To rotate or not to rotate (one handed backhand and hip rotation)

GregSV

GregSV

Semi-Pro
Hi all,

I was having this discussion with my coach the other day about my 1hbh: he would like to see more hip rotation and a square ending with both feet more or less parallel. I have a slight tendency to fall backwards with my 1hbh, which might be due to my hitting the wall much lately for grooving the shot. His idea is to get my body more in the shot (for more power) as well as have a quicker recovery. I feel I have enough power (I’m a big guy) and think I can fix this problem of falling backwards. But this hip rotation… it feels weird, like purposely losing the control I’m trying to build up. Most pros with a one hander I see on YT (Federer, Dimitrov, Henin, Haas) hardly ever rotate or end up square, sometimes their backfoot even crosses the front foot (Wawrinka being an exception and an extreme one).

Shouldn’t getting your body into the shot sideways give you enough power? Is this old school versus new school? The young lads from top tennis training though propagate to stay sideways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKSr14cUn9Q

Confused... Any thoughts, ideas?
 
None of my coaches (4 here and 2 in Europe) said/wanted that.

The current one emphasizes mainly a relaxed motion and sometimes finishing high, even holding for a second that position.
 
Fintft said:
None of my coaches (4 here and 2 in Europe) said/wanted that.

The current one emphasizes mainly a relaxed motion and sometimes finishing high, even holding for a second that position.
Click to expand...

Thx, I would be curious to hear what other coaches preach nowadays. I have an excellent coach, who already made me a much better player over the past half year, just wondering if I should follow him in this.

Of course I'd love to have a super modern Wawrinka bh, but the classic sideways model of Federer/Haas/Henin with a high finish just seems more realistic and easier to emulate, esp since I'm in my forties.
 
Fwiw, among the coaches that I've had, those who had the higher credentials prefered "stay sideways" approach. Sure, you can have a recovery phase in which you end up square with the net after the shot, but it's long after the ball has left your racquet.
 
I tried to get more rotation into my 1 hander, and I ended up hurting my back a little bit.

However, I feel like there should be a fine line between rotating more and putting body weight into the shot. From what it sounds like, you don't have a smooth power transfer on the shot, so your coach might be trying to get you to step in more. Also, maybe he is trying to get you to coil up more on the backswing. It seems a lot of people who hit 1 handers tend to stay almost facing the net on their windup which doesn't give you any power. Just my thoughts without seeing a video.
 
Thx for the feedback.. No, I dont think not coiling enough or not stepping into the shot is the problem. I think it might be more of a confidence thing as I changed my grip to full eastern just a few month ago. Still, even if my BH lags behind my FH, if I’m on I can hit a pretty powerful shot with it.

You mentioned a fine line, someone else ‘a relaxed motion’. Sometimes I do rotate more, but it depends on the shot. Most of all I like my back leg to freely move as a counterweight; actively and purposely bringing it foreward to get more rotation feels forced and unnatural to me.

Someone in the Wawrinka thread mentioned two approaches to the modern BH: the full torso rotation of Wawrinka, and the more sideways approach but with an extreme, whip like ending of the forearm (Gasquet and others). I think I’m leaning towards the latter more. I’m just trying to clear my mind here, posting a video would take it a step further.
 
Btw, holding the high finish end position for a second is a great tip, also for your shadow swings. It gives you direct feedback about balance, control. I think Jim McClennan mentioned seeing Del Potro doing this while practising.
 
disagree. holding a high finish is the old school way that has nothing to do with how wawa hits it.

need to see your video to say where the issue is, if any.

more rotation does equal more power. similar to how the modern FH generates power.
 
geca said:
disagree. holding a high finish is the old school way that has nothing to do with how wawa hits it.

need to see your video to say where the issue is, if any.

more rotation does equal more power. similar to how the modern FH generates power.
Click to expand...

I know, I have repeatedly made the distinction between the classic or sideways 1hbh style and Wawrinka's. Agree about the power thing as well. My question is, which is the better one to emulate for a not so super young player, and I wanted to set up a discussion about this and maybe hear about others' experiences.

Say I'm betweem a 3.5 and a 4.0 player and maybe will be 4.5 one day (I have come late to the game but have made big steps in a few years; I am pretty dedicated, some even say obsessed with it). Anyway: will I be able to reach my full potential with the old style bh, a way of hitting that also feels more natural to me? I tend to think I can, as there are plenty of top players hitting the bh this way. If it's good enough for them, it;s certainly for me.
 
