I believe you must not throw it with serve motion. Just throw the most comfortable way. Then take this to your service motion.
Why would you ever have WT error if you know it's bad? Because it's the way your brain thinks of hitting the ball. You can easily bring this to the racquet throwing drill if you visualise and follow your current service motion. My opinion.Perhaps but I don't see a problem with a similar serve motion...
In any case,
I want to confirm that I don't have any serious Waiters Tray in the throw above?
I think the throwing drill is to learn speeding up the racquet arm. That's it. It definitly doesn't cover the right-before and through the contact phase.The throwing cue is mainly for you to maintain a loose grip than anything else.
I think the throwing drill is to learn speeding up the racquet arm. That's it. It definitly doesn't cover the right-before and through the contact phase.
Who said abruptly stopping? I didn’t. It’s just that following through with spare arm is different to holding accelerated pivoting 300-350+ SW racquet and guiding it through contact.Speeding up the correct way has to be the intent of any drill. You can't look at a serve drill as a piecemeal drill other than maybe if you're focusing exclusively on addressing any issues with the toss. If you're not focusing on the right-before or through the contact phase, IMO you're just building up some bad habits while feeling you're doing some valuable drill. Just abruptly stopping your arm as soon as you release the racquet, IMO, is missing the point of the 'throwing the racquet drill'.
If you look at Tomasz' drill, he is speeding up, and yet he is also focusing on doing it the correct way. When he talks about the loop and how many lower players pause at the racquet drop than just drop enough to gain momentum and hit, he is showing how the whole point is to build up smooth momentum.
Yikes. Look at your grip. You shouldnt be choked up like that.I am throwing the racquet.
This drill is supposed to help waiter's tray error, approach on edge, improve racquet drop, etc
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Who said abruptly stopping? I didn’t. It’s just that following through with spare arm is different to holding accelerated pivoting 300-350+ SW racquet and guiding it through contact.
Now not pausing at contact is exatly the way to properly accelerate into throw. Actually, only way for me to witness the drop is video. Never put my racquet into drop, just swing from the trophy and let the dynamics take care of racquet looping, dropping and stuff.
It's more like I should think of what you sayWe'll just disagree on that.
It's more like I should think of what you say
I actually have a bit of trouble with the loose grip idea. I can have like one default serve with loose grip (some mild slice I guess). Other options require some racquet guidance, like delayed pronation for slice, a tad of closed structure for kick... Also the forearm-racquet angle thing. I dunno, I can imagine it's possible to swing in such a way for every serve that very loose wrist is not compromising the required posture. Like contact earlier through the swing for slice - before the ISR/pronation develops to the extent it is required for flatter serve. How you look at this?
I am throwing the racquet.
This drill is supposed to help waiter's tray error, approach on edge, improve racquet drop, etc
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I don't see WT but I see other issues. Elbow too low at trophy, shallow drop ( racquet never gets perpendicular), you need to get the racquet more behind your back, your motion is too much sidearm. .
I thought the throwing motion was supposed to simulate a throw? If so your shoulder would have rotated and your palm would be closer or even behind your right hip like a baseball pitcher. You are abruptly stopping your motion and forcing the throw. Also look at the 16:25 mark where Tomasz talks about the gaze and contrast it with what you're doing.
BTW..personally I like the ball in the bag or sock drill more than the cue of throwing the racquet at the ball. The throwing cue is mainly for you to maintain a loose grip than anything else. For me, the ball in the bag/sock drill teaches me to be more mindful/appreciative of the racquet head role in your serve motion and how the whole point is to smoothly build up the momentum in the racquet head to effortlessly smack the ball.
Yikes. Look at your grip. You shouldnt be choked up like that.
Why would you ever have WT error if you know it's bad? Because it's the way your brain thinks of hitting the ball. You can easily bring this to the racquet throwing drill if you visualise and follow your current service motion. My opinion.
You do have WT legacy in this racquet throw. You don't throw it edge-on. Do you go for "axe throw" or what?
Red arrow "Big L" corresponds to your 2nd still. Now it's up to you whether you want to notice the wrist excessive extention.My only thought was "throw the racquet upwards for distance".
The lower Red Arrow is 'Big L" position. Compare to racket throw.
I think it is similar. Except for that position just before release. In a real serve, would still be holding on to racket till ball impact.
Also notice on the racket throw that palm turns outwards to side fence ("full pronation") on the follow thru.
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The racket seems to be travelling edge on nicely. But why doesnt it drop further down? Trying to figure that out.
Can we see another gif where you show your max ESR range with elbow in 90 degrees?
Red arrow "Big L" corresponds to your 2nd still. Now it's up to you whether you want to notice the wrist excessive extention.
