Tim Henman: Djokovic Is Not The Most Complete Player Ever

E

Emperor of Belgrade

Guest
Why should Djokovic come to the net very often, Tim?

These discussions about who is the most complete are getting pointless.
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
As opposed to when someone compliments Federeror doesn't compliment Djokovic, like in this thread...
I am on neither side really in this debate who is most complete. It is no big deal who is the most complete. The titles count. I do hate when people act smarter than they really are though.
I think people give Djokovic a lot of well deserved credit for everything he does well. Which is an awful lot.
But it´s never enough: His fans want the entire universe to say that Djokovic is best at everything. And he isn´t.
I never stated Djokovic is the most complete player and never attacked anyone who said otherwise. However I do have a problem with the posters who are strongly attacking those who disagree with them.
 
I think it is a two fold sort of thing. I guess what I mean by that is in the context of the overall game and how it has been played over its history he wouldn't be close to the most complete. However in the context of the modern game and the era he played in, he is one of the most complete ever. In the era Djokovic plays in he has a virtually perfect game considering he is excellent off both forehand and backhand, has a really good serve and one of the best ever returns, is excellent on offense and incredible on defense, and transitions easily from one to another, and is also very consistent, good in counterpunching, and one of the best in neutral rallying. He generally transitions well from baseline to net when needed, and is adequate enough to comfortably put away the volleys he gets when up there. In the context of the modern game his only arguable weakness that is important is the overhead.

The things he might lack like slices, touch, improvization, outrageous topspin, drop shots, great volleying skills, etc...are simply not that relevant in the confines of the era he plays in with the courts, equipment, playing styles. So they don't really detract from him having a complete game in the context of todays game, although if you choose to look at the game from a historical view and how it has been played through its history you could argue otherwise.
 

fundrazer

G.O.A.T.
Just going to say, I've never really taken Nick that seriously. Guy didn't really know tennis but had an idea for a business model, and it ended up working for him. I don't remember if it's Andre who said it, or something I read somewhere else, but Nick B's wasn't a place you went for the best coaching. You went because you would be regularly playing against some of the best juniors.

However, both Nick and Tim are entitled to speak their minds on this.
 

Aretium

Hall of Fame
Nobody listens to a coward who wouldnt cheer his country on in the Davis Cup final because of giving in to cowardly terrorists doing an act of cowardice in a different country to where his country was playing.

I logged in to call you scum for such a comment. Fk u you piece of ****. You are what is wrong with the world.
 

AngryBirds

Semi-Pro
I never think of Djokovic as having the most complete game. His net game is below average and his overhead is quite poor. He is definitely very effective with his amazing baseline game, but having the most complete game is not the word I'd describe about Djokovic.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Who is this Henman guy

Former British number #1 who was a 4 time semi-finalist at Wimbledon, 1 time semi-finalist at Roland Garros and 1 time semi-finalist at the US Open (all 3 surfaces). Beat Kuerten, Federer and Roddick back to back on way to winning 2003 Paris Masters. Here's a pic: :)


Tim_Henman_2006_Australian_Open.JPG
 
D

Deleted member 3771

Guest
He's one of the most complete baseline players ever. He is not really a complete player, as he obviously lacks forecourt skills and instincts, but still I can see how he could be regarded as one of the most complete players ever. If all the players were marked out of 10 in every skill set, Shokavic's aggregate would be around the top of the list overall even if he scored low in the forecourt skills and forecourt instincts category.
 

Fiero425

Legend
Bolletieri never had the guts to face Tiger Tim on a tennis court! ;)

OCO, who in the #ell is Henman; some nobody who won nothing and only made the semi's of his "home" GS? Sounds a lot like sour grapes to me since Nole won it 3 times and Henman never played a final! ;-)
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
OCO, who in the #ell is Henman; some nobody who won nothing and only made the semi's of his "home" GS? Sounds a lot like sour grapes to me since Nole won it 3 times and Henman never played a final! ;-)

See my previous post but one. He also made the semis of RG and US Open too.

Look...he knows he is not in the same class as Djokovic (who is?) but he WAS a former tennis pro who was once ranked number #4 in the world. He is not trying to diss Djokovic, he just thinks that he is not as complete a player as some people like to think. Henman was a classic serve and volleyer and he values net skills probably more highly than most of us do today. That's all. No need for anyone to get their knickers in a twist! :)
 
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metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
OCO, who in the #ell is Henman; some nobody who won nothing and only made the semi's of his "home" GS? Sounds a lot like sour grapes to me since Nole won it 3 times and Henman never played a final! ;-)
were you paying attention in 04?
 

gambitt

Banned
Henman is a former player but his opinion does not hold weight like Sampras, Laver, Agassi or even Kuerten. He is not on that elite level for his opinion to hold as much weight as theirs, but he's entitled to it.

