To what level can S&V take you?

[Ballinbob]

It is really only at a D1 / Pro level do you really start to see why S&V died out. Even at a D1 level, there are still quite a few guys out there who make their living at the net (one of the USC guys does, as does one player from Duke, new recruit at Texas also does to an extent).


At a pro level, everyone is so good at anticipating, and nearly everyone has decent groundstrokes to trouble you if you give them even a chance at the pass. Not only that, surfaces are much slower than before. Thus why you do not see alot of S&V success on the tuor.


At an amateur level though, S&V can easily take you to a 5.0 level if you work on your game hard enough. As many posters stated before, the best S&V players actually have good returns. Sampras had a very underrated return game by many people on these boards. He excelled at attacking short balls and could chip and charge, and also retrieve well.


Anything above the 5.0 level though, you will start to run into some problems. It's really only at the pro level (IMO) though that S&V really becomes a hindrance rather than an asset.

never thought of it that way. Im not really planning to go pro anytime soon lol, so i think ill be okay. According to what you said, S&V will take me to a DII college. I am going to incorporate an allcourt game though either way. I need to learn to not rely on my serve too much, for if my serve is off then Im pretty much fu****. Besides, Im pretty sure people at the college level have good passing shots as well, so i need to bring my groundstroke game up to par.

Thanks for your advice, really helped

 

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

. Sampras had a very underrated return game by many people on these boards. He excelled at attacking short balls and could chip and charge, and also retrieve well.

Not many pro's can hit a swinging one hander return consistently, especially on first serves. Many will resort to slice. Certainly the two hander has a advantage on the backhand return. Sampras certainly could take advantage of second serves, but mostly with slice.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

Right now, S&V can take you really, really high up. Specially since most kids these days are learning baselining, and baselining only. Since they don't face constant pressure from attackers, they tend to fold rather quickly. Most kids are not good with passing shots either. They may pass you the first 5, 10 times, but they cannot pass you for two hours.

I'm a 24 y.o S&Ver, and I scare the crap out of my competition, and I play 70% of the time on slooow red clay

Learn mainly two serves: an unnatackable kicker that gives you plenty of time to reach the net; and an aggressive topspin-slice serve that goes in 65-70% of the time. Then, work on placement: T, wide and body. Kickers to the body are the bread and butter serve for most net rushers, since they usually get the weakest replies.

Work on variety, and forget about the flat hard 1st serve

Thank god. My flat serve, well, it doesn't show up too often. (neither does a good kicking topspin serve, but that's another story).

Yeah, my serve and volleys are pretty much the only things I can rely on in tennis. And my fitness too i guess. I run a 11.9 100m and a 5:18 mile, so I can outlast anyone at my age as well as outrun them (im on my varsity track team too). Kick serves are great no doubt, especially for players like us. I just prefer slice and flat serves just b/c I like to hit the ball hard. The serve is the only time I'm able to hit the ball as hard as possible and control how I do it (if that makes sense lol..). And my god, a 7ft kicker is crazy good. My straight topspin kicks like 5ft tops lol. Thats a serve I need to give more attention to. I pretty much serve right through my opponent with big serves, and I need to learn to be able to hit an american twist (not straight topspin). Your right though, a good kick serve can be tougher than returning a flat serve especially when it kicks to your backhand.

edit-can you really do the splits? Are you a girl by any chance?

5ft. is not bad. Think about it. Average player is what, 5'9". A 5 ft kicker is around high chest to shoulder height.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

It is really only at a D1 / Pro level do you really start to see why S&V died out. Even at a D1 level, there are still quite a few guys out there who make their living at the net (one of the USC guys does, as does one player from Duke, new recruit at Texas also does to an extent).


At a pro level, everyone is so good at anticipating, and nearly everyone has decent groundstrokes to trouble you if you give them even a chance at the pass. Not only that, surfaces are much slower than before. Thus why you do not see alot of S&V success on the tuor.


At an amateur level though, S&V can easily take you to a 5.0 level if you work on your game hard enough. As many posters stated before, the best S&V players actually have good returns. Sampras had a very underrated return game by many people on these boards. He excelled at attacking short balls and could chip and charge, and also retrieve well.