GregSV said:
I know, I have repeatedly made the distinction between the classic or sideways 1hbh style and Wawrinka's. Agree about the power thing as well. My question is, which is the better one to emulate for a not so super young player, and I wanted to set up a discussion about this and maybe hear about others' experiences.

Say I'm between a 3.5 and a 4.0 player and maybe will be 4.5 one day (I have come late to the game but have made big steps in a few years; I am pretty dedicated, some even say obsessed with it). Anyway: will I be able to reach my full potential with the old style bh, a way of hitting that also feels more natural to me? I tend to think I can, as there are plenty of top players hitting the bh this way. If it's good enough for them, it;s certainly for me.
Click to expand...

In order to figure that one out, you need a pro who is both competent and willing to work through these differing concepts with you. As a developing player, you should have the option of experimenting.
 
ARKustom93 said:
In order to figure that one out, you need a pro who is both competent and willing to work through these differing concepts with you. As a developing player, you should have the option of experimenting.
Click to expand...

Oh yes, he’s open minded and very much willing to do so. Just wanted to spread the discussion out towards the kind and experienced people of the TW forum...
 
with the modern frames and strings, the old school backhand falls short of what is possible.

not only in terms of power and spin, but also in terms of the strike zone. To be able to rip a ball above your head IS a weapon. And in order to rip that ball you will have a follow through that ends by the right hip.
 
If this is really what your pro said than I question his competence. You absolutely must have your hips sideways at contact for a successful 1hb backhand.

GregSV said:
Hi all,

I was having this discussion with my coach the other day about my 1hbh: he would like to see more hip rotation and a square ending with both feet more or less parallel. I have a slight tendency to fall backwards with my 1hbh, which might be due to my hitting the wall much lately for grooving the shot. His idea is to get my body more in the shot (for more power) as well as have a quicker recovery. I feel I have enough power (I’m a big guy) and think I can fix this problem of falling backwards. But this hip rotation… it feels weird, like purposely losing the control I’m trying to build up. Most pros with a one hander I see on YT (Federer, Dimitrov, Henin, Haas) hardly ever rotate or end up square, sometimes their backfoot even crosses the front foot (Wawrinka being an exception and an extreme one).

Shouldn’t getting your body into the shot sideways give you enough power? Is this old school versus new school? The young lads from top tennis training though propagate to stay sideways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKSr14cUn9Q

Confused... Any thoughts, ideas?
Click to expand...
 
GregSV said:
But this hip rotation… it feels weird, like purposely losing the control I’m trying to build up. Most pros with a one hander I see on YT (Federer, Dimitrov, Henin, Haas) hardly ever rotate or end up square, sometimes their backfoot even crosses the front foot (Wawrinka being an exception and an extreme one).

Shouldn’t getting your body into the shot sideways give you enough power? Is this old school versus new school? The young lads from top tennis training though propagate to stay sideways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKSr14cUn9Q

Confused... Any thoughts, ideas?
Click to expand...

I don't like this vid above too well. Imo the key is to understand how to end with the shoulders parallel, but not the feet. I like how Stan does it here at :55secs....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA7eDroVxM&feature=player_detailpage#t=55

notice how he comes up on the front leg, then settles back down to the balance between both legs. DJ does the same most times with his 2 hander too.
 
I've been told that sometimes momentum takes you back to have your shoulder parallel to the net but you should NOT try to do it on purpose. I do find out that by ending the parallel shoulder to the net, helps me recover. Of course, I also hit open stance back hands that momentum puts me back on position to hit my FH. Might look fancy when the ball goes in but my couch hated it so I don't use it anymore :(
 
Merlin703 said:
I've been told that sometimes momentum takes you back to have your shoulder parallel to the net but you should NOT try to do it on purpose. I do find out that by ending the parallel shoulder to the net, helps me recover.
Click to expand...

I think you’re onto something here, that it shouldn’t be a dogma but happen while having a relaxed stroke.

If there are any biomechanics specialists here please correct me if I’m wrong… but if one stays sideways till contact, rotation after contact won’t give you more power, right? So the only benefit will be a quicker recovery.
 
GregSV said:
I think you’re onto something here, that it shouldn’t be a dogma but happen while having a relaxed stroke.

If there are any biomechanics specialists here please correct me if I’m wrong… but if one stays sideways till contact, rotation after contact won’t give you more power, right? So the only benefit will be a quicker recovery.
Click to expand...

