"This is nuts": Martina Navratilova lambasts WADA for appealing Sinner’s ‘no negligence’

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Players dope because they believe it will make a difference, not because it does.

Had Sinner's form deteriorated post March there might be more substance to the notion that he was doping. Playing with or without a billionth of a gram of clostebol in his system doesn't seem to make any difference.
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
I wouldn't have put it like that because I've seen far crazier coincidences than this one. Two leading players in a sport claim to have inadvertently breached a drug rule. Given the number of substances banned and the tiny quantities that return as positive it doesn't seem terribly improbable.
Well if you believe it, that's ok. I just don't :)
 

Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
Just some crazy bad luck hehe. And the sport of tennis looks fantastic having this happen! Weird coincidence the top players on either tour test positive to doping and have a perfect excuse that oh no my dumb trainer didn't read the label of the steroid cream or oh no my sleeping pills were contaminated!

What are you babbling on about?

The two top players Sinner and Iga tested positive. That is a fact.
Some are speculating that those two are just the tip of the iceberg and that doping is prevalent among all players.
Others do not believe that intentional doping is prevalent. They believe that Sinner and Iga were cases of accidental contamination.
What part of that do you not understand?

If one believes that doping is prevalent we should statistically expect to see other players test positive.
 
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travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Had Sinner's form deteriorated post March there might be more substance to the notion that he was doping. Playing with or without a billionth of a gram of clostebol in his system doesn't seem to make any difference.
Why would anyone assume that a player who successsfully leapfrogged his top rivals to become #1 by muscling up and lowering his body fat % would stop doping with with anabolic steroids after being caught? The more likely assumption is that he would just hide his tracks better.
 

LeftyMagic

Rookie
i wouldnt say shes winning an Olympia any time soon, she started lifting and eating. In one of many documentaries on her shes shown training in the gym. And shes lifting more like a bodybuilder at the time than todays strong thin wiry strength training protocols. I get what you are trying to say, but noticeable muscle development is possible in your late 20s. She had strong legs and calves to begin with. Her upperbody leaned out. How were her genetics? Im all for call outs, but you gotta think it through a little more….also what supplements were around then? prob the hard stuff. Which wouldnt have helped her on court in reality
 

reaper

Legend
Well if you believe it, that's ok. I just don'
Why would anyone assume that a player who successsfully leapfrogged his top rivals to become #1 by muscling up and lowering his body fat % would stop doping with with anabolic steroids after being caught? The more likely assumption is that he would just hide his tracks better.
If he had at his disposal undetectable methods why would he not have used them in the first place?
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
We're just saying it'is plausibile, you can believe in whatever you want.
Could've saved an hour of arguing if you had just accepted that I was questioning the BS coincidence of it all. I literally told you this when you asked me 58 minutes ago. If you think it's plausible whatever. I didn't then and I still don't.

I'm saying i'm starting to question it as a result of these two.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
i wouldnt say shes winning an Olympia any time soon, she started lifting and eating. In one of many documentaries on her shes shown training in the gym. And shes lifting more like a bodybuilder at the time than todays strong thin wiry strength training protocols. I get what you are trying to say, but noticeable muscle development is possible in your late 20s. She had strong legs and calves to begin with. Her upperbody leaned out. How were her genetics? Im all for call outs, but you gotta think it through a little more….also what supplements were around then? prob the hard stuff. Which wouldnt have helped her on court in reality
I’m not saying it’s impossible for a female to transform her body to that extent without the aid of steroids.

But I’m an Occam’s razor guy.
 

Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
Why would anyone assume that a player who successsfully leapfrogged his top rivals to become #1 by muscling up and lowering his body fat % would stop doping with with anabolic steroids after being caught? The more likely assumption is that he would just hide his tracks better.

More likely that he would stay clean. It is just too risky to get caught a second time. Career would be over...
But if it is that easy to hide his tracks, then the entire doping system is flawed.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
More likely that he would stay clean. It is just too risky to get caught a second time. Career would be over...
But if it is that easy to hide his tracks, then the entire doping system is flawed.
But what if staying clean is the difference between having a multi slam winning career or a city bus type career?
 

reaper

Legend
But what if staying clean is the difference between having a multi slam winning career or a city bus type career?
That temptation is out there for any player who believes that pumping themselves up with a billionth of a gram of a wonder drug will turn them from a mouse into a lion.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
That temptation is out there for any player who believes that pumping themselves up with a billionth of a gram of a wonder drug will turn them from a mouse into a lion.
The trace amount of a drug that clears the system quickly could easily have had 1000-fold higher or more concentration at an earlier period. And if microdosing, it’s easy to make sure that the amounts found when tested are almost always going to be within the range that can be blamed on contamination.

Top ranked players with more resources than their competitors have better access to more sophisticated micro dosing that can beat testing easier. Testing thresholds got stricter this year, and the players with the most resources started getting caught.
 

Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
The trace amount of a drug that clears the system quickly could easily have had 1000-fold higher or more concentration at an earlier period. And if microdosing, it’s easy to make sure that the amounts found when tested are almost always going to be within the range that can be blamed on contamination.

