To 4.5 Guys: "Get Out And Stay Out!!"

[Cindysphinx]

How are you defining better?

More vanilla? Lower competitive level? Less need to think outside the box to win?

Well . . . Better = more competitive. Closer scores. The opposite of domination.

There are ways for a 4.0/4.0 team be competitive against good 4.5M/3.5 teams, but you need to open up your mind a little and and forget about the conventional strategies you're most familiar with. Hitting every ball to my 3.5 partner won't work - I do drills with my 3.5 partners to be able to handle hard stuff at net. And they stand really TIGHT. I never get down on them if they miss a shot, but I ALWAYS gently scold them if they back off the net! They learn fast that way.

Lobbing my partner won't work either. She is trained: the moment the lob goes up over her head, she instinctively darts to her left to give me a smash window and be in position to clean up the potential messy floater defensive shot that comes back over the middle.

You have to beat me another way, and you'll need to be clever about it.

That's it? That's all ya got?

You say that conventional doubles strategy won't work, but you don't say what *will* work. You know why?

'Cause pretty much nothing will work. If my 4.0 partner and I had the mad tennis skillz to hang with a good 4.5 guy, we wouldn't be 4.0s. So the match becomes one player (you) dominating the court until we give your partner something she can put away.

Look. The rules allow you to play 8.0, so OK. But let's not pretend that it is a fair fight when you come across me and your average 4.0 guy and the problem is simply that we don't use the right strategy.

 

[OrangePower]

I think the best combo is a good 4.0/4.0 combo. Two strong 4.0s should beat an average 4.5/3.5 combo.

What I think:

ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F > ave 4.0 M + ave 4.0 F
top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F > ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F
top 4.5 M + top 3.5 F > top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F

 

[Angle Queen]

What I think:

ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F > ave 4.0 M + ave 4.0 F
top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F > ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F
top 4.5 M + top 3.5 F > top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F

I agree, Orange.

And, from my experience, I see/saw way more of the third combination as overwhelmingly successful combos...at least around here (mostly because the 8.0 captains felt that to have a "3.5W" on the roster, they needed a "top" 4.5M to carry her...and realistically, only the "top" 3.5W would even consider playing 8.0).

Funny, though, how you had to add the "M" and "F" (shhhh, USTA uses "W") to create those equations. Kinda sums up what this whole thread has evolved to. Good job.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

What I think:

ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F > ave 4.0 M + ave 4.0 F
top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F > ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F
top 4.5 M + top 3.5 F > top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F

While I agree with this, where do you think a Top 4.5W + Top 3.5M would stack up to? We had a couple like that in our area and they tended to win pretty well at 8.0M.

 

[travlerajm]

Well . . . Better = more competitive. Closer scores. The opposite of domination.



That's it? That's all ya got?

You say that conventional doubles strategy won't work, but you don't say what *will* work. You know why?

'Cause pretty much nothing will work. If my 4.0 partner and I had the mad tennis skillz to hang with a good 4.5 guy, we wouldn't be 4.0s. So the match becomes one player (you) dominating the court until we give your partner something she can put away.

Look. The rules allow you to play 8.0, so OK. But let's not pretend that it is a fair fight when you come across me and your average 4.0 guy and the problem is simply that we don't use the right strategy.

Touche. See my contrite post above.

 

[OrangePower]

While I agree with this, where do you think a Top 4.5W + Top 3.5M would stack up to? We had a couple like that in our area and they tended to win pretty well at 8.0M.

Hmm I think a top 4.5 W and top 3.5 M might be the best combination... if the 3.5 M is close to a 4.0 then there is really no weakness for the other team to exploit.

But then again I think this combination is going to be very rare. Not that many top 4.5 women around and I would think they are more likely to be playing 9.0.

 

[SB]

Way back when there was no rule at all about rating discrepancy, I played a 9.0 match in which our opponents were a 5.5 man and a 3.5 woman. IIRC, he was also the top-ranked player in his nat'l age group at the time. It was pretty hilarious.

We managed to win a set by breaking his serve the first time ... just hit every ball back to his partner, who flubbed it. But I think that was the last time he let us touch his serve all day.

We played pretty well, all things considered, but the most difficult thing is that you have to think way too much, because trying to hit every single ball (and I do mean EVERY SINGLE ball) to one person makes you hit some really unnatural shots, shots you would never ever hit in a regular match. There is no flow, no letting go and just playing. By the third set, we were kind of a mess.

But I'd never played a real match against an opponent as good as he was, so it was fun in that way.

 

[Texas Scrambler]

Mixed Doubles Emotion, Always a Mystery. I play a lot of mixed doubles both for recreation and in club competitions. I find the recreation mixed dubs interesting that the ladies usually do the recruiting and they like to recruit high on the talent level. This tends to make the game even more polarized with two players much better on the court. I hear the ladies say they like to play with the power of men but their consistency drops off rapidly. That can't be fun is it?

I know when I get thoroughly outplayed I learn from the experience but never really feel like I have an answer for the talent and hence nothing to work on.

Wouldn't recreational mixed be much better with 3.5 dudes and 4.0 ladies? It never seems to be that way though.

The competition adds another level of emotion and i agree the 4.5 M + 3.5 W are likely to do well. You need power to neutralize a 4.5 M otherwise they cover the court too well. If faced with the situation, mix it up lots with lobs over the dude and shots to the 3.5. All is fair the talent level is different.

