To Fed fans who talk about weak opponents for Djokovic

RF-18

G.O.A.T.
Well it was wrong however i was refering to hard courts and he was not near his best game off clay in 2008. Also with his 2008 hard court game he had work to do.

Whatever dude. As i stated i listen to Laver. Carry on.
Its completely correct that Nadal was not near his best on HCs then. I don't know what the fuss is about tbh.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Well Djokovic, of course, and I think Thiem would beat him. I would even give Zverev an outside chance with the way he was serving. They could make him pay with the subpar level he played in a lot of that tournament.
Lol he weren't that bad. Just inconsistent. Look at the number of bagels and breadsticks. He threw in some poor sets but was crushing the ball at other times. He ain't losing to Zverev or even Thiem lol.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Lol he weren't that bad. Just inconsistent. Look at the number of bagels and breadsticks. He threw in some poor sets but was crushing the ball at other times. He ain't losing to Zverev or even Thiem lol.
Thiem? Yes. That would be a problem for Federer and you can see how he matches up with him. Thiem played a better tournament in 2020 than Federer in 2006 imo. Maybe Zverev couldn't beat him but Djokovic almost certainly would.
 

Third Serve

Hall of Fame
Well Djokovic, of course, and I think Thiem would beat him. I would even give Zverev an outside chance with the way he was serving. They could make him pay with the subpar level he played in a lot of that tournament.
Are we putting 2006 Federer in Djokovic’s place in the draw? If that’s the case, then he would never be able to face Djokovic.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Thiem? Yes. That would be a problem for Federer and you can see how he matches up with him. Thiem played a better tournament in 2020 than Federer in 2006 imo. Maybe Zverev couldn't beat him but Djokovic almost certainly would.
Agree to disagree. How Thiem matches up with 2019 Fed is barely relevant for 2006 lol. Djokovic was patchy himself btw, I can understand giving him the benefit of a doubt due to his pedigree there but not Thiem and certainly not Zverev.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Agree to disagree. How Thiem matches up with 2019 Fed is barely relevant for 2006 lol. Djokovic was patchy himself btw, I can understand giving him the benefit of a doubt due to his pedigree there but not Thiem and certainly not Zverev.
Not so much. Matchups are like that. It's about the type of ball you get from your opponents and how well can you adapt to it. Thiem matches up well with all the big 3 honestly and doesn't have a matchup issue with either of them. That says a lot and I think you're underestimating the level of ball striking and quality from Thiem this past tournament who almost went through 4 top 10 players and Djokodal to win.

Djokovic wasn't patchy before the final though and with the way he was serving, moving and with his consistent level of hitting, he would take that Federer down.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Not so much. Matchups are like that. It's about the type of ball you get from your opponents and how well can you adapt to it. Thiem matches up well with all the big 3 honestly and doesn't have a matchup issue with either of them. That says a lot and I think you're underestimating the level of ball striking and quality from Thiem this past tournament who almost went through 4 top 10 players and Djokodal to win.

Djokovic wasn't patchy before the final though and with the way he was serving, moving and with his consistent level of hitting, he would take that Federer down.
They'd meet in the final though. It's not like Djokovic had a draw that could test him, when he did he was quite poor in the beginning of the SF and bad for big patches of the final.

And Thiem does hit a big ball but Federer is way more vulnerable to it now than he was in 2006. That much should be clear. Thiem played very well in the QF, but his level dropped match on match after that.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Not so much. Matchups are like that. It's about the type of ball you get from your opponents and how well can you adapt to it. Thiem matches up well with all the big 3 honestly and doesn't have a matchup issue with either of them. That says a lot and I think you're underestimating the level of ball striking and quality from Thiem this past tournament who almost went through 4 top 10 players and Djokodal to win.

Djokovic wasn't patchy before the final though and with the way he was serving, moving and with his consistent level of hitting, he would take that Federer down.
I have no problem with theim. He at least has the balls to meet the AO and FO goats on their own ball courts. He strikes a mean ball.
Also all that matters is #8.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
They'd meet in the final though. It's not like Djokovic had a draw that could test him, when he did he was quite poor in the beginning of the SF and bad for big patches of the final.

