NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Toni picks his perfect player and no one is on the list except the Big 3. Lol. He even makes sure to give each 3 mentions so there was no favoritism. I guess this means he sees them all equals and the 3 greatest ever.
Toni wants no parts of anyone not named Federer, Nadal or Djokovic
- Thread starter NoleFam
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Deleted member 770948
Guest
He sees them all equals and the 3 greatest ever? No, because he already answered that question:
"I know Federer is the best ever with I don't know who; maybe Rod Laver or maybe Rafael, he's not too far (behind). But at the moment Federer is the best."
And no mention of Djokovic.
"I know Federer is the best ever with I don't know who; maybe Rod Laver or maybe Rafael, he's not too far (behind). But at the moment Federer is the best."
And no mention of Djokovic.
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
everyone should be like Toni 
He's already said he see's Federer as the greatest ever....for the moment. I'm guessing Toni puts a lot of premium on the slam record, so when his nephew claims it, he might feel comfortable enough to put Rafa ahead of Roger. But not before that. There's that Nadal family humility for you.
Toni puts Federer over Djokovic, but see's Novak as a bigger match-up issue for Rafa. Which seems fair enough.
125downthemiddle
Banned
I agree with Toni here, he has also said before that who has the most titles (he meant slams in the context, was clear) will be seen as the best.
He seems rational and fair really.
He seems rational and fair really.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I think he's being diplomatic when regards to who he thinks the greatest is. He knows Federer has the numbers over Nadal.
I mean the 3 greatest players ever since that's what the question was about.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Connors: Am I a joke to you?
onyxrose81
Hall of Fame
-Srdjan Djokovic has left the chat-
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
According to his TED talk, Federer is a "not very good Swiss player, he played for a while". Djokovic is also "some Serbian player, wasn't really very good".
I've always incredible admiration for Rafa and the principles of relentless work ethic and discipline that Uncle Toni taught him. A true Spartan!
I've always incredible admiration for Rafa and the principles of relentless work ethic and discipline that Uncle Toni taught him. A true Spartan!
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea the Slam record is what he is most focused on when naming the greatest. If Nadal gets the record, his tune will change.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
It kind of makes me mad to see so many people focusing on the slam count to determine who is the best. Laver missed 5 years of his professional career where he could have dominated the sport. So many players skipped Australia because they thought it was irrelevant. Racket technology, surface speed, and better medicine all play a role in how players adapt over time.
The GOAT literally doesn't exist because of this. Ever notice how most people think Lebron, Messi, Federer, Phelps, and Bolt are "GOAT"? Phelps and Bolt may have an argument, but the rest really don't because there are too many variables. With modern equipment, how many more goals could Pele or Maradona have scored? Without having his career cut short, how many more slams could Laver have won? Give him 2 per year, and he would have been at 21.
The best way to enjoy the sport is to just watch matches, which is the essence of competition in tennis. Whoever beats the other in a match is the better player in the match (theoretically, at least). Whoever wins the tournament is the best in the tournament. Whoever is world #1 is the best in the worThe GOAT debate draws so much attention because
The GOAT literally doesn't exist because of this. Ever notice how most people think Lebron, Messi, Federer, Phelps, and Bolt are "GOAT"? Phelps and Bolt may have an argument, but the rest really don't because there are too many variables. With modern equipment, how many more goals could Pele or Maradona have scored? Without having his career cut short, how many more slams could Laver have won? Give him 2 per year, and he would have been at 21.
The best way to enjoy the sport is to just watch matches, which is the essence of competition in tennis. Whoever beats the other in a match is the better player in the match (theoretically, at least). Whoever wins the tournament is the best in the tournament. Whoever is world #1 is the best in the worThe GOAT debate draws so much attention because
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Yeah, modern training and sticking to a certain diet could make Maradona lose a lot of what made him great. Or he might adjust and become even greater. No idea. Messi is the best of his generation/.era. I'd be happy enough with that.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Agreed. I would say this is almost indisputable. The idea is that we shouldn't argue about it even if someone disagrees, because it is impossible to say 100%
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
But don't you think the players are doing this as well? Djokovic is focused on one number in his life: 21. Borg is greater than Lendl, Connors and Agassi because they all have 8 slams and Borg has 11. And even an ATG like Ivan realizes the number of slams will determine GOAThood:
"It's between Novak, Rafa and Roger on who ends up with the most majors and who is considered the best of all time in the open era. All you can say at the moment is that Roger is leading the race - the race has not been finished. When they retire, the race will be finished and you will be able to judge. You have to go with Roger right now, but I'm not closing the book on that."
