Thought experiment: respective slam success if Djokovic is six years older and replaces Federer / Federer is six years younger and replaces Djokovic

Do you find this comparison telling as to who the better player really is?

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BauerAlmeida said:
Being the oldest was also a golden ticket but Federer didn't fully take advantage of that. He only won 1 slam between 2001 and 2003 and only started peaking in 2004. Djokovic and Nadal would have certainly won more slams during that period.
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Djokovic would win 2-3 slams in all likelihood, hardly a dealbreaker.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Assuming slam performances stay identical with respect to age for the sake of comparison, of course.

Which slams does Djokovic win in this hypothetical?

2007 Djokovic in 2001:
AO, RG, WB - obviously no
USO - no (loses to pre-final Sampras or Hewitt)

2008 Djokovic in 2002:
AO - obviously yes
RG - probably yes (beats Costa, probably beats pre-final Ferrero)
WB - obviously no
USO - no (loses to Sampras, probably Agassi and Hewitt too)

2009 Djokovic in 2003:
AO, RG, WB - obviously no
USO - probably no (I think he loses to Roddick but let's count it as a possibility to be generous)

2010 Djokovic in 2004:
AO - no (given he wilted vs Tsonga, Hewitt/Nalbandian/pre-final Safin/Agassi/Roddick should be too much)
RG - no (loses to pre-final Coria/Gaudio)
WB - no (loses to Roddick/Hewitt)
USO - probably no (I think he loses to Agassi but let's count this as a possibility)

2011 Djokovic in 2005:
AO - yes (beats Safin in epic 5)
RG - no (Nadal is already there and too strong)
WB - yes
USO - yes

2012 Djokovic in 2006:
AO - yes
RG - no
WB - yes (should beat Greendal in a competitive match)
USO - yes (no wind in this scenario and pre-wind Djokovic was peak)

2013 Djokovic in 2007:
AO - yes
RG - no
WB - no
USO - I think yes (struggles against Roddick and his younger self but beats them like he beat Wawrinka)

2014 Djokovic in 2008:
AO - no (loses to his younger self)
RG - no
WB - no (if Aulderer takes him to five there's no beating peakdal)
USO - maybe (given 2014 Noel lost to Nishikori, a loss to pre-final Murray or Djoko's younger self is on the cards)

2015 Djokovic in 2009:
AO - probably no (peakdal too good for strugglevic I reckon)
RG - probably yes (should beat del Potro in five aided by matchup)
WB - yes (roddick no slouch but peakovic too good)
USO - yes (beats Delpo again)

2016 Djokovic in 2010:
AO - yes
RG - no
WB, USO - obviously no (can't compete with peakdal in that form)

2017 Djokovic in 2011:
no slams obviously

2018 Djokovic in 2012:
AO, RG - obviously no
WB - maybe (50/50 vs Murray perhaps)
USO - maybe (loses to his 2012 self pre-final but if he's in the other half he could beat Murray and his younger self in the wind perhaps)

2019 Djokovic in 2013:
AO - maybe? (comes to 2013 vs 2019 Djokovic, far tougher draw in 2013 but the way he thumped Nadal in 19 was quite impressive so I don't know)
RG - no
WB - no (given the messy 2019 final he's not beating Murray there)
USO - no

2020 Djokovic in 2014:
AO - no (loses to his 2014 self, Wawrinka or pre-final Nadal)
RG - no
WB - doesn't exist in 2020 but likely no anyway
USO - not if he gets DQ'd

2021 Djokovic in 2015:
AO - no (loses to his 2015 self)
RG - no (loses to his 2015 self or Wawrinka most likely)
WB - no (loses to his 2015 self)
USO - no (loses to his 2015 self)

2022 Djokovic in 2016:
AO - would play without the vaccine debacle but loses to his 2016 self anyway
RG - no (loses to his 2016 self, possibly pre-final Murray/Wawrinka also)
WB - no (loses to Murray)
USO - would play without the vaccine debacle and may or may not win against his 2016 self and Wawrinka

2023 Djokovic in 2017:
AO - yes (beats Wawrinka/Nadal in a competitive match as Fed did)
RG - no
WB - yes (2017 field was quite weak, think none barring Fed - who is replaced here - were even up to Karl's level)
USO - probably no (I think he loses to 2017 Nadal but let's consider this a possibility)

Result:
6-8 AO
0-2 RG
4-5 WB
4-10 USO (what a wild range, speaks to Djoko's consistency but lack of sustained peak)
total: 14-25

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Now which slams does Federer win in this hypothetical?

