Throwing the Racquet Drill

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Raul_SJ, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    I am throwing the racquet.

    This drill is supposed to help waiter's tray error, approach on edge, improve racquet drop, etc

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
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    #1
  2. styksnstryngs

    styksnstryngs Professional

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    "supposed to"
     
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  3. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    I believe you must not throw it with serve motion. Just throw the most comfortable way. Then take this to your service motion.
     
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  4. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    Perhaps but I don't see a problem with incorporating a similar serve motion...

    In any case,
    I want to confirm that I don't have any serious Waiters Tray, opening up racquet prematurely at trophy position, in the throw above?
     
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  5. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Why would you ever have WT error if you know it's bad? Because it's the way your brain thinks of hitting the ball. You can easily bring this to the racquet throwing drill if you visualise and follow your current service motion. My opinion.

    You do have WT legacy in this racquet throw. You don't throw it edge-on. Do you go for "axe throw" or what?
     
    #5
  6. mcs1970

    mcs1970 Professional

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    I thought the throwing motion was supposed to simulate a throw? If so your shoulder would have rotated and your palm would be closer or even behind your right hip like a baseball pitcher. You are abruptly stopping your motion and forcing the throw. Also look at the 16:25 mark where Tomasz talks about the gaze and contrast it with what you're doing.

    BTW..personally I like the ball in the bag or sock drill more than the cue of throwing the racquet at the ball. The throwing cue is mainly for you to maintain a loose grip than anything else. For me, the ball in the bag/sock drill teaches me to be more mindful/appreciative of the racquet head role in your serve motion and how the whole point is to smoothly build up the momentum in the racquet head to effortlessly smack the ball.

     
    #6
  7. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    I don't see WT but I see other issues. Elbow too low at trophy, shallow drop ( racquet never gets perpendicular), you need to get the racquet more behind your back, your motion is too much sidearm. Maybe these are related to throwing it versus hitting an actual ball. Not a bad motion at all.
     
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  8. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    I think the throwing drill is to learn speeding up the racquet arm. That's it. It definitly doesn't cover the right-before and through the contact phase.
     
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  9. mcs1970

    mcs1970 Professional

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    Speeding up the correct way has to be the intent of any drill. You can't look at a serve drill as a piecemeal drill other than maybe if you're focusing exclusively on addressing any issues with the toss. If you're not focusing on the right-before or through the contact phase, IMO you're just building up some bad habits while feeling you're doing some valuable drill. Just abruptly stopping your arm as soon as you release the racquet, IMO, is missing the point of the 'throwing the racquet drill'.

    If you look at Tomasz' drill, he is speeding up, and yet he is also focusing on doing it the correct way. When he talks about the loop and how many lower players pause at the racquet drop than just drop enough to gain momentum and hit, he is showing how the whole point is to build up smooth momentum.
     
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  10. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Who said abruptly stopping? I didn’t. It’s just that following through with spare arm is different to holding accelerated pivoting 300-350+ SW racquet and guiding it through contact.

    Now not pausing at contact is exatly the way to properly accelerate into throw. Actually, only way for me to witness the drop is video. Never put my racquet into drop, just swing from the trophy and let the dynamics take care of racquet looping, dropping and stuff.
     
    #10
  11. Shroud

    Shroud G.O.A.T.

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    Yikes. Look at your grip. You shouldnt be choked up like that.

    See this at 2:00 min

     
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  12. mcs1970

    mcs1970 Professional

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    Based on what you're saying about your own serve, you're doing it the correct way. However, we differ on your description of this drill. IMO, throwing the racquet drill is not just about speeding of the arm...it's teaching speeding with a loose grip. You don't simulate that speed if you ignore the before and follow through phase. We'll just disagree on that.
     
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  13. S&V-not_dead_yet

    S&V-not_dead_yet Legend

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    I hope you didn't hit that bird.



     
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  14. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    It's more like I should think of what you say :rolleyes:
    I actually have a bit of trouble with the loose grip idea. I can have like one default serve with loose grip (some mild slice I guess). Other options require some racquet guidance, like delayed pronation for slice, a tad of closed structure for kick... Also the forearm-racquet angle thing. I dunno, I can imagine it's possible to swing in such a way for every serve that very loose wrist is not compromising the required posture. Like contact earlier through the swing for slice - before the ISR/pronation develops to the extent it is required for flatter serve. How you look at this?
     
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  15. mcs1970

    mcs1970 Professional

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    There are a lot of high level servers here. Many talk about different serves, ISR, pronation, serves for different occasions during a match. I can't do any of that stuff :). Though I've followed Tennis forever, I got more serious around 5 years ago. I didn't want to dink the ball in and so diligently went and practiced serves for an hour every day and still do when I get the chance. Trying to incorporate piecemeal instructions that I got here about ISR, pronation, throwing the racquet,..etc. just made my serve worse. The ball in the sock/bag drill is what I found really helped me the most. I have a consistent serve now, that opponents can't tee off on. I still can't do different on-demand serves. It doesn't matter. I wish I can blast serves at 120mph like Jolly or NYTA or TopSpin Shot do, but it is what it is. I'm happy with my service game.
     