Anything above the 5.0 level though, you will start to run into some problems. It's really only at the pro level (IMO) though that S&V really becomes a hindrance rather than an asset.

Is the Texas guy your talking about last year's runner up at the NCAA finals? Some aussie guy? Leftie?

 

[Ballinbob]

Believe me, a straight topspin serve that kicks 5ft is pretty bad lol. It may get them once, but after that I start to get it hammered at me because it doesn't bounce outwards. Also it doesn't have that much pace, its all spin. Its definitely a serve i need to work on. My flat and slice serve is what I live off right now.

edit- About your sig.... so you don't think that nadal has mastered the slice? I thought he used it pretty well in wimby.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

Believe me, a straight topspin serve that kicks 5ft is pretty bad lol. It may get them once, but after that I start to get it hammered at me because it doesn't bounce outwards. Also it doesn't have that much pace, its all spin. Its definitely a serve i need to work on. My flat and slice serve is what I live off right now.

edit- About your sig.... so you don't think that nadal has mastered the slice? I thought he used it pretty well in wimby.

That's a post from our ever so intelligent posters Nadal_Freak. Nadal's slice has certainly gotten better, but nowhere near mastered.

 

[Ballinbob]

yeah i know nadal freak. so i guess your blind now if you dont see things his way huh?

lol he is fun to have around though. Whats next, nadal is going to be the next great S&V player?

 

[Deleted member 25923]

yeah i know nadal freak. so i guess your blind now if you dont see things his way huh?

lol he is fun to have around though. Whats next, nadal is going to be the next great S&V player?

If only you knew. I love the debates between him and Drakulie, supported by NamRanger and some Nadal fanboy (Mungo got banned, y'know?).

I just chime in from time to time. Nadal is a great player and I like him as a tennis player and a person, but he pisses me off when he beats Fed :twisted:

 

[Ballinbob]

i love nadal and am a big fan and i love it when he beats fed. That's just because I like to watch people who play the opposite of me for some reason. Belive it or not my favorite players are nadal, monflis, and roddick. I dont like pros who S&V even though thats what i do, just b/c i feel like that i know that part of the game enough and i want to see some baseline grinding. I know its a weird reasoning, but thats just what i like.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

i love nadal and am a big fan and i love it when he beats fed. That's just because I like to watch people who play the opposite of me for some reason. Belive it or not my favorite players are nadal, monflis, and roddick. I dont like pros who S&V even though thats what i do, just b/c i feel like that i know that part of the game enough and i want to see some baseline grinding. I know its a weird reasoning, but thats just what i like.

That's interesting. I like Federer because of the sick crap he pulls on court. The angles, the shots, ridiculous (more so other years). I started liking him more as he started losing. Strange huh. I love Safin's game and personality. And lately, Edberg. His game was just so great. The volleys, the serve, the foot work.

 

[Jonny S&V]

edit-can you really do the splits? Are you a girl by any chance?

I'm a guy, just really flexible. Hopefully in the next couple of days I'll have a video up of my serve and you'll see how flexible my back is (can't do the splits anymore unfortunately, I should work on that... ).

 

[Deleted member 25923]

^^^^Jonny, I used to be able to do the splits (when I was in martial arts), but it's long gone. I need to work on flexibility though to get it back.

 

[Ballinbob]

nice jonny. FYI, i switched to a head light slazenger racket with a 100 in head and its great. alot more control than my wilson oversize racket. Loss in power, but i think the control is worth it. No wonder I could serve so hard, I just figured that out. My wilson hyperhammer had all the weight in the head, so power came easily. But with this racket I seem to get a higher percentage with better placement, so it all evened out.

 

[GeorgeLucas]

Once upon a midnight dreary

I know this is the 2nd thread in one day, but I need some insight on this

I'm a S&V player (15 years old) with a big serve and good volleys. I S&V on all first serves and I win alot of matches using this style of play. I want to know to what level can I keep S&Ving? Pretty much everyone has told me that once I hit 5.0 and upper 4.5 that S&V wont work? I argued that by then my serve will be even bigger and volleys even better so it wouldn't matter. I don't want to practice a style of play that will become usless at the higher levels. I am working my as$ off training (5hrs a day) to become better to make it to a DII school. The last thing I want is for me to get to an upper 4.5 then find Im getting destroyed all of a sudden. By the way, will S&V work at the college level?
I will still work on groundies of course, but will use S&V as a main style of play. I practice groundies, but I feel like I play better just hitting big serves and backing them up with my volleys. Will I HAVE TO go to a baseline player? I don't want to, but if thats the only way to make it to a good DII school then so be it.

