movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Masochist.
Advantage of playing someone with Lefty and righty forehands and serves.
Masochist.
I never watch contact point, and instead look down and watch to see where the ball is going. What is the consequences of this? Must keep eye on ballOften, people slow down their racquet on their second serve because they think slower means more control. I swing just as fast on my second (kick) serve. I just hit more top spin (swing path) to get more margin of error. The rest is just lots of practice and muscle memory. BTW, don't visualize the ball path. You should swing at the ball while focusing on contact and racquet path and trust the ball will go where it should go. If you visualize the path, you often drop your head to see if the ball actually takes the path intended which wrecks form.
Hit a kick serveI have been struggling with my second serve and wondering what to do to develop a good second serve.
Second serves go well in practice sessions, but too many double faults in matches (second serve goes long by foot or two). The problems have been consistency with toss location/height, and lack of racket speed.
A few things I'm planning to try -
1 just hit top-spin second serve for couple of months and hit flat serve only if up 40-0
2 use the same routine as the first serve
3 come up with a plan to visualize target and ball trajectory everytime
Anything else to look at in terms of strategy and planning?
Faced a lefty kicker in a league match last night. Only the second one I've come across. Very hard to get used to, and he didn't kick it sideways every time. Variety kills. Tried reading his toss, but it wouldn't compute.![]()
for me anyway,... learning to hit a spin serve took at least a decade of trial and error... but that was before the internet, videos, etc... i was too broke to buy lessons (and the few i did at the time, did not know how to teach a serve). to be honest, i wish i had me around when i was a kid to teach me how to serve... i'd have gotten the mechanics down in a few lessons, and spent the rest of my time practicing the right thing (vs. experimenting, making mistakes, etc...)
I have said it here before ... I almost killed a mixed doubles partner learning the kick serve. Winter indoors mixed league ... I was in my 20s ... not the best time to work on it. Learning the kicker is like skiing ... at first you can't go fast enough to get hurt.
For adding the kicker ... I would definitely start with these two swing thoughts ... one from each video above:
1) graze the ball
2) really arch your back (in video with kid ... called it pointing chest up or something)
If I was learning it now ... knowing what I do now, I would really concentrate on those two thoughts. I would take a ball hopper to the court ... and hit very easy kickers as long as it took to get the motion down. Very relaxed arm ... arched back ... just enough rhs to hit the spin/kicker high over net and in the box. I don't think it would matter which one you started with ... topspin or kicker. It seems that would be an easy tweak later. I have hit a kicker for 30 years ... never really knew there was a "topspin" version of it. To me ... the kicker should be your endpoint/goal ... because the bounce up and to the right is difficult for the returner. Even a slow kicker works ... and gives you a lot of time to come in behind it in doubles. I pretty much kick first and second serves now ... particularly doubles. The exception is spin out wide in deuce court ... I hit that a lot also. I'm guessing my kicker isn't as good as Raul's ... because I have better results deeper in the box. Also short and wide in ad side ... but that is for angle for me ... not higher to opponent. The kicker becomes a really good addition because you can get to where you have no need to double fault. At 4.5 and lower ... I have not run into that many that can make you pay to much for even a slow kicker as long as it moves enough. In fact, on second serves ... depending on opponent ... anywhere in the box is fine in doubles. I really don't see many kickers in my age group. I was the only one on my team ... 14-15 guys. Lots of spin serves.
btw ... being of similar height ... when we get that flat serve in down the T with a low ball toss ... no bounce.![]()
my main problem with hitting flat (when i was younger):Ha!! I used to hit them flat… but after being in denial for many years I've come to realize that a flat serve just isn't easy for a 5' 7" guy! All my serves have some spin- mostly slide. Working on more topspin/slice is some work. Kudos to @atp2015 for sticking with it during matches. It's not easy when most of your game is 4.0 level and your 2nd serve is 2.5 level. LOL (that's me not OP!)