My lady partners get lots of attention and I tell them to get every shot they can and I will cover the rest. If I see them not being aggressive, I will let the ball go by and say your shot. You gotta take it.

BTW, you have to mix it up. When I see every ball going to my partner, makes it super easy to poach. You know where the ball is going.

No help to your problem but on the flip side, must feel pretty good when you beat one of the 4.5 M in mixed dubs. It happens.

 

[Costagirl]

I played 8.0 USTA in 2013, but I turned down 3 offers to join 4.5M teams and 2 offers to join 4.5M over 40 teams. Why?

The twisted logic works like this:
My work schedule with my med device startup keeps me busy, so I only end up on court about 2-3 times per month. If I joined a 4.5 team, my ego wouldn't be able to take losing matches to guys who I could beat if I played an extra time per week. So then I'd have to play an extra time per week. But then I'd have less time to work on my startup, which could put its success in jeopardy. If my startup fails, I'll be out on the street with no money for court fees. So I make the tough decision to forgo 4.5.

On the other hand, I can win almost every USTA 8.0 match without needing to practice much, since most of my opponents are 4.0/4.0 teams (until you get to sectionals at least).

I do pack a racquet with me whenever I travel (which is often), and I do bring my racquet to the gym with me to hit against the racquetball wall at least once a week - so that my strokes are ready for social tennis (or USTA 8.0) whenever I get the call!

So your logic makes perfect sense. But do you feel you are getting a good and fun match playing 4.0 when in essence your a stones throw from 4.5? You don't have much time, so you certainly want to make it outstanding when you get out there. How ya doing with that?

 

[MeHere2PlayTennis]

What I think:

ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F > ave 4.0 M + ave 4.0 F
top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F > ave 4.5 M + ave 3.5 F
top 4.5 M + top 3.5 F > top 4.0 M + top 4.0 F

I personally think 2 top 4.0s will beat any type of 4.5/3.5, as long as the 3.5 and 4.5 are really just high for their level not a self rate/ high .5 higher.

It would be interesting to know across various sections if any of the winning teams from their states play all 4.5/3.5 a combination or all 4.0s

 

[MeHere2PlayTennis]

Mixed Doubles Emotion, Always a Mystery. I play a lot of mixed doubles both for recreation and in club competitions. I find the recreation mixed dubs interesting that the ladies usually do the recruiting and they like to recruit high on the talent level. This tends to make the game even more polarized with two players much better on the court. I hear the ladies say they like to play with the power of men but their consistency drops off rapidly. That can't be fun is it?

I know when I get thoroughly outplayed I learn from the experience but never really feel like I have an answer for the talent and hence nothing to work on.

Wouldn't recreational mixed be much better with 3.5 dudes and 4.0 ladies? It never seems to be that way though.

The competition adds another level of emotion and i agree the 4.5 M + 3.5 W are likely to do well. You need power to neutralize a 4.5 M otherwise they cover the court too well. If faced with the situation, mix it up lots with lobs over the dude and shots to the 3.5. All is fair the talent level is different.

My lady partners get lots of attention and I tell them to get every shot they can and I will cover the rest. If I see them not being aggressive, I will let the ball go by and say your shot. You gotta take it.

BTW, you have to mix it up. When I see every ball going to my partner, makes it super easy to poach. You know where the ball is going.

No help to your problem but on the flip side, must feel pretty good when you beat one of the 4.5 M in mixed dubs. It happens.

Texas it used to be 6.5, 7.5, 8.5 etc.... a long time ago, but it changed. I agree that the men's rating are about a step higher than the ladies.

 

[damazing]

I personally think 2 top 4.0s will beat any type of 4.5/3.5, as long as the 3.5 and 4.5 are really just high for their level not a self rate/ high .5 higher.

It would be interesting to know across various sections if any of the winning teams from their states play all 4.5/3.5 a combination or all 4.0s

Alright, you got me curious so I looked at the levels of the various teams that played at 8.0 mixed nationals for 2012. These are the semifinal and final matches. The current 2013 ratings are what I've listed which shows that most of the players were ready to be bumped and in some cases may have gotten bumped two levels:

Team (W/L) [Male current level/Female current level]

SoCal ----- Middle States
4.5/4.0 (L) ------ 4.5/4.5
4.5/4.5 (W) ------ 4.5/4.0
4.5/4.5 (W) ------ 5.0/3.5

SoCal ------ Southern
4.5/4.5 (W) ------ 4.5/4.0
4.5/4.5 (W) ------ 4.0/5.0
4.5/4.0 (L) ------ 4.5/4.0

Southwest ------ Middle States
4.0/4.0 (L) ------ 4.5/3.5
4.0/5.0 (W) ------ 5.0/3.5
4.0/4.5 (L) ------ 4.5/3.5

Only two matches where the stronger male team lost, but in the first one I listed he played with a 3.5 partner and the other team had basically a 9.0 team. In the other one they also played against a basically 9.0 team with the woman being 5.0.

 

[goober]

I personally think 2 top 4.0s will beat any type of 4.5/3.5, as long as the 3.5 and 4.5 are really just high for their level not a self rate/ high .5 higher.

It would be interesting to know across various sections if any of the winning teams from their states play all 4.5/3.5 a combination or all 4.0s

I went through the data one year for 8.0 mixed in my district.

4.5M/3.5F won 80% of the time against 4.0M/4.0F

The losses were all high 4.0M/high 4.0F against weak/average 4.5M and 3.5F. High level 4.5M never loss against a 4.0/4.0 team.