And Thiem does hit a big ball but Federer is way more vulnerable to it now than he was in 2006. That much should be clear. Thiem played very well in the QF, but his level dropped match on match after that.
Depends on the draw so they might not meet in the final. One could be #1 and one could be #3. Djokovic was bad in the beginning of the SF because he didn't know what to expect because he heard about Federer's injury. He quickly regrouped after falling down 4-1 and played much better.

Well I think Federer was too up and down in 2006 to guys he should have beaten much easier and almost fell down a set and double break in the final. He also only served like 50% in the final which just wouldn't be enough. He also was losing sets for no reason because he was lackluster in big patches of matches, spraying the ball. Those two guys are not letting him get away with that.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
I have no problem with theim. He at least has the balls to meet the AO and FO goats on their own ball courts. He strikes a mean ball.
Also all that matters is #8.
I always said Thiem had the talent when people were clowning him on here. He was a late starter so he is a late bloomer but he is ready now. He does strike a mean ball and I think has a good chance to win a Slam this year if he stays at this level.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
I always said Thiem had the talent when people were clowning him on here. He was a late starter so he is a late bloomer but he is ready now. He does strike a mean ball and I think has a good chance to win a Slam this year if he stays at this level.
I am rooting for him. Also I think the much maligned Zverev is actually coming around. He wants it. He has been practicing like a madman they were saying during the AO.
He has unreal defense.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Not so much. Matchups are like that. It's about the type of ball you get from your opponents and how well can you adapt to it. Thiem matches up well with all the big 3 honestly and doesn't have a matchup issue with either of them. That says a lot and I think you're underestimating the level of ball striking and quality from Thiem this past tournament who almost went through 4 top 10 players and Djokodal to win.

Djokovic wasn't patchy before the final though and with the way he was serving, moving and with his consistent level of hitting, he would take that Federer down.
So would Millman trouble 2006 Fed in the same way going by that logic?
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
I am rooting for him. Also I think the much maligned Zverev is actually coming around. He wants it. He has been practicing like a madman they were saying during the AO.
He has unreal defense.
Zverev was looking kind of scary this past tournament. A player blasting monstrous serves at 80% is very dangerous.
 
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NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Thiem would not be a problem for 06 AO Federer, even as inconsistent as he was. Get outta here with that s.hit. LAWL. Just the idea of Thiem beating 06 Federer at all is totally ridiculous.
Yea 2006 Federer had major problems with Davydenko, Haas and Baghdatis but 2020 Thiem would be no problem for mythical Federer. :laughing:
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Yea 2006 Federer had major problems with Davydenko, Haas and Baghdatis but 2020 Thiem would be no problem for mythical Federer. :laughing:
We're talking about the same Thiem right? The one who couldn't beat Delpo even when he was a walking zombie? Now he's supposed to beat 06 AO Federer just because Fed had an ankle brace on and dropped a few sets here and there? Just the idea of any next gen guys beating any prime versions of any of the Big 3 is enough to dismiss it entirely given the amount of total muggery we've seen from them since their careers began.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
We're talking about the same Thiem right? The one who couldn't beat Delpo even when he was a walking zombie? Now he's supposed to beat 06 AO Federer just because Fed had an ankle brace on and dropped a few sets here and there? Just the idea of any next gen guys beating any prime versions of any of the Big 3 is enough to dismiss it entirely given the amount of total muggery we've seen from them since their careers began.
As far as I know Del Potro didn't play AO unless I missed something. We are not talking about Thiem from 2 or 3 years ago but the one that just played this past Slam, who was very dangerous and yes could beat that Federer who was at best lackluster. The idea that a 3 time Slam finalist, with multiple wins over the big 3, would have no chance against that Federer is beyond reaching.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Thiem at the 2020 AO played better than any of Fed's opponents in AO 2006 imo.2006 AO is probably Fed's least impressive run to a slam title, he got lucky with the draw.
(y) You get it. I'm not saying Thiem would beat Wimbledon or USO Federer, because no he wouldn't, but he would have his chances against that Federer in Australia.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
As far as I know Del Potro didn't play AO unless I missed something. We are not talking about Thiem from 2 or 3 years ago but the one that just played this past Slam, who was very dangerous and yes could beat that Federer who was at best lackluster. The idea that a 3 time Slam finalist, with multiple wins over the big 3, would have no chance against that Federer is beyond reaching.
He could beat that Federer in theory, but he probably wouldn't because he's Thiem. Basically you're saying Thiem would have his chances which loosely translates to believing Thiem would actually win, when ultimately 06 AO Federer still deserves to be considered a fair size favourite over AO 2020 Thiem. The two players simply aren't on the same plane of talent in any way shape or form so the fact that Thiem needs Federer to be under par (pretty significantly at that) to have a chance is the main reason I'm extremely skeptical.

