Throwing a ball to strengthen serve

raiden031

Legend
I was wondering if throwing a ball overhand will help to strengthen the shoulder for a more powerful serve. The logic to me is that it is a similar motion to serving. I am one that never played baseball and haven't really played catch in years. So when I throw a ball its kind of difficult to get decent speed on the ball or accuracy. Would practicing so that I can throw faster and with better control help my serve be more powerful and have better directional control?
 

alan-n

Professional
You can improve it marginally yes. When it comes to fast twitch muscles which generate speed... Unlike strength, you'll find that limit very fast. On a side note, many people take up football or soccer in America to improve footwork and just as important, balance.
 

LuckyR

Legend
I was wondering if throwing a ball overhand will help to strengthen the shoulder for a more powerful serve. The logic to me is that it is a similar motion to serving. I am one that never played baseball and haven't really played catch in years. So when I throw a ball its kind of difficult to get decent speed on the ball or accuracy. Would practicing so that I can throw faster and with better control help my serve be more powerful and have better directional control?


No, I don't think it will help much with speed, but those of us who threw a lot of stuff (baseballs, dirt clods, rocks etc) as kids growing up, I feel have an advantage in accuracy. So I would recommend it for that reason.
 

tennismike33

Semi-Pro
As an expert rock thrower it has done nothing for me. The reason is I throw rocks right handed and play tennis left handed. I looked goofy throwing with my left hand.

As a side bar, one thing that I have found to help endurance and strength is the heavy ball. Weighted at 9lbs, throwing it using the same serve motion has helped.
 

federer_nadal

Professional
I remember seeing a picture on here of i think it was Jonas Bjorkman throwing a baseball around on the court, and the person who posted it said that it was a great way to strengthen and warm up those muscles. I also saw a pro or 2 throwing baseballs around when i was at the AO this year.
 
When I see someone with an awkward serving motion, I imagine this person didn't grow up throwing baseballs and footballs. The serve doesn't come as naturally. So I'm not sure how throwing so late in the game, so to speak, can benefit someone who didn't grow up throwing. It's like going backwards. Let's say I was a cyclist. They say there are correlations between cycling and speed skating (although I don't see them. That's what they say. Eric Heiden, for example). I'm not going to teach myself to speed skate simply to improve my cycling. Suddenly it's two things I have to work at.
 
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Trinity TC

Semi-Pro
You can improve your throwing technique by throwing an 8" mini basketball. It is moderately heavy and can be gripped in one hand quite easily. It mimics the racquet swing quite well and you can feel and correct mechanical flaws because of the weight.
 
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ipodtennispro

Guest
Throwing Motion

Below is a great clip of why the throwing motion is important for the serve. Just get a baseball glove and a ball (and a partner)and go to a park and it will do wonders for your serve. Ben Kibler, MD is an expert in the field. He advocates reproducing the baseball throw. However, internationally the (Baseball motion) is not that well accepted because in many European countries and South America and basically all over the world they don't play baseball or American football so these concepts are questioned by them. I work with a lot of young children and I find the boys have an advantage on the service motion because they learn to throw much earlier than the girls.

View the clip
http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/Ben Kilbler.dv.m4v

ipodtennispros.com
 

raiden031

Legend
When I see someone with an awkward serving motion, I imagine this person didn't grow up throwing baseballs and footballs. The serve doesn't come as naturally. So I'm not sure how throwing so late in the game, so to speak, can benefit someone who didn't grow up throwing. It's like going backwards. Let's say I was a cyclist. They say there are correlations between cycling and speed skating (although I don't see them. That's what they say. Eric Heiden, for example). I'm not going to teach myself to speed skate simply to improve my cycling. Suddenly it's two things I have to work at.

I picked up the serve motion pretty easily since I have always had the coordination to throw (meaning I don't throw like a girl). In fact I played pick-up ball in the neighborhood as a kid, but its just been a long time.
I can hit the ball (serving) as hard as I can and still don't get the power I feel I should get. Now when I throw a ball I also have mediocre speed. I wonder if improving my throwing speed will also improve my racquet head speed when serving.
 
I picked up the serve motion pretty easily since I have always had the coordination to throw (meaning I don't throw like a girl). In fact I played pick-up ball in the neighborhood as a kid, but its just been a long time.
I can hit the ball (serving) as hard as I can and still don't get the power I feel I should get. Now when I throw a ball I also have mediocre speed. I wonder if improving my throwing speed will also improve my racquet head speed when serving.

