Timing is so important - but can you improve it?

[oldhacker]

As a regular player and occasional coach I am fascinated by what makes the difference between between the masses and those who reach higher levels. I am coming to the conclusion that timing is a major factor. By timing I mean consistently getting the right part of the strings to strike the ball at the right contact point at the right part of the swing while maintaining correct form.

I observe many players who have fundamentally sound mechanics but whose timing is often off and so they are horribly inconsistent. I also know a few with similar mechanics whose timing is impeccable and as a result they rarely miss. You know when you see these rare players as the sound of them hitting is different and the ball comes off the strings much harder and heavier than you expect for the stroke you observe.

Very many players can execute a smooth swing with good form in front of the mirror (many also off a dropped ball) but bring a rally ball into the mix and the timing issue kicks in and the whole thing breaks down.

So can we improve timing significantly from what we are blessed with and, if so, how? I think it is one of the hardest aspects to improve because much of timing is based on subconscious (uncontrolled) reactions of the brain to what it sees. I recently took a lot of slow motion footage of pro players at Wimbledon on a very windy day. Due to the wind there were a lot more mis-timed shots than usual and I filmed a number of them and have since analysed them. And you see the pro-players are making the same involuntary decisions to the situation that most mortal players have happen to them on all too often. A couple of examples I have observed from my slow motion windy day Wimbledon footage:

1. Brain sees racket will get to contact point before ball - brain moves wrist forward so opening racket face at contact and resulting in a scooped shot with little spin which goes long.

2. Brain sees ball getting to contact point before racket - brain pulls arm to ball from shoulder resulting in hitting across rather than through the ball resulting in a misdirected and weak shot.

These are things which most players experience very regularly due to timing issues. The best example I have seen of someone who has improved their timing incredibly is a player at my club who has always played with a very fast swing and racket head acceleration. Technically his form on both sides has always been fine but his timing was off and so his shots would regularly fly anywhere - up in the air, over the back fence, off the frame. This happened for years with little noticeable improvement but, with hindsight, I think this was because his brain was not making those involuntary decisions mid swing to try to make contact. Drove us nuts - nobody wanted to be partnered with him in doubles teams because of it. Then a couple of years ago it all changed and, in his mid 20's, he started timing the ball so much better and his level has gone up incredibly from struggling in our lower county leagues to winning most of his matches in our top county leagues.

So perhaps one way to significantly improve timing is to somehow adopt a 'I don't care what happens with each shot as long as I maintain correct form' attitude and eventually the brain will learn the timing using that correct swing rather than trying to alter the swing to improve the timing.

It reminds me a bit of a story I heard about Agassi as a kind being told to hit balls as hard as he could and not worry about keeping them in court.

I would be fascinated in the thoughts of others on timing and how to improve it as I feel it is the most important but hardest to change aspect of most players games.

 

[maggmaster]

Once you have the basis of good technique there is no substitute for hitting a ton of balls. Timing is a function of the automation of the stroke mechanics combined with the data chunking built through thousands of hours of practice. Andre Agassi didn't just hit the ball as hard as he could, he hit 2,500 balls per day as hard as he could. Thats one million balls per year. I know there are a lot of people here who do not see the value of ball machines but in my mind this is their primary value, no human will hit 1,000 balls per hour at you.

 

[CoachingMastery]

There are no gurantees that a player who works on optimal technique will use the technique strategically correctly, or if they are able to create the rhythm, confidence, timing, and reactionary motions needed to implement that technique successfully in live ball rallies.

However, with only very few exceptions, players who DON'T develop an advanced foundation with focus on technique that will allow them to hit shots that are competitive, effective, and consistent, as well as allow them to defend more effective shots by better opponents, will seldom ever become an advanced player.

The vast majority of players I see who never reach their potential are those who established relatively simple, mediocre strokes and never move out of this rudementary means of hitting a ball over the net.

 

[CoachingMastery]

One of the biggest mistakes players do when they are actually trying to learn proper technique is that they compromise the stroke form to accomadate aim...they change the stroke to meet their perceived aim.

Players who change their aim to accomadate their stroke are the players who ultimately master the stroke, but over time and repetitive patterns learn to time this stroke to become a master of aim within it.

