serve will only give you lots of DFs.

3. Slice backhand -- Most pros only do that as a last resort, however a slice backhand could be more effective than a topspin drive at the amateur level.

4. Overhead -- All pros can nail an overhand on the run anywhere in the court. Amateurs should only try that inside the service box and not on the run.

5. Attacking high forehand sitters -- Thats one of those shots that separates the pros from the amateurs (another one would be the overhead.) Pros never miss it and amateurs never could make it.

6. Going for winners -- Lets face it pros win by hitting winners and amateurs lose by committing unforced errors.

7. Western forehand -- Amateurs should benefit more by hitting through the ball instead of trying to hit excessive topspin.

 

[Noelle]

Um, should I say it? Never say "never"?

 

[ktncnttl]

Um, should I say it? Never say "never"?

but you said the 'N' word, twice!! Shame on you.

 

[Fxanimator1]

Why would you NOT use these shots? Your goal in practice is to work these shots until you own them. Do you think Federer popped out of the womb with his shot making abilty. I don't feel people should be limiting their game in this way, what fun would tennis be if you never wanted to hone you game?

 

[yvp]

Agree with fx

 

[spinbalz]

My list:

6. Going for winners -- Lets face it pros win by hitting winners and amateurs lose by committing unforced errors.

Sorry, but it is not true, even at the pro level the statistics prove that it is a game of errors <forced & unforced>, because around 85% of the points end with an error instead of a winner, of course it also depends of the surface and the playing styles of the players but 85% of errors is the overall statistic.

 

[Surecatch]

Interesting ideas. These are the things I think about, especially since I have a pesky playing partner who I should be destroying. My biggest problem with him is I weigh 195 and he weighs 155 and I am 39 and he is 25. I have better tennis skills than he but I need to be crafty at times. Good news is that I haven't lost a set to him yet.

 

[joe sch]

#1 - Jumping groundstrokes
This should only be a stroke attempted in emergency !
Many hackers think the jumping 2H BH is soo cool looking they want to hit it.
Not a good idea !

 

[joe sch]

Sorry, but it is not true, even at the pro level the statistics prove that it is a game of errors <forced & unforced>, because around 85% of the points end with an error instead of a winner, of course it also depends of the surface and the playing styles of the players but 85% of errors is the overall statistic.

I dont agree with your statement.
When I see match statistics, there are usually lots more winners than unforced errors at the open level. I think this is generally the case in tennis at a level >= 5.0
Prove me wrong !

 

[callitout]

What your talking about depends entirely about level. Even a 4.0 should be comfortable going for winners depending on court position; a 4.5 should be trying to set up forehand and volley winners. A 5.0 should even be hitting some winners off neutral balls (once in a while), to force the opponent to overhit a bit. Serving well should be part of game 4.5 and up. Lobbing and slicing should be used at all levels just not on every shot. Again a 4.5 should be quite comfortable hitting overheads from service line and in.

I do agree that many club players overhit. I noticed that even good pros dont hit agressively from every point on the court, so a lower level player has absolutely no right to. But from an offensive position many players need to put pressure on the opponent to generate errors. This is definately true above 4.0 tennis. Otherwise the club pusher will beat you. Most average 4.0 players can push a ball back in the middle of the court if they dont have to worry that youll attack it.

The jumping shots like safin hits on his backhand to put a ball that would be above his strike zone in his strike zone are basically trick shots to the club player. That is the only shot you mention which is truly for 6.5 7.0 players.

 

[spinbalz]

I dont agree with your statement.
When I see match statistics, there are usually lots more winners than unforced errors at the open level. I think this is generally the case in tennis at a level >= 5.0
Prove me wrong !

You don't have to agree or disagree with a fact, a fact remains a fact despite what someone can think about it. It already have been studied by many specialists in the past and the result remains always close to 85 % of errors.

But I see that you only compare winners to unforced errors, and that is the reason why you misunderstand the 85% statistic, because if you only make the winners / unforced errors ratio, you forget all the points ending by a forced error <parameter that you will never see in the match statistic on TV>.

