Too much topspin?

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
What kind of schmuck would you have to be where in a friendly match if someone asked you to calm down in the warm up you wouldn't hit the ball easy so they could feel comfortable?

J
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Play better people. And you are very lazy with the footwork in that you should turn semi open on balls hit to you in warmup. Approx 45 degrees is what I like to see. Good compromise. That way you can get your hips into it more. Align for match strokes. If you were my kid I would be yelling at you to not be so uncaring and at the very least set your feet right.

Also the best junior and college players pretty much start the warmup on blast. Its right down the middle but no holding back. I tell my kid you should be able to walk on a court and serve up a match. No warmups. Most college matches are no warmups now anyways.



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Yes good point about semi open, im very lazy with my feet at warmups, I think I watch roger warm ups on youtube too much lol.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
PS I like the shape of your shots, so this stuff works basically. Wonder how your lower penetrating shots look like.
Threw a couple points from some point play from last time where im hitting some forehands during, I think you will see at least a couple lower arc shots here from time to time since I generally play fairly aggressively, or at least try to, certainly much more racquet speed and usually not as much arc as the warmup.

 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Qué? Op said "specially during warmups". Not just warmups. Of course you let the opponent rally during warmups, but that doesn't mean you help them out during the match.
Yea, it's a practice match. Hit the ball so you can have some points. If you are insecure and they start talking smack then you can drop the hammer on them.

J
 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
You're hitting spinny, with high net clearance. Such ball jumps higher and faster and people need either to hit half volley on the rise or step back. Rec players usually don't have skill and confidence to hit consistently on the rise and don't have anticipation and fitness to adjust their positions backwards.

Now, warm up between rec players, who don't know each other's games enough, can often get awkward. One feeds the ball, the other attacks it right away, with depth, spin, angle. This should be avoided in warm up. Point of warm up is to hit as many shots as possible, so both players can get into the groove and start to feel he ball nicely. So try to start a bit slower. This will relax you and prepare you better for the match than hard (or deep spinny) hitting right from the start.
 

Kevo

Legend
It looks fine to me, but I can see how some players would be bothered by it. I'd probably try to be a little nicer during the warmup and work on some other technique. Maybe I'd give them a lot of slices or try to drive the ball a little flatter and focus on target or height, or cross court shots only, or whatever. Use your imagination a little bit. There's always something you can work on in any situation. Of course you would want to find maybe some better players to hit with if possible. I've hit with some pretty good college players before that didn't seem to be bothered by any ball I hit as long as they could get to not on the stretch. Playing 5 days a week for years with really good players will do that for you I guess.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
So ive had a few guys tell me this already, that im spining the ball to much and that the ball is jumping extremely high and they have problems with it, and arguing that its hard to play such balls, and I should hit more flat, specially during warmup.

And mind you they have a problem even at start when you start casual with not alot of racquet speed.

And when I say its normal and pro players have huge amounts of spin, they say only Nadal spins the ball that Federer and other players hit flat.

So I made a short clip of a warmup with my coach just to show, and tell me if you think im spining the ball too much lol, it seems normal, and pro players spin the he*** out of the ball too.

Btw these balls are old and may not jump as high, but still, if you look at the technique and arc and all, it seems like a normal warmup (specially start of warmup) with smooth easy strokes, don't see any issue with too much spin, but maybe thats just me.

Thoughts?


It looks like good warm up hitting to me. Those shots your hitting are just right for starting a warm up, but those are not heavy topspin shots by any means. Obviously the guys complaining have never dealt with much spin, it looks to me like there is just a small amount of spin on those shots because with the amount of RHS your using it would be impossible to get a lot of spin on the ball.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
It looks like good warm up hitting to me. Those shots your hitting are just right for starting a warm up, but those are not heavy topspin shots by any means. Obviously the guys complaining have never dealt with much spin, it looks to me like there is just a small amount of spin on those shots because with the amount of RHS your using it would be impossible to get a lot of spin on the ball.
Shade!

J
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
Yeah we told @FiReFTW to look at his contact posture earlier with handle significantly above racquet head:

I think it's associated with pulling up through the contact rather than extending/releasing and letting racquet head flip forward into the ball while executing ISR to help proper WW swing. Now with the grip drifting more than a full bevel from original "Extreme Eastern"...
How much of an issue is this and what problems does it cause?