I actually had a similar experience. I played a lot of football and baseball growing up. Threw for hours at a time. And so when I hit my first tennis serve ... as an adult picking up the game ... the serve came easily. Too easily because I had to refrain from relying on hard flat serves. Anyway, a few months ago, after playing tennis, I was walking across a baseball field to get home. I spotted a baseball on the field and picked it up and just for kicks threw off the mound. It had nothing on it. It kind of floated up there ... hitting the backstop. Maybe my arm just wasn't used to it.

They say that while the serve and the throwing motion are similar, throwing a football as opposed to throwing a baseball is even more similar to a tennis serve. Although I don't know why.
 

Trinity TC

Semi-Pro
A football has more weight to it than a baseball so the tempo and timing of the arm acceleration is similar to the tennis serve. I have students play catch with a mini basketball because it has the extra weight load, swing resistance and is easier for women to grip than a football. Throwing a spiral is also not critical. Most women reach a roadblock when using the football throw to replicate a tennis serve because they get discouraged when they can't throw a spiral. Teaching the concept of pronation and a smooth follow through comes easier and faster with the mini basketball too.
 
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ipodtennispro

Guest
Throwing Motion

I actually had a similar experience. I played a lot of football and baseball growing up. Threw for hours at a time. And so when I hit my first tennis serve ... as an adult picking up the game ... the serve came easily. Too easily because I had to refrain from relying on hard flat serves. Anyway, a few months ago, after playing tennis, I was walking across a baseball field to get home. I spotted a baseball on the field and picked it up and just for kicks threw off the mound. It had nothing on it. It kind of floated up there ... hitting the backstop. Maybe my arm just wasn't used to it.

They say that while the serve and the throwing motion are similar, throwing a football as opposed to throwing a baseball is even more similar to a tennis serve. Although I don't know why.

Because the baseball pitch comes off an elevated mound and your throwing more in a downward motion, whereas, with a football throw you have to throw more upwards, especially long throws. Same as the serve, you have to hit "up" on the ball. Football throwing is simpler in the motion too and it is a more heavier so some people prefer that. Do not throw tennis balls too hard, they can throw out your shoulder. Your throwing motion should stay just under the "getting injured" stage. That means don't crank it up, that's when people serve too hard and they get hurt.

Either way is good, as they say "Your serve is only as good as your throwing motion". If you can stand on the baseline and throw the ball over the far fence you probably can serve pretty well.


ipodtennispros.com
 
I pitched through college and just recently started playing tennis. The motion is similiar however you better make sure you do it correctly or you can screw up your arm fast. Tom House the old pitching coach for the Texas Rangers advocated throwing a football with his pitchers. The biggest reason for using a football is that for the most part to throw a football correctly meaning in a spiral your mechanics will be correct. DO NOT USE TENNIS BALLS TO PRACTICE THROWING you will mess up your arm in no time because tennis balls are too light. To get to the strength question you certainly will increase stamina strength by throwing but probably not much actual arm strength. Most pitchers do not have necessarily strong arms they have strong cores, big butts and tons of leg strength. Pitchers generate almost all there speed and strength below the belt not above it.
 
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ipodtennispro

Guest
Throwing Motion

I pitched through college and just recently started playing tennis. The motion is similiar however you better make sure you do it correctly or you can screw up your arm fast. Tom House the old pitching coach for the Texas Rangers advocated throwing a football with his pitchers. The biggest reason for using a football is that for the most part to throw a football correctly meaning in a spiral your mechanics will be correct. DO NOT USE TENNIS BALLS TO PRACTICE THROWING you will mess up your arm in no time because tennis balls are too light. To get to the strength question you certainly will increase stamina strength by throwing but probably not much actual arm strength. Most pitchers do not have necessarily strong arms they have strong cores, big butts and tons of leg strength. Pitchers generate almost all there speed and strength below the belt not above it.


