Tips for certain aspects of serve?

[robok9]

Through the past 6 months or so, I have made strides in my tennis game in most areas. However, even though it's been one of my strongest points, my serve has hit a brick wall. For some reason, I CANNOT learn 2 key points on the serve:

-Higher Ball Toss (I can never get the rhythm right)
-More Knee Bend (It just doesn't compute on a regular basis)

The weird part is that if I shadow a stroke, I can get plenty of knee bend and get into the PERFECT position, but as soon as a ball is put in, my toss is too low, and everything else suffers. Does anyone have any tips for getting the ball toss higher and maybe tips for knee bend. Also, just to clarify, the knee bend is not an issue of leg strength.

 

[Topspin Shot]

It could be one of many things, and I don't want to give bad advice, so I won't comment unless I can see your serve.

 

[Royce]

You said it yourself. When you put the ball in the equation, everything gets messed up. Your serve is a sequence of actions. If you mess up one action (the toss) everything else will crumble.

Here's what you need to do. Trust me. Instead of actually serving, practice tossing the ball and getting into your pose. Stop right where you feel you would normally jump and hit the ball (or whatever you do). Let the ball fall instead and repeat as much as you need to until you have a consistent ball toss that you're confident with.

 

[hawk eye]

I wouldn't focus so much on more knee bend. Knee bend is way overrated. It actually can mess up your serve quite badly. Also because you whole rhythm changes and thus have to adapt your toss. Yes, a vid would come in handy here. But it may very well be that your current amount of kneebend - and your toss - are perfect for you.
In that case, go to the courts and look for other ways to improve your serve.
And I would ditch the serving against brick walls.

 

[heninfan99]

Stan doesn't bend his knees all that much. It may not be necessary to deeply bend in your case.

He also hardly jumps off the ground.

 

[Aretium]

Stan doesn't bend his knees all that much. It may not be necessary to deeply bend in your case.

He also hardly jumps off the ground.

there is no point comparing, what works for one doesn't work for all. Stan may just have a super lively arm. I personally believe the best serves use everything and share the load amongst the different parts of the body.

Someone mentioned just practising the motion without hitting. This sounds good to me. Also, working on one thing like leg drive at a time.
Heres a drill for leg drive.
DON'T think about racket head speed or a fast arm, rather a smooth, relaxed arm when doing this drill.

Put a can of balls horizontally in front of the baseline. Serve (not thinking about placement) and try to generate the power with the legs (both legs) and land over the obstacle. Try and keep the same speed of arm in all serves but observe the results when pushing harder with the legs.

 

[heninfan99]

Well, the poster offered no video so we are free to assume things. Depending on his physique and strength he may not have to knee bend that much to serve well. As of late Stan has one of the best serves in the world.

Some people can't bend and contort but make up for it other ways. It seems to me this poster can't bend too much. The good news there is no need for the deep bend.

there is no point comparing, what works for one doesn't work for all. Stan may just have a super lively arm. I personally believe the best serves use everything and share the load amongst the different parts of the body.

Someone mentioned just practising the motion without hitting. This sounds good to me. Also, working on one thing like leg drive at a time.
Heres a drill for leg drive.
DON'T think about racket head speed or a fast arm, rather a smooth, relaxed arm when doing this drill.

Put a can of balls horizontally in front of the baseline. Serve (not thinking about placement) and try to generate the power with the legs (both legs) and land over the obstacle. Try and keep the same speed of arm in all serves but observe the results when pushing harder with the legs.

 

[LakeSnake]

You know the one about tossing up the ball and then trapping it against the fence at your contact point, right?

 

[robok9]

Stan doesn't bend his knees all that much. It may not be necessary to deeply bend in your case.

He also hardly jumps off the ground.

It's so coincidental that you mentioned Stan. I used to have a platform serve, but I couldn't get in the rhythm of have a ton of knee bend, so I switched to try to replicate Stan's serve because he is able to generate so much power without the knee bend. So far, it's working decent, but it's still a work in progress.

 

[robok9]

So far though, you guys definitely gave me some good suggestions. I'll have to try some of these out. Also, you mentioned posting a video (which I probably should have done in the first place), so I guess I'll do that. It's just embarrassing when you see how ugly some part of your game is

 

[robok9]

http://vid1056.photobucket.com/albums/t361/robok9/Untitled_zpsbnragu76.mp4

There's just a small clip of a serve. I realize the elbow should drop lower, but like I said before, the toss seems to be what's messing everything else up.

