To those of y'all who think Djokovic ain't in Tier 2

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
45 singles titles including 7 Slams(only RG missing), 3 WTFs, 19 Masters, 9 500s.
8 years inside the top 3(at the end of 2014), 103 weeks at #1(and counting), 2 YE#1.
Currently inside the top 10 in the following categories:

Career W/L%
HC, clay, grass, outdoor W/L%
Most Slam match wins(175)
Most Masters wins(218)
Most top 10 wins
Most Slam finals/semi finals/quarter finals
Most consecutive match wins
Most prize money
Most weeks at number #1

Also one of only six players in the Open era to reach multiple finals in all four Slams.

14 consecutive Slam SF and 21(and counting) Slam QF(only Federer has done better)

Oh and I almost forgot, his 2011 is one of the greatest years in tennis history and is the inspiration for my username. So do any of y'all wanna still tell me he ain't Tier 2? Come on- give me your best shot! :)
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
People will order tiers differently.

Nole isn't in my tier 2 because I have smaller gaps of ability between my tiers.
 

Logic

Semi-Pro
Open Era Tier 2? Yes (although IMO he's 2b for now).

All Time Tier 2? IMO, not yet.
 
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kiki

Banned
Open Era? not by far

Look, one has to evaluate the impact a player has had on the overall sucess and popularity of the game.

he is faaaar away to have the same presence as a Mc enroe or as a Connors; maybe he´ll reach Lendl but he is still far away.

Of the modern players, only Federer and, maybe Nadal can fill, partially those Borg,Connors,Mc Enroe boots.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Open Era? not by far

Look, one has to evaluate the impact a player has had on the overall sucess and popularity of the game.

he is faaaar away to have the same presence as a Mc enroe or as a Connors; maybe he´ll reach Lendl but he is still far away.

Of the modern players, only Federer and, maybe Nadal can fill, partially those Borg,Connors,Mc Enroe boots.

Yes, I'm talking Open era only. And I'm only talking about achievements, not impact on the sport which personally I couldn't care less about.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Where would you put Nole Nathaniel?

I tend to split this group of players into two or even three: Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi, Djokovic.

Based on a mix of accomplishments and the eye test, perhaps a sensible pair of groupings would be:

Non-Goat tier 1 (tier 2): Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Agassi
Non-Goat tier 2 (3): Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Djokovic

So this would put Djokovic in like.. tier 3.

Djokovic still has several years remaining in his career at potentially the highest level, so he should end up being about on the level of Connors and Lendl or possibly slightly lower or higher.
 
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Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
I tend to split this group into two or even three: Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi, Djokovic.

Based on a mix of accomplishments and the eye test, perhaps a sensible pair of groupings would be:

Non-Goat tier 1 (tier 2): Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Agassi
Non-Goat tier 2 (3): Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Djokovic

So this would put Djokovic in like.. tier 3.

Djokovic still has several years remaining in his career at potentially the highest level, so he should end up being about on the level of Connors and Lendl or possibly slightly lower or higher.

I disagree with you there Nathaniel. IMO Nole is closer to Tier 2 than Tier 3 though I would probably put him at the bottom of Tier 2.
This is how I would break it down:

Tier 2- Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Agassi, Nole.

Tier3- Becker, Wilander, Edberg.

I'm surprised you only have Novak at the bottom of Tier 3. :(
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
I disagree with you there Nathaniel. IMO Nole is closer to Tier 2 than Tier 3 though I would probably put him at the bottom of Tier 2.
This is how I would break it down:

Tier 2- Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Agassi, Nole

Tier3- Becker, Wilander, Edberg.

I'm surprised you only have Novak at the bottom of Tier 3. :(

I don't have him at the bottom of tier 3 - they are mentioned in rough chronological order.

At the moment he has way less titles than Lendl, Connors, McEnroe and Agassi as well as substantially less longevity than at least Lendl, Connors and Agassi. He has one very dominant year but so do Connors and McEnroe.

His pure accomplishments are more similar to Becker, Wilander and Edberg. If he finishes a third year as the world no.1, it would be a big deal.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
I don't have him at the bottom of tier 3 - they are mentioned in rough chronological order.

At the moment he has way less titles than Lendl, Connors, McEnroe and Agassi as well as substantially less longevity than at least Lendl, Connors and Agassi. He has one very dominant year but so do Connors and McEnroe.

His pure accomplishments are more similar to Becker, Wilander and Edberg. If he finishes a third year as the world no.1, it would be a big deal.

I think he'll get that third YE#1:wink:. So what else does he need to do IYO to be a solid Tier 2? :)
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
I think he'll get that third YE#1:wink:. So what else does he need to do IYO to be a solid Tier 2? :)

He just needs to keep on keeping on, as he has been doing in tremendous fashion for the last several years. If he takes his titles tally well into the 50's and adds another YE#1/Slam, then that would be enough for me to separate him from Becker, Wilander and Edberg without any doubts. So, about 1 more year of tennis then, probably (but can't take anything for granted).
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
He just needs to keep on keeping on, as he has been doing in tremendous fashion for the last several years. If he takes his titles tally well into the 50's and adds another YE#1/Slam, then that would be enough for me to separate him from Becker, Wilander and Edberg without any doubts. So, about 1 more year of tennis then, probably (but can't take anything for granted).