Thanks guys

Answering the original question, serving and volleying can take you to the 7.0 level. The pro level. The big boys. Yea, where Roddick and Federer play. You can play with them... With serve and volley... If you're good at it...


The point is stick with it if it works.


If it doesn't it's a whole 'nother story :-|

 

[Ballinbob]

thanks lucas. It definitley works for me, but I decided im gonna go for an allcourt game. I dont want to be one dimensional, and i want a backup plan in case my serve+volleys arent working/

 

[Ferrari1190]

serve and volley can work anywhere but not for everyone but keep at it i wish u all the best!

 

[Jonny S&V]

nice jonny. FYI, i switched to a head light slazenger racket with a 100 in head and its great. alot more control than my wilson oversize racket. Loss in power, but i think the control is worth it. No wonder I could serve so hard, I just figured that out. My wilson hyperhammer had all the weight in the head, so power came easily. But with this racket I seem to get a higher percentage with better placement, so it all evened out.

That was your first problem, a players racquet is much better capable of handling tough volleys.

^^^^Jonny, I used to be able to do the splits (when I was in martial arts), but it's long gone. I need to work on flexibility though to get it back.

Yeah, it was actually really handy, and then I'd get people watching me and I would be on total defense and they'd be like :shock:

 

[J-man]

I know this is the 2nd thread in one day, but I need some insight on this

I'm a S&V player (15 years old) with a big serve and good volleys. I S&V on all first serves and I win alot of matches using this style of play. I want to know to what level can I keep S&Ving? Pretty much everyone has told me that once I hit 5.0 and upper 4.5 that S&V wont work? I argued that by then my serve will be even bigger and volleys even better so it wouldn't matter. I don't want to practice a style of play that will become usless at the higher levels. I am working my as$ off training (5hrs a day) to become better to make it to a DII school. The last thing I want is for me to get to an upper 4.5 then find Im getting destroyed all of a sudden. By the way, will S&V work at the college level?
I will still work on groundies of course, but will use S&V as a main style of play. I practice groundies, but I feel like I play better just hitting big serves and backing them up with my volleys. Will I HAVE TO go to a baseline player? I don't want to, but if thats the only way to make it to a good DII school then so be it.

Thanks guys

I think as long as you learn to adapt to situations and not become to predictable you will be able to primarily serve and volley the rest of your "tennis career" (if you will).

On a side note, 5 hrs a day, man I'm 15 too and I wish I could get out like that!

 

[kelz]

I know this is the 2nd thread in one day, but I need some insight on this

I'm a S&V player (15 years old) with a big serve and good volleys. I S&V on all first serves and I win alot of matches using this style of play. I want to know to what level can I keep S&Ving? Pretty much everyone has told me that once I hit 5.0 and upper 4.5 that S&V wont work? I argued that by then my serve will be even bigger and volleys even better so it wouldn't matter. I don't want to practice a style of play that will become usless at the higher levels. I am working my as$ off training (5hrs a day) to become better to make it to a DII school. The last thing I want is for me to get to an upper 4.5 then find Im getting destroyed all of a sudden. By the way, will S&V work at the college level?
I will still work on groundies of course, but will use S&V as a main style of play. I practice groundies, but I feel like I play better just hitting big serves and backing them up with my volleys. Will I HAVE TO go to a baseline player? I don't want to, but if thats the only way to make it to a good DII school then so be it.

Thanks guys

Prior to the power era... everyonee S&V'd

 

[Phil]

Right now, S&V can take you really, really high up. Specially since most kids these days are learning baselining, and baselining only. Since they don't face constant pressure from attackers, they tend to fold rather quickly. Most kids are not good with passing shots either. They may pass you the first 5, 10 times, but they cannot pass you for two hours.

Actually, I can and HAVE been passed at the net for an entire match. Not, of course, for two hours because such matchs were finished in around an hour (or less) But I know what you mean.