Check out some Guga slo-mo BH's. Classic setup and take back with extreme shoulder rotation through the swing, but if you watch closely, you'll notice that there is almost no hip rotation, everything(coiling/uncoiling) happens from the waist up, off a solid, balanced stance. And when it comes to 'relaxed', gonna be hard to find a better example ...
 
I think a player should learn the basic 1hbh staying sideways thru the entire stroke, then, after he can hit it well, he's free to rotate his hips and torso into the shot, if he desires a component of sidespin to the ball.
 
GregSV said:
I think you’re onto something here, that it shouldn’t be a dogma but happen while having a relaxed stroke.

If there are any biomechanics specialists here please correct me if I’m wrong… but if one stays sideways till contact, rotation after contact won’t give you more power, right? So the only benefit will be a quicker recovery.
Click to expand...
To be honest, I don't know. I don't want to mislead you. However, we all have different body types. Our bodies are stronger in some areas that others (might not work for all). I've been told shoulder rotation comes as a consequence of using the side stroke and momentum. Forcing it, can create other problems. Also, the shoulder rotation happens after the ball has been hit. At the moment of impacting the ball, shoulders are not facing the net. Also, I believe the feet kind of gently follow the shoulder a it (I can't remember now that I think about it ). My open stance backhand is only use when I'm desperate. I'm not sure why I do it... it just happens (trying not to since I really want to play pretty tennis :mrgreen: ).
 
geca said:
I like Mauro in general.... but in this video he is teaching an out-of-date stroke.
Click to expand...

I actually liked the video. What he says is what I've been told. I have also been told the shoulder rotates just as a desperate move.

So if that is an out of date stroke, what is the new stroke? It sounds like you are saying the "out of date" stroke shouldn't be used since it was replaced.
 
Merlin703 said:
I actually liked the video. What he says is what I've been told. I have also been told the shoulder rotates just as a desperate move.

So if that is an out of date stroke, what is the new stroke? It sounds like you are saying the "out of date" stroke shouldn't be used since it was replaced.
Click to expand...

he is missing the supination, a critical part that not only adds a ton of racket head speed for power and spin, but also adds control.

the stroke he demonstrated has the racket face opening on the way up. this type of swing is useless against balls above the chest.
 
Actually - seems most of the discussions on the 1hbh are missing the point... stuff like staying sideways or opening up, left hand going back for counter balance, high follow through etc... these are all peripheral things that should happen naturally if the player knows how the racket should approach the ball.
 
Merlin703 said:
I actually liked the video. What he says is what I've been told. I have also been told the shoulder rotates just as a desperate move.

So if that is an out of date stroke, what is the new stroke? It sounds like you are saying the "out of date" stroke shouldn't be used since it was replaced.
Click to expand...

I also like the video. Mind you, it's only about one aspect of th 1hbh, the role of the non dominant arm.

Mauro was Jennifer Capriati's personal coach when she was in her teens, so he must have done something right.
 
geca said:
Actually - seems most of the discussions on the 1hbh are missing the point... stuff like staying sideways or opening up, left hand going back for counter balance, high follow through etc... these are all peripheral things that should happen naturally if the player knows how the racket should approach the ball.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I don't think these are peripheral, but basic things in a discussion like this. They help to determine where one stands, what one's position is re the 1hbh. Playing and discussing tennis are two different things.
 
GregSV said:
Sorry, but I don't think these are peripheral, but basic things in a discussion like this. They help to determine where one stands, what one's position is re the 1hbh. Playing and discussing tennis are two different things.
Click to expand...

Get around to watching Guga's BH?
 
GregSV said:
No, not yet. Maybe tonight... wait, I have a tennis lesson tonight, so Im gonna try the Guga BH myself first and then watch when I get home :)
Click to expand...

In that case, just make sure to ask your pro to guide you through it, ... there's a lot more to that stroke than what I mentioned in my basic description;)
 
ARKustom93 said:
In that case, just make sure to ask your pro to guide you through it, ... there's a lot more to that stroke than what I mentioned in my basic description;)
Click to expand...

I know, and I'd have to get my neck into that Linda Blair rotation mode... and maybe it'll get stuck... Ouch!
 
geca said:
he is missing the supination, a critical part that not only adds a ton of racket head speed for power and spin, but also adds control.

the stroke he demonstrated has the racket face opening on the way up. this type of swing is useless against balls above the chest.
Click to expand...