Fair enough Nathaniel. Time will tell! :)
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
To actually surpass Lendl and the rest (in a manner that leaves little doubt), perhaps Djokovic would need something like:

4 YE#1
10/11 Slams (people are fond of the double digits)
5 YEC's
70 titles
Career Slam

If he reached 11/12 Slams then we could probably legitimately ask if he's on a level with Borg/Sampras, especially if he wins RG at some point, and at that point most will probably invent some new tier 2 which includes Djokovic, Borg, Sampras, with Federer and Nadal in tier 1 (Open Era).
 
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LazyNinja19

Banned
The thing is, you so desperately crave of other posters' approval, Djoko2011.
You should enjoy tennis more, and not force everyone to acknowledge legendary status to Novak.

All of these talks about "Tiers/Goatness" etc. are subjective, and there never will be an official lists for such titles. So why waste hours & hours on this, and still reach no conclusion?!

Tell me, has ANY single thread on such topics been resolved ever, where everyone agreed upon one final verdict? No.
And this thread will follow suit.

No offense!
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
Not every question needs to be resolved to be enjoyable to discuss, though.

It's true though that Djokovic fans tend to seek more approval than others probably due to the context of Nole being a genuinely great player who has happened to play mainly in the shadows of two colossi of tennis.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
The thing is, you so desperately crave of other posters' approval, Djoko2011.
You should enjoy tennis more, and not force everyone to acknowledge legendary status to Novak.

All of these talks about "Tiers/Goatness" etc. are subjective, and there never will be an official lists for such titles. So why waste hours & hours on this, and still reach no conclusion?!

Tell me, has ANY single thread on such topics been resolved ever, where everyone agreed upon one final verdict? No.
And this thread will follow suit.

No offense!

Haha it's not that I crave anyone's approval babe- I just want the whole world to realise what a great career Nole has had so far!! :)
 

LazyNinja19

Banned
Haha it's not that I crave anyone's approval babe- I just want the whole world to realise what a great career Nole has had so far!! :)

Of course, Djokovic is a great player, and will go down as even greater. I just meant that such discussions are futile.
I can guarantee you, that this thread will go on for couple more days, get around 10-15 pages, and then when everyone gets tired, it'll faint away. And then someone else will start a new similar thread.
And people's opinions will stay the same after the thread gets over. It's a vicious cycle.

Just saving you from all that trouble ;)
 

Down_the_line

G.O.A.T.
Will this ever stop?? How much do we have to talk about Djokovic and what tier of player he's in? As somebody already said, there's a lot left to go in his career so let's just let it play out.

Besides, tiers is a totally subjective topic. Everyone has different tiers so you'll never get a conclusive answer. The best objective answer is that he's in a group along with Agassi, Connors and Rosewall, but below Lendl. Given his consistency at all Slams and on all surfaces and number of Masters titles, I'd say he's surpassed McEnroe, but only by a bit. McEnroe makes up for his smaller number of finals and less consistency with more weeks and consecutive weeks at #1.

EDIT: I see LazyNinja has already pretty much summed up what I think.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Of course, Djokovic is a great player, and will go down as even greater. I just meant that such discussions are futile.
I can guarantee you, that this thread will go on for couple more days, get around 10-15 pages, and then when everyone gets tired, it'll faint away. And then someone else will start a new similar thread.

Just saving you from all that trouble ;)

To be honest mate this thread was really just my way of responding to some posters in another thread who were trying to trash Novak's career and imply that he isn't even in Tier 3 yet which is just ridiculous to me. Anyone that attacks my guy better realise that I'm gonna bite back! :):wink:
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
To be honest mate this thread was really just my way of responding to some posters in another thread who were trying to trash Novak's career and imply that he isn't even in Tier 3 yet which is just ridiculous to me. Anyone that attacks my guy better realise that I'm gonna bite back! :):wink:

That's the spirit! :wink:
 

eldanger25

Hall of Fame
I don't have him at the bottom of tier 3 - they are mentioned in rough chronological order.

At the moment he has way less titles than Lendl, Connors, McEnroe and Agassi as well as substantially less longevity than at least Lendl, Connors and Agassi. He has one very dominant year but so do Connors and McEnroe.

His pure accomplishments are more similar to Becker, Wilander and Edberg. If he finishes a third year as the world no.1, it would be a big deal.

I think he's clearly past Becker, Wilander and Edberg - he has a lot of what they each have as strengths, achievement-wise, while none of them have done what he's done in Australia, where he put his stamp on one of the four majors by age 25.
 