You ask me to prove you wrong, well I think I've done it by showing that you failed to take in account all the points played during tennis matches <winners + unforced errors + forced errors>, you take in account only a part of the poinst played in tennis matches <winners + unforced errors>, so you can't make a statistic if you don't take in account all the points.

Now prove you are right...


Here is a link if you want 1 more proof that you are wrong :
http://www.tennisserver.com/mortal/mortal_05_02.html

 

[joe sch]

You don't have to agree or disagree with a fact, a fact remains a fact despite what someone can think about it. It already have been studied by many specialists in the past and the result remains always close to 85 % of errors.

But I see that you only compare winners to unforced errors, and that is the reason why you misunderstand the 85% statistic, because if you only make the winners / unforced errors ratio, you forget all the points ending by a forced error <parameter that you will never see in the match statistic on TV>.

You ask me to prove you wrong, well I think I've done it by showing that you failed to take in account all the points played during tennis matches <winners + unforced errors + forced errors>, you take in account only a part of the poinst played in tennis matches <winners + unforced errors>, so you can't make a statistic if you don't take in account all the points.

Now prove you are right...


Here is a link if you want 1 more proof that you are wrong :
http://www.tennisserver.com/mortal/mortal_05_02.html

That article stated "studies have proven ..."
I dont have much faith in this kind of statement and I will still like to see the facts to back it up. I still contend its not true on the ATP tour. Just look at match stats :
winners vs unforced errors

 

[NoBadMojo]

That's a good article Spinbalz..thanks for posting. At advanced levels, forcing shots are usually what determnes wins and losses alot more so than something as black and white as winners and unforced errors. There's really alot more to it than that. At lower levels of play, however, the key is to keep your UE's down..that is why pushers can win alot of matches say up to the 4.5 level.
At a high level, a forcing shot is what causes your opponent to hit a UE..a forcing shot can also set up a next shot which can be a winner, etc etc. I think forcing shots are a very impt element of all the strokes but especially the serve and return of serve because that's what sets the tenor for the point. Example: Sampras hits a forcing shot (a serve) which triggers a short ball which he can easily and routinely put away for a winner. In the stats, it's the wnner which gets recorded, when the reality is it was the forcing shot (the serve) which was the most important shot. often these forcing shots also produce an UE from an opponent rather than a winner..stats can be very misleading and not indicative of the real world.

 

[spinbalz]

That article stated "studies have proven ..."
I dont have much faith in this kind of statement and I will still like to see the facts to back it up. I still contend its not true on the ATP tour. Just look at match stats :
winners vs unforced errors

You still insist with the winners / unforced errors ratio, so it looks like you really fail to understand that their are 3 ways to end a point instead of only 2 ways, these 3 ways are : 1/winner, 2/ unforced errors, 3/ forced errors. You only take in account the ways 1 and 2, so you don't take in account all the points played during one match, so how do you want to make stats if you don't take in account all the points played??? To make it clear, usually during amatch at the pro level, winners + unforced errors = something between 35% to 50% of the points played, then the other 50% to 65% of points are ended by a forced error.

If you fail to understand that simple notions, we are going nowhere, and I can't do anything more to help you sorry, so this post is my last about the 85% subject, and if finally you arrive to understand, then I'll just be happy to have contributed to help your tennis understanding

May I also suggest you to read carefully Nobadmojo's post, I might help you to understand tennis better than you currently seem able to <or should I better say "you currently seem UNABLE to">

 

[@wright]

These rules are better suited to 3.5's and under. I, as well as many other amateurs, can hit the high forehand consistently, as well as hitting winners without a huge amount of UE's. If you can strike the ball with spin, you should be able to do these things once you get to a certain level. For lower level amateurs, I would agree with your points.

 

[joe sch]

You still insist with the winners / unforced errors ratio, so it looks like you really fail to understand that their are 3 ways to end a point instead of only 2 ways, these 3 ways are : 1/winner, 2/ unforced errors, 3/ forced errors. You only take in account the ways 1 and 2, so you don't take in account all the points played during one match, so how do you want to make stats if you don't take in account all the points played??? To make it clear, usually during amatch at the pro level, winners + unforced errors = something between 35% to 50% of the points played, then the other 50% to 65% of points are ended by a forced error.