These players are tested 52 weeks of the year. Are tested an average of once every eight days.
There is no scenario where there would be a 1000-fold higher concentration in their system. Those high levels will eventually be detected by the continuous random testing.
 

reaper

Legend
The trace amount of a drug that clears the system quickly could easily have had 1000-fold higher or more concentration at an earlier period. And if microdosing, it’s easy to make sure that the amounts found when tested are almost always going to be within the range that can be blamed on contamination.

Players with more resources have better access to more sophisticated micro dosing that can beat testing easier.
What evidence can you supply supporting that. Specifically that it's easy to have a 1000 fold higher concentration of clostebol at an earlier period while maintaining near certainty that at the time of testing the concentration will have reduced to an amount attributable to contamination. How do you avoid the possibility of a test occurring during the period of higher concentration?
 

tennis_error

Professional
Sinner and now Swiatek have truly destroyed tennis's image. It is tearing this sport apart, nobody can take any of the agencies seriously whether ITIA or WADA.

ITIA butchered Halep, they let Sinner and Swiatek off easy as a result. WADA are horrified at how weak they were on Sinner so they want to appeal.

These two players - particularly Sinner (who only sacked the trainer who used the doping cream after it became public knowledge several months later) have ruined the sport.

Tennis is entering the doping cycling era. 2025 Aus Open is going to have the biggest cloud over it if these two are allowed to play. Hopefully Alcaraz and Sabalenka can save this sport.
Agree on everything...
Bold, there is only one tennis savior and he will deliver as always ;)
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
It's the players who believe performance is enhanced based on their limited knowledge and even more limited access to real drugs.

Sports administrators test for performance enhancing drugs that don't enhance performance. Seems...self defeating.
 

tennis_error

Professional
I agree with you but my position is now that virtually all top players have been doping in some capacity. Similar to MLB in the 1990's or Cycling in the 2000's. Two #1's going down this year is way, way too much smoke to not be connected to a massive fire.
Be quiet please, one guy could sue you as he wanted to sue France minister ;)
 

reaper

Legend
It's the players who believe performance is enhanced based on their limited knowledge and even more limited access to real drugs.
Yes, but it doesn't seem logical that the authorities would test for substances that they believe make no difference. Even if they are detecting them in quantities that would make no difference, forcing them to guess whether the player is cheating or a victim of circumstances.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
What evidence can you supply supporting that. Specifically that it's easy to have a 1000 fold higher concentration of clostebol at an earlier period while maintaining near certainty that at the time of testing the concentration will have reduced to an amount attributable to contamination. How do you avoid the possibility of a test occurring during the period of higher concentration?
I could take the time to provide evidence that the earth is round too. Or you could look it up yourself instead of staying in ignorant disbelief.

The only way to catch dopers is to test for these trace amounts. So the onus needs to be on the athlete to avoid stupid ways to get contaminated so that they can’t rely on bogus excuses when they get busted.
 

Watching

Rookie
I could take the time to provide evidence that the earth is round too. Or you could look it up yourself instead of staying in ignorant disbelief.
Nah we're not as good as you are at looking for this evidence, we would really appreciate if you could provide it since it's apparently very easy for you to get ahold of it.
 

Bambooman

Legend
i wouldnt say shes winning an Olympia any time soon, she started lifting and eating. In one of many documentaries on her shes shown training in the gym. And shes lifting more like a bodybuilder at the time than todays strong thin wiry strength training protocols. I get what you are trying to say, but noticeable muscle development is possible in your late 20s. She had strong legs and calves to begin with. Her upperbody leaned out. How were her genetics? Im all for call outs, but you gotta think it through a little more….also what supplements were around then? prob the hard stuff. Which wouldnt have helped her on court in reality
The main benefit of steroids is faster recovery. That helps.
 

reaper

Legend
I could take the time to provide evidence that the earth is round too. Or you could look it up yourself instead of staying in ignorant disbelief.

The only way to catch dopers is to test for these trace amounts. So the onus needs to be on the athlete to avoid stupid ways to get contaminated so that they can’t rely on bogus excuses when they get busted.
The claim you made was narrow and specific. All I'm asking for is supporting evidence.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Martina slams the decision of WADA to appeal the ‘no negligence’ part of ITIA’s ruling based on expert opinion. Contrary to the (ex-)players of Nasty&Company she shows an understanding of the issue, indicating a careful reading of the evidence. Contrast that to the intellectual depth of a former drug-abuser which is convinced that non-humans build the pyramids.

The concern about the contamination risk for players shows awareness of the scientific literature. Even WADA itself has admitted this can result in unjustified doping charges and has initiated a working group to understand the issue better.
With all due respect to martina, she does not know more than all of us at this point.

Sinner's case depends on plausible deniability. No one knows about intentions, just like no one knows if that was masking agent or something.

Do they?

I tend to believe whatever the agencies will believe. But not taking any side.
 