2003 Federer in 2009:
AO, RG - obviously no
WB - yes (beats his 09 self and Roddick)
USO - obviously no

2004 Federer in 2010:
AO - probably yes (I think he beats his 2010 self)
RG - no
WB - yes (beats Nadal in a tough match)
USO - probably yes (I think he beats Nadal but let's consider this a possible loss)

2005 Federer in 2011:
AO - yes (beats his 2011 self and Murray easy)
RG - no
WB - yes
USO - yes

2006 Federer in 2012:
AO - probably no (loses to Nadal in that up-and-down form I suppose, but a win is possible)
RG - no
WB - yes
USO - yes

2007 Federer in 2013:
AO - yes
RG - no
WB - yes
USO - probably yes (suppose a loss to Nadal is also possible)

2008 Federer in 2014:
AO - maybe (Wawrinka and pre-final Nadal tough obstacles)
RG - no
WB - yes (beats his 2014 self)
USO - yes (beats Cilic and co)

2009 Federer in 2015:
AO - yes (beats Wawrinka and Murray)
RG - probably yes (should beat Wawrinka)
WB - yes (beats his 2015 self)
USO - yes (beats his 2015 self)

2010 Federer in 2016:
AO - yes (beats his 2016 self and Murray)
RG - maybe (may lose to pre-final Murray/Wawrinka but beats final Murray and co, I think)
WB - no (loses to Murray)
USO - maybe (I think he beats 2016 Djokovic and Wawrinka, but not a given)

2011 Federer in 2017:
AO - yes (beats his 2017 self and Nadal, there I said it)
RG - no
WB - yes (no peak tsonga to upset him in the 2017 field)
USO - yes (beats 2017 Nadal)

2012 Federer in 2018:
AO - yes (beats his 2018 self)
RG - no
WB - yes (beats 2018 Nadal)
USO - maybe (may or may not beat 2018 del Potro)

2013 Federer in 2019:
AO - maybe (even that Federer could probably wear down 2019 AO Nadal)
RG, WB, USO - obviously no

2014 Federer in 2020:
AO - probably yes (I think he beats Thiem and co, but not an autowin probably)
RG - no
WB - N/A (sad)
USO - probably yes (may lose to Thiem pre-final but beats him in the final and beats the rest)

2015 Federer in 2021:
AO - obviously no
RG - no (though I imagine the Nadal match would be actually competitive)
WB - yes
USO - yes

2016 Federer in 2022:
AO - yes (Med/Nadal wouldn't be getting a set off peakovic I bet)
RG - absent
WB - maybe (the 2022 field is so poor even Hobblerer could beat it unless he collapses, which is possible I suppose)
USO - absent

2017 Federer in 2023:
AO - yes
RG - absent (though I imagine he may play knowing that Nadal is absent, but let's keep the comparison clean)
WB - yes
USO - maybe (don't trust Medvedev/Alcaraz here)

TBD:
2018 AO in 2024, 2019 RG/WB in 2025, other post-2017 showings are not slam-winning forms in any case

Result:
8-13 AO
0-2 RG
11-12 WB
6-12 USO
total: 25-39 + 0-3 TBD (massive range here, speaks to Federer's consistency and being tough to put away)

Nice to have the difference spelled out so clearly. I didn't engineer the results before I did the count, if you're wondering. Looks like Djokovic is trailing pretty strongly in this age-adjusted hypothetical. What it tells us, hmm?
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So am I right assuming to get a closer number that 25-39 is 34-35 for Fed and 14-25 is 17-18 slams for Djokovic?
 