If you fail to understand that simple notions, we are going nowhere, and I can't do anything more to help you sorry, so this post is my last about the 85% subject, and if finally you arrive to understand, then I'll just be happy to have contributed to help your tennis understanding

May I also suggest you to read carefully Nobadmojo's post, I might help you to understand tennis better than you currently seem able to <or should I better say "you currently seem UNABLE to">

Ok, winners vs errors !

Look at most pro matches and I think you will find winners > errors !

 

[Babblelot]

My biggest problem with him is I weigh 195 and am 39

Hey!, I have similar problems. I'm also 39 but weigh 215+. We should form a M.i.d.w.e.s.t Clydesdale League.

 

[Surecatch]

Hey!, I have similar problems. I'm also 39 but weigh 215+. We should form a M.i.d.w.e.s.t Clydesdale League.

Haha. I'm working on it. In January I was pushing 230 and so I've come a long way but I need to get to 175 optimally for tennis. My league starts in one month and I think I can get to the low 180s by that time if I work hard at the cardio.

 

[Babblelot]

Haha. I'm working on it. In January I was pushing 230 and so I've come a long way but I need to get to 175 optimally for tennis. My league starts in one month and I think I can get to the low 180s by that time if I work hard at the cardio.

Good lucky, buddy!

I got to 230ish and wound up having to get my knee scoped.

 

[GotGame?]

Listen here: If those strategies work on the pro level, they will work double on the club level. If you have the capacity to do it, go for it.

 

[Andy Hewitt]

Be Nadal....

 

[GRANITECHIEF]

I'm am 35, 220, 6'5" and love to hit the jumping pivot airborne FH on the high short ball. I would probably do it on the BH too, but it just isn't intuitive with a one-hander. My nine year old does the "mule kick" backhand on high balls, which is most of em since he's only 4ft tall.

 

[araghava]

I think the main point of this post is completely valid. i.e. If you want to play winning tennis, you need to play within your capabilities. If you can take a mid court ball and crush it for a winner 7 times out of 10, by all means go for it. However if you end up hitting into the net or long 5 times out of 10, you're probably better off hitting a safer shot.

Most of us amateurs don't know our limits. We see the pros play shots with ease and we instintively try to do the same. Pros on the other hand with years of trainining know exactly what they can pull off.

Most points in the pro circuit are won by forced errors. Not outright winners but forced errors. Most points in amateur play are won because of unforced errors.

Ofcourse this assumes that your main goal is winning. Sometimes the thrill of smacking a winner just like Federer did more that compensates for the fact that you butchered the same shot 9 other times.

I'm a 4.5 player who plays SV on every 1st serve. There's this guy who i occasionally play with whose game technically is far inferior to mine. However he drives me nuts because all he can on his backhand is hit dink lobs. If i serve to his backhand, i know i'm going to get a head high floating mid court volley. 5 times out of 10 i'll butcher the shot. However i'm playing for fun. I don't get any pleasure in trying to play a patient backcourt game. So i still serve and volley against him.

 

[0.2RatedPlayer]

racquet spinning. i see a lot of 2.0 players spinning their racquets in their hand before they serve, and even when doing groundstrokes.

 

[GotGame?]

racquet spinning. i see a lot of 2.0 players spinning their racquets in their hand before they serve, and even when doing groundstrokes.

That's another thing, but this thread I believe was on pros' shots/strategies. I find it hilarious when tricks is what players focus on before getting the true mechanics of the strokes down.

 

[Rickson]

Don't hit high forehand sitters? Slice is more effective than topspin? Don't go for big serves? Don't go for winners? Your advice to amateurs is extremely flawed.

 

[FiveO]

Winners, UE's and Forced Errors

Here are some stats for the argument:

US Open 2005 Men's Finals:

Federer

132 total points won
-69 winners including serves
63 total points won via error
-28 won via Agassi's UE's
35 points won via forced error

Agassi

106 total points won
-34 winners including serves
72 points won via error
-37 won via Federer's UE's
35 points won via forced error

Agassi: 34 winners; committed 63 forced/unforced errors. Won 72 points off opponent's errors.

Federer: 69 winners; committed 72 forced/unforced errors. Won 63 points off opponent's errors.