I love to hear from baseball pitchers. In the video above that I posted the man at the end of the video was a baseball pitcher in high school and played college tennis and even a few futures tournament. I like the last line in that you say "Pitchers generate almost thier speed and strength from below the belt and not above." This helps my argument that the motion starts somewhere the feet and then through the hips which some people just don't get. Since I never played baseball, can you explain how that saying came about as I would like to make a video about this concept (and give you credit) and post it as a podcast on the Apple iTunes Music store where I post all my videos. Do you have a progression exercise?

ipodtennispros.com
lcouillard@mac.com
 
I love to hear from baseball pitchers. In the video above that I posted the man at the end of the video was a baseball pitcher in high school and played college tennis and even a few futures tournament. I like the last line in that you say "Pitchers generate almost thier speed and strength from below the belt and not above." This helps my argument that the motion starts somewhere the feet and then through the hips which some people just don't get. Since I never played baseball, can you explain how that saying came about as I would like to make a video about this concept (and give you credit) and post it as a podcast on the Apple iTunes Music store where I post all my videos. Do you have a progression exercise?

ipodtennispros.com
lcouillard@mac.com

I will do my best to explain. The arm motion of a tennis serve and pitching a baseball is very similiar the rest is different. Of course I am far from a tennis expert I am just starting so my understanding of a good tennis serve (something I am still trying to obtain) may be very incorrect. Anyway to try to answer your question there are 2 types of pitching motions the windup and the stretch. The windup is used when there are no runners on base the stretch when there are base runners. I would say the stretch correlates best to a tennis serve since you start standing at 90 degrees to home plate like in a tennis serve. In the windup you start facing homeplate and I do not recall ever seeing a tennis player start thier serve facing thier opponent. When the pitcher goes to throw the ball he uses his core, butt and legs to drive/push toward homeplate and generate as much power as possible (at least most pitchers their are some pitchers that are called junkballers that throw very softly but use guile and trickery to succeed and these guys are often very good, in the hall of fame and everything). The pitching mound has a little trench dug out in front of the rubber (the white plastic thing on top of a pitching mound) and the pitcher will push off the back of this trench to generate his power. Usually the pitcher wants to keep his arm back (if he does not it is called short arming) and when the power generated to go forward shifts to the core the pitcher twists to face homeplate and basically this twisting action is acting like a transmission from the power generated below the belt to whip the core and upper body around. This whipping motion occurs and the arm follows it and acts like an extension of the whip. If a pitcher wants to throw a curve or slider etc... it is mostly in the wrist and follow through right before the release. In tennis my understanding is that this same core whip action is desired but often some of the energy produced is used to go up (ie jump) and some to go forward. Also a tennis serve is much more violent on the arm than throwing a ball. While throwing a ball is unnatural and really not good for any arm and tennis serve I would believe is worse because right at the most awkward part of the arm throwing/swing motion you hit a stationary object thus creating resistence and vibration. Also remember there is a big difference between pitching from the stretch and how a fielder would throw a ball (or how you and I would play catch). The arm basics are the same however the footwork is different. I am not sure if this is what you are looking for it is difficult for me because while I know the baseball side of stuff I am very green on the tennis stuff. Also remember opinions and ideas on how to throw a baseball correctly are like armpits everyone has one or 2 and they usually stink. lol If you are truly interested in getting details ask a few baseball coachs in your area (HS or college). These guys love baseball and will gladly talk about anything baseball to just about anyone who will listen. I hope this helps if not lmk I can try my best to answer what you are looking for.
 
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ipodtennispro

Guest
Throwing Motion

I will do my best to explain. The arm motion of a tennis serve and pitching a baseball is very similiar the rest is different. Of course I am far from a tennis expert I am just starting so my understanding of a good tennis serve (something I am still trying to obtain) may be very incorrect. Anyway to try to answer your question there are 2 types of pitching motions the windup and the stretch. The windup is used when there are no runners on base the stretch when there are base runners. I would say the stretch correlates best to a tennis serve since you start standing at 90 degrees to home plate like in a tennis serve. In the windup you start facing homeplate and I do not recall ever seeing a tennis player start thier serve facing thier opponent. When the pitcher goes to throw the ball he uses his core, butt and legs to drive/push toward homeplate and generate as much power as possible (at least most pitchers their are some pitchers that are called junkballers that throw very softly but use guile and trickery to succeed and these guys are often very good, in the hall of fame and everything). The pitching mound has a little trench dug out in front of the rubber (the white plastic thing on top of a pitching mound) and the pitcher will push off the back of this trench to generate his power. Usually the pitcher wants to keep his arm back (if he does not it is called short arming) and when the power generated to go forward shifts to the core the pitcher twists to face homeplate and basically this twisting action is acting like a transmission from the power generated below the belt to whip the core and upper body around. This whipping motion occurs and the arm follows it and acts like an extension of the whip. If a pitcher wants to throw a curve or slider etc... it is mostly in the wrist and follow through right before the release. In tennis my understanding is that this same core whip action is desired but often some of the energy produced is used to go up (ie jump) and some to go forward. Also a tennis serve is much more violent on the arm than throwing a ball. While throwing a ball is unnatural and really not good for any arm and tennis serve I would believe is worse because right at the most awkward part of the arm throwing/swing motion you hit a stationary object thus creating resistence and vibration. Also remember there is a big difference between pitching from the stretch and how a fielder would throw a ball (or how you and I would play catch). The arm basics are the same however the footwork is different. I am not sure if this is what you are looking for it is difficult for me because while I know the baseball side of stuff I am very green on the tennis stuff. Also remember opinions and ideas on how to throw a baseball correctly are like armpits everyone has one or 2 and they usually stink. lol If you are truly interested in getting details ask a few baseball coachs in your area (HS or college). These guys love baseball and will gladly talk about anything baseball to just about anyone who will listen. I hope this helps if not lmk I can try my best to answer what you are looking for.