Fed being 6 years younger will be the chaser, and a golden opportunity to rack up 10+ slams in the CIE, it's very likely he could reach nearly 30 slams since he's a better player
 
Federev said:
Thus I think it’s a fair assessment to conclude that Federer - at his best - is a better tennis player than Novak - at his best.

Honestly - is that so unreasonable an argument?
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I think that there is absolutely no basis to this argument.

The honest answer is that using stats to construct an imaginary scenario in your head about a matchup tells you nothing about the outcome of that potential match. Because you can’t even predict real matches with stats.

I watched some highlights of the 2009 USO sf between Djokovic and Federer, when Federer got triple match point by passing Djokovic with a tweener on Djokovic’s serve. Djokovic smiled to himself, then served and returned a forehand into the net. Federer simply played better that match, and you have to acknowledge it. Then USO 2010 and 2011 happened. Djokovic played better, so he won.

For me that’s all it is, no excuses.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Being the oldest was also a golden ticket but Federer didn't fully take advantage of that. He only won 1 slam between 2001 and 2003 and only started peaking in 2004. Djokovic and Nadal would have certainly won more slams during that period.
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The oldest didn't win any slam after 2012, with the full field. Djokovic had an injured elbow in '16-18. Federer was only 32 then. That was why Federer lost the race. Federer started winning slams at 23, which was earlier than Djokovic.

Federer might be the better player, which I disagree with, but Djokovic is a far more determined man.
 
SonnyT said:
'19 WB was the only match, between the two of them, in which the winner had a dominance ratio less than 1. But that match only adds to the Djokovic mystique, and the Federer choke-fest.

To say that the rivalry would be closer or some match outcomes would be different, that Djokfans can accept. But saying that Federer would clean up, that Djokfans can't accept. I mean, here's a guy who, since '08 til the day he retired, could not beat either Nadal or Djokovic or both. He was 27 at the time, the prime of his career.
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Fed was the trailblazer at extending career into the mid-late 30s. But he started having back problems quite early on in his 30s. He lost to tommy robredo at the uso 2012, and had a bad 2013. Djokovic has been able to build on that and able to maintain better fitness.

Fed was disadvantaged having to contend against both peak Nadal and Djokovic at the same time. He solved the Nadal puzzle off clay quite late, and that's a ding against him and his team. Similarly, he should have spent more time figuring out why he was getting close but not closing out matches against Djokovic in his later career years. He also blew 0-2 leads against tsonga, kevin anderson. So I think these were a combination of decline and competing against 2 peak atgs simultaneously which were beyond his control, but also strategies which his team should have addressed.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Djokovic would win 2-3 slams in all likelihood, hardly a dealbreaker.
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What amount would be a dealbreaker? And he can win more than that. He was already on slam-winning form in HC at the time losing mostly to Federer (or beating him at the AO) or injury (Roddick), arguably on clay too (In 2008 and 2009 he was going toe to toe with Nadal in certain matches and Nadal was far better than anyone on clay back in the early 2000s). On grass I agree he couldn't win probably but in 2007 he was beating Nadal before the physical issues and I don't think anyone outside Fedal was better than him on grass. In 2008 he was unlucky with the draw and he got Safin early but otherwise I think he makes easily the SF and nobody bar Fedal beats him as well, he went toe to toe with Nadal in Queen's and choked a bit. And Wimbledon post Sampras and pre Federer was open. Ivanisevic won being ranked outside the top 100 and in 2002 Nalbandian made the final being ranked like 30 in the world. Hewitt was a very good grasscourter but I think young Djokovic was on a similar level.


Anyway, these hypotheticals don't mean much when they involve a player facing himself or are very specific. Like, say putting 2010 Djokovic which was in a total slump and having the 2nd worst year of his career in place of Federer in 2004 when he was peaking and having one of his top 4 seasons ever. A hypothetical makes more sense when it's less specific and more general, like putting 2011 Djokovic in place of 2004 would make more sense since it was their first truly dominant season and when they reached their peak, regardless of their age.
 
sportsfan1 said:
Fed was the trailblazer at extending career into the mid-late 30s. But he started having back problems quite early on in his 30s. He lost to tommy robredo at the uso 2012, and had a bad 2013. Djokovic has been able to build on that and able to maintain better fitness.