And Fed won solidly.

US Open 2005 Women's Final:

Clijsters

58 total points won
-16 winners including serves
42 total points won via error
-28 won via Pierce's U/E's
14 points won via forced error

Pierce

38 total points won
-7 winners including serves
31 total points won via error
-19 won via Clijster's U/E's
12 points won via forced error

Pierce: 7 winners; committed 42 forced and unforced errors. Won 31 points off opponent's errors.
Clijsters: 16 winners; committed 31 forced and unforced errors. Won 42 points off opponent's errors.
And Clijsters won in a rout.

 

[spinbalz]

Ok, winners vs errors !

Look at most pro matches and I think you will find winners > errors !

More winners than errors??? Only in your dreams!

Now take a look at the stats provided by Five O, in the post above, and then you will clearly see that during the US Open finals the players clearly made a lot more errors overall <forced + unforced> than winners.

During the US Open finals, 388 points have been played, only 126 points ended by winners, and 262 points ended by errors <forced + unforced>, so the % of winners was only 32.5%, and it clearly proves that you are wrong to believe that at the pro level they make more winners than errors

Do I have to add that these match are played by absolute shotmakers who have a way better than average ability to hit winners, but the final result remains MORE ERRORS THAN WINNERS.

And please don't tell that these matches prove nothing because they are only 2 matches, it is true that 2 matches aren't enough to obtain very accurate stats about the pro tennis, but they give you a tendancy, and that tendancy is clearly the opposite to what you believed to be the truth.

Now can you show some good faith, and admit that you were wrong? it shouldn't be too hard, nobody is perfect you know...

 

[Jack the Hack]

Ok, winners vs errors !

Look at most pro matches and I think you will find winners > errors !

To put some credibility to the argument that spinbalz has been making, and to add to the stats that FiveO just posted:

In the recent US Open mens quarterfinal through final matches, a total of 1,843 points were played, with 652 of these points ending in an outright winner. This means that 65% of the points ended in an error, either forced or unforced.

If you consider that the matches from the quarters on were of very high quality, and that the US Open is played on a fast surface (which increases the amount of winners) the percentage of errors is probably low. If you take the stats from all matches played at the US Open, I would guess the error level goes up to 70-75% or more. Then, if you consider the stats on a slower surface like clay (where it is hard to generate outright winners), I would guess that the error percentage may get up the 80-85% that spinbalz quoted.

(Also, aces count as winners in the stats, so the percentage of winners that are hit from groundstrokes or volleys is actually pretty low.)

Don't worry though... many other pro sports deal with errors at a high rate. If you get a hit only a third of the time in baseball, you are considered very good. If you make just half of your shots in basketball, you are considered a great shooter.

 

[spinbalz]

To Five O and Jack the hack : good job, thank you.

 

[FiveO]

First, read Mojo's post again!

Next, a couple more thoughts on what amateurs should/shouldn't do like the pros:

Don't hit with the pro's margins for error. Amateurs should not play their shots near net height nor near the lines as often as many do. It leads to unnecessary errors. In part its due to a lack of recognition of what is truly an offensive situation vs. defense or neutral. Part of it is also due to a lack of recognition of what their targets should be. Learn the general zones in the court which dictate offense, defense and neutral. Learn to recognize where the opponent's shot will bounce on your side of the court. Learn what your rally speed, net clearance and depth is. Don't unnecessarily let a ball drop below the height of the net. And move your targets in off the lines. Pros aim points are more accurate than amateur's. Pros can comfortably hit in a lane a foot or less wide consistently. Amateurs can't. Move your x-court and dtl targets three feet inside the sidelines and baseline and your level will rise. Many amateurs operate without a percentage target and until its pointed out to them, are subconsciously aiming AT the line, placing half of their landing zone out.

Work on second serves. "You're only as good as your second serve." Amateurs don't like to think about that axiom, for obvious reasons, but its true.

Work on your returns. Every pro can return serve. With the exception of the biggest servers, the best pros return serve the best. Devote at least some, if not much more, practice to the return game.

There's much more but improving just these elements will improve almost every amateur's level.

 

[callitout]

First, read Mojo's post again!