Complete nonsense. Players who had more success on the court does not make their opinion more valid.

Most of the best coaches were not multiple slam winners and have a better understanding of the game. The elite players were the best at executing a game plan but you have fallen into the correlation equals causation fallacy.

I value the opinions of Tony Roche, Brad Gilbert and Magnus Norman over McEnroe, Sampras or Kuerten. It's not even close.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Bolletieri was a coach at tennis clubs teaching old women.

As luck would have it, he thought of a tennis boarding school and Courier/Agassi /IMG gave him his moment to shine. But that does not change Nick's credentials.
 

Fiero425

Legend
I never said he was...what about Bollettieri then?

What about him? I was never a fan, but I'm not going to say the man's a waste of time and space after all his success with past champions; Agassi, Courier, Chang, Davis, Seles, and all the rest who are household names after 10+ years of retirement! ;-)
 

Jaitock1991

Hall of Fame
It depends on how one choses to define "complete player", I guess. If your definition bases itself on how good a player is at EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the game(aspects that aren't even relevant in modern tennis, so being good at them is pointless), I think we can all agree that Novak IS NOT a complete player.

However, if your definition bases itself only on how good a player is in the parts of the game that is actually essential to be good at to win in the era that the given player competes in(in many ways more logical), I'd say Djoker is definitely among the most complete players ever.
 

Roddick85

Hall of Fame
I can agree with Henman on that one, no matter what he tries, Djokovic will never be a great net player, it just doesn't seem natural. However, the net isn't really part of Djokovic's strategy. He won slams from the back of the court and will probably win some again using the same strategy.
 

Tennisanity

Legend
Both are right in a way. Djoko may indeed be the most complete player for today's court conditions. He wouldn't have a chance even 10 - 15 years ago. In this regard, the only player who is most complete for all conditions is Roger Federer.
 

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
Nobody listens to a coward who wouldnt cheer his country on in the Davis Cup final because of giving in to cowardly terrorists doing an act of cowardice in a different country to where his country was playing.

Im sorry but Henman has kids, he didnt want to take his FAMILY. There is nothing cowardly about that because you never know what kind of messed up stuff people will try and he was just making sure they were safe and not putting them into an area which was on high alert. Kind of ignorant to judge him for that.

On topic: Henman is wrong, Djokovic has come to the net alot in the last year especially to finish points early. He is a complete player. Just not the most complete player but there is no part of Djokovic's game that is lacking and it seems Henman is being kind of bitter for no reason.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Complete nonsense. Players who had more success on the court does not make their opinion more valid.

Most of the best coaches were not multiple slam winners and have a better understanding of the game. The elite players were the best at executing a game plan but you have fallen into the correlation equals causation fallacy.

I value the opinions of Tony Roche, Brad Gilbert and Magnus Norman over McEnroe, Sampras or Kuerten. It's not even close.

Fed fans will take whatever they can get at this point. I guess you needed some counter for the Guga and Bolletteri threads but Henman? :D Well players who have actually played at the highest level and know what it takes will always have more credibility. I would never regard Magnus Norman's opinion more than Sampras or McEnroe. Are you kidding me? Henman is lowline hating and it's cool. It's fine he doesn't think Djokovic is the most complete but Djokovic is playing a "little bit better" than Murray? Murray and Federer are very, very close? That is a major stretch. These are opinions on Djokovic from the real bosses during Henman's era who can talk without bias from an outside point of view.

Agassi: "And then you take that to a guy like Djokovic, who probably was even better than Hewitt ever moved and doesn't need to turn a point around. When he's on defence he can actually win the point with one shot. That's an evolution of the game."
"It's remarkable to watch him play so far behind the baseline, to watch him play so far inside the baseline, to watch him be so defensive, watch him be so offensive, watch how he upsets the spin and how he creates his own set of rules out there," Agassi said.
“Does Djokovic resemble myself?” Agassi said. “No, he is even better. He defends really well, while I struggled more in that element of the game. Novak looks totally relaxed when defending, completely calm and the quality of his return is incredible. He is also extremely flexible in his game, which is facilitated by his ability to anticipate his rival’s moves. That is why I think he is a much more versatile player than I was and he is also much more athletic.”
The ability he has to hurt you even from that defensive position is I think unparalleled in our sport from a returning perspective and then he also has the ability to step inside the court and really make you pay, if you get nervous at all hitting a second serve on a crucial point. I look at him as the precedent-setting standard for the return.”