Fed was disadvantaged having to contend against both peak Nadal and Djokovic at the same time. He solved the Nadal puzzle off clay quite late, and that's a ding against him and his team. Similarly, he should have spent more time figuring out why he was getting close but not closing out matches against Djokovic in his later career years. He also blew 0-2 leads against tsonga, kevin anderson. So I think these were a combination of decline and competing against 2 peak atgs simultaneously which were beyond his control, but also strategies which his team should have addressed.
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I mean, you can't exactly plan for matches that happened 8 years apart from one another. Fed couldn't even get to MP for 7 years so he wasn't even getting close.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
What amount would be a dealbreaker? And he can win more than that. He was already on slam-winning form in HC at the time losing mostly to Federer (or beating him at the AO) or injury (Roddick), arguably on clay too (In 2008 and 2009 he was going toe to toe with Nadal in certain matches and Nadal was far better than anyone on clay back in the early 2000s). On grass I agree he couldn't win probably but in 2007 he was beating Nadal before the physical issues and I don't think anyone outside Fedal was better than him on grass. In 2008 he was unlucky with the draw and he got Safin early but otherwise I think he makes easily the SF and nobody bar Fedal beats him as well, he went toe to toe with Nadal in Queen's and choked a bit. And Wimbledon post Sampras and pre Federer was open. Ivanisevic won being ranked outside the top 100 and in 2002 Nalbandian made the final being ranked like 30 in the world. Hewitt was a very good grasscourter but I think young Djokovic was on a similar level.


Anyway, these hypotheticals don't mean much when they involve a player facing himself or are very specific. Like, say putting 2010 Djokovic which was in a total slump and having the 2nd worst year of his career in place of Federer in 2004 when he was peaking and having one of his top 4 seasons ever. A hypothetical makes more sense when it's less specific and more general, like putting 2011 Djokovic in place of 2004 would make more sense since it was their first truly dominant season and when they reached their peak, regardless of their age.
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Djokovic doesn't win any slams in 2001 if he gets Federer's draws.
 
mike danny said:
I mean, you can't exactly plan for matches that happened 8 years apart from one another. Fed couldn't even get to MP for 7 years so he wasn't even getting close.
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Include 5 set matches and consider those lost from 2-0 sets up. As well as matches with sets blown from leading positions with flurry of ufes.
2010 uso, 2011 uso, mid 201x's wimbys etc.
Then add in the losses from 2-0 sets up to tsonga etc and there's a problem to work on all of last decade. Only the racquet change and hitting the backhand were good steps that happened too late in his career. Most of the changes with edberg and annacone at that time were focused on making tennis more aggressive and fun. Sabr was a gimmick that wasn't gonna be a long term viable strategy.
 
Who played at a higher level?

1. Hewitt USO 01 QF or Federer USO 15 final
2. Federer RG 10 QF or Wawrinka AO 14 QF
3. Aynaoui AO 03 QF or Djokovic RG 15 SF
4. Agassi AO 01 final or Murray AO 12 SF
5. Djokovic Wim 14 SF or Murray Wim 12 final
 
RS said:
Who played at a higher level?

1. Hewitt USO 01 QF or Federer USO 15 final
2. Federer RG 10 QF or Wawrinka AO 14 QF
3. Aynaoui AO 03 QF or Djokovic RG 15 SF
4. Agassi AO 01 final or Murray AO 12 SF
5. Djokovic Wim 14 SF or Murray Wim 12 final
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Is this one serious? It’s not even close to being close. Usually your hypotheticals are pretty evenly matched.
 
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Kralingen said:
Is this one serious? It’s not even close to being close. Usually your hypotheticals are pretty evenly matched.
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Sod was said to have played better than Stan by some of TTW.