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  16. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    I love this forum. :p I actually want to have the guy I am trying to help do this ... but I don't have a cr@p racquet for him to throw.
     
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  17. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    One of the main purposes of this drillI is to help those with poor drop. I will try it again and turn more and get the elbow more away from the body.

    I don't know if I will ever get forearm close to parallel on the drop. Maybe I don't have the flexibility.

    As for sidearm I think I am releasing around 1 o clock. Does not look too sidearm to me.

    Never tried the sock/bag. Maybe the sock drill is better for getting the elbow away?

    Some servers release first and then turn away. I want to turn the shoulders first and then release. Feels more comfortable to look at the toss release.
    But I will try to keep looking forward.

    I think I was choking up because it was an old racquet and the end of the grip was falling apart.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018 at 12:16 AM
    #17
  18. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    My only thought was "throw the racquet upwards for distance".


    The lower Red Arrow is 'Big L" position. Compare to racket throw.
    I think it is similar. Except for that position just before release. In a real serve, would still be holding on to racket till ball impact.
    Also notice on the racket throw that palm turns outwards to side fence ("full pronation") on the follow thru.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018 at 12:17 AM
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  19. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Red arrow "Big L" corresponds to your 2nd still. Now it's up to you whether you want to notice the wrist excessive extention.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  20. Curious

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    The racket seems to be travelling edge on nicely. But why doesnt it drop further down? Trying to figure that out.
    Can we see another gif where you show your max ESR range with elbow in 90 degrees?
     
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  21. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    I think I need to pull my elbow away from my body. "Elbow The Enemy". Incorporate a throwing motion. Also bend the back.

    Hopefully, if I do that, the drop will improve. If not, maybe I dont have ESR flexibility. Federer gets his forearm about parallel to the court. I would be happy to get within 20 degrees of parallel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  22. Keendog

    Keendog Rookie

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    Looks like you almost took out the worlds biggest dragon fly...
     
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  23. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    Not sure if "Big L" corresponds to that 2nd still in earlier post. Or the frame right after. (The first one in sequence below below). This one looks more of a neutral wrist position. Earlier still had
    excessive extention, I agree... Not sure how easy it will be to correct it. Might be hard to get an awareness of what the wrist position is.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018 at 12:18 AM
    #23
  24. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Notice how his body is tilted at that instance. You shouldn't aim to get to similar picture with upright body.
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    You shouldn't try manipulating your wrist in some phases of swing. The issue may be lack of ESR - instead of forearm lagging behind it's just the racquet flipping when you start your motion. Check Raonic trophy, stringbed facing his head - might help.
    [​IMG]
     
    #25
  26. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I think bending the mid back (thoracic) and pulling the elbow away will help the drop. Maybe doing that will resolve the excessive wrist extention.
     
    #26
  27. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    It's bending knees and pushing hips forward rather than bending back.
     
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  28. Curious

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    Bending the mid back could be a mistake. Instead bend the knees with the torso and thighs on the same line. Watch Cilic's serve for that.
     
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  29. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    I think a little mid back (thoracic) is safe.




    Raul TW
    "I really like the tip of improving thoracic (mid back) flexibility rather than lower back, to improve drop. Never heard that before."

    Tennis Evolution - Online Tennis Lessons
    "Raul TW one of the missing links of the serve. You are smart to pick that up..."

    You can see how that elbow is high. Look at that arch in the body, that means that I have flexibility in the thoracic area of the spine not the lower back. When people really curve the low back a lot that means that they're either tight in the hips or they're tight in the thoracic spine and here I've worked a lot on my hip mobility and also my thoracic spine which is one reason I can create this curve and this actually helps racquet drop.

    [​IMG]
     
    #29
  30. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Yeah seen that before and cues like opening chest to the ball work pretty well. However, he didn't emphasise this in the video, but look how his body was tilted (not curved yet) at trophy, how torso and hips were in one plane. Then he starterd the swing and got to that curved posture with racquet dropped deeply. But he never would achieve same depth if he started from upright position.
     
    #30
  31. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    Here is a forum poster that videoed his throws while trying to simulate the serve using ISR. He said that he had trouble timing the racket release so that it would go straight.

    To do stop action single frame on Vimeo, click Vimeo, full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

    If I were asked to throw a racket I would throw it end-over-end like a tomahawk.
     
    #31
  32. RetroSpin

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    I think you can get a deeper drop just by letting your wrist go loose and letting it fall naturally into a radially deviated/supinated position. Few adult rec players can get much ESR, certainly not at Fed levels. But you can serve very hard with almost none.

    You're right, your release pposition is ok but I think you need to come at it from further behind your back and head.
     
    #32
  33. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Racquet drop is not behind head or back. Well, proper one.
     
    #33
  34. ChaelAZ

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    One of our pros just started clients diong this for backhand work. Personally not in my list of things I would use for training, but to each their own.
     