I'm a 24 y.o S&Ver, and I scare the crap out of my competition, and I play 70% of the time on slooow red clay

Learn mainly two serves: an unnatackable kicker that gives you plenty of time to reach the net; and an aggressive topspin-slice serve that goes in 65-70% of the time. Then, work on placement: T, wide and body. Kickers to the body are the bread and butter serve for most net rushers, since they usually get the weakest replies.

Work on variety, and forget about the flat hard 1st serve

Great advice. Go s&v'ers! There're still a few of 'em left.

 

[Ballinbob]

That was your first problem, a players racquet is much better capable of handling tough volleys.

By players racket you mean one with a smaller headsize+headlight right? The racket is so stiff compared to my other one and theres a big reduction in pace. I havent tried it out for volleys,just serves and some groundies. Like i said though, it gives just as much control as my other racket did power so i guess its ok. Just need to get used to swinging a little harder for pace.

By the way, I practiced my twist serve and I'm finally getting the serve to bounce outwards. My friend (hes a legit 4.5) helped me with my kick serve for like 2 hours. He told me that if I want more pace then I would have to pronate more and have a bigger wrist snap. It worked. Now that theres more pace, theres more spin and its alot more reliable than what it was before. I know this has absolutely nothing to do with the thread but Im excited and thought id share

 

[NamRanger]

Is the Texas guy your talking about last year's runner up at the NCAA finals? Some aussie guy? Leftie?

Believe so. Guy has a nasty twist.

 

[FitzRoy]

Serve and volley can take you all the way. In terms of current pros, Stepanek does it quite a bit and Karlovic does it on nearly every serve. Mahut, Lopez, others I'm forgetting.

If you think serve and volley maximizes your talents, and it's the way you want to play, then there's no good reason not to.

 

[Zachol82]

S&V is good but obviously your opponent will catch on if you serve and volley on every first serves. It will definitely still work at the college level though, I've seen people done it on my college team.

Still, it all depends on who you're playing...if they're better than you, then they're better than you, doesn't mean that your style of play sucks or anything...

YOU just suck period..lololol!

 

[Ballinbob]

Thanks Fitz and Zach. I think Fitzroy made a really good point about "maximizing your talent". I think thats really important. I have a pretty darn good forehand that I never get to use because I always rush the net. It would probably be smart to utilize and really work on my forehand and build my groundstroke game. I need to use all my strengths and learn to use them to defend my weaknesses (backhand,footwork,blocking fast shots ect). And your right Zach, I dont want to be predictable. I will definitely incorporate an all court game from now on.

 

[Jonny S&V]

By players racket you mean one with a smaller headsize+headlight right? The racket is so stiff compared to my other one and theres a big reduction in pace. I havent tried it out for volleys,just serves and some groundies. Like i said though, it gives just as much control as my other racket did power so i guess its ok. Just need to get used to swinging a little harder for pace.

By the way, I practiced my twist serve and I'm finally getting the serve to bounce outwards. My friend (hes a legit 4.5) helped me with my kick serve for like 2 hours. He told me that if I want more pace then I would have to pronate more and have a bigger wrist snap. It worked. Now that theres more pace, theres more spin and its alot more reliable than what it was before. I know this has absolutely nothing to do with the thread but Im excited and thought id share

Hey, it's your thread, feel free to post improvements! Switching to a "players" racquet from the one you had will help your volleys with the added stability it gives. I really can't volley (well) with anything under 11 ounces, but I'm used to heavier racquets...

 

[Ballinbob]

well hopefully this will help my volleys a bit then. Its been snowing hard here, so I havent been able to play. I dont believe in paying 22$ an hour to play indoors either...

Anyway, i hope to post a vid of my ground strokes soon to get some help with them. I think Ill be a better player if I start working on those. I have a feeling that my footwork is holding me back on groundies but Ill let BB be the judge of that.

Well this thread is pretty much done and has served its purpose. Thanks everyone

 

[Jonny S&V]

well hopefully this will help my volleys a bit then. Its been snowing hard here, so I havent been able to play. I dont believe in paying 22$ an hour to play indoors either...

