Throwing Like a Girl... Fixes? Cures?

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
First off. Many will find the phrase, "throw like a girl" to be derogatory or even offensive. But, even tho the gender gap has diminished quite a bit in many/most areas, overhead throwing mechanics continues to be one area where the gap persists.

Girls who have been taught to throw at a young age will often develop very decent overhand throwing mechanics. But if that optimal WOO (window of opportunity) is missed, it can be very difficult to correct flawed throwing mechanics later.

I've had success correcting the mechanics of some teen and pre-teen girls. But incorrect technique or bad habits appears to be so ingrained with some girls, correcting those flaws seems to be insurmountable.

Any sure-fire fixes out there?

I currently have a couple of 12 year old girls who can spin their serve in most of the time. But they are lacking power or RHS because of sub-optimal throwing mechanics. They may never develop that power/RHS unless they are able to correct those flawed mechanics.

The primary issue with these two is the position/motion of the elbow. In one case, the elbow drops (tucks in) just before the forward motion commences. In the other case, the elbow comes forward much too soon -- as if she was throwing darts rather than throwing a ball.

At my wits end. Have repeatedly gone over proper throwing mechanics. We've spent time throwing tennis balls, footballs and even rackets. Have tried elbow awareness (proprioception) exercises --with eyes open and with eyes closed. But the problem persists.

Any other ideas (that don't involve time travel)?
.
 
I wonder if women's softball coaches would be a good resource on this. I'd think that at least the outfielders would normally throw the ball with good mechanics. At least where I live, the best female athletes are playing softball or basketball.
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
I have a strong arm and shoulder. To me, one of the worst things you can do to your shoulder is throw a tennis ball. Its too light. Everytime I've ever thrown one my shoulder pinched and hurt. You need more weight and resistance in the hand when you throw. So 3/4 size footballs, baseballs maybe lacrosse balls.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
First off. Many will find the phrase, "throw like a girl" to be derogatory or even offensive. But, even tho the gender gap has diminished quite a bit in many/most areas, overhead throwing mechanics continues to be one area where the gap persists.

Girls who have been taught to throw at a young age will often develop very decent overhand throwing mechanics. But if that optimal WOO (window of opportunity) is missed, it can be very difficult to correct flawed throwing mechanics later.

I've had success correcting the mechanics of some teen and pre-teen girls. But incorrect technique or bad habits appears to be so ingrained with some girls, correcting those flaws seems to be insurmountable.

Any sure-fire fixes out there?

I currently have a couple of 12 year old girls who can spin their serve in most of the time. But they are lacking power or RHS because of sub-optimal throwing mechanics. They may never develop that power/RHS unless they are able to correct those flawed mechanics.

The primary issue with these two is the position/motion of the elbow. In one case, the elbow drops (tucks in) just before the forward motion commences. In the other case, the elbow comes forward much too soon -- as if she was throwing darts rather than throwing a ball.

At my wits end. Have repeatedly gone over proper throwing mechanics. We've spent time throwing tennis balls, footballs and even rackets. Have tried elbow awareness (proprioception) exercises --with eyes open and with eyes closed. But the problem persists.

Any other ideas (that don't involve time travel)?
.
hehe, i have 2 girls i'm teaching now (14,15)... one has excellent throwing mechanics,... the other, very poor.
we've been spending quite a bit of time just throwing a junior football, and weighted objects...
basically started slow, and repeat, correct, repeat, correct, etc.. slow down again if necessary...
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I have a strong arm and shoulder. To me, one of the worst things you can do to your shoulder is throw a tennis ball. Its too light. Everytime I've ever thrown one my shoulder pinched and hurt. You need more weight and resistance in the hand when you throw. So 3/4 size footballs, baseballs maybe lacrosse balls.
agreed, tennis ball is too light. i use junior football, and lax ball (since i have one in my bag all the time for rolling muscles)... only issue is that they can only throw to me (or fence) at any distance (their catching is not so good either :p)
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I have a strong arm and shoulder. To me, one of the worst things you can do to your shoulder is throw a tennis ball. Its too light. Everytime I've ever thrown one my shoulder pinched and hurt. You need more weight and resistance in the hand when you throw. So 3/4 size footballs, baseballs maybe lacrosse balls.

