*THIS* is how you hit a high contact point backhand

T

thomasferrett

Hall of Fame
An Almagro special, here you go;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUM25QdMb6Y#t=6548

Can any good technique analysts explain what is going on here?

The contact point is well above head height, and the swing path looks quite low-to-high, but the ball flies at a low trajectory despite this.

If you make Gasquet hit the same type of backhand (at that height), he will always hit a really loopy ball by contrast.

Also, do you think that a 2hbh can handle balls that bounce that high easier than this? I mean, it is at the point where you almost can't reach that high with two hands...
 
Bummer

thomasferrett said:
An Almagro special, here you go;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUM25QdMb6Y#t=6548

Can any good technique analysts explain what is going on here?

The contact point is well above head height, and the swing path looks quite low-to-high, but the ball flies at a low trajectory despite this.

If you make Gasquet hit the same type of backhand (at that height), he will always hit a really loopy ball by contrast.

Also, do you think that a 2hbh can handle balls that bounce that high easier than this? I mean, it is at the point where you almost can't reach that high with two hands...
Click to expand...
I have tried to see it on an ipad-it says the video is not playable
 
thomasferrett said:
An Almagro special, here you go;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUM25QdMb6Y#t=6548

Can any good technique analysts explain what is going on here?

The contact point is well above head height, and the swing path looks quite low-to-high, but the ball flies at a low trajectory despite this.

If you make Gasquet hit the same type of backhand (at that height), he will always hit a really loopy ball by contrast.

Also, do you think that a 2hbh can handle balls that bounce that high easier than this? I mean, it is at the point where you almost can't reach that high with two hands...
Click to expand...

he may have hit it decently,
but this example is not so successful.
ball is too short, and somewhat paceless, and opponent can quickly offence after that (just imagine Nadal's FH with this ball)
 
the video is block.

hitting a high ball is not difficult at all. Trajectory - there is actually a part of the swing where the forearm releases forward to produce a flatter ball. if the contact is made earlier than that, during the brushing stage, then the trajectory will be loopy.
 
geca said:
the video is block.

hitting a high ball is not difficult at all. Trajectory - there is actually a part of the swing where the forearm releases forward to produce a flatter ball. if the contact is made earlier than that, during the brushing stage, then the trajectory will be loopy.
Click to expand...

:confused::confused::confused::confused: Are you saying you should flick your elbow to control the spin? Are you kidding me?

High backhand, especially with one hand, is a very difficult shot to hit with any pace.

Harry
 
Rozroz said:
he may have hit it decently,
but this example is not so successful.
ball is too short, and somewhat paceless, and opponent can quickly offence after that (just imagine Nadal's FH with this ball)
Click to expand...

OK, but do you think a two-handed backhand would fare better in this situation?

There was actually decent pace on that shot even if it bounced short-ish, and Ferrer could not take the initiative of the point off that backhand, instead Ferrer won the point when Almagro hit a weak inside out forehand.

When we say that Djokovic handles 'high' backhands well, we mean he hits chest and shoulder height backhands well, but when he faces a backhand that genuinely bounces high on him (i.e. well above his head, like the Almagro backhand that I posted), he tends not to even be able to reach it to hit it with two hands - he needs to take a hand off and slice it with one hand. Here is an example of that;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zHdYzBLGY#t=28
 
geca said:
the video is block.

hitting a high ball is not difficult at all. Trajectory - there is actually a part of the swing where the forearm releases forward to produce a flatter ball. if the contact is made earlier than that, during the brushing stage, then the trajectory will be loopy.
Click to expand...

That is a very interesting possibility.

To the guy below you - the elbow does not 'flick', but the forearm supinates throughout the contact point and/or followthrough of a modern one-handed backhand. Watch slow-motion footage of Gasquet/Wawrinka/Almagro and you will see it happen. The 'release' of the forearm refers to this supination. Dimitrov does not do it, as his backhand is somewhat old-school. Technique-wise it is actually more old-school that Federer's backhand though Dimitrov is of the new generation.

If your theory is correct that Almagro hits the ball more in front of him, and thus in the later, flatter part of his swing than Gasquet, who hits the ball closer to him and thus in the earlier, loopier part of the swing, then that would explain why Gasquet's backhand almost always tends to be a much loopier shot that Almagro's backhand which is more forceful and direct - despite the fact that their technique and swing paths look very similar. Do you agree with that?
 
More Sidespin Less Topspin for High Balls

An instructor told me to increase the sidespin component for higher balls. Before that instruction, I tried to force too much topspin on higher balls. After that, for forehands and 1h backhands using more sidespin I could comfortably and reliably return the high balls. I don't try to hit pace as the instructor said that a deep, more defensive shot was a good return.