Anyway, i hope to post a vid of my ground strokes soon to get some help with them. I think Ill be a better player if I start working on those. I have a feeling that my footwork is holding me back on groundies but Ill let BB be the judge of that.

Well this thread is pretty much done and has served its purpose. Thanks everyone

I wish that I had access to indoor courts in-town, I have to go an hour-and-a-half to play at the nearest racquet club. Consider yourself lucky.

 

[Ballinbob]

thats crazy... Well even if they were next door to me im not paying 22$ an hour to play. I dont know why but to me thats like scamming me. Theres perfectly fine courts 10 mins away for free, but they want to charge me $22 an hour to have a hit with my friend? Yeah right..

 

[Deleted member 25923]

thats crazy... Well even if they were next door to me im not paying 22$ an hour to play. I dont know why but to me thats like scamming me. Theres perfectly fine courts 10 mins away for free, but they want to charge me $22 an hour to have a hit with my friend? Yeah right..

I dunno where the question pertaining to the kicker went, here's my experience with it. I was hitting the other day with my cousin and brother. I broke the strings on my fischer in like 5 mins (damn shanks!), and it's my current racquet. I like it better for pretty much everything, especially serve and volley, though my other racquet (Yonex RDX500 MP) may be better for my backhand. Regardless, I had to use my RDX. My serves were not very good (they're not amazing anyways).

I usually hit a kicker on my first and second serve (hoping it actually kicks and isn't some weak floater with nothing on it). My serves were patty cakes. My cousin recommended falling into it. I found that it not only increased the pace, but also the topspin. Probably increased my overall racquet head speed. Now, i'm wondering how good it will be with my main racquet.

Anyways, back on topic. From that experience, it seems to me that you need both forward movement, and jumping up and into the ball, especially on the kicker. Another person mentioned that the pace on the kicker comes from leaning into it.

Also, here's a post by SystematicAnomaly. He gives some good insight on the kick serve.

That's a tough one. It's something of a catch-22. I believe that a significant kick is realized when the topspin-to-speed ratio is very high -- a massive amount of topspin with respect to the linear speed is what enables the ball to grab the court surface and produce a good kick. I would speculate that a good kick server can spin the ball at more than 4000 RPM, or even greater than 5000 RPM.

I am assuming that when you say "pace", you are referring primarily to the linear velocity of the ball. If not. let me know.

If you increase the linear speed of the ball for a given (top)spin rate, the topspin-to-speed ratio is less. This will probably result in less of a kick. (Note that this is all conjecture on my part, but I do believe it to be true). So, in oder to get more pace (speed) on a kick serve, you must also increase the topspin rate to get the same amount of kick. Not an easy task.

For most of us, a good kick serve will be a slow-to-medium paced ball. The kick serve will never be as fast as a flatter serve, even for the pros. For some monster kickers take a look at Patrick Rafter or Stefan Edberg. They were able to generate a fair amount of pace on their kicks. On the other hand, these 2 serve & volley players were able to get closer to the net for their first volley or half-volley, because their kick serves took longer to reach the receiver.

Take a look at the following video of Edberg hitting quite a few kick serves. I think that all/most of this video is him playing against P Mac and Boris Becker. What is really amazing is that these kick serves by Edberg are on grass, where kicks are generally much lower than on other surfaces. Remember that the grass courts of Wimbledon were noticeably faster in Edberg's day than they are now.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=67xYVndE7CM

.

 

[Ballinbob]

thanks a ton man, really helped. I took the question off because I didnt want this to go into a kick serve mechanics thread, thats all. I was going to start another thread on it tomorrow, but I dont think i will anymore. I will try leaning into it more and see what happens. I get the right spin on the ball and its kicking outwards and everything, but i would like alot more pace.I think that a heavy kick serve with good pace is actually harder to return than a flat and it goes in waaaaay more so im starting to use my kick on both first and 2nd as well. That would be such huge accomplishment for me if I could get more pace on that serve, for that would allow me even more time to get to the net (i used to S&V with a flat serve) and this would allow me to take full advantage of my volleys. My volleys I would say are above average and not really a weapon, but as long as im in good position I make them work. My actual weapon is my serve and my ball anticipation. I have a feeling that my kick serve is alright but im just not used to seeing myself hit so slow b/c im so used to bombing flats and hard slices. Either way i cant go wrong adding more pace to it can i

 

[rosewall4ever]

What level??? That depends on you!!!

