Does anyone (urban? Moose? SgtJohn?) know of an approximate count of the total number of titles won by either Fred Perry or Don Budge--both amateur and pro? I know of rough figures for guys like Rosewall and Laver, and even Tilden, so I suspect someone out there has an estimate.
Chaognosis, there are even fewer data for the pre war era, than for the post war period up to 1968. Michel Sutter has a book written about the 1946 to 2005 period. As amateurs Budge and Perry played not that many official events in a year, maybe 12-15. They focussed on the Davis Cup campaigns. There were exhibitions too, like in Australia, where they often played nation matches. In one of those von Cramm beat Budge in a great match begin 1938, shortly before his arrest by the ****s. I once read. that Budge had a run of over 90 unbeaten matches 37-38, before he lost in the two last amateur events he played in California. Outside his Grand Slam, Budge won in 1938- in my estimation - maybe 10 tournaments. I would give him around 30 amateur events and some 30 pro events, plus some pro head to head tours. Perry around the same numbers.
I've heard the same - 92 straight wins, I believe. Thanks for your thoughts. I am curious, if there is so little concrete information about Perry and Budge, where the estimate of Tilden's 145 titles on Wikipedia comes from. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis,_male_players_statistics
To Tilden: there is a number given in 'Total Tennis', that Tilden won some 138 titles. I don't know, if its reliable, there are no details given. To my knowledge, Frank Deford has no statistical appendix.
Tennis isn't the only sport with fragile data. You can see it on the recent discussion on the 1000 th goal in football by Romario. The criteria of official and non-official games and goals are dubious. They say, Pele scored over 1200 goals, but only around 700 seem to be scored in official matches. Other players i know, who are in this discussion are Brasilian Arthur Friedenreich (around 1920), Austrian Franz 'Bimbo' Binder (30s), major Ferenc Puskas from Hungary (big star of the 50s and early 60s.) and German 'bomber' Gerd Müller. From what i know, Romario has indeed the highest number of official goals with round 740.
Hi everyone: Chaognosis, here is what I gather from several books: Budge: 27 amateur titles, 15 pro titles Perry:34 amateur titles, 19 pro titles For Tilden, I get 133 wins, so my stats are probably quite accurate compared to wikipedia's and Collins's... The numbers are low for the pro period, but of course it comes from the fact that the pro circuit was dominated by tours instead of tournaments. As for the amateur period, Budge and Perry seem to have played only very big events, compared to Tilden who played everything in the US: they focused on PSW Los Angeles, Berkeley Pacific Coast, Newport Casino, London Queen's etc. I don't know about the 90-match winning streak by Budge, I don't have the information, but it seems possible, as he won 14 events in 1937-1938, then it would be the equivalent of 90 matches approximately. It's all the more impressive as these were only very big events , as I said. Urban is right about the Davis Cup; it is not included in the stats above, but the players prepared for each tie as for a big tournament, so Perry's 4 Cup victories, and Budge's 2 ought to be counted. Jonathan