Notice how his body is tilted at that instance. You shouldn't aim to get to similar picture with upright body.Federer gets his forearm about parallel to the court.
You shouldn't try manipulating your wrist in some phases of swing. The issue may be lack of ESR - instead of forearm lagging behind it's just the racquet flipping when you start your motion. Check Raonic trophy, stringbed facing his head - might help.Not sure how easy it will be to correct it. Might be hard to feel what the wrist position is.
You shouldn't try manipulating your wrist in some phases of swing. The issue may be lack of ESR - instead of forearm lagging behind it's just the racquet flipping when you start your motion. Check Raonic trophy, stringbed facing his head - might help.
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It's bending knees and pushing hips forward rather than bending back.bending the mid back (thoracic)
Bending the mid back could be a mistake. Instead bend the knees with the torso and thighs on the same line. Watch Cilic's serve for that.Yes, I think bending the mid back (thoracic) and pulling the elbow away will help the drop. Maybe doing that will resolve the excessive wrist extention.
Bending the mid back could be a mistake. Instead bend the knees with the torso and thighs on the same line. Watch Cilic's serve for that.
Yeah seen that before and cues like opening chest to the ball work pretty well. However, he didn't emphasise this in the video, but look how his body was tilted (not curved yet) at trophy, how torso and hips were in one plane. Then he starterd the swing and got to that curved posture with racquet dropped deeply. But he never would achieve same depth if he started from upright position.I think a little mid back (thoracic) is safe.
Raul TW
"I really like the tip of improving thoracic (mid back) flexibility rather than lower back, to improve drop. Never heard that before."
Tennis Evolution - Online Tennis Lessons
"Raul TW one of the missing links of the serve. You are smart to pick that up..."
You can see how that elbow is high. Look at that arch in the body, that means that I have flexibility in the thoracic area of the spine not the lower back. When people really curve the low back a lot that means that they're either tight in the hips or they're tight in the thoracic spine and here I've worked a lot on my hip mobility and also my thoracic spine which is one reason I can create this curve and this actually helps racquet drop.
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I don't know if I will ever get forearm close to parallel on the drop. Maybe I don't have the flexibility.
As for sidearm I think I am releasing around 1 o clock. Does not look too sidearm to me.
Racquet drop is not behind head or back. Well, proper one.from further behind your back and head.
Racquet drop is not behind head or back. Well, proper one.
Really? See 0:32. This is what I meant, call it what you wish.
Let's put it this way. Feli racquet head obviously passes behind his head and back on it's way into drop:Really? See 0:32. This is what I meant, call it what you wish.
Let's put it this way. Feli racquet head obviously passes behind his head and back on it's way into drop:
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Meanwhile, it's not the posture he swings up from, but somewhere after this (not many frames in this video to pick):
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Here's great still for Fed:
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The most important thing, in my opinion, is that putting effort into getting racquet tip follow whatever path or loop you think is proper, and particularly concentrating on getting that behind the back, is a flawed approach that will never get one achieve good form. I find it much more practical to see it as a "leave-behind" for the 90-deg bent arm holding a racquet while the shoulder starts moving around the spine and up.
the funnest drill in all of tennis...throwing stuff
It might make sense to throw the racket on edge like a tomahawk without isr. Imo isr happens automatically when you reach the big l position at max esr.
Pancake serves don't lack isr at contact, they have isr prematurely.
So accelerating upward like a tomahawk until full extension might be a good drill because at that point the stretch reflex should cause isr automatically.
Tomahawk throw but straight up not forward.
I definitely mean esr, at big l shoulder must be externally rotated and then isr happens.
Imo serve is about getting max esr and keep it as long as possible, then at some point it will happen automatically.
I think ISR actually starts around here, all previous being still around max ESR:I had thought Maximal ESR occurs at the racquet drop position. From the drop, it is ISR to contact. And the rapid ISR happens around Big L to contact and follow thru.
But you could be right. Shoulder is in a very externally rotated position at Big L as well, maybe more than racquet drop position.
I think ISR actually starts around here, all previous being still around max ESR:
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All this stuff however is not very usefull practically. It's like we don't keep ESR/swing edge-on literally till the last moment. But doing it till a reasonably close point before contact gives good results.
I had thought Maximal ESR occurs at the racquet drop position. From the drop, it is ISR to contact. And the rapid ISR happens around Big L to contact and follow thru.
But you could be right. Shoulder is in a very externally rotated position at Big L as well, maybe more than racquet drop position.
I don't think so. From the drop it is karate chop (leading with racket edge) for a while and the ISR happens closer to the contact.