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis...erer-djokovic-says-lendl-20200509-p54rg7.html
PeoplesChamp
Legend
Federer the only to stand alone twice
What do it tell us?
Serve: Roger Federer
- Volleying: Roger Federer
- Forehand: Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal
- Backhand: Novak Djokovic
- Movement: Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic
- Mental toughness: Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic
What do it tell us?
Serve: Roger Federer
- Volleying: Roger Federer
- Forehand: Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal
- Backhand: Novak Djokovic
- Movement: Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic
- Mental toughness: Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic
PeoplesChamp
Legend
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
Toni loves the Federer FH. I remember reading an interview from him in 2006 talking about how he believes the shot is the best shot he has seen. However, I personally believe that while Roger's FH was great in 2004-07 it hasn't been that good for over a decade.
Rafael's FH had longer consistency (he too lost it around 2015) and has reached similar great highs as Federer's.
In skill they maybe equal and at their best Federer's might be slightly better.
But I think I will take Rafael's FH for my perfect player.
Rafael's FH had longer consistency (he too lost it around 2015) and has reached similar great highs as Federer's.
In skill they maybe equal and at their best Federer's might be slightly better.
But I think I will take Rafael's FH for my perfect player.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Exactly. It is impossible to know for sure.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
As you well know, tennis in the past was not actually super focused on the number of Grand Slams. It was really important, but not as much as getting to #1. Mcenroe said so himself. The current players' focus on the slam record is partly due to Federer setting the bar that high as well as the general tennis public being super concentrated on the slam count.
Lendl's comments puzzle me. I think the entire atmosphere of constantly asking "who is the best? who is the best?"(just look at this forum) might have prompted him to say that, but I think he also knows how hard it is to compare between different periods.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Edberg for the volley, especially on the backhand side. Sampras for second serve, and possibly forehand volley.
Lleytonstation
Talk Tennis Guru
So be it.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
I would take Federer's movement. I did remix black velvet for him.
It's absolutely not indisputable that Messi is the best of his era. Half the world thinks Cristiano Ronaldo is better, that is why football has been obsessed by the Messi/Ronaldo debate for the last dozen years.
I'm firmly in the "Ronaldo is better/greater" camp. More dominant in Champions League, performs better for his National team and proven in 3 major European leagues.
Messi is a system player who refused to ever challenge himself outside one league. A Barcelona legend, who gets notably weaker outside that comfort zone (like when he plays for Argentina). Ronaldo is a legend for Manchester United, Real Madrid, Portugal and now Juventes.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Honestly, you might be right. I was a huge football fan all the way up to around 2014, when I stopped watching. So it might have changed. Would you say that before 2014 Ronaldo was still greater? Messi's dribbling, passing, and pretty much every other aspect of his game is better in my view. I am not acquainted with all the different leagues, etc.
Since you think Ronaldo is the best, would you consider Messi the 2nd best?
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Deleted member 758560
Guest
since messi is comparable with maradona and pele every time.. ronaldo only comparable with messi..
yea coz he didn't want to play anywhere else he can't be the best haha.. the same way ovechkin or crosby couldn't be the best lol...
most pundits, football legends and current players seem to agree:
"Once they said they can only stop me with a pistol. Today you need a machine gun to stop Messi." - Hristo Stoichkov
"For me, to watch Messi play is a pleasure – it’s like having an orgasm – it’s an incredible pleasure." - Luis Figo
"Although he may not be human, it’s good that Messi still thinks he is." - Javier Mascherano
"Messi is God, as a person and even more as a player. I knew him when he was a boy and I’ve watched him grow. He deserves it all." - Samuel Eto'o
"Newton and Einstein had a certain level of autism - I hope that, like them, Messi surpasses himself every day and continues to give us his beautiful brand of football." - Romario
"He is an anomaly. The rest will have to wait until he falls off a little bit.” - Dutch legend Edgar Davids
"For the world of football, Messi is a treasure because he is a role model for children around the world… Messi will be the player to win the most Ballons d’Or in history. He will win five, six, seven. He is incomparable. He’s in a different league." - Johan Cruyff
"Diego [Maradona] filled us with emotions. But between the cracks, without doubt, Messi is better than Maradona." - Diego Simeone
"Messi is a genius. He has everything. When I watch him, I see a player who is very, very, skilful, very clever and his left foot is like Diego Maradona’s." -Franz Beckenbauer
"Messi or Cristiano? Cristiano Ronaldo is very good, but I prefer Messi. He’s incredible." - Gheorghe Hagi
Between Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi, I go with Messi. For me he is the best in the World.” - Rivaldo
"It is clear that Messi is on a level above all others. Those who do not see that are blind." - Xavi
"Messi is a joke. For me the best ever." - Wayne Rooney
Who is the Best Player in the World? Leo Messi. Who is the Best Player Ever? Leo Messi.” - Arsene Wenger
"Cristiano Ronaldo is a very complete player, but Messi is better because he has magic." - Ronaldinho
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Deleted member 758560
Guest
messi the best of course ..not even a question..
clayqueen
Talk Tennis Guru
Srdjan Djokovic will be on his case.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
Federer the only to stand alone twice
What do it tell us?