I think that for topspin, the racquet head is supposed to drop and then come up to near the level of the handle at contact. That motion helps to impart topspin.
Having RH that low at contact does not look right.
It should be more like this. Sock has a similar extreme grip.

 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
How much of an issue is this and what problems does it cause?

I think that for topspin, the racquet head is supposed to drop and then come up to near the level of the handle at contact. That motion helps to impart topspin.
Having RH that low at contact does not look right.
It should be more like this. Sock has a similar extreme grip.

It's a big issue, you shank a lot and lose a lot of potential spin.

J
 

FiReFTW

Legend
How much of an issue is this and what problems does it cause?

I think that for topspin, the racquet head is supposed to drop and then come up to near the level of the handle at contact. That motion helps to impart topspin.
Having RH that low at contact does not look right.
It should be more like this. Sock has a similar extreme grip.

I dont get it, socks rh is also bellow handle
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
I dont get it, socks rh is also bellow handle
Sock is below but Sock's RH is much closer to handle at contact than yours. You don't see that?
Your RH position at contact looks more like Sock's preparation position.
Back view video might be easier to see.



 
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FiReFTW

Legend
Sock is below but Sock's RH is much closer to handle at contact than yours. You don't see that?
Your RH position at contact looks more like Sock's preparation position.
Back view video might be easier to see.



Yea I know what you mean.

Im saying that racquet head bellow handle is common with pros also.
Its always quite extreme when they hit balls at waist level and lower:









So racquet tip very low bellow handle is not an issue I think.

The odd thing and what might be an issue is that im having such a big tilt on some higher balls here which is much more uncommon.

Thats what would be good to figure out the cause and reason.

Perhaps its because im going for a big arc and lifting the ball alot, similar to lower balls that u lift over the net?

Can you check the vid above where i play some points and see how the tilt is in those forehands thst are hit with less arc?
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
Yea I know what you mean.

Im saying that racquet head bellow handle is common with pros also.
Its always quite extreme when they hit balls at waist level and lower:

Can you check the vid above where i play some points and see how the tilt is in those forehands thst are hit with less arc?
The grip determines ideal contact height. Western grip will have a higher ideal contact point than Eastern.
I am assuming ideal chest high contact point which is similar to contact point of your pic posted by @Dragy.

Chest high ideal contact position is what you should be comparing; not lower balls. My guess is that there will likely be variation with RH on lower balls out of ideal contact zone. Also trying to find guy with similar extreme grip like Sock. Not Eastern like Fed.

Have only looked at the 30 second rally vid. IIRC, all the FH contact points had the same issue.

Also see Coach Jolly's comment earlier when I asked if the low RH at contact is an issue.

It's a big issue, you shank a lot and lose a lot of potential spin.
 
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FiReFTW

Legend
I am assuming chest high contact point which is similar to contact point of your pic posted by @Dragy.

Chest high position is what you should be comparing; not lower balls. There will likely be variation with RH on lower balls out of ideal contact zone. Also trying to find guy with similar extreme grip like Sock, not conservative grip like Fed.

Have only looked at the 30 second rally vid. IIRC, all the FH contact points had the same issue.

Also see Coach Jolly's comment earlier when I asked if the low RH at contact is an issue.
Well next time im on court im gonna video my forehand (And in 60fps aswell) and deliberately try hitting different types of balls (more arc, more spin, more drive etc) and then see on video how it looks on each and if there are differences.

Maybe coach @J011yroger can also offer some actual useful tip what to try to on court then to potentially fix this that I can also try and see on vid if it helps.
Saying its an issue is not really helpful.
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
So racquet tip very low bellow handle is not an issue I think.
My guess is that there has to be some wrist movement in the radial deviation direction prior to contact to impart topspin. The wrist has to be around neutral position at contact and continue to move in the radial deviation direction (this will also cause the RH tip to come closer to handle level).

Low RH tip at contact means that wrist is more in the ulnar deviation position at contact (see pic below). By that point, it is too difficult to impart topspin; the wrist should already have been moving and carrying momentum in the radial deviation direction by that point. Too difficult to suddenly impart topspin at contact from a static wrist position.

 

FiReFTW

Legend
My guess is that there has to be some wrist movement in the radial deviation direction prior to contact to impart topspin. The wrist has to be around neutral position at contact and continue to move in the radial deviation direction (this will also cause the RH tip to come closer to handle level).

Low RH tip at contact means that wrist is more in the ulnar deviation position at contact (see pic below). By that point, it is too difficult to impart topspin; the wrist should already have been moving and carrying momentum in the radial deviation direction by that point. Too difficult to suddenly impart topspin at contact from a static wrist position.