People look at Thiem now and sing a few praises because he's made minor and very slow progressions over his career, but nothing I saw at AO 2020 leads me to throw guys like Haas, Davydenko and Baghdatis under the bus. Basically, I don't think Thiem was much better than any of those guys, I just think it's a lot of recency bias.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Zverev was looking kind of scary this past tournament. A player blasting monstrous serves at 80% is very dangerous.
I saw glimpses of some sick defense in that WTF win against djokovic.
Saw it again at the AO. In that Stan match he was getting back bombs with ease. Stan was not happy.
Have to put it all together. Easier said than done.
 

Noleberic123

G.O.A.T.
I always said Thiem had the talent when people were clowning him on here. He was a late starter so he is a late bloomer but he is ready now. He does strike a mean ball and I think has a good chance to win a Slam this year if he stays at this level.
I don't think these people watched the WTF and Australian Open.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
He could beat that Federer in theory, but he probably wouldn't because he's Thiem. Basically you're saying Thiem would have his chances which loosely translates to believing Thiem would actually win, when ultimately 06 AO Federer still deserves to be considered a fair size favourite over AO 2020 Thiem.

People look at Thiem now and sing a few praises because he's made minor and very slow progressions over his career, but nothing I saw at AO 2020 leads me to throw guys like Haas, Davydenko and Baghdatis under the bus. Basically, I don't think Thiem was much better than any of those guys, I just think it's a lot of recency bias.
Thiem has already beaten Djokovic twice in Slams, and now has beaten Nadal, and probably should have beaten him at 2018 USO match as well but credit to Nadal for being clutch when his back was against the wall, so I don't get this insinuation that he doesn't have what it takes to beat a subpar Federer. Of course Federer would go into the match the favorite but based on what I have seen, Thiem could beat him.

Thiem has made more than minor progessions in his game. A few years ago he was a novice on faster hardcourt and average on slow hardocurt, but now he is winning hardcourt Masters, making WTF finals on fast hardcourt and making AO finals beating multiple good players. So Thiem was not much better than any of those guys this past tournament? Completely disagree.
 

Noleberic123

G.O.A.T.
He could beat that Federer in theory, but he probably wouldn't because he's Thiem. Basically you're saying Thiem would have his chances which loosely translates to believing Thiem would actually win, when ultimately 06 AO Federer still deserves to be considered a fair size favourite over AO 2020 Thiem. The two players simply aren't on the same plane of talent in any way shape or form so the fact that Thiem needs Federer to be under par (pretty significantly at that) to have a chance is the main reason I'm extremely skeptical.