Serve: Roger Federer
- Volleying: Roger Federer
- Forehand: Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal
- Backhand: Novak Djokovic
- Movement: Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic
- Mental toughness: Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic
Tells us that Federer is a servebot.
I think Ronaldo overtook Messi with his consecutive threepeat Champions League wins with Real Madrid from 2016 to 2018, and also being vital to getting Portugal the European Cup. He's just reconfirmed his greatness by still breaking records at age 35 with a pretty mediocre Juventes team (they will win the Italian league title this year, but only thanks to Ronaldo's goals). It was way more debatable for me in 2014. I may even have chosen Messi then. But Ronaldo has proven too much, in too many different ways since for me to think him less than Messi today.
Of this era, absolutely I'd consider Messi the 2nd best. There's no one remotely close to Ronaldo and Messi in their era (though there have been some incrediblely talented players like Zlatan and Neymar)
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Even taking away the evolution and variables argument, it's frustrating how many people always think the GOAT is whoever they're currently watching, or more commonly whoever they watched as a kid.
Even if Laver was sitting on 20 slams, most of on TTW would still be ignoring him and talking about how much better Federer & Nadal are than him.
WilPro
Semi-Pro
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Given that Novak has significantly better records than Nadal in two of the three surfaces pros play in it’s hard to see how Nadal would be among the best and Djokovic wouldn’t.
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Deleted member 770948
Guest
Well its impossible for Djokovic to be better than Rafa, because he's 2 slams behind.
And Djokovic has been unable to compensate for that 2 slam margin....
Rafa has won more US Opens than Djokovic.
Rafa has won more French Opens than Djokovic.
Rafa leads h2h over Djokovic at US Open.
Rafa leads h2h over Djokovic at French Open.
And Rafa leads h2h over Djokovic at the slams.
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RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
You don't know what Toni's criteria is. He obviously doesnt value H2H as much as some others might, because he is still willing to put Federer over his own nephew and Djokovic.
Toni might simply not value records on other surfaces as much you seem to think he should (especially in non-slams). It's clear Toni values slam performance most, and Nadal and Federer are clearly better than him there in terms of pure numbers.
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jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Bogus reasoning for picking Federer for the serve.
Toni even thinks Karlovic has a better serve than Fed, but says Fed's serve is "good enough" and posits that having Karlovic's serve harms the rest of your game because you aren't going to get another shot.
Imagine a player with a forehand so good that 75% of his FHs don't even come back. Would you not pick his FH because that might "harm the rest of your game"? Nonsense
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea I didn't know that his was reason and it sounds lame indeed.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Hmmm... pretty sure I didn’t say Novak was better.
And I don’t subscribe to the “total number slam wins defines who is best”
and if you are going to rely on H2H ( I dont) there is only one that matters. And Novak is winning that one
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
How to pad the list with dumb arguments, featuring NADALalot:
Djokovic has won more Wimbledons than Nadal
Djokovic leads h2h over Nadal at the AO
Djokovic leads h2h over Nadal at the Wimbledon
And Djokovic leads h2h over Nadal overall
Djokovic has won more AOs than Nadal
Djokovic has won more Wimbledons than Nadal
Djokovic leads h2h over Nadal at the AO
Djokovic leads h2h over Nadal at the Wimbledon
And Djokovic leads h2h over Nadal overall
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Lol. Too easy. You forgot Djokovic leads overall head to head to cancel out his last point.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Recency bias is a big factor, for sure. Also, I am surprised as to how little people on here have watched tennis before the 2000s. Discussions pertaining to the 2000s are great on here, but when people start talking about "all time", it shows that they really haven't watched too much besides the last 15 years.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
5% of us, if that. But those who have watched since 2015 know it all.
It never fails.
95% of those starting the tiresome "Is Murray ATG?" thread wouldn't have a clue who this guy is, with 3 times the accomplishments of Muzz.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
The greatest mustache ever.5% of us, if that. But those who have watched since 2015 know it all.
It never fails.
95% of those starting the tiresome "Is Murray ATG?" thread wouldn't have a clue who this guy is, with 3 times the accomplishments of Muzz.