And I even mean the AO 13 and RG 15 Stan not just this one. I do think Stan should probably get the benefit of the doubt in that one though.
 
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soldat said:
I think that there is absolutely no basis to this argument.

The honest answer is that using stats to construct an imaginary scenario in your head about a matchup tells you nothing about the outcome of that potential match. Because you can’t even predict real matches with stats.

I watched some highlights of the 2009 USO sf between Djokovic and Federer, when Federer got triple match point by passing Djokovic with a tweener on Djokovic’s serve. Djokovic smiled to himself, then served and returned a forehand into the net. Federer simply played better that match, and you have to acknowledge it. Then USO 2010 and 2011 happened. Djokovic played better, so he won.

For me that’s all it is, no excuses.
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I’m arguing from the greater to the lesser. It’s not difficult to see the merit.

Post peak Federer gave peak Novak a very very hard time, taking him out in four at Wimby and RG and pushing him to MPs at the USO.

Not hard to postulate that peak Federer would do even better.

Meanwhile - Novak did nothing of the sort to Federer at any of these tournaments when Federer was in his own peak.

Of course you’re a Novak fan and I’m a Federer fan, so that will prove conclusive for this discussion - no doubt.
 
Federev said:
I’m arguing from the greater to the lesser. It’s not difficult to see the merit.

Post peak Federer gave peak Novak a very very hard time, taking him out in four at Wimby and RG and pushing him to MPs at the USO.

Not hard to postulate that peak Federer would do even better.

Meanwhile - Novak did nothing of the sort to Federer at any of these tournaments when Federer was in his own peak.

Of course you’re a Novak fan and I’m a Federer fan, so that will prove conclusive for this discussion - no doubt.
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If you look at the h2h record from 2005 to 2010 there is no denying that Federer had more wins than losses, 13-6. From 2011 to 2015 Djokovic had evened out the h2h, by 2015 to the end of Federer’s career it was reversed 3-7.

There was no way to predict the winner on any given day for these real matches, let alone for an imaginary one.

What I can say is that based on the results in the biggest matches I saw, I’d give the edge to Djokovic. He simply played better and better under pressure than Federer. It doesn’t mean that if Djokovic had played Federer again say in Wimbledon 2020 that he would win, there’s no telling what the outcome would be.

You also automatically assume a 24 year old version is better than a 30 year old version of a tennis player. There’s zero evidence for that in an imaginary match. The best thing to do is maybe research the match performance stats, avg 1st serve speed, serve percentage, unenforced errors, etc. and do a comparison between each year of Federer’s play to see what improved and what declined. Judging just from Federer’s results though, you’d likely find that Federer was playing perfectly well up to maybe a year before the end of his career.
 
Federev said:
If were essentially asking who is the better player at their very best…

As I said somewhere else:

“I look at the USO in ‘11, RG in ‘11, and WB in ‘12 - all actual real historical matches - and I conclude that if well post-peak Federer could play peak Novak this well - then it’s highly likely peak Federer would do even better.

Thus I think it’s a fair assessment to conclude that Federer - at his best - is a better tennis player than Novak - at his best.

Honestly - is that so unreasonable an argument?

You may not agree - but is that really entirely subjective and without any evidence - even if you don’t accept it?

In fact - there is little to no data at all to prove that Novak - at his best - is a better tennis player than Federer - at his best.

Give Novak the next two years of CYGS against Ruuds and Medvedevs and it still doesn’t change his performances against Federer from 2007-2012.”
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Look at Nadal-Federer matches from 2015 onwards in isolation and you might have been tempted to conclude that Federer would be crushing him even harder in their younger days as well (since Fed was the one further away from his best days). In reality Nadal was giving him hell much more than the other way around. Players with zero to two Wimbledon titles and not many deep runs pushed young Federer to the brink on some occasions. And yet somehow it's silly to think Djokovic would do the same or better despite being quite clearly the next best we have seen on modern grass, all because he lost once in four sets, with the decisive third being a close one. Even more so for their Roland Garros 2011 tiebreak sets. The kind of sets that results in wambulances whenever Djokovic usually takes them instead is supposed to prove Federer being better on clay in this case, despite pretty much everything else suggesting otherwise.