I like the lacrosse ball idea.
.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Baby step. Have them throw a very compact motion. Kinda like with wrist and forearm only, then gradually increase.

I doubt if they cannot do an action, especially at young age. It's usually the issue with instruction and comprehension.
100% agree that it's a movement that can be learned.
as young boys we're doing it all the time, as sports is the #1 way we socialize.
with girls... unless they are on a sports team or played sports (ie. catch) with dad/mom, their mechanics are terrible.
i've taught guys (rare) that have terrible throwing mechanics as well (think geeky guy, who you know always got picked last in gym class)... so not a girl/guy thing.
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
Also get the whole body moving, I never throw standing facing forward or without legs spread out say double shoulder width. So throw off back foot pushing off onto front foot facing sideways, head should face forward and never move, neck locked, shoulder upper torso rotate around horizontal plane with back shoulder dipping slightly down on loadup phase.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Serving is not completely about throwing a ball. Many men in the US can throw pretty well, having worked on it in football in childhood, but can't serve even at the level of a middle school girl. Serving, like bowling in cricket, requires a throwing action combined with an overhand action which produces shoulder over shoulder rotation. The only men who do well in serve with a throwing motion are those who are short, like under 5'4" - the ball goes on an upward trajectory and then drops in. For taller men, the overhand motion is required to bring the ball in.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Throwing Like a Girl... Fixes? Cures?
First question I'd ask myself is "how badly do my female students REALLY want to learn throwing mechanics / how to serve"?

Not a PC question to ask, but one that will save you lots of frustration and lots of anger from them.

In other words, don't be "that guy" in mixed doubles that is filled with great tips for the ladies. Yes, you are well intentioned. But no, women don't always "appreciate" such advice (and they really don't appreciate it over and over and in a tone that suggests "why can't you do this?"). As much as it's frowned upon to say openly these days, girls really are girls. They aren't boys. They won't do things like boys. They don't care about the same things boys do. They don't care as much about sports as boys will.

Anyway, good luck.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
^^^ good thing you are not a coach nor a high level player.

Yesterday, a high school was throwing a football for 15 minutes with her father before starting tennis.
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
First question I'd ask myself is "how badly do my female students REALLY want to learn throwing mechanics / how to serve"?

Not a PC question to ask, but one that will save you lots of frustration and lots of anger from them.

In other words, don't be "that guy" in mixed doubles that is filled with great tips for the ladies. Yes, you are well intentioned. But no, women don't always "appreciate" such advice (and they really don't appreciate it over and over and in a tone that suggests "why can't you do this?"). As much as it's frowned upon to say openly these days, girls really are girls. They aren't boys. They won't do things like boys. They don't care about the same things boys do. They don't care as much about sports as boys will.

Anyway, good luck.
Funny sometimes I get the feeling wta players really care about sports, never noticed they care less than (all) boys. The way you say it
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
^^^ good thing you are not a coach nor a high level player.

Yesterday, a high school was throwing a football for 15 minutes with her father before starting tennis.
Funny sometimes I get the feeling wta players really care about sports, never noticed they care less than (all) boys. The way you say it
(I like how you take my comment which is obviously meant to be an "aggregate" comment and turn it into one dealing with individuals. It's a great rhetorical move and I commend you for it. I am appropriately ashamed of my comments.)

Yes, yes, you guys are right. Don't know what I was saying. Must have lost my head for a bit. Thanks for getting me back in line. I promise I'll never stray from the accepted, articulated party line again.

Again, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you.
 
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Dan R

Professional
Here's something to try. Start having them hit (or throw) underhand. It's not that well known but underhand softball pitchers pronate too. From there have them move up to a more and more side arm motion, and then just keep moving up until they are hitting it overhead - just make sure they are pronating along the way. I think it's important for someone when learning this to start choking way up on the grip. Often when people are trying to pronate they can't get the racket on the ball at all, and so they are afraid to really go for it, and it is hard at first. This way they will have some control. I've seen instructors have people use a little kids racket for this as well. Just start with half swings


The other option would be to get them a wrist brace that prevents the wrist from extending backward, and have them practice with that. That way they can't hit a waiters tray serve.