Next, a couple more thoughts on what amateurs should/shouldn't do like the pros:

Don't hit with the pro's margins for error. Amateurs should not play their shots near net height nor near the lines as often as many do. It leads to unnecessary errors. In part its due to a lack of recognition of what is truly an offensive situation vs. defense or neutral. Part of it is also due to a lack of recognition of what their targets should be. Learn the general zones in the court which dictate offense, defense and neutral. Learn to recognize where the opponent's shot will bounce on your side of the court. Learn what your rally speed, net clearance and depth is. Don't unnecessarily let a ball drop below the height of the net. And move your targets in off the lines. Pros aim points are more accurate than amateur's. Pros can comfortably hit in a lane a foot or less wide consistently. Amateurs can't. Move your x-court and dtl targets three feet inside the sidelines and baseline and your level will rise. Many amateurs operate without a percentage target and until its pointed out to them, are subconsciously aiming AT the line, placing half of their landing zone out.

Work on second serves. "You're only as good as your second serve." Amateurs don't like to think about that axiom, for obvious reasons, but its true.

Work on your returns. Every pro can return serve. With the exception of the biggest servers, the best pros return serve the best. Devote at least some, if not much more, practice to the return game.

There's much more but just improving just these elements will improve almost every amateur's level.

'

Great points. Height over net provides a good margin and enables you to hit hard even under pressure allowing topsin to bring the ball in; at Bolletieri's they really focus on that. Serve return is absolutely my worst thing, and youre so right that many club matches have first ball unforced errors off serve returns; really more than 1 per set is unacceptable.

 

[DashaandSafin]

racquet spinning. i see a lot of 2.0 players spinning their racquets in their hand before they serve, and even when doing groundstrokes.

....Racquet spinning? Many players racquet spin how does that affect your game? I dont think any "tennis" player below 4.0 deserves to be called an actual "player"

 

[joe sch]

More winners than errors??? Only in your dreams!

Now take a look at the stats provided by Five O, in the post above, and then you will clearly see that during the US Open finals the players clearly made a lot more errors overall <forced + unforced> than winners.

During the US Open finals, 388 points have been played, only 126 points ended by winners, and 262 points ended by errors <forced + unforced>, so the % of winners was only 32.5%, and it clearly proves that you are wrong to believe that at the pro level they make more winners than errors

Do I have to add that these match are played by absolute shotmakers who have a way better than average ability to hit winners, but the final result remains MORE ERRORS THAN WINNERS.

And please don't tell that these matches prove nothing because they are only 2 matches, it is true that 2 matches aren't enough to obtain very accurate stats about the pro tennis, but they give you a tendancy, and that tendancy is clearly the opposite to what you believed to be the truth.

Now can you show some good faith, and admit that you were wrong? it shouldn't be too hard, nobody is perfect you know...

Ok spinbalz, looks like your stats maybe accurate.
I still dont like grouping forced errors with unforced errors , its a fine line sometimes between winner vs forced error.
I will still hold onto my statement that at high level tennis there are more winners than (unforced) errors.

Peace, Joe

 

[spinbalz]

I will still hold onto my statement that at high level tennis there are more winners than (unforced) errors.

Peace, Joe

Nobody contested the more winners than unforced errors statement.

Your original point was to disagree with my more or less 85% of errors stat, and you used as a proof the Winners/unforced errors ratio, that is where standed the flaw in your reasoning leading to your disagreement with the stat I provided, because you failed to realize that in the more or less 85% of errors stat, unforced errors and forced errors are counted.

Pros are Pros because they are skilled players, and unforced errors are obviously supposed to be pretty limited for skilled players.

I just entered in this discussion because the original poster stated that the Pros win by hitting winners, so I felt the need to contradict his inaccurate statement, the truth is that Pros players win by forcing errors & waiting for unforced errors, more than by hitting winners.

Not that important anyway. Peace

 

[timmyboy]

i agree with them, but those rules should only apply for the 4.0- player.

 

[SageOfDeath]

My list:
1. Lob -- for some reasons pros don't lob much. However lobs can be very effective at the amateur level. Heck you could probably win 90% of amateurs if you do nothing but lob deep consistently. It would be hard for you to find someone willing to play with you though.