Coincidentally, messed with a buddy's serve a bit yesterday whilst we were hitting. He hits both first and second serves flat with an Eastern forehand grip. Right foot came around with little or no shoulder turn in the back swing. We fiddled with a topspin serve for about fifteen minutes. Here's some "before" and "after".
and after:
good transformCoincidentally, messed with a buddy's serve a bit yesterday whilst we were hitting. He hits both first and second serves flat with an Eastern forehand grip. Right foot came around with little or no shoulder turn in the back swing. We fiddled with a topspin serve for about fifteen minutes. Here's some "before" and "after".
and after:
I have been struggling with my second serve and wondering what to do to develop a good second serve.
Second serves go well in practice sessions, but too many double faults in matches (second serve goes long by foot or two). The problems have been consistency with toss location/height, and lack of racket speed.
A few things I'm planning to try -
1 just hit top-spin second serve for couple of months and hit flat serve only if up 40-0
2 use the same routine as the first serve
3 come up with a plan to visualize target and ball trajectory everytime
Anything else to look at in terms of strategy and planning?
My two cents is that there is something mental going on. Arrange a practice match. Give yourself ONE serve. If you miss it its their point. To compete you will have to get a good reliable serve. And in an actual match you will relax a bunch knowing you have a whole nother serve. And it i think will show the importance of getting the 1st serve inhope I'm not being arrogant here, but I think my serve technique is not bad for my level and my first serve percentage is good - 6 out of 10. The second serve percentage should be 80%, but mine is 40%.
As a result, instead of double faulting once in 3 service games( expected double fault probability - 20% of 40 = 8 which means once per 12.5 serves - 4 good serves per game) , I'm giving away a free point every game on average ( real double fault - 60% of 40 = 24 i.e. once per 4 serves).
As the things stand now, I'm better off hitting first serve as my second serve which will decrease the double fault rate to 40% of 40 = 16 (2 doubles per 3 service games)
This is rock solid advice. I advise every player to hit nothing but second serves until they're steady enough as weapons that you can 100% get into every point without being at any disadvantage. At LEAST in recreational play. If you feel the need to macho up for leagues or tournaments or HS play, so be it. But the phrase, "second serve" should be out of your vocabulary until your second serve is excellent. Until then, it's just, "your serve," and it's the only one you hit.My two cents is that there is something mental going on. Arrange a practice match. Give yourself ONE serve. If you miss it its their point. To compete you will have to get a good reliable serve. And in an actual match you will relax a bunch knowing you have a whole nother serve. And it i think will show the importance of getting the 1st serve in
This is rock solid advice. I advise every player to hit nothing but second serves until they're steady enough as weapons that you can 100% get into every point without being at any disadvantage. At LEAST in recreational play. If you feel the need to macho up for leagues or tournaments or HS play, so be it. But the phrase, "second serve" should be out of your vocabulary until your second serve is excellent. Until then, it's just, "your serve," and it's the only one you hit.
Even a little less potent, you'd be surprised what the combination of increasing spin and movement, while getting virtually every first serve in will do to an opponent.
Awesome. I hope lots of 3.5-4.0 types read this post.Precisely what I did for *decades*. Only in very recent times have I started trying to branch out a bit and try some flatter type first serves. Some of what I gained from that strategy was that, if I should *miss* my first serve, I would then know precisely what needed to be modified in order to make the next one almost certain to go in, as I had just "practiced" that very shot. If I had just missed a flatter first serve, then I would have much less reason to be confident enough to swing out on a topspin second serve - the worst of both worlds.The pain of choking a second serve is beyond what I can bear. Not just double faulting, but knowing that I had double faulted because I had *choked*. Unacceptable. Personal problem.
One of the "swing thoughts" that I developed over the years for the serve was that I would allow myself to miss a serve (first or second) "long", but not into the net. It's sorta like the golfer who takes one side of the hole out of play, say starting it down the left side, because he knows it's either going to fade or just fly straight, but no chance of hooking. In doubles, I would sometimes warn my partner prior to a second serve on a break point that I might miss long. It's *amazing* how much this freed me up to hit decent, topspin second serves - and I can't recall very many that *did* land long in those situations. I've also had some pretty good success with playing partners who had become shaky with their serves to give them "permission" to double fault every point, but only if they missed long. There's a *lot* of topspin serves (before you really have command of them) that "feel" like they're going to be long, before they suddenly dip down into the service box. I suspect that I'm not the only one that may have had trouble coming to "trust" that.