I have the same tournament wins totals for Perry and Budge (but only 18 pro titles for Perry). From the Hall of Fame web site Tilden won 138 of 192 amateur tournaments he played, lost 28 finals and had a 907-62 match record. Also he won at least 14 pro tournaments so his total is close to 152. I can only account for 118 of the 138 amateur and 14 pro tournaments. As for Budge's winning streak I have also read that his winning streak was 92. This streak is from tournament and Davis Cup play, but he did lose some exhibitions and friendly's. Here is his 1937 and 1938 singles record with some missing matches. 1937 January 4-10 Miami Biltimore SF d. Harris 26 62 62 61 F lost Grant 62 75 60 DF Budge/ Hendrix d. Grant/ Sabin 63 62 January 11-17 Dixie Championships 1R d. Busbee 62 62 2R d. Rose 62 60 QF d. Cooke SF d. Harris 63 62 F lost Grant 46 63 63 26 62 DSF Parker/ Senior d. Budge/ Hendrix 97 64 14 tournaments and 92 match streak in tournament and Davis Cup play 1. February 1-7 Miami Surf Club Invitation 2R d. Marcum SF d. Hendrix 61 62 61 F d. Grant 63 26 64 64 DSF Harris/ McCauliff d. Budge/ Harris 26 64 1210 __________________________________________________________________ February 9 Exhibition match Nassau Bahamas d. Hendrix February 14 Exhibition match Atlanta d. Grant 57 63 64 __________________________________________________________________ April 30-May 2 Davis Cup vs Japan d. Nakano 61 61 60 d. Yamagishi 62 62 64 May 29-31 Davis Cup vs Australia d. Crawford 61 63 62 d. Bromwich 62 63 57 61 2 June 14 Queens Club 1R ? 2R d. Van Den Eynde 60 63 3R d. Williams (14 minutes and lost 1 game) Qf ? SF d. Nakano 62 60 F d. Austin 61 62 DF Budge/ Mako d. Boussus/ Petra 61 79 61 3 Wimbledon 1R d. Farquharson 63 62 61 2R d. Hughes 62 62 62 3R d. Boussus 61 64 62 4R d. Hecht 64 62 62 QF d. McGrath 63 61 64 SF d. Parker 63 61 64 F d. von Cramm 63 64 62 July 17-20 Davis Cup vs Germany d. Henkel 62 61 63 d. von Cramm 68 57 64 62 86 July 24-27 Davis Cup vs England d. Hare 1513 61 62 d. Austin 86 36 64 63 August 7-14 Eastern Grass Court Rye DF Budge/ Mako d. Shields/ Parker 26 86 62 36 63 August 16-21 4 Newport 2R d. Bowman 86 86 3R d. Guernsey 4 sets QF d. McDiarmid 108 75 36 63 SF d. Grant 86 60 60 F d. Riggs 64 68 61 62 DF Budge/ Mako d. Hughes/ Hare 36 46 62 64 62 5 US Champs 1R bye 2R d. Winslow 63 63 63 3R d. Abrams 60 61 61 4R d. Petra 60 63 61 QF d. Hunt 61 62 64 SF d. Parker 62 61 63 F d. von Cramm 61 79 61 36 61 __________________________________________________________________ Sept 13 Exhibition Detroit d. Mako 108 63 Sept 14 Chicago Exhibition von Cramm/ Henkel d. Budge/ Mako 97 26 75 75 lost Henkel 64 108 __________________________________________________________________ Sept 17 6 Pacific Southwest 1R d. Wellman 2R 3R Qf d. Yamagishi 86 63 SF d. Mako 86 60 60 F d. von Cramm 26 75 64 75 October 3 7 Pacific Coast Championships QF d. Yamagishi SF d. Kovacs 64 57 75 62 F d. Riggs 46 63 62 64 DF Budge/ Sabin d. von Cramm/ Henkel 63 64 63 December 1 8 Victorian Championships QF d. Crawford 75 64 36 86 SF d. McGrath 86 63 86 F d. Bromwich 86 63 97 DF Crawford/ McGrath d. Budge/ Mako 16 63 64 75 __________________________________________________________________ Dec 16-18 USA vs Australia Sydney d. Quist 46 75 61 60 lost Bromwich 62 63 810 64 December 27 Sydney Exhibition lost Von Cramm 61 63 (apologises for match and says will play against Crawford) December 29 Sydney Exhibition d. Crawford 75 61 61 1938 January 8th Melbourne Tri-angular lost von Cramm 64 810 1210 d. Bromwich 64 86 Adelaide January 15th lost Bromwich 68 61 63 __________________________________________________________________ 9 1938 Australian Champs 1R d. Hancock 62 63 64 2R d. Whillians 61 60 61 QF d. Schwartz 64 63 108 SF d. Quist 57 64 61 62 F d. Bromwich 64 62 61 10 French Championships 1R bye 2R d. Gentien 61 62 64 3R d. Mohammed 61 61 57 60 4R d. Kukuljevic 62 86 26 16 61 QF d. Destremau 64 63 64 SF d. Pallada 62 63 63 F d. Menzel 63 62 64 11 Wimbledon 1R d. Gandar Dower 62 63 63 2R d. Billington 75 61 61 3R d. Rogers 60 75 61 4R d. Shayes 63 64 61 QF d. Cejnar 63 60 75 SF d. Puncec 62 61 64 F d. Austin 61 60 63 __________________________________________________________________ July 5th United States vs Hungary Budapest d. Szigeti 46 64 64 lost Asboth 61 86 30 retired __________________________________________________________________ July 10th 12 Prague Czechoslovakia Champs SF d. Drobny 64 64 46 68 62 F d. Hecht 61 64 64 DF Budge/ Mako d. Hecht/ Drobny 63 75 97 __________________________________________________________________ July 13th USA vs Yugoslavia Exhibitions Budge d. Puncec 62 62 Budge lost to Kukuljevic 1513 75 Budge lost to Puncec __________________________________________________________________ 13. August 15 Newport Casino 1R ? 