pirhaksar
Professional
lol good one. Everyone except Djoker seems to know the right tactics. The man was outplayed, he acknowledged it and is moving on hopefully to better times vs Raz in the future.
Toni Nadal blasts Djokovic and Team for suicidal tactics against Alcaraz
- Thread starter Razer
- Start date
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Not believing is not an excuse for netting a club level BH volley 10 inches from the net and then pushing an easy approach shot wide. Alcaraz's "superiority in every facet of the game" didn't cause that, it's just Djokovic knowing he'd be way outgunned and not bothering to show up and try to compete. Something he's done even when not outgunned.
Going 2 and 2 means you just didn't bother doing anything on grass. Even 21 Federer wouldn't have gone down 2 and 2 on grass.
It's fairly meaningless, even if Djokovic had fought harder, but people are then conflating performance against a DGAF Djokovic ON TOP of a terrible Djokovic as some GOAT coronation for Alcaraz. Just pure room temperature IQ stuff.
manley0702
Rookie
Meh. He loses either way, and people would have been critical of him if he took the other approach too. Honestly, I didn't mind his approach. He was outmatched and gave it his best try.
He also lost lots of points with surprisingly errant Djokovolleys.
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
From beginning to end he wasn't moving well at all. He was half a step too slow every time Alcaraz pulled him to the sides and slow when changing direction. He was not homefree in his movement that much should be obvious but still he had some horrendous executions. His confidence was shot once he realized he had no chance to do much from the baseline.
I think it's ridiculous however that posters think Djokovic didn't "bother to show up" or that he believed he didn't have a chance. He tried and still should have made the scoreline a bit closer if it weren't for his bad executions but when you can't rely on your movement against the level of play Alcaraz brought you are gonna get exposed either way. Maybe Djokovic didn't even have chance either way no matter how well he executed his tactics when he couldn't rely on one of the corner stones of his game.
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
messiahrobins
Legend
Toni stating the bleeding obvious. Yes, the tactics were as fatal as Federer doing similar v Nadal in 2008 at RG, but in this case there was no option. Djokovic simply wasnt ready for a war.
His actual choice was the tactics he employed or save face and not play and give a walkover. He elected the champions way to play.
Rafa basically hit the nail on the head. Whereas he was a fav on clay, Roger on grass and Novak/Roger on hard, Alcaraz is a favourite on every surface. Rafa is admitting Alcaraz has moved the chains, Djokovic essentially said the same last year. The ATGS recognise GOATs.
For me Toni would be better off analysing how hopeless Rune and Musetti were against Djokovic. Straight setted was inexcusable.
His actual choice was the tactics he employed or save face and not play and give a walkover. He elected the champions way to play.
Rafa basically hit the nail on the head. Whereas he was a fav on clay, Roger on grass and Novak/Roger on hard, Alcaraz is a favourite on every surface. Rafa is admitting Alcaraz has moved the chains, Djokovic essentially said the same last year. The ATGS recognise GOATs.
For me Toni would be better off analysing how hopeless Rune and Musetti were against Djokovic. Straight setted was inexcusable.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Wanted him to play like Murray. Bless him.
Newballsplease872
Rookie
Uncle Phony should focus on his nephew
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Good point. Murray never got straight setted in a Wimbledon final (he was the one handing them out).
messiahrobins
Legend
I knew Djokovic was beaten in the first game. There was one point where Alcaraz passed him and Djokovic turns away muttering and looked very heavy eyed.
I think Djokovic knew he was beat as well that early. He tried everything he could have but he would have felt the ball coming his way and the shape of it and probably knew early doors he had nothing to really give in response.
Only guy who may have done was Sinner as he has the weight of shot to keep Carlos honest on a quicker court, albeit this year W looked as slow as i have ever seen it.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
SNV style of play can't work , here and there it's okay but regularly?it's suicidal against great baseliners
Rafael Nadal's uncle has savaged Novak Djokovic and his team for their ‘suicidal’ tactics against Carlos Alcaraz. The Serbian great was completely outgunned in straight sets by the Spanish star in Sunday’s Wimbledon final.
The 21-year-old became the youngest man in the Open era to win the French Open and Wimbledon back-to-back after defeating Djokovic for the second year in a row at the All England Club. Alcaraz has replaced Nadal as his country’s tennis standard bearer.
Nadal’s uncle, Toni Nadal, played been a key role in the 22-time Grand Slam winner’s success when he served as his nephew’s coach. And he has ripped into Djokovic’s tactics against Alcaraz in a hard-hitting column for El Pais.