 

[Power Player]

I agree with a lot of this, but the Agassi thing is misleading. If you hit the ball as hard as you can every time as a Rec player you are going to lose almost every match and arm the ball. The secret to good timing is a relaxed and smooth swing in my opinion.

It is like playing an instrument..start slow..play smooth..the speed (pace) comes.

 

[maggmaster]

Interestingly the research on high performers seems to show that with proper feedback loops in place, performers who fail more in practice will reach a higher level over all. In "Bounce" Mathew Syed uses the example of an elite figure skater who he calculates fell around 20,000 times en route to the Olympics. With that as our guide, it is not bad to miss, provided that the feedback gained from the miss is internalized.

Coachingmastery - Yes I agree, when I say the basis of sound technique I am not talking about rudimentary strokes. I mean real repeatable groundstrokes preferabley taught by a coach.

 

[CoachingMastery]

Interestingly the research on high performers seems to show that with proper feedback loops in place, performers who fail more in practice will reach a higher level over all. In "Bounce" Mathew Syed uses the example of an elite figure skater who he calculates fell around 20,000 times en route to the Olympics. With that as our guide, it is not bad to miss, provided that the feedback gained from the miss is internalized.

Coachingmastery - Yes I agree, when I say the basis of sound technique I am not talking about rudimentary strokes. I mean real repeatable groundstrokes preferabley taught by a coach.

I agree and knew that was what you meant. Good points.

I'll add to your point here, that missing can either be good or bad, depending on what the player does within the stroke and what they interpret from the miss: If they used good form and footwork, then the miss is a timing or tracking issue. I almost always reward a good stroke even if the student missed the ball completely. (Most all players will developt the timing and visual cues to eventually make clean contact.) If they recognize the timing was off and they use the same stroke with an adjustment of rhythm, this is a positive step as well.

If a player changes the stroke (consciously or not), to accomadate aim, (as I mentioned before), and if that change is moving away from more advanced technique, then this player will seldom develop an advanced stroke.

However, a player who simply shortens an advanced stroke (backswing/follow-through), but maintains the integrity of the stroke, they not only will develop the timing faster, they will have greater success in hitting the ball in the intended direction with the intended spin, but they don't compromise the advanced pattern in this example.

When a player develops confidence in their stroke they naturally begin to swing harder. I've almost never had to tell a player to swing harder. Yet, I've had 14 year old girls serve over 110 mph and youngsters hit incredible topspin angles, depth and pace within a very short period of time because they progressed correctly within this concept.

 

[Power Player]

When a player develops confidence in their stroke they naturally begin to swing harder. I've almost never had to tell a player to swing harder. Yet, I've had 14 year old girls serve over 110 mph and youngsters hit incredible topspin angles, depth and pace within a very short period of time because they progressed correctly within this concept.

- agree with this.

 

[maggmaster]

Yes, because in the case of your students, with a reward and correction system in place, they are getting immediate and effective feedback. I think we are all on the same page here. Now we need someone to argue with.

 

[DavaiMarat]

As a regular player and occasional coach I am fascinated by what makes the difference between between the masses and those who reach higher levels. I am coming to the conclusion that timing. By timing I mean consistently getting the right part of the strings to strike the ball at the right contact point at the right part of the swing.

I observe many players who have fundamentally sound mechanics but whose timing is often off and so they are horribly inconsistent. I also know a few with similar mechanics whose timing is impeccable and as a result they rarely miss. You know when you see these rare players as the sound of them hitting is different and the ball comes off the strings much harder and heavier than you expect for the stroke you observe.

Very many players can execute a smooth swing with good form in front of the mirror (many also off a dropped ball) but bring a rally ball into the mix and the timing issue kicks in and the whole thing breaks down.

So can we improve timing significantly from what we are blessed with and, if so, how? I think it is one of the hardest aspects to improve because much of timing is based on subconscious (uncontrolled) reactions of the brain to what it sees. I recently took a lot of slow motion footage of pro players at Wimbledon on a very windy day. Due to the wind there were a lot more mis-timed shots than usual and I filmed a number of them and have since analysed them. And you see the pro-players are making the same involuntary decisions to the situation that most mortal players have happen to them on all too often. A couple of examples I have observed from my slow motion windy day Wimbledon footage:

1. Brain sees racket will get to contact point before ball - brain moves wrist forward so opening racket face at contact and resulting in a scooped shot with little spin which goes long.