2R ? 3R d. Henderson 64 63 QF d. Allison 79 86 64 97 SF d. Parker 63 61 63 F d. Wood 63 63 62 DF Budge/ Mako d. Allison/ Ryn 75 75 62 September 3-5 Davis Cup vs Australia d. Bromwich 62 63 46 75 d. Quist 86 61 62 14 US Champs ended Sept 24 because of rain 1R bye 2R d. van Horn 60 60 61 3R d. Kamrath 63 75 97 4R d. Hare 63 64 60 QF d. Hopman 63 61 63 SF d. Wood 63 63 63 F d. Mako 63 68 62 61 September 28 Pacific Southwest 1R d. Carruthers 64 63 QF d. Lubin 63 16 63 SF lost Quist 75 62 57 62 Streak ended with Quist loss October 6 Pacific Coast Championships 2R d. Pedlar 62 61 3R d. Shayes 64 60 QF lost Hopman 62 57 61 (October 9)
Interesting list, Andrew Tas. I would single out the clay events for a moment, because it was Budge's weakest (relatively) surface. Budge lost one match to Yugoslav Puncec, who was a solid clay player, and to Kukuljevic, who had taken Budge to 5 at RG. And he was taken to 5 sets at Prague by a very young Jaroslav Drobny, who must have been 17 or 18 by the time. I think, Budge was a bit lucky, not to face von Cramm on clay at Paris in 1938. Budge was losing the grip on von Cramm a bit, even on grass. The match at Melbourne in 1938, that von Cramm won at that Continental Cup (i read it was two sets to nil for von Cramm) was regarded by witnesses as better than their famous encounter at DC the year before. To Budge's credit it is to say, that he opposed the ban on von Cramm by the Gestapo. And i thought, that von Cramm/ Henkel beat Budge/ Mako for the US championship doubles crown in 1937, one of the few losses of the famous US pair.
budge streak Thank you andrew for a great list again. Budge's tournament/davis cup streak does not seem to add up to 92 matches; its about 82. Do you think you are missing a tournament; What happened between the Aussie open 1938 and the French; he seems to have taken a long rest. jeffrey
Budge's 92 match streak I think that he only played 14 tournaments which is what is stated in Bud Collins Total Tennis. I am missing some early round matches in the tournaments documented but think this is how he won the 92 matches. Miami Surf Club (4-0) Davis Cup vs Japan (2-0) Davis Cup vs Australia (2-0) Queens Club (6-0) Wimbledon (7-0) Davis Cup vs Germany (2-0) Davis Cup vs England (2-0) Newport (6-0) US Champs (6-0) Pacific Southwest (5-0) Pacific Coast (5-0) Victorian Champs (6-0) Australian Champs (5-0) French Champs (6-0) Wimbledon (7-0) Czech Champs (5-0) Newport (6-0) Davis Cup vs Australia (2-0) US Champs (6-0) Pacific Southwest (2 matches before loss)
Look Tilden 24/25 record here, thanks to AndrewTas: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=215389
One match of Budge with von Cramm of the Australian Matches begin 1938, documented by Pathe pictures, is now shown on the Old vids side, along with other clips of Tilden, Vines at Wembley and MSG, Kozeluh, Perry and Nüsslein. Begin 1938 it looked, that von Cramm began to get Budge's number. Too sad, that he was internated by the Gestapo after his Australasian tour.
I have read that Robert Geist had Tilden at 148 tournament victories a few years ago. I think he may have a higher number for Tilden now.
148! For the 20s, 30s, 40s -- that's one of the greatest stats I've ever heard. I mean the traveling was so problematic that it mostly torpedoed the carefully developed form of any athlete and Big Bill still pockets 148. How about that...