Novak Djokovic and team slated by Rafael Nadal's uncle for self-destructing
Rafael Nadal's uncle has torn into Novak Djokovic and his team for their approach to Sunday's Wimbledon final against Carlos Alcaraz.www.express.co.uk
I mean, what team, first of all? He has a group of like physios and trainers... I don't know if there's anyone left in the Box who would actually prepare tactics with Novak.
I don't know that Novak really needs it, either.
I didn't really matter what he tried. He was constantly passed going to the net. He was constantly blasted off his baseline. Nothing made any difference. The gap between his and his opponent's levels in that match was too vast.
D
Deleted member 810491
Guest
Toni is an idiot and needs to shut the hell up.
He restricted Nadal to 22 Slams with negative tactics.
Even the washed-up Nadal won 8 Slams in 5 years with Moya...
Would have won 30 Slams with Moya.
He restricted Nadal to 22 Slams with negative tactics.
Even the washed-up Nadal won 8 Slams in 5 years with Moya...
Would have won 30 Slams with Moya.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
I still believe Novak playing high percentage game, extending the rallies would have had better chances, Carlos would have given him many free points.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
It's sad to see a man who's lost his mind, but it's tragic when he's convinced himself that he's sane.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
It's sad to see a man who's lost his mind, but it's tragic when he's convinced himself that he's sane.
Cr7 ?
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
I thought it would go five sets.
FlyingSaucer
Professional
Best post-Wimbledon 2024 thread thus far.
Well that is interesting considering Djo is famed for his tennis IQ and ability to adapt.
Well that is interesting considering Djo is famed for his tennis IQ and ability to adapt.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea his game was off beyond the serving for the most part.
Everybody has off days when their game just isn't clicking. He will more of those days at this stage of his career.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
He was injured, and his volleys are not as good as Fed or Nadal.
Should have worked on that net game. . . .
Should have worked on that net game. . . .
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Mike Sams
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic looked like one of those scared opponents who was about to face Mike Tyson back in the day.
Soon as Alcaraz started blistering some returns and putting Djokovic's back to the wall in the first game, Djokovic already looked very unsettled.
Against everyone else including against Nadal and Federer, he oozed confidence. Here, he was panic stricken right from the get go.
Some folk on here said the Cincy final win and Turin win would give Djokovic the confidence going into this match. But seemed those wins didn't make a bit of difference to his confidence.
Soon as Alcaraz started blistering some returns and putting Djokovic's back to the wall in the first game, Djokovic already looked very unsettled.
Against everyone else including against Nadal and Federer, he oozed confidence. Here, he was panic stricken right from the get go.
Some folk on here said the Cincy final win and Turin win would give Djokovic the confidence going into this match. But seemed those wins didn't make a bit of difference to his confidence.
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
Look, Novak had his surgery and took his chances to return 3 weeks later on grass and got to the final and lost. He did manage to force the third set into a tiebreaker and even then he looked a bit slow.
However let’s say if Alcaraz had knee surgery and came to play 3 weeks later - would the match have been closer - I think it would have been and many wouldn’t have been able to come back in 3 weeks. In fact I think Novak might have struggled against Alex if he wasn’t injured.
However let’s say if Alcaraz had knee surgery and came to play 3 weeks later - would the match have been closer - I think it would have been and many wouldn’t have been able to come back in 3 weeks. In fact I think Novak might have struggled against Alex if he wasn’t injured.
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Agreed. For any tactic to be effective, Djokovic needed to be playing at a level comparable to Alcaraz's exceptional standard. Tactics (and mental strength for that matter lol) can only take you so far if your own game isn't firing on all cylinders.
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Which Alex? De Minaur? He wouldn't beat Djokovic at Wimbledon.
Nappa
Professional
You could literally see the panic in Djokovics face along the match. He didnt have any answer. Mid match on it was loss acceptance in his face.
ghostofMecir
Legend
It was basically a no-win situation for Djokovic—if he slowed it down, Carlitos wouls just have a lot of time to do his thing and not feel any pressure at all; yes, there’s an outside chance he starts making a bunch of errors, but doubtful.
If he plays the ultra aggressive game, trying to take the ball early, coming into that, there is a slight chance it unnerves Carlitos, but this just isn’t Djokovic‘s game because he doesn’t have the racket talent to pull it off,
ghostofMecir
Legend
Probably not, but there was a real chance there. I bet Djokovic wouls.have been at best a -250 favorite, maybe less.