When I occasionally subject myself to singles these days, I'll often come out on top simply because of the opponent's pitiful excuse for a second serve. They can often blow me off the court with their first serve (when it's "working"), but when I stand in a few feet behind the service line to await that second offering, things get very interesting.![]()
Same thing here. I used to double fault and then once I did that, it would set off a chain reaction of double faults. I used to have b2b games with 4 straight double faults, and I even thought of quitting tennis and reverting back to racuetball. Just like OP, I'd be serving fine in practice. It took me a long while to shut down my ego to consistently loop the ball on 2nd serves and give myself a huge margin of error. I was so determined to not dink balls, that I didn't even rationally think of something between a blistering serve and a dink. Now, I very rarely double fault. I no longer feel embarrassed to play doubles because I'll let my teammate down. As time has gone on, I've now shifted my 1st serve to the same style. The only difference is on the first serve, I hit it a little higher up on the string bed and a little flatter, while the 2nd serve, I consciously hit it a bit lower with more pronounced spin. Else it's the same motion and not much difference. It's been so liberating to get my serve in consistently with decent depth, spin and speed. Once in a while I feel the need to rip the tar out of the ball, just to prove to my opponent that I can hit a hard serve, but it's more satisfying to play smarter and not give free points to my opponents.Awesome. I hope lots of 3.5-4.0 types read this post.
mcs1970 said:I even thought of quitting tennis and reverting
Whenever a player doesn't hit the ball as well, or doesn't play as well, during a match as he does during practice it is almost always due to lack of match play experience.
What happens is that a player gets tight during the match because he feels more pressure to win the match, and dosen't fully execute his shots the way he does in practice where there is less pressure to win.
So, the answer is more match play experience, which leads to more familiarity and more comfort with match play. In the meantime, the key is focus on fully executing shots one shot at a time and make sure that you're doing what you think you are doing.
When a player is more comfortable with match play, the pressure to win will most often raise his level of play.
Don't know if yer serious or making fun, but to me, the key to teaching is having a good student. I've had some good success with folks who are both very athletic and very intelligent. I'd hate to have to work as a teaching pro with students who weren't both.Wow ur an amazing teacher, wish I lived where you are haha.
Precisely what I did for *decades*. Only in very recent times have I started trying to branch out a bit and try some flatter type first serves. Some of what I gained from that strategy was that, if I should *miss* my first serve, I would then know precisely what needed to be modified in order to make the next one almost certain to go in, as I had just "practiced" that very shot. If I had just missed a flatter first serve, then I would have much less reason to be confident enough to swing out on a topspin second serve - the worst of both worlds.The pain of choking a second serve is beyond what I can bear. Not just double faulting, but knowing that I had double faulted because I had *choked*. Unacceptable. Personal problem.
One of the "swing thoughts" that I developed over the years for the serve was that I would allow myself to miss a serve (first or second) "long", but not into the net. It's sorta like the golfer who takes one side of the hole out of play, say starting it down the left side, because he knows it's either going to fade or just fly straight, but no chance of hooking. In doubles, I would sometimes warn my partner prior to a second serve on a break point that I might miss long. It's *amazing* how much this freed me up to hit decent, topspin second serves - and I can't recall very many that *did* land long in those situations. I've also had some pretty good success with playing partners who had become shaky with their serves to give them "permission" to double fault every point, but only if they missed long. There's a *lot* of topspin serves (before you really have command of them) that "feel" like they're going to be long, before they suddenly dip down into the service box. I suspect that I'm not the only one that may have had trouble coming to "trust" that.