Once during a doubles match, I went for high racket head speed and nearly all sidespin and hit a trick shot that had a lot of curve, everyone was surprised by the extreme side curve trajectory, an offensive shot at my 4.0 level. I've only done one of those but I'd like to do more if I could....

I believe that I've seen pros increasing the sidespin for high balls on TV broadcasts.

In analyzing Almagro's high 1H backhands, look for the component of sidespin while the racket and ball are in contact. Compare to balls in the more comfortable height hitting zone. [Almagro has one of the loosest arms in pro tennis.]
 
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thomasferrett said:
OK, but do you think a two-handed backhand would fare better in this situation?

There was actually decent pace on that shot even if it bounced short-ish, and Ferrer could not take the initiative of the point off that backhand, instead Ferrer won the point when Almagro hit a weak inside out forehand.

When we say that Djokovic handles 'high' backhands well, we mean he hits chest and shoulder height backhands well, but when he faces a backhand that genuinely bounces high on him (i.e. well above his head, like the Almagro backhand that I posted), he tends not to even be able to reach it to hit it with two hands - he needs to take a hand off and slice it with one hand. Here is an example of that;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zHdYzBLGY#t=28
Click to expand...

well, basically YES.
when you set up for a 2 hander high ball you have better stability and control to establish a decent ball, deep with spin.
ALSO, if you're able to take the ball earlier BEFORE the rise, the 2 hander is also more secure and easier to deal with than a 1 hander.

all these options are certainly doable with a one hander,
but technically more complicated and demand earlier preparation, etc.
 
Rozroz said:
well, basically YES.
when you set up for a 2 hander high ball you have better stability and control to establish a decent ball, deep with spin.
ALSO, if you're able to take the ball earlier BEFORE the rise, the 2 hander is also more secure and easier to deal with than a 1 hander.

all these options are certainly doable with a one hander,
but technically more complicated and demand earlier preparation, etc.
Click to expand...

I want to distinguish between hitting on the rise and hitting when the ball actually is high (higher than your head).

For these situations, I believe that the 2hbh is more limited in reach - as in you will have a hard time even reaching above your head with two hands on the racket, let alone having the length of swing and range of motion up there to really drills balls above your head height with a lot of pace.

For two-handers, I think Ferrer is actually one of the best at taking really high balls on his backhand - maybe better than Djokovic who is better at taking high balls before they get too high (i.e. on the rise), but struggles when the ball actually does get too high.
 
^ Since many of could not view the OP video, perhaps you could let us know if any of the video links I provided show a BH that is similar to the one you linked.

.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
^ Since many of could not view the OP video, perhaps you could let us know if any of the video links I provided show a BH that is similar to the one you linked.

.
Click to expand...

The vids you posted are mostly shoulder to head height contact point, the video I posted was where the contact point was a good foot over Almagro's head. And it was a groundstroke, not a return of serve, so the backswing was probably a little larger. Good videos though.

I am sure that ANY two-handed backhand would struggle with this shot because of the vertical reach issue, and I would argue that a one-hander is better at handling these extreme height balls, if nothing else, because you can simply reach higher with one-hand than with two. With two-hands, the second arm also kind of gets in the way of the shot when reaching very high, which tends to slow down the swing, restricting your options in terms of hitting the ball hard when it's high.
 
SpinToWin said:
Even better: Step into the court and take the ball early.
Click to expand...

But then a guy like Nadal (or any spin-heavy clay-courter) will start intentionally dropping the ball short yet with extremely heavy spin so that it bounces before the service line yet kicks up at your head height by the time it reaches the baseline.

If you want to take that ball early, be prepared to play the entire match from no-mans land half-way between the service line and the baseline. And if you do that, your opponent will simply hit deeper, past you.

That is why Federer, despite his hugging the baseline, is still forced to hit high backhands against Nadal.

And it's why being able to handle high balls is a must if you want a well-rounded backhand. It will bot be possible to take the ball early against the type of player I have described.
 
thomasferrett said:
But then a guy like Nadal (or any spin-heavy clay-courter) will start intentionally dropping the ball short yet with extremely heavy spin so that it bounces before the service line yet kicks up at your head height by the time it reaches the baseline.
Click to expand...

This situation is not reality. But then again, you're a troll and already know this.
 
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Topspin Shot said:
This situation is not reality. But then again, you're a troll and already know this.
Click to expand...