What we have seen all year is that a slowed down Djokovic who cannot reset rallies like he used one subsequently turn defense to offense, has struggled. He does not have the racket talent of someone like Federer to change of his tactics and play differently. Honestly, ADM would have the physical annd had a real shot ant it.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Are you crazy, why would you pick a fight with Brock for?
dannythomas
Professional
I don’t know if there are any stats on this but it seemed to me that Novak was approaching cross court way too much which made it extra easy to get passed by someone of Alcarez quality. And that was without him having to use the lob much where Novak’s overheads have always been a big weakness. All the best net players approach 90% down the line and Novak is by no means a natural net player as further witnessed by the simple backhand volleys he dumped into the net. In fact Carlos is way better at the net than Novak. Serve and volley from time to time by all means but Novak is not in the same league as the top net players and in fact both Roger and Rafa were better net players .
‘Having said all that it was a good achievement by Novak to reach the final in not the greatest physical shape and with almost zero preparation following his surgery. He was helped of course by Alex pulling out of the quarters which could have been a battle because he Is playing the best tennis of his career and grass suits his game.
‘Having said all that it was a good achievement by Novak to reach the final in not the greatest physical shape and with almost zero preparation following his surgery. He was helped of course by Alex pulling out of the quarters which could have been a battle because he Is playing the best tennis of his career and grass suits his game.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
SNV doesn't work it's as simple as that. Put anyone over there in place of Djokovic and he will be passed to death against a great baseliner, why do you think Great Fed was going toe to toe from baseline at the age of 37 against Nole? Because he knew he would be passed to death if he tried SNV constantly.
Mike Sams
G.O.A.T.
I think that's the first time I ever saw Djokovic mentally defeated. Even in the Nadal matches at RG, he never looked that way. But here against Alcaraz, he looked done. Alcaraz took his soul. It was humiliating. The only way for Djokovic and his fans to save face is to blame the knee. But the knee looked like a complete non factor when he was crushing both Rune and Musetti. He looked strong as hell in those matches.
FlyingSaucer
Professional
I agree but I am commenting more on the manner of the loss rather than the loss itself. Outside of dropshot botting, it's unusual for Djo to stubbornly stick to something that is not working, no?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea that was unusual in a match of that caliber.
Spencer Gore
Legend
His tactics WERE suicidal, which is why there had to be something physically wrong with him that forced him into that suicidal corner.
No_Kwan_Do
Semi-Pro
Toni's probably right, but I don't think he had much of a choice.
Him resorting to the S&V is a clear indication that he either didn't believe he was fit enough to out-last Alcaraz from the back of the court in long exchanges, or couldn't defend the way he wanted to if Alcaraz went on the attack.
Not only that, but he didn't execute very well either. He missed more make-able volleys in that match than he did in his previous 6 matches combined.
Him resorting to the S&V is a clear indication that he either didn't believe he was fit enough to out-last Alcaraz from the back of the court in long exchanges, or couldn't defend the way he wanted to if Alcaraz went on the attack.
Not only that, but he didn't execute very well either. He missed more make-able volleys in that match than he did in his previous 6 matches combined.
Djokovic is a player who is mediocre in every department. He doesn't really have any strengths - he is Novak of all trades, but master of none. He is not skilled like Sampras to be able to come to the net or have a serve like Ivo Karlovic. So, when he tries a specialized kind of game, he doesn't succeed. He is best when playing solid but not great in all departments.
BigThreeForever
Semi-Pro
Mediocre in every department doesn't get you to 71 Big Titles, including 24 Grand Slams. His serving, despite its shakiness at times, is good, his two-handed backhand is arguably the best of all time, his forehand is versatile, etc. Making it seem like he's some random dude who got lucky to get there, when it's the opposite. Father Time is just catching up and he seemed mentally unready after his unsuccessful runs all year.
It can, if your opponents have major weaknesses, like Federer's backhand, or the mental flakiness of NextGen.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Federer had weakness in his mind too, thats how he became butterfingers after reaching MP and putting 1 hand on the trophy.
BigThreeForever
Semi-Pro
He's always had mental issues. Dude had the opportunity of a lifetime to beat Nadal in one of the greatest matches ever, on clay too, in the 2006 Rome final, yet after having won the first set, being 4–1 up in the fifth and later having match points, lost.
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Razer
G.O.A.T.
After that match he never had the confidence or came close to ever beating Nadal in 5 sets on Clay.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Could have been the crucial match in the rivalry, we just didn't know it yet at the time.
Another big one for Fed IMO was going down tamely to Guga in straights in FO in 2004, he was the bookies favourite for the tourney and was decimating the tour from the baseline whole year basically. If he had won FO that year he would have been faced with way less pressure facing Nadal later on.