Their 2007-2012 H2H is actually the narrowest advantage for Federer, 14-13. Djokovic is the one who scored more upsets in that timeframe, which makes sense since for about 4 of those 6 years that you chose to begin with, it was in fact Federer who carried higher expectations. So it's not hard to find data that shows Djokovic's superiority. If it's not grass or the fastest of hard courts, he has the edge. If the match goes down to the wire, he becomes more likely to prevail regardless of the venue. Both in the match up and against the rest of the field. This is all actual and historical too (and was already before "Ruuds and Medvedevs"), and in bigger quantity than whichever three singled out matches. Which data one wants to deem as significant or not is another story.

Margins are tight far more often than what we usually perceive and think at first. The Fedovic matchup is one of the best examples of that since for the most of their rivalry both were capable of causing trouble to one another regardless of their contrasting forms at the given moment, or the surface. The only two times there was any bigger winning run for either were Fed winning their first four matches, before Novak even cracked top 10, and Novak winning five in 2015-19, when them not facing in 2017 helped maintain the streak. For all these reasons it's very bold to disregard either when comparing them.
 
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RS said:
Sod was said to have played better than Stan by some of TTW.

And I even mean the AO 13 and RG 15 Stan not just this one. I do think Stan should probably get the benefit of the doubt in that one though.
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The Guru said:
Would be far from shocking to see people go with Fed there. I've seen way worse regularly.
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I really need to rewatch this match in that case.

My general recollection was Fed did admirably given his low base level but ultimately succumbed to power over and over again.

Telling that this is literally the 1 (one) out of 17 matches Soderling won vs Fed and Federer trounced him in the previous year’s final.
 
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Kralingen said:
I really need to rewatch this match in that case.

My general recollection was Fed did admirably given his low base level but ultimately succumbed to power over and over again.

Telling that this is literally the 1 (one) out of 17 matches Soderling won vs Fed and Federer trounced him in the previous year’s final.
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Soderling was every bit as good as in the 2009 4R in that QF, if not even better. A great match all in all, and Federer did well although not too well. By level I’d take Stan.

Fed did hit godmode in the first set—one of his best on clay imo—but it’s more than counteracted by the tame showing he put into the last few. Major credit to Soderling for not wilting after withstanding that beating in the first though.
 
RS said:
Who played at a higher level?

1. Federer USO 09 SF or Federer Wim 09 final
2. Federer RG 09 SF or Djokovic USO 15 final
3. Nadal RG 18 final or Federer USO 09 final
4. Djokovic USO 10 final or Djokovic RG 15 final
5. Federer USO 07 final or Federer Wim 04 final
6. Nadal USO 13 final or Federer Wim 09 final
7. Nadal RG 14 final or Nadal Wim 07 final
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Federer for all
 
Federer aged 36 only reached 1 Slam final between the USO 2017 and the USO 2018 (and he didn't fake Nadovic in those Slams). So he was not stopped by "younger ATGs", he simply didn't have the longevity of Novak (2 Slams and 3 Slam finals won aged 36).
 
Third Serve said:
Soderling was every bit as good as in the 2009 4R in that QF, if not even better. A great match all in all, and Federer did well although not too well. By level I’d take Stan.

Fed did hit godmode in the first set—one of his best on clay imo—but it’s more than counteracted by the tame showing he put into the last few. Major credit to Soderling for not wilting after withstanding that beating in the first though.
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That match is sick one of the most slept on bangers of the big 3 era
 
Kralingen said:
The truth is being the youngest of the Big 3 was always the golden ticket in the Slam race.
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Fed was not there to capitalize when the field was weak the earliest years of his career. Bad for him; he could still be leading the race.
Nadal is just 1 year older. His problem's been his body that came wrecked eve before turning pro.
Also, Djokovic's slow age decline is an outlier.
 