SeeItHitIt

Professional
Those of us who witnessed the ‘East German’ women in the Olympics during the 70’s & 80’s know full well about the ‘abuses’. Women can go to the gym all they want, but dont naturally build much in the way of traps, triceps or those cannonball delts (not withou…assistance). Martina was an early adopter, but whether it’s Sam Stoser or a certain ‘champion’ initialed SW, the practice has been around and essentially sanctioned.
 

NattyGut

Professional
Martina slams the decision of WADA to appeal the ‘no negligence’ part of ITIA’s ruling based on expert opinion. Contrary to the (ex-)players of Nasty&Company she shows an understanding of the issue, indicating a careful reading of the evidence. Contrast that to the intellectual depth of a former drug-abuser which is convinced that non-humans build the pyramids.

The concern about the contamination risk for players shows awareness of the scientific literature. Even WADA itself has admitted this can result in unjustified doping charges and has initiated a working group to understand the issue better.
Amen.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
I'm sure MN logs into TTW every day to get her tennis news :rolleyes:
There is no amount of ridiculing that will shame me.

Martina is just like others at this point. She knows at most as much as collective ttw. In fact people here have found other cases and stuff which no single person can know.
 
Man, what a mess. The very authorities created to take a fair, consistent stance, seemingly toying with the future of players, seemingly without rhyme or reason for the decisions they make. When rules are mis-applied /applied arbitrarily, they become meaningless.
Meanwhile, and addressing Jannik's case from a bystander's perspective, the dude has had an outstanding year, should be enjoying that wonderful success. Instead, he is likely to be burdened by the ongoing uncertainty of a final outcome. What a disgrace that this is being dragged out.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I’m saying that Navratilova made an unforced error in coming out with this statement, given that she knows many people already suspected her to be a steroid user (she threatened to sue a social media user last year, which was also not the smartest move as it shined the spotlight on her).
In her time, and given her preferences, it was common to speculate like that. It was only when straight females developed bodies by natural exercise that the myths started fading.
 

Watching

Rookie
In her time, and given her preferences, it was common to speculate like that. It was only when straight females developed bodies by natural exercise that the myths started fading.
Tbf the myth started circulating when the ladies started sporting moustaches
 

Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
Czechoslovakia was a Soviet satellite state and doping was extremely common. Indeed, doping was strongly encouraged. Practically mandatory for pro athletes.
Good on your favourite Martina Navratilova for apparently staying clean during this era.
:unsure:

Many professional athletes from Czechoslovakia, including tennis players, were involved in doping practices during the 1970s and 1980s. Evidence from secret documents has revealed that the Czechoslovak government systematically administered performance-enhancing drugs to athletes as part of a state-sponsored program aimed at boosting national prestige in international sports competitions.

Czechoslovakia Doping:​

  • Systematic Doping Program: The doping program was officially sanctioned and involved doctors, trainers, and sports officials supplying athletes with anabolic steroids and other banned substances. This practice began as early as the mid-1970s, particularly in preparation for major events like the 1976 Olympic Games
  • Political Motivation: The rationale behind this program was not only to enhance athletic performance but also to promote the political image of Czechoslovakia during the Cold War. Officials believed that successful athletes would demonstrate the superiority of the communist regime over Western nations
  • Pressure on Athletes: Many athletes faced significant pressure to participate in these doping practices, with those who refused often being excluded from national teams or competitions. Some athletes were aware of their involvement in doping, while others were kept in the dark about the extent of the program
  • Broader Context: The Czechoslovak doping practices were part of a larger trend seen in other Eastern Bloc countries, where state-sponsored doping programs were common. This has led to ongoing discussions about the integrity of sports during that era and the long-term health consequences for athletes involved
In summary, while not every athlete may have participated in doping, a significant number did, especially under the pressures and incentives created by the communist regime in Czechoslovakia during that time period.
 

norcal

Legend
What's wild is that in a collective 45+ years of dominance there was not one single positive test between Fed/Nads/Djo, yet in 2024 the top man and woman test positive.

crazy.gif
 

Watching

Rookie
What's wild is that in a collective 45+ years of dominance there was not one single positive test between Fed/Nads/Djo, yet in 2024 the top man and woman test positive.

crazy.gif
Tbf her alibi is rock solid. Like, granite solid.
 
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I’m saying that Navratilova made an unforced error in coming out with this statement, given that she knows many people already suspected her to be a steroid user (she threatened to sue a social media user last year, which was also not the smartest move as it shined the spotlight on her).
All of these guys are just trying to protect the universally rampant doping industry in sports.
 
I got your point, you believe this is all a real funny coincidence. (You're saying it's not the word "coincidence" but I mean it is, these two exact events of failing a doping test, happening to the #1 player?)

Just so unlucky for them both that this happened to them this year!

Both of them with really bad luck :( A dumb trainer using a steroid cream and the real unfortunate luck of a contaminated sleeping pill!

Literally 50+ players I could list all safe and not going through this but just so unlucky and coincidental we get the #1 player on the ATP & WTA going through it? AND IN THE SAME YEAR?

What a coincidence :) Hehe.
Everyone is involved in the universally rampant doping industry in sports.
 
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