One other way I've seen instructors teach pronation is to have the person drop a ball and then hit it down into the ground and behind them. They just swing down and behind them and try and slam the ball into the ground. It's pretty much impossible not to pronote doing this and it's actually pretty easy to do. This can help teach them the feel of the proper motion.

I was talking to one instructor and he said it's harder for girls to learn to serve because they just don't grow up throwing things like boys do. Boys through rocks, baseballs, footballs and they learn to do this over time - they learn effortlessly. A lot of girls don't and so he has the girls serve more than the boys when they first start learning at 5 or 6.

It's funny that humans can throw overhand way better than any animal on earth. So, we've clearly evolved to do this, but it still has to be taught. Not many people stumble on to it all by themselves.
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
Yes, yes, you guys are right. Don't know what I was saying. Must have lost my head for a bit. Thanks for getting me back in line. I promise I'll never stray from the accepted, articulated party line again.

Again, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you.
Np just that some boys don't care, some girls don't care, some boys care some girls care. Did I leave anyone out?
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I think one of the key issues with women throwing is the lack of shoulder turn. They like to face the person they are throwing at. The greatest thing you can do is get them to concentrate on their non-throwing arm. Force them on serve to hold the tossing arm up until the last moment. That will force a shoulder turn and allow them to incorporate turning the body into the motion.

If throwing footballs, make them throw like a QB. The means holding the ball by the ear and patting the ball a couple times with the non-throwing arm. The reason QB's are taught to do this is it forces the body turn and elbow position to make a strong throw. Do not let them throw a football without a couple pats of the ball first.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Np just that some boys don't care, some girls don't care, some boys care some girls care. Did I leave anyone out?
(I like how you take my comment which is obviously meant to be an "aggregate" comment and turn it into one dealing with individuals. It's a great rhetorical move and I commend you for it. I am appropriately ashamed of my comments.)

Oh, so well done. So well done.

Again, I will never make such a comment again. I've been schooled. And I thank you for the education.

PS: I am writing these words on my knees with tears in my eyes due to my shame.
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
(I like how you take my comment which is obviously meant to be an "aggregate" comment and turn it into one dealing with individuals. It's a great rhetorical move and I commend you for it. I am appropriately ashamed of my comments.)

Oh, so well done. So well done.

Again, I will never make such a comment again. I've been schooled. And I thank you for the education.

PS: I am writing these words on my knees with tears in my eyes due to my shame.
Your giving me too much credit, I just apply the calculus to any generalizations/stereotypes. English not my strongpoint.
 

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
If throwing like a girl is so bad, have a guy throw with his off arm. And no Dual Hand Luke jokes
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
First off. Many will find the phrase, "throw like a girl" to be derogatory or even offensive. But, even tho the gender gap has diminished quite a bit in many/most areas, overhead throwing mechanics continues to be one area where the gap persists.

Girls who have been taught to throw at a young age will often develop very decent overhand throwing mechanics. But if that optimal WOO (window of opportunity) is missed, it can be very difficult to correct flawed throwing mechanics later.

I've had success correcting the mechanics of some teen and pre-teen girls. But incorrect technique or bad habits appears to be so ingrained with some girls, correcting those flaws seems to be insurmountable.

Any sure-fire fixes out there?

I currently have a couple of 12 year old girls who can spin their serve in most of the time. But they are lacking power or RHS because of sub-optimal throwing mechanics. They may never develop that power/RHS unless they are able to correct those flawed mechanics.

The primary issue with these two is the position/motion of the elbow. In one case, the elbow drops (tucks in) just before the forward motion commences. In the other case, the elbow comes forward much too soon -- as if she was throwing darts rather than throwing a ball.

At my wits end. Have repeatedly gone over proper throwing mechanics. We've spent time throwing tennis balls, footballs and even rackets. Have tried elbow awareness (proprioception) exercises --with eyes open and with eyes closed. But the problem persists.

Any other ideas (that don't involve time travel)?
.

Offer free shoes if they throw good. ;)
 
Get Austin wasserman's book high level throwing. It has some great drills.

Wouldn't prioritize with adult players, but for kids it is definitely worth spending two months on a good throwing pattern.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I was talking to one instructor and he said it's harder for girls to learn to serve because they just don't grow up throwing things like boys do. Boys through rocks, baseballs, footballs and they learn to do this over time - they learn effortlessly. A lot of girls don't and so he has the girls serve more than the boys when they first start learning at 5 or 6.