2. Brain sees ball getting to contact point before racket - brain pulls arm to ball from shoulder resulting in hitting across rather than through the ball resulting in a misdirected and weak shot.

These are things which most players experience very regularly due to timing issues. The best example I have seen of someone who has improved their timing incredibly is a player at my club who has always played with a very fast swing and racket head acceleration. Technically his form on both sides has always been fine but his timing was off and so his shots would regularly fly anywhere - up in the air, over the back fence, off the frame. This happened for years with little noticeable improvement but, with hindsight, I think this was because his brain was not making those involuntary decisions mid swing to try to make contact. Drove us nuts - nobody wanted to be partnered with him in doubles teams because of it. Then a couple of years ago it all changed and, in his mid 20's, he started timing the ball so much better and his level has gone up incredibly from struggling in our lower county leagues to winning most of his matches in our top county leagues.

So perhaps one way to significantly improve timing is to somehow adopt a 'I don't care what happens with each shot as long as I maintain correct form' attitude and eventually the brain will learn the timing using that correct swing rather than trying to alter the swing to improve the timing.

It reminds me a bit of a story I heard about Agassi as a kind being told to hit balls as hard as he could and not worry about keeping them in court.

I would be fascinated in the thoughts of others on timing and how to improve it as I feel it is the most important but hardest to change aspect of most players games.

Timing is less about what you do the ball, rather it's more about what the ball does to you. Everyone, I mean everyone can hit a beautifully smooth stroke in the mirror as you mentioned. Not everyone knows how to prepare for the ball to execute it.

Timing is less about hands and more about the feet. It's all about understanding what the ball is doing and how it will react when it comes off the opponents racquet, where it will spin after it bounces. How much time you have based on the speed of the opponents shot.

I've stood behind a pro player hitting the ball warming up and just watching how fast his preparation is and footwork is astounding. It's almost as he's prepared as the opponent hits the ball. Of course they were hitting to each other but the tempo was almost beat like. That's the key to timing, understanding the 'beat' of the ball and how it will react.

So to make this short, understand the ball better and your timing will be better. It's just like judging whether a ball is going out or not. You have to judge the ball every shot, as your judgement gets better so will your timing.

Anyhow it's a reverse way of looking at it.

 

[mightyrick]

So perhaps one way to significantly improve timing is to somehow adopt a 'I don't care what happens with each shot as long as I maintain correct form' attitude and eventually the brain will learn the timing using that correct swing rather than trying to alter the swing to improve the timing.

Your post is really good, but I just can't agree with the above assertion. You have to alter your mechanics to improve the timing. There isn't a universally correct form for any given situation. Because there might be three, four, or five different ways to address the ball.

So when you say "alter the swing", I interpret this to mean, "choose a type of shot".

If I am on the run to my forehand side chasing a ball down, I have a few options. Hit a squash slice forehand. Hit a stretching block. Go down the line. Go cross court. Surprise dropshot. Moonball. Lob. All of these options require varying swing paths, mechanics, and footwork. The same for the backhand.

So to me, the key to success is making the correct shot decision given your position, your opponent's position, and the incoming ball.

Maybe you are talking about the difference between drills, light-hitting, and practice... versus a match. When I'm practicing, my is improving my skills and mechanics. But when I'm in a match, my focus is winning.

 

[oldhacker]

No I do not mean 'type of shot'. I agree topspin drive (either 'old school' or WW), slice, squash shot, lob, drop shot are all fine shots which can be played with good form.

What I am referring to is when you have chosen your shot type but then your brain subconsciously changes from that good form in order to compensate for timing issues. For example, on a topspin drive arming the ball in order to compensate for being late or opening the racket face in order to compensate for being early. Do this too often and it becomes a habit which is why so many players arm the ball and are always late. It is hard to stop this happening because the brain makes the change subconcsiously.