When I occasionally subject myself to singles these days, I'll often come out on top simply because of the opponent's pitiful excuse for a second serve. They can often blow me off the court with their first serve (when it's "working"), but when I stand in a few feet behind the service line to await that second offering, things get very interesting.![]()
Back before I gave that stupid game up (and had a five hdcp), my buddy and I would often play in the late afternoon when nobody else was out on the courses, and one of the games we would play was sort of an "individual" scramble - you got two tries on every shot. We'd play from the tips and would generally shoot par or under. We once tried changing it up and would play two shots each time, but you had to play the worst of the two. We couldn't finish nine holes."Some of what I gained from that strategy was that, if I should *miss* my first serve, I would then know precisely what needed to be modified in order to make the next one almost certain to go in, as I had just "practiced" that very shot."
Man ... just think if we got to hit a second putt in golf.
Rock solid serving advice from Shroud?? Who would have thought it possible...This is rock solid advice. I advise every player to hit nothing but second serves until they're steady enough as weapons that you can 100% get into every point without being at any disadvantage. At LEAST in recreational play. If you feel the need to macho up for leagues or tournaments or HS play, so be it. But the phrase, "second serve" should be out of your vocabulary until your second serve is excellent. Until then, it's just, "your serve," and it's the only one you hit.
Even a little less potent, you'd be surprised what the combination of increasing spin and movement, while getting virtually every first serve in will do to an opponent.
Now get out there and live it, my man!Rock solid serving advice from Shroud?? Who would have thought it possible...
Surprised to hear that. When I've had the chance to work with tennis friends who are good athletes, it's usually only a few minutes until I have them getting the hang of, at least "how", to hit a topspin serve, and then successfully hitting a good many of them pretty quickly. It seems the piece of the puzzle that has become more clear in recent times is that the swing path is much more out to the right than what I used to hear about. I keep going back to the video of Pat Dougherty showing the kid swinging up at a plastic tube for picking up balls - swinging up and dead out to the right.Around the 4:45 mark. With the right grip (between Continental and Eastern Backhand) and the toss far enough to the left (YMMV), there's not much that can go wrong.
Lefty slice can be really tough too. It's good to have a lefty in your regular practice rotation.
Good practice hitting crosscourt backhands against a topspin forehand too.
What's the difference between topspin serve and kick serve? Thought it was the same thing
We sometimes get 4 lefty's on court for doubles, but the serve varies widely.
One guy hit's mainly top/slice 85 mph firsts and 75 mph seconds, great placements.
One guy hit's only 35 mph skidding sidespin short serves with great placement all over the service box.
One guy hit's 35 mph deep floater's, good placement, but his main strength is a great groundie to back up his weak serve.
Me you know. Inconsistent 100 mph flats, nothing 70 mph second that can walkabout.
But all 4 of us are totally different, and not good practice for any player trying to get used to lefty serves.
once you hit topspin serves consistently... you'll hit a "kick" by accident (result of a "bad" toss), and then you'll try to recreate that "kick"... and then you'll know the differenceWhat's the difference between topspin serve and kick serve? Thought it was the same thing
You got a couple of service winners and a near ace of Matt - no slouch against a 5.0.
once you hit topspin serves consistently... you'll hit a "kick" by accident (result of a "bad" toss), and then you'll try to recreate that "kick"... and then you'll know the difference(but until then i'd recommend not worrying about it, as it will confuse your current (sidespin) serving progress
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...I think my serve technique is not bad for my level and my first serve percentage is good - 6 out of 10. The second serve percentage should be 80%, but mine is 40%.
As a result, instead of double faulting once in 3 service games( expected double fault probability - 20% of 40 = 8 which means once per 12.5 serves - 4 good serves per game) , I'm giving away a free point every game on average ( real double fault - 60% of 40 = 24 i.e. once per 4 serves).
As the things stand now, I'm better off hitting first serve as my second serve which will decrease the double fault rate to 40% of 40 = 16 (2 doubles per 3 service games)
To develop a reliable service takes practice, lots of practice!
And when you practise the practice of service, practise both the first and second serve separately, they are different strokes.
There are no shortcuts!
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You might want to talk to this guy:I was hoping you would reveal a sacred hymn that could be recited to unleash powerful and definitively reliable second serves. I guess the wait may be worth the... wait.