Helps greatly to have played throwing sports at age 5. I suspect it might be too late for many at age 12 with no throwing experience. It might be like trying to teach an adult to throw lefty.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Serving is not completely about throwing a ball. Many men in the US can throw pretty well, having worked on it in football in childhood, but can't serve even at the level of a middle school girl. Serving, like bowling in cricket, requires a throwing action combined with an overhand action which produces shoulder over shoulder rotation. The only men who do well in serve with a throwing motion are those who are short, like under 5'4" - the ball goes on an upward trajectory and then drops in. For taller men, the overhand motion is required to bring the ball in.

No. Just The opposite. The shorter guys need more of the shoulder-over-shoulder motion to topspin the ball in. Taller players can hit flatter into the box.
 

Ronaldo

Bionic Poster
Helps greatly to have played throwing sports at age 5. I suspect it might be too late for many at age 12 with no throwing experience. It might be like trying to teach an adult to throw lefty.
My nieces' played flag football at 4 and softball now. Throw everyday. IMHO badminton really improves the serving motion.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
This girl has a decent football throwing motion, good spiral too!! 49ers are looking for a QB, sign her up!!!:p

Hot and can toss the football with you? And probably knock down a few brewskis afterwards? This girl doesn't exist, it's a computer generated image.
 

NLBwell

Legend
Np just that some boys don't care, some girls don't care, some boys care some girls care. Did I leave anyone out?
You forgot the other sixty-nine genders. You have committed an unpardonable act of hatred. I demand tens of thousands of twitter messages be sent to you about how horrible you are since you are obviously queer-trans-questioning-****-phobic. You should be fired from your job and never be able to get another one. You should be spit upon in public for such blatant hatred and your house should be picketed. Anyone who has such a tremendous amount of hatred in their heart toward sixty-nine groups of people should be sent to a gulag!
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
First off. Many will find the phrase, "throw like a girl" to be derogatory or even offensive. But, even tho the gender gap has diminished quite a bit in many/most areas, overhead throwing mechanics continues to be one area where the gap persists.

Girls who have been taught to throw at a young age will often develop very decent overhand throwing mechanics. But if that optimal WOO (window of opportunity) is missed, it can be very difficult to correct flawed throwing mechanics later.

I've had success correcting the mechanics of some teen and pre-teen girls. But incorrect technique or bad habits appears to be so ingrained with some girls, correcting those flaws seems to be insurmountable.

Any sure-fire fixes out there?

I currently have a couple of 12 year old girls who can spin their serve in most of the time. But they are lacking power or RHS because of sub-optimal throwing mechanics. They may never develop that power/RHS unless they are able to correct those flawed mechanics.

The primary issue with these two is the position/motion of the elbow. In one case, the elbow drops (tucks in) just before the forward motion commences. In the other case, the elbow comes forward much too soon -- as if she was throwing darts rather than throwing a ball.

At my wits end. Have repeatedly gone over proper throwing mechanics. We've spent time throwing tennis balls, footballs and even rackets. Have tried elbow awareness (proprioception) exercises --with eyes open and with eyes closed. But the problem persists.

Any other ideas (that don't involve time travel)?
.

Florian Meier has a great video [which I can't find since I don't know what keywords to use] where he put a bunch of balls in a plastic bag, tied up the bag, and then put it in a bigger plastic bag with long handles. He then had the student grab the handles and swing in a service like motion. In order to do it smoothly without hitting yourself in the head due to jerky motion, you have to swing it with a reasonable approximation to a serve.

Here's one example, although it's not the one I was hoping to find [the guy's motion isn't as full circular as I would like but it's the right idea]:


Another idea: video yourself throwing and compare with a video of her throwing so she at least understands what the differences are even if she can't fix them yet.

Then, guide her arm through the correct throwing path with proper elbow separation. Do that enough times and she will have the muscle feel for how to do it. Then let go and let her body take over. Sort like throwing with training wheels. The problem with just telling her to throw is that she doesn't know what the proper motion is supposed to feel like so her trying to do it full speed with no guidance is difficult. This way, you're making her follow a proscribed path, even if slowly at first.