I agree with the consensus that what is needed is instant, accurate and positive feedback. I completely relate to this and often when I am coaching kids I observe correct form but a missed shot and I give that positive feedback. Kids often question me on it with 'but I missed' and I tell them that their swing was great and it was just a little footwork / timing thing which will come if they keep practicing hitting correctly. That is all well and good if you have an eagle eyed coach with you every time you hit but how many of us have that luxury? Even then sometimes I cannot spot the variation from proper form without the use of a slow motion camera - in which case feedback cannot be instant.

Your post is really good, but I just can't agree with the above assertion. You have to alter your mechanics to improve the timing. There isn't a universally correct form for any given situation. Because there might be three, four, or five different ways to address the ball.

So when you say "alter the swing", I interpret this to mean, "choose a type of shot".

 

[mightyrick]

Yep, fair enough. And I agree. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're basically talking about the huge temptation for people to just abandon deliberation in favor of getting racquet on the ball.

And definitely this doesn't just apply to kids. Also adults. I'm curious if you think this is a big reason that there are so many pushers. People end up in match situations where they want the immediate gratification of positive results... but probably want to have good form also. But they just can't find the right balance. So they cop out and just get racquet on the ball.

 

[Swissv2]

This is such an excellent thread. Thanks OP

Timing is an aspect of one's game that remains elusive to the majority of amateur players; the better the timing, the better the player!

I had the privilege to watch pros practice up close at Indian Wells 2012. I also had the privilege to sit very close to the court in the main stadium to watch all of the biggest matches of the tournament. Interestingly enough, there was an amateur tournament towards the end of the second week at IW. It was fascinating to watch the differences between the pro players and the amateur players practice.

Here's what I learned about improving timing. Timing is the efficiency of one's body movement to the ball, the ability to hit the ball when the ball is of proper height, no matter how the ball comes, and the proper mechanics of the swing from beginning to end. One of the reasons why I found the amateurs couldn't time the ball is they couldn't quite get their body into the proper position to give them the opportunity to hit the ball correctly. They either hit late, early, etc. The ball would bounce high, low, skid, spin, etc. making it difficult for the amateur. They wouldn't "see" the ball properly, and wouldn't be able to "execute" the shot right.

What I also saw is which amateurs had timing down. While they still didn't fully have a grasp of the proper movement and ball bounce, their strokes and fundamentals were solid. Only when they were faced with difficult shots, meaning any shot that took more than 4 steps in any direction, or any shot that was either faster or slower than they expected, did they not hit the ball cleanly.

I learned that video taping oneself, and the ability to analyse one's own game and improve from game to game was a great way to improve timing outside of practicing endlessly. Also, focused drills where all you work on is timing also helps quite a bit.

I will continue to read this thread with interest.

 

[user92626]

Way too many different theories and speculations, and IMO, one or two things are never going to suffice.

In short, timing is a skill. Better timing requires better skill which need proper coaching and training. Very few have it (quality coaching & training) and majority don't.

 

[Swissv2]

Way too many different theories and speculations, and IMO, one or two things are never going to suffice.

In short, timing is a skill. Better timing requires better skill which need proper coaching and training. Very few have it (quality coaching & training) and majority don't.

Timing can also be a talent. I know a few amateur players that just get the timing right, even though their strokes are not solid.

 

[user92626]

Timing can also be a talent. I know a few amateur players that just get the timing right, even though their strokes are not solid.

Yes of course it is also from talent, but we generally shouldn't discuss talent because no one knows what talent is or how to define it.

We can talk about coaching and training though.

 

[Swissv2]

Yes of course it is also from talent, but we generally shouldn't discuss talent because no one knows what talent is or how to define it.

We can talk about coaching and training though.

The simple answer of quality coaching and training to gain skill in timing is a rather trite way of answering the question. It's kind of like asking "how to you score a goal? Well, just kick the ball in. And practice a lot." The mentality that very few have it (quality coaching & training) and majority don't is a rather pessimistic way of looking at things.

TW is free advice, that can be taken with a grain of salt, but also the experience of a few individuals at TW can provide unique insights into any question that comes up.