Well its a bit annoying and I dont like it, but not sure what the cause is.

1 frame after contact is exactly parallel in every single forehand..



..so maybe its a timing/spacing issue? Idk what the cause is and how i could experiment changing it and seeing what effect it has.
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
The odd thing and what might be an issue is that im having such a big tilt on some higher balls here which is much more uncommon.
You mean on chest high balls, the shoulder tilt should be about level, and that you suspect that you are incorrectly tilting your shoulders down on chest high balls, like Djok is doing on the low ball?



Did not see a downward shoulder tilt issue in the rally video.

 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Well its a bit annoying and I dont like it, but not sure what the cause is.

1 frame after contact is exactly parallel in every single forehand..



..so maybe its a timing/spacing issue? Idk what the cause is and how i could experiment changing it and seeing what effect it has.
Dang you will lose a lot power this way. Have u tried neutral stance?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Well next time im on court im gonna video my forehand (And in 60fps aswell) and deliberately try hitting different types of balls (more arc, more spin, more drive etc) and then see on video how it looks on each and if there are differences.

Maybe coach @J011yroger can also offer some actual useful tip what to try to on court then to potentially fix this that I can also try and see on vid if it helps.
Saying its an issue is not really helpful.
Woah, hey, you have a coach. You don't need me.

J
 

FiReFTW

Legend
You mean on chest high balls, the shoulder tilt should be about level, and that you suspect that you are incorrectly tilting your shoulders down on chest high balls, like Djok is doing on the low ball?



Did not see a downward shoulder tilt issue in the rally video.

No with tilt i meant racquet tilt, that its not parallel but tip pointed a bit down
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
1 frame after contact is exactly parallel in every single forehand..

Just one frame off. But that one frame makes a big difference according to Jolly... It's still weird that opponents can't handle your spin despite your non-optimal technique... Spin might go thru the roof if you fix this.

I would first verify you can do it correctly with a drop feed.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Pay @J011yroger and I’m sure he’ll be happy to offer advice and help you. ;)
No need.

There are people who are willing to help others, share their experiences and offer advice to others so they don't make the same mistakes as they did etc

And then there are those who couldnt give a c*ap about others, well unless they get something in return. Selfish and egoistic, never helping others out unless theres something in it for them.

Everyone is free to be who they want to be, but im proud that im the first half type of person.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Just one frame off. But that one frame makes a big difference according to Jolly... It's still weird that opponents can't handle your spin despite your non-optimal technique... Spin might go thru the roof if you fix this.

I would first verify you can do it correctly with a drop feed.
I stopped frames in my point vid and its hard to see at times because of frame times but seems its not nearly as exsessive on most those shots than here.

Thats why i will vid miself and try different shots, footwork etc and see if it has any affect.

Pretty interested in results
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Just one frame off. But that one frame makes a big difference according to Jolly... It's still weird that opponents can't handle your spin despite your non-optimal technique... Spin might go thru the roof if you fix this.

I would first verify you can do it correctly with a drop feed.
His spin likely jumps upward vs upward and forward with penetration.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
@FiReFTW

There’s this saying that goes something like this:

“You get what you pay for.”

Would you expect to walk into a Mercedes Benz dealership and drive out with a new AMG for free? Sure would be nice to run into a generous and giving salesperson who would do that.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
His spin likely jumps upward vs upward and forward with penetration.
When I hit a loopy "safe" rally shot for sure, when I drive it more its more penetrating.

And yes i know my rally shot should also be more penetrating even with a higher arc, its too up and across probably and not enough forward swing.

But those are just my 1st person views and from what i feel and see
 

tennishabit

Hall of Fame
gr8 vid n u can learn/tell a lot from all the comments, man. whatever advises from whoever etcetc all blabla....bla gonna eventually come to 1 thing, the niked/naked truth: 'just do it!'...............lololololol, hitting 1000 fh/bh everyday against wall really helps me personally but not sure it'd helps others though. since i got my 'secret simulator setup' on the inclined wall more than a dozen ppl tried doing wat i'm doing but after a few days or wks all seemed got hurt n disappeared in a very classical te/ge way, gald my wall is far beyond any1else's reach n safe for myself w/o worrying got swamped by too many ppl................hilariolujajah, lololololol:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D..........................................
 