The Guru said:
Djokovic is just like a super Murray who would lose to anyone decent if anyone decent ever existed.
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do you think that prime to prime Djokovic is a matchup issue for Nadal? and any thoughts on the divergence in Murray's results vs Djokovic in faster conditions and vs Nadal?
 
ppma said:
Fed was not there to capitalize when the field was weak the earliest years of his career. Bad for him; he could still be leading the race.
Nadal is just 1 year older. His problem's been his body that came wrecked eve before turning pro.
Also, Djokovic's slow age decline is an outlier.
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Djokovic himself failed to capitalize in several years.
 
RS said:
Who played at a higher level?

1. Federer USO 09 SF or Federer Wim 09 final
2. Federer RG 09 SF or Djokovic USO 15 final
3. Nadal RG 18 final or Federer USO 09 final
4. Djokovic USO 10 final or Djokovic RG 15 final
5. Federer USO 07 final or Federer Wim 04 final
6. Nadal USO 13 final or Federer Wim 09 final
7. Nadal RG 14 final or Nadal Wim 07 final
Click to expand...
 
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sportsfan1 said:
The most striking fact is how often a 6 year older fed past his prime pushed Djokovic. As shown by stats and Djokovic himself said, fed was the better player in quite a few of those matches.
That alone is enough to conclude if the ages were reversed, fed would clean up Djokovic. People forget the dominance and game of peak fed as it's been a long time.
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bingo. djokovic case is based purely on his wins vs tsitipas, norrie, berretini, kyrgios, tommy paul, shelton etc. wins over these clowns do not elevate him above fedal.
 
fedfan24 said:
bingo. djokovic case is based purely on his wins vs tsitipas, norrie, berretini, kyrgios, tommy paul, shelton etc. wins over these clowns do not elevate him above fedal.
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That's it. If Federer was now the age of Djokovic and the later was already retired, Fed would be vulturing on the same clowns, but of course with much more elegance.
 
I expect 2024-2027 Djokovic will do better than 2018-2021 Fed by a large margin that competition will not really matter too much but this hasn't happened yet.
 
ElisRF said:
I expect 2024-2027 Djokovic will do better than 2018-2021 Fed by a large margin that competition will not really matter too much but this hasn't happened yet.
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2018-2021 fed is still a 3 slam winner with mug competition so Djokovic will need 4+ to surpass him.
 
Angrybirdstar said:
do you think that prime to prime Djokovic is a matchup issue for Nadal? and any thoughts on the divergence in Murray's results vs Djokovic in faster conditions and vs Nadal?
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Sorry I didn't mean to imply that I agree with that position if that's what you though. I think Djokovic is obviously not someone who's reliant on poor opposition to win big titles and is fully capable of beating great opposition at their best like Nadal.
 
The Guru said:
Sorry I didn't mean to imply that I agree with that position if that's what you though. I think Djokovic is obviously not someone who's reliant on poor opposition to win big titles and is fully capable of beating great opposition at their best like Nadal.
Click to expand...
oh i'm not asking those questions for any agenda of mine or yours. the facetious snippet that i quoted just sparked some questions that i'd been considering and i was curious to hear your thoughts specifically, because i've mostly seen you talk about Djokovic in relation to Federer (one of the first posts i saw from you was the Wimbly '09 duo thread with Third Serve). perhaps better if i just tagged you but thought it might be weirder
 
The Guru said:
Sorry I didn't mean to imply that I agree with that position if that's what you though. I think Djokovic is obviously not someone who's reliant on poor opposition to win big titles and is fully capable of beating great opposition at their best like Nadal.
Click to expand...

It's not like he was beating them at their best (for the most part), is it?
 
Who played at a higher level?

1. Ferrero RG 2003 final or Djokovic Wim 2018 SF
2. Djokovic Miami 2011 final or Federer Wim 2004 final
3. Kyrgios Miami 2017 SF or Djokovic RG 2021 SF
4. Federer USO 2005 final or Federer Wim 2007 final
5. Federer USO 2005 SF or Federer RG 2011 SF
6. Nadal RG 22 final or Agassi USO 04 QF
7. Federer AO 13 QF or Nadal Wim 06 final
 
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