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  35. RetroSpin

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    Really? See 0:32. This is what I meant, call it what you wish.

     
    #35
  36. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    At 31 the racket looks more 'behind his back', so what? At many instants the racket head is at many different places. Why argue over the words 'behind his back'. 2D pictures are not accurate renditions of 3D space.

    You can post a picture showing where the racket appears to be in the camera frame every 4 milliseconds during the service motion.

    You can also remember that the camera gives much more accurate locations for position components up and down in the frame and across the frame than for the component toward or away from the camera. That 3rd component does not show up accurately at all. This is similar to a ball going up or down or going across the frames. But when that ball goes directly toward the camera it just gets bigger and does not appear to move. The racket position at 32 cannot be estimated very well for the same reason. It could well be behind the back. Even if it is behind the back, so what? To eliminate this issue, two orthogonal cameras can be used to record. Sometime two cameras may be blocked from seeing the spot on an object that you want to see. Then multi-camera systems are used.

    The words 'behind the back' don't cover all things seen in pictures. That is why scientific work is done with multi-camera motion capture systems using computers to compute the 3D locations of object spots in the videos.

    The words 'behind the back' allow many interpretations and single pictures cannot provide the answer.

    A workable system for comparisons is to compare two high speed videos taken from the same camera viewing angle.

    The proper motion capture 3D motion capture systems start at around $300K each and require expertise. 9 cameras might be trouble at the courts and I don't know if they can work in direct sunlight. .......

    I believe that Brian Gordon has a 3D motion capture system and applies it to tennis strokes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
    #36
  37. TenFanLA

    TenFanLA Legend

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    Throwing the racket is not very helpful.
    You can throw out your arm or shoulder.

    Also it can be costly if you break the racket, and even worse if you take out the lights, you can be billed for $500,000.
     
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  38. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Let's put it this way. Feli racquet head obviously passes behind his head and back on it's way into drop:
    [​IMG]
    Meanwhile, it's not the posture he swings up from, but somewhere after this (not many frames in this video to pick):
    [​IMG]
    Here's great still for Fed:
    [​IMG]
    The most important thing, in my opinion, is that putting effort into getting racquet tip follow whatever path or loop you think is proper, and particularly concentrating on getting that behind the back, is a flawed approach that will never get one achieve good form. I find it much more practical to see it as a "leave-behind" for the 90-deg bent arm holding a racquet while the shoulder starts moving around the spine and up.
     
    #38
  39. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    Is that Fed pic a kick serve?
     
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  40. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    Yeah, I think so.
     
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  41. heninfan99

    heninfan99 G.O.A.T.

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    the funnest drill in all of tennis...throwing stuff
     
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  42. ByeByePoly

    ByeByePoly Legend

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    Secretly started by racquet manufacturers.
     
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  43. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    It might make sense to throw the racket on edge like a tomahawk without isr. Imo isr happens automatically when you reach the big l position at max esr.

    Pancake serves don't lack isr at contact, they have isr prematurely.

    So accelerating upward like a tomahawk until full extension might be a good drill because at that point the stretch reflex should cause isr automatically.
     
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  44. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    Think you mean max isr at Big L, not max esr... Not really familiar with how a tomahawk throw of racket would look like (no isr? more straight ahead?bent elbow?) .

    And if a serving motion uses ISR, why shouldn't a racket throw employ ISR, and upwards motion, as well?

    [​IMG]
     
    #44
  45. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    Tomahawk throw but straight up not forward.

    I definitely mean esr, at big l shoulder must be externally rotated and then isr happens.

    Imo serve is about getting max esr and keep it as long as possible, then at some point it will happen automatically.

    If you want the isr aspect throw the tomahawk up without isr and then turn the thumb forward just after release.
     
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  46. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    I had thought Maximal ESR occurs at the racquet drop position. From the drop, it is ISR to contact. And the rapid ISR happens around Big L to contact and follow thru.

    But you could be right. Shoulder is in a very externally rotated position at Big L as well, maybe more than racquet drop position.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018 at 2:09 PM
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  47. Dragy

    Dragy Professional

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    I think ISR actually starts around here, all previous being still around max ESR:
    [​IMG]
    All this stuff however is not very usefull practically. It's like we don't keep ESR/swing edge-on literally till the last moment. But doing it till a reasonably close point before contact gives good results.
     
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  48. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    I find it very helpful to think of it this way. Externally rotated position at the full racquet drop. On the upward swing, on the way to Big L, think of supinating even more to get into an even more externally rotated position. Like you were hitting the ball with the opposite face of the racquet. That is basically the position shown in your pic.
     
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  49. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I don't think so. From the drop it is karate chop (leading with racket edge) for a while and the ISR happens closer to the contact.
     
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  50. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    The shoulder is in an externally rotated position at the drop position. Frame 1.

    It is even in a more externally rotated position at around Frame 8-10. From around Frame 12 is when it moves toward ISR.

    The reason I think it moves towards a more externally rotated position after the drop is that
    You can see the elbow leading the hand on the upward swing.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018 at 10:02 PM
    #50

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