Oh wait, I'm a troll for discussing exactly how Nadal breaks down backhands? You do not think that Nadal can hit a ball that bounces around the service line, yet kicks up to your head by the time it reaches the baseline? Have you watched clay-court tennis?

2014 Barcelona QF, 1st set, 2-2, 15-40 (Almagro's service game) is just one example of a ball that does exactly this. It bounced bang on the service line and reared up to Almagro's head by the time it reached Almagro (who was standing on the baseline).

I can find loads and loads of examples of situations like this, I keep a spreadsheet to record all the high-contact point one-handed (and some two-handed) backhands I see to analyze the mechanics of the shot.

Why do you think Federer must face high backhands against Nadal on clay despite hugging the baseline? Because Nadal has the ability to drop the ball shot yet have it kick up high.

Honestly, how is that trolling, just give up your agenda against me it's boring.
 
thomasferrett said:
Oh wait, I'm a troll for discussing exactly how Nadal breaks down backhands? You do not think that Nadal can hit a ball that bounces around the service line, yet kicks up to your head by the time it reaches the baseline? Have you watched clay-court tennis?

2014 Barcelona QF, 1st set, 2-2, 15-40 (Almagro's service game) is just one example of a ball that does exactly this. It bounced bang on the service line and reared up to Almagro's head by the time it reached Almagro (who was standing on the baseline).

I can find loads and loads of examples of situations like this, I keep a spreadsheet to record all the high-contact point one-handed (and some two-handed) backhands I see to analyze the mechanics of the shot.

Why do you think Federer must face high backhands against Nadal on clay despite hugging the baseline? Because Nadal has the ability to drop the ball shot yet have it kick up high.

Honestly, how is that trolling, just give up your agenda against me it's boring.
Click to expand...

one-does-not-simply-play-dumb.jpg
 
thomasferrett said:
I can find loads and loads of examples of situations like this, I keep a spreadsheet to record all the high-contact point one-handed (and some two-handed) backhands I see to analyze the mechanics of the shot.
Click to expand...

Now there's someone who likes high-contact-point backhands.
 
thomasferrett said:
That is a very interesting possibility.

To the guy below you - the elbow does not 'flick', but the forearm supinates throughout the contact point and/or followthrough of a modern one-handed backhand. Watch slow-motion footage of Gasquet/Wawrinka/Almagro and you will see it happen. The 'release' of the forearm refers to this supination. Dimitrov does not do it, as his backhand is somewhat old-school. Technique-wise it is actually more old-school that Federer's backhand though Dimitrov is of the new generation.

If your theory is correct that Almagro hits the ball more in front of him, and thus in the later, flatter part of his swing than Gasquet, who hits the ball closer to him and thus in the earlier, loopier part of the swing, then that would explain why Gasquet's backhand almost always tends to be a much loopier shot that Almagro's backhand which is more forceful and direct - despite the fact that their technique and swing paths look very similar. Do you agree with that?
Click to expand...

yes... great explanation!
 
tennispro492 said:
Don't understand why you hating on tennishack...he is always coming up with intelligent technique based discussion...don't you like discussing backhand technique?
Click to expand...

Sure I like talking about backhands, but he posts the same thread over and over again. The other thing is when you're banned, you aren't supposed to come back again unless your ban is lifted. That kind of defeats the purpose of being banned.
 
Here is another recent vid of Almagro hitting a high backhand. Not as high as the one you guys in the USA can't see, but still around head-height.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUuCyWwGF3s#t=478

(Btw, yes Nishikori hits a winner off that shot, but he was forced into the low percentage winner by Almagro's backhand, so Almagro's backhand wasn't the weak shot in this rally, he forced Nishikori to come up with the goods, and Nishikori did so).

I have always noticed that Almagro gets a lot of pace and low trajectory off this kind of height ball whereas if you give Gasquet a ball of this height, he will spin it up pretty high and loopy (and thus, slower). But Almagro and Gasquet both have the same technique which involves that characteristic wrist/forearm 'flourish' at the end of the stroke (I called it the 'helicopter backhand').

Can only think that, like geca said, the different result of the shot (low and fast vs high and loopy) is due to Almagro hitting the ball more in front of him (and possibly leaning into the shot more), and Gasquet hitting closer to him (and possibly pulling away from the shot with his weight)...

What do you guys think?
 
thomasferrett said:
.......................
What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Find high speed videos of these backhands close up. Look for the way the racket impacts the ball in detail.

Concentrate on impacts. Maybe there are several ways to end the follow through even with similar racket-ball impacts, since the racket has slowed down.

I realize that high speed videos of high backhands may be hard to find...........
 
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