Sampras: “Novak has taken tennis to new heights”, said the American.
“Djokovic is having the greatest year in the history of our sport, there’s no doubt about it”, he said. “He bewildered Nadal. I’ve never seen Nadal look as if he doesn’t know what to do – and even on clay in Rome Djokovic made him look like that.”
“Wimbledon was where he separated himself and took himself to a whole new level. He beat Nadal six times in one year and, considering the year Nadal had in 2010, that’s pretty hard to do.”
“Just as a single season, I think Djokovic’s season is the best since Laver in 1969”
“He’s so good. Really, even though the players are great today, I think he really only has to be concerned with a couple of them,” Sampras told TENNIS.com. “Roger and Rafa and Murray are the only ones that can really push him. I see him—if he stays healthy—staying on top for as long as he wants to be. I just think he’s that good. He wins on hard court, he wins on clay, he wins on grass. He’s done it all. I think he can stay on top for as long as he wants to be.”
“I do [think Djokovic can remain No. 1 for years]. I was thinking about that when he won Monte Carlo." “He could stay No. 1 for quite a while, five or six years in a row. Realistically, if he stays healthy, he could very well do it.”
 

gambitt

Banned
Most complete player and yet can't even get close to beating Wawrinka from a set up at the French. I know that Stanimal turned up but he couldn't even reach a tie break in those last 3 sets. I'll reserve judgement until the end of 2016, at which point he'll be beating up on a 35 year old post-surgery Fed and of course Murray. Stanimal might show up again and snatch the odd victory from him but who else is there? Kyrgios? God help us.
 

gambitt

Banned
Fed fans will take whatever they can get at this point. I guess you needed some counter for the Guga and Bolletteri threads but Henman? :D Well players who have actually played at the highest level and know what it takes will always have more credibility. I would never regard Magnus Norman's opinion more than Sampras or McEnroe. Are you kidding me? Henman is lowline hating and it's cool. It's fine he doesn't think Djokovic is the most complete but Djokovic is playing a "little bit better" than Murray? Murray and Federer are very, very close? That is a major stretch. These are opinions on Djokovic from the real bosses during Henman's era who can talk without bias from an outside point of view.

McEnroe is the biggest bangwagoner of all time. "Nadal is a best volleyer in the top 100". Fed wins: "Fed is the GOAT!". Nadal wins: "Nadal is the GOAT!". He changes his opinion along with his underpants.

Sampras is delusional. After Fed failed to beat Nadal for the 500th time, he said he would find a way to beat Nadal "by coming in on my 2nd serve". He actually said that.

To propose an analogy, take the business world, where the most talented technical workers (engineers, IT developers etc) might be the best at what they do, much better than any manager, but they lack the skills to lead or manage others and understand the business as a whole.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm sure Novak would agree. You only have to watch Laver for a few minutes & stride toward the net like Gene Kelly to know this truth.

http://www.**************.org/Tim-H...-Most-Complete-Player-Ever-articolo30179.html

Former World No. 4 Tim Henman says Novak Djokovic is not the most complete player ever but that he is one of the most effective players in the history of the game.

Speaking in New Delhi where he is promoting the Road to Wimbledon programme, Henman said that every aspect of Djokovic's game is very advanced and athletic and that he is very solid from the back of the court but added that he does not come to the net very often.

Hmn, wonder who is right.

Discuss.
 

maticftw

Semi-Pro
Djokovic is labelled the most complete player ever.Peeps have a problem with it.

Djokovic is said to not be the most complete ever.Peeps still gotta problem with it.
:confused:
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
McEnroe is the biggest bangwagoner of all time. "Nadal is a best volleyer in the top 100". Fed wins: "Fed is the GOAT!". Nadal wins: "Nadal is the GOAT!". He changes his opinion along with his underpants.

Sampras is delusional. After Fed failed to beat Nadal for the 500th time, he said he would find a way to beat Nadal "by coming in on my 2nd serve". He actually said that.

To propose an analogy, take the business world, where the most talented technical workers (engineers, IT developers etc) might be the best at what they do, much better than any manager, but they lack the skills to lead or manage others and understand the business as a whole.