People look at Thiem now and sing a few praises because he's made minor and very slow progressions over his career, but nothing I saw at AO 2020 leads me to throw guys like Haas, Davydenko and Baghdatis under the bus. Basically, I don't think Thiem was much better than any of those guys, I just think it's a lot of recency bias.
Thiem is a better tennis player than either of those guys. His talent level is easily that of a 3,4,5 time grand slam winner.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
I saw glimpses of some sick defense in that WTF win against djokovic.
Saw it again at the AO. In that Stan match he was getting back bombs with ease. Stan was not happy.
Have to put it all together. Easier said than done.
What's scary is how he can maintain serving 80% for a whole Slam tournament and throughout the SF. If he could ever figure out grass he would be lethal. His movement is what would hold him back though and he is not the most athletic guy but he can play lights out when he's feeling it.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Thiem has already beaten Djokovic twice in Slams, and now has beaten Nadal, and probably should have beaten him at 2018 USO match as well but credit to Nadal for being clutch when his back was against the wall, so I don't get this insinuation that he doesn't have what it takes to beat a subpar Federer. Of course Federer would go into the match the favorite but based on what I have seen, Thiem could beat him.

Thiem has made more than minor progessions in his game. A few years ago he was a novice on faster hardcourt now he is winning hardcourt Masters, making WTF finals on fast hardcourt and making AO finals beating multiple good players. So Thiem was not much better than any of those guys this past tournament? Completely disagree.
Thiem has beaten an older version of Djokovic at a couple RG. One of which was 2017 Djoker (which I'm sure you have pointed out to anyone when that topic comes up and you're defending Djokovic and on the other side of the argument) Does he beat the 2011 version or even the 2012-2016 versions. 99% chance he loses all of those, honestly IMO. He's now beaten Nadal at the AO. Great win yes, but also something done by guys like Cilic, Berdych, Verdasco, Gonzalez, and Tsonga. Great players all yes, but Thiem isn't alone in that category. And if Thiem's career doesn't turn out any better than any of those guys then that will be disappointing since the Big 3 aren't in their primes anymore.

Out of interest, what slam do you think Thiem will win this year? Is he beating Nadal at RG? Is he winning Wimbledon? USO has to be his best chance, but having only one realistic chance can't be too comforting for those on team Thiem.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Thiem has beaten an older version of Djokovic at a couple RG. One of which was 2017 Djoker (which I'm sure you have pointed out to anyone when that topic comes up and you're defending Djokovic and on the other side of the argument) Does he beat the 2011 version or even the 2012-2016 versions. 99% chance he loses all of those, honestly IMO. He's now beaten Nadal at the AO. Great win yes, but also something done by guys like Cilic, Berdych, Verdasco, Gonzalez, and Tsonga. Great players all yes, but Thiem isn't alone in that category. And if Thiem's career doesn't turn out any better than any of those guys then that will be disappointing since the Big 3 aren't in their primes anymore.

Out of interest, what slam do you think Thiem will win this year? Is he beating Nadal at RG? Is he winning Wimbledon? USO has to be his best chance, but having only one realistic chance can't be too comforting for those on team Thiem.
Thiem beat Djokovic in 2019 RG so that was a legit great win even without 2017. Whether he would have beaten 2011-2016 versions is not the point since 2006 AO Federer was not the same as 2007 AO Federer, for example. Of course his career will be better than all those guys and already is except for Cilic.

USO is his best chance with a chance at RG if he has some luck.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Thiem beat Djokovic in 2019 RG so that was a legit great win even without 2017. Whether he would have beaten 2011-2016 versions is not the point since 2006 AO Federer was not the same as 2007 AO Federer, for example. Of course his career will be better than all those guys and already is except for Cilic.

USO is his best chance with a chance at RG if he has some luck.
2019 Djokovic is still an "old" Djokovic though, and does not compare favourably to any actual prime years from Djokovic. And when Djokovic starts losing more consistently I expect a lot of Djokovic fans will start saying many of the same things that the Federer fans here are saying. The things that are being disagreed upon now will come back around and probably be agreed upon in future when Djokovic fans are wondering if some 25 year old kid beating a 39 year old Djoker would beat him in his prime or even when he was in his mid thirties.

Because right now, this isn't prime Djoker and he's not improving by the day just because he's still winning slams. What Djoker is doing now is what Federer would've been doing in 2015 if not for Djokovic himself. Maybe I'm stubborn, but you'll have an exceptionally hard time convincing me otherwise.