 

[Lukhas]

You have a waiter's tray serve. I'd practice pitching and throwing mechanics before thinking about more knee bend or toss (well maybe not the toss but you get the idea). You have no proper racquet drop at all. It's an inconsistent technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY

 

[dominikk1985]

I think more important than knee bend is to learn the proper overhead throwing motion and the proper ISR/pronation.

the ISR pronation alone can easily add more than 30 mph of RHS (I have a swing speed radar that I use for baseball usually, put it on a shelf and just used internal rotation with an extended arm and I could achieve 40 mph -not sure how accurate that thing is).

that means if you have a proper throwing motion and good internal rotation you can easily reach good serve speeds even without using the legs and trunk.

the legs and hips probably only add the last 20-30 mph (which is a lot of course).

 

[WildVolley]

I agree with the two posts above. The video shows that your problem isn't with your knee bend or your toss. Though your toss may be too far forward for your current swing technique.

You need to get your swing pattern down before you really worry about your knees. You could benefit from the drills the feel tennis guy did for getting better drop on the serve. Look at that video and work on those drills and I'm sure your serve will improve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Your upper arm is very high so that if you used leg thrust it would not cause the upper arm to do external shoulder rotation as is a high level serve. Who will say what a Waiter's Tray, a very common, very limited serving technique, should look like? If your leg thrust occurs with the arm up at some angle like that, the thrust would tend to bring the arm & racket down. Maybe that is why your leg thrust 'can't seem to be done'?

Google: pictures tennis serve trophy position
Compare yours positions to the trophy positions of high level servers.

Compare your racket position and motion to this description of the big L - with the racket edge-on to the ball. (See sort of an inverted 'L'?)
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/nalbandian_l.php

There is a safety issue for the high level serve (and maybe the Waiter's Tray also?). Ellenbecker video on the shoulder and its orientation to minimize the risk of impingement on the serve.

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

Search TW selecting 'show posts': internal shoulder rotation Chas Tennis

also - camera behind Chas Tennis
- waiter's tray dougherty Chas

for details on similar serve analyses.

The majority of posters of serve videos have had Waiter's Tray serves.

...................................................................................................
This Pat Dougherty video has an excellent discussion of the 'hammer the serve' issue. It also has a thorough explanation of the 'hammer that serve' for both the Waiter's Tray Serve and the internal shoulder rotations serve used by all high level servers.

After I first watched this video, for a year or two I completely misunderstood that he was talking about two different serving techniques. He talks fast. He switches to the 'advanced serve' (the internal shoulder rotation serve) at about 3:05. Great reference video for the Waiter's Tray Serve and ISR serve but he does not use those terms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXJGsRtm08

Conceptually most people understand arm swings for serving but not with simultaneous upper arm rotation. They should not practice anything before they understand the internal shoulder rotation serve, safety issues and decide what to do. Study the motion until it is crystal clear.

 

[syke]

I'd rather you should fix that waiter's tray serve before anything else.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4dpfCWGuo

 

[robok9]

Thanks a bunch!

 

[robok9]

Also, Chas Tennis, thanks for posting the links to the impingement videos. For almost a month, I've been dealing with a shoulder issue that sounds like exactly what they're talking about. I thought it was just a matter of overuse (because right before it I went on a streak of playing for like 3 weeks straight), but now I actually know the cause.

 

[Magic of tennis]

Stan doesn't bend his knees all that much. It may not be necessary to deeply bend in your case.

He also hardly jumps off the ground.

I agree that he doesn't bend his knee that much. However no one is mentioning how muscular he is. Look at his arm. I call him " tank". Player have to generate power from somewhere. He has unique way to generate the power. But I would still suggest to follow perfect trophy pose with deep knee bending and jumping Federer.

 

[heninfan99]

^^I have mentioned that in other posts but a regular guy can hit the weight room while having an elegant, ballet dancer physique like Federer is very rare.

 

[syke]

Also, Chas Tennis, thanks for posting the links to the impingement videos. For almost a month, I've been dealing with a shoulder issue that sounds like exactly what they're talking about. I thought it was just a matter of overuse (because right before it I went on a streak of playing for like 3 weeks straight), but now I actually know the cause.

I wouldn't be surprised you're getting shoulder issues with your serve. You can't have your shoulders parallel to the ground while executing the serve, you are gonna kill your shoulder. At ball contact, your non dominant shoulder should be dipping down and your dominant shoulder pointing upwards.

Seriously you do need get your serve basics right before you go injuring yourself.