"supination" on the one handed backhand... OK so you are saying that this replaced (no longer to be used) the shot he is demonstrating in his video, right?

"supination" means closing the face of the racquet during the follow through? Is that right?

I know this is a bit off topic with the thread but I really want to understand what you are saying so I can look into it further. I have been told to keep the racquet face at pretty much 90 degrees or sometimes just a tad close (don't open) but I haven't been told to close it either.
Here are some pics from one of the guys. I don't the face of the racquet being closed.
The last pic is after contact and how he doesn't square his shoulders with the net.
2eol4dl.jpg

33lmo9w.jpg

2yukgfn.jpg

1sdwk6.jpg
 
Merlin703 said:
I've been told that sometimes momentum takes you back to have your shoulder parallel to the net but you should NOT try to do it on purpose. .....................:(
Click to expand...

i like this advise here
too much "forced hip rotation", will make you loose control of your shot
 
@Merlin - sorry.... I should have used external shoulder rotation, instead of supination... this action keeps the face slightly closed as seen on the Fed picture you posted. His swing CAN take big cuts at high balls. Mauro's can't..

as long as a player understands how the arm and the racket should work, he will figure out how much rotation is optimal.

I wouldn't look any particular pro to emulate how much rotation. Your own body type should determine that.
 
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I am 2HBH but modern pros use limited shoulder rotation at times. Wawrinka will open the shoulder up a bit. But, to me, they are not doing a full opening of the hips and shoulders like 2HBH player does.

I watched an older guy who played on pro tour decades ago and he gave his hitting partner a tip. I clearly heard him say "keep your chest facing the side fence on the follow through more". He was telling the guy to not open the chest to face the net.

I think a bit of shoulder rotation is fine but you don't want to fully open the hips/shoulders or bring the back foot around.

I do hit a 1 handed slice and like to get the feel of the back arm and back leg counterweight and pulling the foot back.
 
2 Simple rules in my baseline game.

If you have time, hit a closed stance forehand (stepping into the court, taking it early)
If you have time, rotate hips/shoulders into 1hbh.

Obviously if you are dealing with a deep ball or pace, open stance forehands, backhand should be played staying sideways focusing more on timing and clean contact.
 
Geca

I find your take on Mauro's video interesting. Seems like a good video to me and good advice. I disagree about your statement, that this style of backhand, stroke style, won't be good for high balls. Changing your grip will help with higher balls and in my opinion, the stroke should be as shown. You will of course rotate your shoulder a bit on certain shots more than others. Tommy Haas has a picture perfect backhand IMO. Also in that picture of Federer, his racquet is square at contact, not closed. He has a traditional eastern backhand grip. Wawrinka's is slightly more extreme and thus can handle the high ball better than Federer.
 
nobody on the tour hits the 1hbh like Mauro demonstrated. Haas, Fed, Wawa, they basically all hit the same way.

You don't change grip to handle high balls. Impossible to find the proper grip in fast exchanges.

I can rip balls just above my shoe strings, or 2 feet above my head.... the same grip. You let Mauro extend that motion to 2 feet above his head, he'd pop one into the sky.

Again, I like the guy. And maybe his actual motion is different. But what he showed was clearly wrong..... too bad he didn't hit a single ball in that video.
 
the Wawrinka backhand, is not difficult technique, once you know the principle and get a feel for it. But the key is knowing the principle. My friend explained it to me, i would have never figured it out myself. I do not see this principle in any of the Youtube videos preofessing "how to wawrinka bh", although some of these vids add to what my friend told me.
 
Rafaboy said:
the Wawrinka backhand, is not difficult technique, once you know the principle and get a feel for it. But the key is knowing the principle. My friend explained it to me, i would have never figured it out myself. I do not see this principle in any of the Youtube videos preofessing "how to wawrinka bh", although some of these vids add to what my friend told me.
Click to expand...

Please continuo... about this principle...
 
GregSV said:
Please continuo... about this principle...
Click to expand...

You can test the principle in this way.

Ask your buddy to drop feed, or you can toss a ball up in the air, let it bounce up to chest height.

Now, with a Eastern backhand grip and the racket head in an upright position, swing the leading edge towards the target and brush the inside of the ball and TRY to produce SIDESPIN.

Do not TRY to produce topspin. Do not TRY to hit the back of the ball. Do not TRY to square up the strings to meet the ball

Always inside, always side spin.

But look at what the ball actually does - a beautiful topspin shot.

Repeat this 1000 times and you will understand the 1hbh.
 
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