As for Thiem, the problem here is that while Thiem's career is already better than most of those guys, why is that? He's very good on clay so he's made a few RG finals, but on HC and grass he isn't really that special. The problem for tennis post Big 3 is that it looks like the actual level required to win a slam, and beat guys like the Big 3 is going to go down. If Thiem beats Zverev to win a RG or two in future and the Big 3 are retired or legitimately washed up so much that they aren't really a slam winning threat, does that make Thiem better than Tomas Berdych or Cilic, or Roddick for example?

We can bible thump stats all day long and say well "this guy has 3 slams and this guy has 1, 3>1 QED" but it all seems a bit too simple and hollow to me. But that's just my 2 cents. I don't want to force my opinion on anyone, and I honestly don't have an ulterior motive in saying this last bit. The "GOAT" race or whatever the F it's being called now bores me to tears, so I'm specifically talking more about the future of tennis here. It doesn't sit that well with me that Thiem can be relatively unimpressive for much of his career so far, especially on grass and HC, and will probably end up with more slam wins than the aforementioned guys simply because the timing works out better for him.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
2019 Djokovic is still an "old" Djokovic though, and does not compare favourably to any actual prime years from Djokovic. And when Djokovic starts losing more consistently I expect a lot of Djokovic fans will start saying many of the same things that the Federer fans here are saying. The things that are being disagreed upon now will come back around and probably be agreed upon in future when Djokovic fans are wondering if some 25 year old kid beating a 39 year old Djoker would beat him in his prime or even when he was in his mid thirties.

Because right now, this isn't prime Djoker and he's not improving by the day just because he's still winning slams. What Djoker is doing now is what Federer would've been doing in 2015 if not for Djokovic himself. Maybe I'm stubborn, but you'll have an exceptionally hard time convincing me otherwise.

As for Thiem, the problem here is that while Thiem's career is already better than most of those guys, why is that? He's very good on clay so he's made a few RG finals, but on HC and grass he isn't really that special. The problem for tennis post Big 3 is that it looks like the actual level required to win a slam, and beat guys like the Big 3 is going to go down. If Thiem beats Zverev to win a RG or two in future and the Big 3 are retired or legitimately washed up so much that they aren't really a slam winning threat, does that make Thiem better than Tomas Berdych or Cilic, or Roddick for example?

We can bible thump stats all day long and say well "this guy has 3 slams and this guy has 1, 3>1 QED" but it all seems a bit too simple and hollow to me. But that's just my 2 cents. I don't want to force my opinion on anyone, and I honestly don't have an ulterior motive in saying this last bit. The "GOAT" race or whatever the F it's being called now bores me to tears, so I'm specifically talking more about the future of tennis here. It doesn't sit that well with me that Thiem can be relatively unimpressive for much of his career so far, especially on grass and HC, and will probably end up with more slam wins than the aforementioned guys simply because the timing works out better for him.
I don't think we have to wait for Djokovic to reach 39 to conclude those revelations since it goes without saying that someone who is 39 is far from their peak age.

Federer did in 2017 what he would have done in 2015 without Djokovic though...

I don't think you have been watching Thiem play on hardcourt for the last 9 months to make these revelations.

You must have been one of those Thiem naysayers because I don't understand where of all this is coming from tbh. The guy is playing at a really high level and deserves the success he is receiving because of it. He has made 3 Slam finals which is more than any of those guys, except Cilic, because he is simply better than them, bottom line.
 
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tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Are we talking about the Thiem who had 3 consecutive losses on HC at the ATP Cup to Hurcakz, Coric and Schwartzman, just last month ?

And he got Fritz, Bolt, Schwartzman and Mannarino to get to QF at AO. Cannot be a more favorable draw. A point here or there against Nadal and it would have been the same old story.

Granted he played really well at YEC but he is far from a comparison with Berdych, Cilic, etc.
 
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