 

[user92626]

swiss,

It may sound that way but, imo, there's no other way to say it so it must be said that way.

Someone like you can talk about timing as "the efficiency of one's body movement to the ball" and whatnot, etc.. but how exactly does that info help? One can have a god gifted body and movements (but no training to tennis), and still ends up as nothing in tennis. Or one can get all technical things said by you and others, and can still get nowhere. You see, how open ended your discussion can be?

It is my opinion that sometimes it's better to hear something "trite" as you put it (but true) than to hear a million things that aren't helpful, or worse, detrimental because they could send you to a wild goose chase.


"TW is free advice, that can be taken with a grain of salt,... "

Well said!

 

[djarvik]

@ Swissv2 - Exactly. Agreed.

I think timing is one of the hardest things to "improve" for a recreational player,
but it is also hard for a more advanced player. Not only do you need a coach,
but you need a coach with a specific knock for noticing and providing instant
feedback. This is the best tool, no question about it.


I would be curious to know what you guys would recommend for a player who
has no access to such coaching. Anything can such a player do on his own?

 

[Swissv2]

swiss,

It may sound that way but, imo, there's no other way to say it so it must be said that way.

Someone like you can talk about timing as "the efficiency of one's body movement to the ball" and whatnot, etc.. but how exactly does that info help? One can have a god gifted body and movements (but no training to tennis), and still ends up as nothing in tennis. Or one can get all technical things said by you and others, and can still get nowhere. You see, how open ended your discussion can be?

It is my opinion that sometimes it's better to hear something "trite" as you put it (but true) than to hear a million things that aren't helpful, or worse, detrimental because they could send you to a wild goose chase.


"TW is free advice, that can be taken with a grain of salt,... "

Well said!

Instant feedback with high quality coaching is the ideal recommended solution. I think about all the amateur players, the pro players, etc. that require this instruction at higher levels. It is hard to be able to work on something that one cannot easily tune one's body properly.

But for the mere mortal with limited resources (time, money, access to high quality coaching), other solutions must be available. Some of the best solutions are reviewing top notch video/book publications. Whilst not immediate feedback, video taping oneself has improved many players, amateurs and professional alike.

While we TWer's may not be able to provide this advice well enough, I believe we can at least give the OP several feasible options to look into.

 

[Avles]

Timing is less about what you do the ball, rather it's more about what the ball does to you. Everyone, I mean everyone can hit a beautifully smooth stroke in the mirror as you mentioned. Not everyone knows how to prepare for the ball to execute it.

Timing is less about hands and more about the feet. It's all about understanding what the ball is doing and how it will react when it comes off the opponents racquet, where it will spin after it bounces. How much time you have based on the speed of the opponents shot.

I've stood behind a pro player hitting the ball warming up and just watching how fast his preparation is and footwork is astounding. It's almost as he's prepared as the opponent hits the ball. Of course they were hitting to each other but the tempo was almost beat like. That's the key to timing, understanding the 'beat' of the ball and how it will react.

So to make this short, understand the ball better and your timing will be better. It's just like judging whether a ball is going out or not. You have to judge the ball every shot, as your judgement gets better so will your timing.

Wow, great post. Thanks.

 

[user92626]

While we TWer's may not be able to provide this advice well enough, I believe we can at least give the OP several feasible options to look into.

...and I'm of the belief and opinion that much that has been said/given could be very inapplicable or right down confusing and detrimental. This is where TT Instruction, however great it is, can also falls on its own weight.

For instance, you say timing is about body's movement. The next guy says it's about feet and balls (pun intended ), and if you watch Fed mishitting, committing errors left and right against Nadal, you could swear timing is entirely something else!!! (Fed can't have bad body's movement or feet, can he?)

I have excellent timing when I play against old men, but frame shots, get to the ball late, early, etc. when I face players more capable than I. Go figure!


But yeah, carry on with posting. That's what I do, too. I just fastforwarded to the bottom line that if you want great skills, get good coaching and training. A face to face good coach would be able to tell you exactly what you need.

 

[rkelley]

I have excellent timing when I play against old men, but frame shots, get to the ball late, early, etc. when I face players more capable than I. Go figure!