Contreversial, if amateurs never grow outside of lobbing then they will just be a pusher which is just bait for players that can hit overheads. And what are you talking about pros don't lob much for some reason, for good reason. Hitting a topspin lob is a more offensive lob but takes more time and even though it is more offensive would you dare hit a lob against any pro player? Not only would they end the point they might get hurt in the process. Pros usually hit lobs if someone is at the net.

2. Serving big -- Amateurs should serve with getting the ball in the box as the number 1 priority. Trying to win with your serve will only give you lots of DFs.

True, but more commonly amatuer players hit as hard as they can with their first serve and dink their second. Its like a game of chance where you either get killed by this hard flat serve, or you get a sitter.

3. Slice backhand -- Most pros only do that as a last resort, however a slice backhand could be more effective than a topspin drive at the amateur level.

That's not true, pros hit slice backhands to change the rythym of the game and sometimes hit a german slice, check the sticky of tips and intruction.

4. Overhead -- All pros can nail an overhand on the run anywhere in the court. Amateurs should only try that inside the service box and not on the run.

Maybe I'm wrong but pros don't hit on the run they stop and then hit an overhead.

5. Attacking high forehand sitters -- Thats one of those shots that separates the pros from the amateurs (another one would be the overhead.) Pros never miss it and amateurs never could make it.

I think you're describing someone who can't get the ball in play.

6. Going for winners -- Lets face it pros win by hitting winners and amateurs lose by committing unforced errors.

Again describing someone who can't get the ball in play

7. Western forehand -- Amateurs should benefit more by hitting through the ball instead of trying to hit excessive topspin.

Agree among other reasons not to use one.

I think your guide would be good for someone who can't get the ball in play.

 

[10nisUmp]

Ok, winners vs errors !

Look at most pro matches and I think you will find winners > errors !

Actually, you will find that most matches are decided by errors. For example, look at the Pierce/Dementieva semifinal at this year's Open. These stat's are taken from the U.S. Open website, which gives brief, statistical snapshots of each match.

Total points: 160.
Total Winners, including service winners: 49

So if 111 points were determined by something other than winners, what else can those points be other than some form of error? That is roughly 69% of the total points of that match points. You can crunch similar numbers for any pro match and find results not that dissimilar.

In a book he wrote in the 1950s, Bill Tilden, arguably the greatest male tennis player of the first half of the twentieth century, estimated that over 60% of points, even in top-flite pro matches, were determined by errors.

If you think about it in common sense terms, in just one game, does even the greatest player hit 2-3 clean winners every single game? Certainly this happens in SOME games, but for the majority of points in a match to be won by winners, that means that 2-3 points EVERY SINGLE game be won outright with a winner. No professional is either that good, ever has been that good, or is ever likely to be that good.

 

[Fatmike]

break racquet

 

[matchpoint]

My list:
1. Lob -- for some reasons pros don't lob much. However lobs can be very effective at the amateur level. Heck you could probably win 90% of amateurs if you do nothing but lob deep consistently. It would be hard for you to find someone willing to play with you though.

2. Serving big -- Amateurs should serve with getting the ball in the box as the number 1 priority. Trying to win with your serve will only give you lots of DFs.

3. Slice backhand -- Most pros only do that as a last resort, however a slice backhand could be more effective than a topspin drive at the amateur level.

4. Overhead -- All pros can nail an overhand on the run anywhere in the court. Amateurs should only try that inside the service box and not on the run.

5. Attacking high forehand sitters -- Thats one of those shots that separates the pros from the amateurs (another one would be the overhead.) Pros never miss it and amateurs never could make it.

6. Going for winners -- Lets face it pros win by hitting winners and amateurs lose by committing unforced errors.

7. Western forehand -- Amateurs should benefit more by hitting through the ball instead of trying to hit excessive topspin.

These statements applies only to 2.5 level and below which ktncnttl is probably is.

 

[fishuuuuu]

3. Slice backhand -- Most pros only do that as a last resort, however a slice backhand could be more effective than a topspin drive at the amateur level.

So basically Federer is a nub? A lot of times he has the chance to hit topspin backhands but since he elects to do it slice he can't be a pro!