Also, are you sure that her shoulder is bio-mechanically sound? Maybe she has some shoulder issue that limits her range of motion.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
A sexist and misogynistic thread.

Not at all... or only in your head. Not buying into this misread of the reality of the situation. This condemnation appears to be a misguided attempt to be PC. Tell me that these articles are also sexist. & misogynistic.

https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-09/fyi-do-men-and-women-throw-ball-differently

The New York Times (article)

Washington Post (Health & Science)

http://keyw.com/andrew-presents-his-research-on-why-girls-throw-differently
.
 

kramer woodie

Professional
Curious

Since when, is truth sexist or misogynistic? Only since the PC Culture! Is it possible you are being secretly funny? I am amazed at the number of
supposed young men who can't grasp the concept of standing perpendicular to the start of a throwing motion. Some might say they (young men?)
throw like girls.

Is it possible women are trying to turn men into girls. Sure seem to be the case when women get along better with a certain segment of the male
population.

Aloha
A sexist and misogynistic thread.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Yes it’s misogynistic. Very simple: what’s the difference between a girl and a boy who both suck at throwing?! Nothing. So, the problem is what to do/how to fix a person’s poor throwing motion?!
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
A sexist and misogynistic thread.

It's "sexist" in that it differentiates between the sexes. It's not misogynistic in that it's pointing out differences bio-mechanically between the sexes. It's no more misogynistic than saying "men are on average taller than women".

The title could have been neutral, though; like "how to fix inefficient throwing motions".
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
It's "sexist" in that it differentiates between the sexes. It's not misogynistic in that it's pointing out differences bio-mechanically between the sexes. It's no more misogynistic than saying "men are on average taller than women".

The title could have been neutral, though; like "how to fix inefficient throwing motions".

In case you missed my last post:

Yes it’s misogynistic. Very simple: what’s the difference between a girl and a boy who both suck at throwing?! Nothing. So, the problem is what to do/how to fix a person’s poor throwing motion?!
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
In case you missed my last post:

Yes it’s misogynistic. Very simple: what’s the difference between a girl and a boy who both suck at throwing?! Nothing. So, the problem is what to do/how to fix a person’s poor throwing motion?!

The title is a bit misogynistic [as I pointed out, there are neutral ways of expressing the same thing].

The thread, insofar as it concentrates on fixing the problem of inefficient throwing motions instead of the differences between boys and girls, is not.

For example, where in my post did I single out girls? I didn't. I explained how to fix an inefficient throwing motion. No mention of gender. I would have posted the same thing if the person in question was a boy.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
In case you missed my last post:

Yes it’s misogynistic. Very simple: what’s the difference between a girl and a boy who both suck at throwing?! Nothing. So, the problem is what to do/how to fix a person’s poor throwing motion?!

Clearly, you don't seem to comprehend what true misogyny is. None was intended here. In fact, I started the OP with a disclaimer about this very thing.

This is an observable phenomenon. Even a staunch feminist would not deny if she had observed this. If you've taught boys and girls, you would observe that trait holds true for the most part... Only a small % of pre-teen and teen girls have decent overhand throwing mechanics. OTOH, a majority of boys that have taken up tennis or other sports will have respectable throwing mechanics. A relatively small % will not. This can be seen by even a casual observer.

EDIT: I have taught serving mechanics to hundreds of teen/pre-teen boys as well as hundreds of teen/pre-teen girls. A small % of these boys needed to correct their throwing mechanics, usually just minor tweaking tho. A significant % of the girls needed to correct their mechanics; major changes often required.

Women in both psychology and sports science have used the phrase "throw like girl" in discussing this observed behavior. Did you even bother to read the links I provided?
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
The title is a bit misogynistic [as I pointed out, there are neutral ways of expressing the same thing].

The thread, insofar as it concentrates on fixing the problem of inefficient throwing motions instead of the differences between boys and girls, is not.

For example, where in my post did I single out girls? I didn't. I explained how to fix an inefficient throwing motion. No mention of gender. I would have posted the same thing if the person in question was a boy.
Yeah agreed. My point is that I don’t think girls have any deficiency in terms of muscle, coordination etc to perform a proper throwing motion compared to boys. Differences in power and speed is a different matter obviously, which is not clearly the topic of discussion in this thread hence my objection.
 
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