I think your forehand looks pretty nice actually. I agree with the comments about your feet. Focus on disciplining your footwork to get that left foot out in front to enable weight transfer, and your forehand will turn into a reliable weapon soon.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Threw a couple points from some point play from last time where im hitting some forehands during, I think you will see at least a couple lower arc shots here from time to time since I generally play fairly aggressively, or at least try to, certainly much more racquet speed and usually not as much arc as the warmup.


Looks like you have improved your playing some good points. It shows what a lot of hard work can do if a player is willing to put in the time and effort.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I think your forehand looks pretty nice actually. I agree with the comments about your feet. Focus on disciplining your footwork to get that left foot out in front to enable weight transfer, and your forehand will turn into a reliable weapon soon.
I have a ton of room to improve in the footwork department I agree 100%

On days when im full of energy and really moving my feet extremely well im playing much betrer than when im lazy with feet, difference iz staggering
 

tennishabit

Hall of Fame
@FiReFTW

There’s this saying that goes something like this:

“You get what you pay for.”

Would you expect to walk into a Mercedes Benz dealership and drive out with a new AMG for free? Sure would be nice to run into a generous and giving salesperson who would do that.
lolololololol manohman............“You get what you pay for.” dat's almost right opposite in many cases especially tenniswise. dat's exact reason why tennis's dying in some countries where most of grass roots have been killed ie no kids seen on courts anymore. all the oldies are disappearing in couple decades n just wonder who's gonna showup on all those courts:?))).......playing mini soccer/futsal:?)))...........sell to developers at least get $$$.......$$:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D...................

99.99% parents/kids saying/seeing no matter how much $$$$$ they pay still mil. miles away from pro circus n they sound like “You never get what you pay for.”:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:.............................

lolololol boyohboy, it reminds me a nice ytb vid:
 
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FiReFTW

Legend
Looks like you have improved your playing some good points. It shows what a lot of hard work can do if a player is willing to put in the time and effort.
Starting to play more points really helped my point play level.I sucked completely playing points but now its slowly improving, im playing some rly nice games in a row now, and then suck some games in a row, haha

Today i played a few games the best i ever played against coach up till 3:2
Then sucked till the end of set apart for 1 decent game
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Starting to play more points really helped my point play level.I sucked completely playing points but now its slowly improving, im playing some rly nice games in a row now, and then suck some games in a row, haha

Today i played a few games the best i ever played against coach up till 3:2
Then sucked till the end of set apart for 1 decent game
Stay with it and keep putting in the work. That’s what makes this game so challenging you can play well at times and think wow this is going well then next thing you know it’s a struggle to even play decent.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
@FiReFTW @Raul_SJ
I see it not as “tip-handle should be horizontal”. Pros mostly demonstrate racquet more or less in line with arm (hand-shoulder line for bent arm) by contact if observed from back/front perspective. Accordingly, tip appears below the handle on low balls, close to horizontal on chest-to-shoulder high balls, above handle on accidental higher balls.
I see couple of attention points:
- Possible issues with RF control. You compensate with rather closed grip and steep swingpath.
- I see this racquet head trailing below as a sign of pulling with your arm through contact. I would go for extending through at this point, releasing, or whatever you call it. I expect your racquet coming from being trailed behind and below to flipping up and forward right into contact.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
@FiReFTW @Raul_SJ
I see it not as “tip-handle should be horizontal”. Pros mostly demonstrate racquet more or less in line with arm (hand-shoulder line for bent arm) by contact if observed from back/front perspective. Accordingly, tip appears below the handle on low balls, close to horizontal on chest-to-shoulder high balls, above handle on accidental higher balls.
I see couple of attention points:
- Possible issues with RF control. You compensate with rather closed grip and steep swingpath.
- I see this racquet head trailing below as a sign of pulling with your arm through contact. I would go for extending through at this point, releasing, or whatever you call it. I expect your racquet coming from being trailed behind and below to flipping up and forward right into contact.
Heres warm up vs point play





There seems to be much less of an angle in point playing.

So when I try to hit more aggressive and through the ball more with less extreme arc there seems to be much less of an angle.

The only differences between warm up and this in my head are:

1.Swinging faster in points
2.Not going for such a huge net clearance but more through the court

Thoughts on that?

Khachanov seems to have a similar thing



Maybe it really is related to a more closed racquet face, its harder to lift the ball for a big arc with a more closed racquet, it would make the most sense.

Anyone else who has a more closed racquet that I can look at?
 
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