Sampras is delusional? Why couldn't Sampras come in on his second serve? It is definitely better than anybody's in this generation. Maybe you need to go study Sampras a little more before being so dismissive because he was the most clutch server I have ever seen. McEnroe just likes to talk sometimes but his knowledge of the game and the things he notices within a match are profound. No one can seriously question his overall knowledge or intuition of tennis. Just to help you out a little bit...


 
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Mainad

Bionic Poster
Djokovic is labelled the most complete player ever.Peeps have a problem with it.

Djokovic is said to not be the most complete ever.Peeps still gotta problem with it.
:confused:

That's because what one set of peeps believes is a problem for the other set of peeps! :)
 

Diehard

Semi-Pro
What the hell are you talking about?
Britain were in the Vavis Cup final, a huge thing for thiscountry given we are rubbish at the sport apart from Murray, it was a once in a lifetime thing and Henman refused to go because of the Paris attacks. The man is a coward. Murray had the bottle to go as did many others.
 
Honestly Djokovic probably comes in about as much as he should even if he did volley better (and his volleys while definitely not great, are just fine IMO). Even Federer who does volley much better than Djokovic, didn't come in much more at all until he hooked up with Edberg. The only reason he is doing so now is he quite old for a tennis pro, and no longer has the groundstroke consistency or endurance so he has to shorten points. Basically given the playing conditions today, the racquets, and the way guys are trained in returning and hitting, it is ill advised (unless you are the stage of your career the reward and necessity overcomes the risk like Federer today) to come in all that much. It is just a (possibly sad) reality of the game today.

Henman talks a lot of how guys should play today yet he tried to serve and volley with regularity his final years and got passed right and left, despite being one of the best volleyers of the last 20 years. His last year really good year in 2004 he actually forced himself to play at the baseline an almost uncomfortable amount for him, and wait longer for perfect opportunities to approach, and as we see it worked out well for him. Conditions meanwhile have changed further since then.
 

gambitt

Banned
Sampras is delusional? Why couldn't Sampras come in on his second serve? It is definitely better than anybody's in this generation. Maybe you need to go study Sampras a little more before being so dismissive because he was the most clutch server I have ever seen. McEnroe just like to talk sometimes but his knowledge of the game and the things he notices within a match are profound. No one can seriously question his overall knowledge or intuition of tennis. Just to help you out a little bit...



So you think Sampras would have beaten Nadal more often than Fed did during the slow court era? And it's as simple as "coming in on my 2nd serve" which didn't even work against Agassi on the fast 90's courts. Look at the stats on Agassi-Sampras matches and you will notice that 1st serve points won for Pete were in the 80% range but 2nd serve were below around 35%. Nadal would have passed him for fun on slow courts with modern strings.

Keep digging.
 

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
So you think Sampras would have beaten Nadal more often than Fed did during the slow court era? And it's as simple as "coming in on my 2nd serve" which didn't even work against Agassi on the fast 90's courts. Look at the stats on Agassi-Sampras matches and you will notice that 1st serve points won for Pete were in the 80% range but 2nd serve were below around 35%. Nadal would have passed him for fun on slow courts with modern strings.

Keep digging.
agassi was an order of magnitude better returner of second serve than nadal
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
So you think Sampras would have beaten Nadal more often than Fed did during the slow court era? And it's as simple as "coming in on my 2nd serve" which didn't even work against Agassi on the fast 90's courts. Look at the stats on Agassi-Sampras matches and you will notice that 1st serve points won for Pete were in the 80% range but 2nd serve were below around 35%. Nadal would have passed him for fun on slow courts with modern strings.

Keep digging.

I didn't say anything about Federer or beating Nadal. I said he could come in on his second because it was an awesome serve. Being that it is hard to find stats of their matches since they are older, I will need to see the receipts. However, in the 1999 Wimbledon Final, Sampras won 88% of 1st serve points and 49% of second serve points. Agassi is also a better returner than Nadal so winning near 50% of 2nd serve points against Agassi is where you wanna be. Also, Agassi rarely beat Sampras on fast courts but slow courts were his turf. Agassi never beat Sampras at Wimbledon or the US Open and Sampras never beat Agassi at the Australian Open or the French.
 
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gambitt

Banned
I didn't say anything about Federer or beating Nadal.

But that was the context of the Sampras quote. He was telling everyone that he would beat Nadal and he would do it by coming in to the net, which Federer was not doing. That would not have worked on the slow courts. Did you even bother to look it up? Of course not, you joined 8 months ago and post 1,000 times so carry on mashing on your keyboard while I go play some actual tennis.
 
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