That is very clear. I also like the Whip action explanation, however, I never tell my students to jump on the serve. They should naturally propell off the ground. I am not an expert but the expert I listened to(Dr. Ben Kibler) wants the back leg to drop and then uncoil like you say and propell up in the air.

So, I will go ahead with the video. What I am going to do is cut off all the pros I video taped at the US Open at the waist and call hit "Below the Belt" and we will just concentrate on what's happening below the waist. I like to give credit where credit is due. With your permission I can use your alias name "Spectraflamed" from TW or your real name. You can email your name if you don't want to post it here. If I don't hear from you I will go ahead with the video without posting your name. I appreciate the "Tip" . Coming from someone who is not a tennis player is even better. I surf this site looking for new ideas and waste a lot of my time, however, this was a great find. Look for the video in the next week on the iTunes music store pocast "Tennis Pod Pro Videos" or on ipodtennispros.com
Thanks!!
 

Duzza

Legend
I was wondering if throwing a ball overhand will help to strengthen the shoulder for a more powerful serve. The logic to me is that it is a similar motion to serving. I am one that never played baseball and haven't really played catch in years. So when I throw a ball its kind of difficult to get decent speed on the ball or accuracy. Would practicing so that I can throw faster and with better control help my serve be more powerful and have better directional control?

I find throwing a bit more jerky cause of the weight difference.
 
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ipodtennispro

Guest
Strengthening serve

i don't see how throwing a ball will strengthen your serve sorry.

I think this thread is more about having a correct motion first. Because if you don't have that correct from the start, it won't matter how many shoulder excercises you do. If your looking for shoulder excercises to strengthen the rotator you can find them on a quick google search. But you have a valid point.

ipodtennispros.com
 

thejackal

Hall of Fame
I like throwing a foam football around after practice just to loosen my arm up. also, try throwing old tennis balls from the baseline over the fence. it won't go over if you muscle your swing too much, so that could help.
 

Bagumbawalla

Talk Tennis Guru
One thing you can try to strengthen the muscles involved in serving, is the "upside-down-crabwalk".

Lay on your back. Push up with your arms and legs, and "walk" yourself across the floor or mat. Take it slow at first. Don't even try is you have back problems.
 

Nick Irons

Semi-Pro
One thing you can try to strengthen the muscles involved in serving, is the "upside-down-crabwalk".

Lay on your back. Push up with your arms and legs, and "walk" yourself across the floor or mat. Take it slow at first. Don't even try is you have back problems.

Like this you mean ? :p

Exorcist%20Version%202%20SpiderWalk.jpg
 

fearless1

Rookie
I've thrown lots of footballs over the years just for fun or to help my football player friends with practice. Did all this football throwing help with bombing serves? Nah, I don't think so although it certainly didn't help. Although the throwing and service motions are very similar, the workloads and muscles used in the arm and shoulder aren't the same. If one wants to throw balls around, do it for the recreational or enjoyment sake of that activity.

For developing serves, there are better ways to train. A couple quick methods that come to mind:

...practice serves with racquets that are MUCh heavier than the player is generally accustomed to;

...practice the service motion with things like baseball bats.

etc.

Core training (abs and back) also good for serves.
 
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