Chico

Banned
To be honest mate this thread was really just my way of responding to some posters in another thread who were trying to trash Novak's career and imply that he isn't even in Tier 3 yet which is just ridiculous to me. Anyone that attacks my guy better realise that I'm gonna bite back! :):wink:

Step-Brothers-2.gif
 

President

Legend
It depends on your definition of tiers, but he is very close to McEnroe and Agassi right now and clearly above Becker, Edberg, and Wilander. For me, that is worthy of a tier 2 spot. For sure, barring some horrible injury, by the end of his career he will be at the top of tier 2 (at least) with Connors and Lendl.
 

Maximagq

Banned


Friends, Brethren, countrymen, lend me your ears. A great war is upon us. Even as I speak, our friends are out there, fighting for our hero. Sons of Serbia, I am Maximagq, and here I see, a whole army of my countrymen, here in support of Nole. We have come to support as fine men, and fine men we are. What will we do to support Nole? Will we fight? Yes, when we are dying in our beds, many years from now, will we be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance. Just one chance. To come back here, and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take, Nole's life! Adje Srbija!
 

Chico

Banned
Friends, Brethren, countrymen, lend me your ears. A great war is upon us. Even as I speak, our friends are out there, fighting for our hero. Sons of Serbia, I am Maximagq, and here I see, a whole army of my countrymen, here in support of Nole. We have come to support as fine men, and fine men we are. What will we do to support Nole? Will we fight? Yes, when we are dying in our beds, many years from now, will we be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance. Just one chance. To come back here, and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take, Nole's life! Adje Srbija!

Maximagq. Take your Èored down the left flank. Djokovic2011, follow the King's banner down the center. Noleberic123, take your company right, after you pass the wall. Forth, and fear no darkness! Arise! Arise, Riders of Novak! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered! A sword day... a red day... ere the sun rises!
Ride now!... Ride now!... Ride! Ride to ruin and the world's ending!

rohirrim-charge.gif
 
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Mayonnaise

Banned
Maximagq. Take your Èored down the left flank. Djokovic2011, follow the King's banner down the center. Noleberic123, take your company right, after you pass the wall. Forth, and fear no darkness! Arise! Arise, Riders of Novak! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered! A sword day... a red day... ere the sun rises!
Ride now!... Ride now!... Ride! Ride to ruin and the world's ending!

rohirrim-charge.gif

Are those zombies? ;)
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Not sure about this tier thing. there is not much separating the greats. Novak Djokovic is bottom tier 2 I suppose maybe with Wilander. Nathaniel's rating is too complicated.
Novak Djokovic conversion rate at the US Open is an issue. If he converted just one more he would be right alongside Lendl. If Djokovic wins two more majors I put him above them all.
 

President

Legend
Been there and got the teashirt (a full set of 'em by now)! :wink:

I come to Manchester about twice a year, to visit my uncle and aunt who live there. Do either you or Djokovic2011 play tennis? Regardless, next time I'm there we should definitely have a TTW meet up.
 

Noleberic123

G.O.A.T.
@djokovic2011 This shouldn't be a discussion, who cares what y'all think :)

Also he to contend with the 2 greatest players of all time, so im saying he had the toughest field to compete with in history
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
I come to Manchester about twice a year, to visit my uncle and aunt who live there. Do either you or Djokovic2011 play tennis? Regardless, next time I'm there we should definitely have a TTW meet up.

Hi mate. I used to play on the LTA as a teenager but sadly I don't really play much these days. And for sure we can get together when you next come down to Manchester, I think that would be really fun! I just hope the weather will be like it has been recently. :wink:
 

Logic

Semi-Pro
Also he to contend with the 2 greatest players of all time, so im saying he had the toughest field to compete with in history

Two players don't constitute an entire field (your logic is faulty: if a player's main rivals are great, that doesn't mean the entire field is necessarily great).

The point is that it's hard to compare entire fields from different eras, so I think it's best to avoid the "oh, but Player X faced tougher competition" argument, since it's hard to justify and often breaks down into the standard "weak era/strong era" rubbish.
 

Noleberic123

G.O.A.T.
Two players don't constitute an entire field (your logic is faulty: if a player's main rivals are great, that doesn't mean the entire field is necessarily great).

The point is that it's hard to compare entire fields from different eras, so I think it's best to avoid the "oh, but Player X faced tougher competition" argument, since it's hard to justify and often breaks down into the standard "weak era/strong era" rubbish.

Murray, wawrinka, del potro, berdych, ferrer.

Arent all of those fantastic players that are extremely tough to beat??

And then you add that with fedal
 

The Green Mile

Bionic Poster
Yeah, I think the Djoker is a solid tier 2 player right now. At the end of his career, imo, he may even be scratching at the door of tier 1... scratching.
 

Logic

Semi-Pro
Murray, wawrinka, del potro, berdych, ferrer.

Arent all of those fantastic players that are extremely tough to beat??

And then you add that with fedal

Sure, they are all great players - I would never deny that.

But you made the much stronger claim that the field was the toughest ever.

Have you gone throughout all of tennis history and compared all the different fields (down to at least Berdych-level players)?

I have no problem with people saying "Player X faced tough competition", but it just annoys me when people use superlatives ("the toughest") because it's disrespectful to the rest of tennis history.
 
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