Pace steals time. It makes it harder to get set-up correctly and to make small adjustments. Spin, especially varying amounts and direction, along with pace, accentuates this.

Good players are constantly trying to throw stones in the calm pond of the others timing with action and pace, even on rally balls.

 

[vil]

You see players posting videos hitting with a ball machines. Each one of them has a pretty good timing. The balls are consistent. You can adjust to it much easier even if they come with more pace. The problem is, all the variations like topspins, slices, cross,head or tail winds. The ball changes predictable speed and trajectory you trained on. Now it gets tricky. Sometimes it bounces higher than you expected, accelerates, decelerates, kicks sideways, etc.. All these extra variables will make you start shanking and mistiming the ball. I don't think there's any way apart from hitting ton of balls.
I think what really helps is, if you can hit with partner rather than machine and both consiously hit at each other with speed and spin variation.

 

[rkelley]

You see players posting videos hitting with a ball machines. Each one of them has a pretty good timing. The balls are consistent. You can adjust to it much easier even if they come with more pace. The problem is, all the variations like topspins, slices, cross,head or tail winds. The ball changes predictable speed and trajectory you trained on. Now it gets tricky. Sometimes it bounces higher than you expected, accelerates, decelerates, kicks sideways, etc.. All these extra variables will make you start shanking and mistiming the ball. I don't think there's any way apart from hitting ton of balls.
I think what really helps is, if you can hit with partner rather than machine and both consiously hit at each other with speed and spin variation.

You need both I think. Work that ball machine (or wall). If you can't be consistent with a machine (or wall), you're not going to be consistent with a real opponent with all of the variation they offer. I go out to the wall all of time to just work on technique, form, keeping my head on the ball until after the hit, footwork, etc. Why do I still suck you might ask . . . well I suck less for putting in the work.

 

[rkelley]

As a regular player and occasional coach I am fascinated by what makes the difference between between the masses and those who reach higher levels. I am coming to the conclusion that timing is a major factor. By timing I mean consistently getting the right part of the strings to strike the ball at the right contact point at the right part of the swing while maintaining correct form.

[snip]

I would be fascinated in the thoughts of others on timing and how to improve it as I feel it is the most important but hardest to change aspect of most players games.

Yes, I think you can improve timing. Learn the stroke, practice with really easy balls first (those yellow foamy ones against a wall are great because everything is moving so slowly), then more challenging balls, until you're up to real opponents. Go back to basics often. It takes lots of time for most of us, but maintain that good form as you hit and you can get the good form and the good hit to coincide.

One of the biggest mistakes players do when they are actually trying to learn proper technique is that they compromise the stroke form to accomadate aim...they change the stroke to meet their perceived aim.

I've done this. I do this. I work hard to not do this. It's bad. When I don't do this I hit so much better. My wall time is about working on not doing this. I think once you know what to do, you just have to practice it. Walls, ball machines, and hitting partners are all part of getting the form and timing ingrained.

 

[vil]

I agree with wall. I practice the swing every now and then. The only thing with wall is, harder you hit, further you have to be. Wall tends to rush your strokes a bit but gets your feet moving better and definitely improves your timing.
Here is my older video. I have changed my backhand a little bit since then.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWjLFvbzHs&feature=plcp

 

[ski racer]

I read some great books recently about what talent is and how it is grown not made. These authors, right or wrong, suggest timing is due to a concept called deep practice. I would recommend anyone interested in really improving their game check them out.

The Talent Code, By Daniel Coyle
http://www.amazon.com/The-Talent-Code-Greatness-Grown/dp/055380684X/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0

Talent is Overrated, By Geoff Colvin
http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overra...916&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=talnet+is+overrated

 

[shindemac]

Once you've spent any amount of time becoming really good in one activity, then it's much easier to look back and know what you have to do to improve in another. A lot of my other activities have a time component, and I have worked to improve my "timing" in those activities. So yes, it is possible to improve timing. For me, it was mostly challenging myself to the limits of my abilities, consistent practice, and practicing a lot. I've mentioned these 3 things before in other threads, so it's no big secret. But many people still don't seem to get it.