It depends if you got a good and efficient serve or not, and quick feet to scramble to the net. Fast hands and decent volley skills. Got that then all the better.

 

[Ballinbob]

It depends if you got a good and efficient serve or not, and quick feet to scramble to the net. Fast hands and decent volley skills. Got that then all the better.

Yeah agreed. Its pretty funny to see baseliners who have great groundies go and play S&V. Alot of them cant volley to save their life and have a massive takeback on their volleys which well....doesnt work. Snow has dried up today, so Im going to go and practice some serves. Ill take my video camera and see if I can have a vid posted of my flat serve and kick serve by Sunday. Im going bymyself so theres no body to hold the camera and i dont have a tripod, so Im gonna have to be creative and think of something that will let me take a vid with a decent angle. I wont be able to vid the whole court, just me, but thats better than nothing and I can get feedback on my form.

 

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

You can always tell the baseliners that can't volley on warm up, they tend to hug the net.


At the mens open level i just don't think there are many S&V players anymore.

5.0 sure. You could be leauge champ with just a huge serve and decent volleys.

 

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

My volleys I would say are above average and not really a weapon, but as long as im in good position I make them work. My actual weapon is my serve and my ball anticipation. I have a feeling that my kick serve is alright but im just not used to seeing myself hit so slow b/c im so used to bombing flats and hard slices. Either way i cant go wrong adding more pace to it can i

You don't have to have big spin serves to be a good S&V player. Obviously sampras was serving big bombs and comming to net, unlike edberg or rafter. Nothing wrong with staying back either and then attacking the net after a return, or to baseline it out. I have not met any real s&v players that where that great from the baseline though. It's hard to do both well in a match. A true s&v player, will be in attack mode any chance he gets.

 

[Ballinbob]

yeah I know you dont have to, but its nice to have. I cant wait till this weekend where i can actually test my twist serve on my friend. Hes 5'4 so its gonna be hilarious watching him return it. Even though my flat serve is a million times faster than my twist, it seems that my twist is going to give my opponents more trouble returning it. It also lands in alot b/c the topspin and gives me time to come to the net. Im not giving my flat serve up, that would be stupid. Im just saying that a twist will probably benefit me more as a S&V-all courter. And if theres not many people who play S&V at 5.0, thats fine. Ill just be one of the few lol. And yeah, my baseline is inconsistent as hell. If I vidded my strokes from the side people would say they looked pretty good, but if you say the whole court then you would probably be wondering if I knew the court was 30 feet to the left of me lol. I think alot of S&Vers dont have good baseline games is because the footwork for the two styles of play is different. I have absoltley no idea what Im doing wrong with my groundies though lol. Nooo idea. Its like having perfect form for running the 100m but your running a 25 second 100m lol. You look good while doing it, but you suck.

 

[supertrex]

if you said you are doing good with it. Then Master it. You might be the next modern S&V champ. for the passion of the game. just mold it to your best!

 

[talock]

when i was in high school my teaching pros/coach cautioned against serve and volley and i have a theory that for younger players it's easier to teach a solid counterpunching baseline game plan than a S&V game plan. to be good at S&V takes (in my view) more constant awareness to find the perfect opportunity to apply point ending pressure. but it's high risk/high reward, which, is why i think coach don't like pushing it on younger players when winning matches is most important; my high school team was very good, had very talented players who could hit with variety, but in practice the coach would still tell everyone to concentrate on getting the ball back from teh baseline. that said, since it's barely taught, it can also be wildly successful as it's a game plan that very few people at that age or level are used to. i think it similar to the reason you see less high flying/elaborate passing attacks in lower levels of football than in upper levels...the complexity is not worth losing games for.

i also think there is a tendancy to generalize a player until a coach really knows that players qualities and deficiencies. some players just have a natural ability to volley. I'm not saying it's not a practiced skill, but i'm sure we've all played against players (or maybe are players) who just know how to get there racquet in the right position when at net...i liken it to having "good hands" in basketball. some people just do, and it comes easier to them. i hate to see coaches who talk players out of doing what they do well.