Too much topspin?

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Anyone else who has a more closed racquet that I can look at?

Khachanov has very closed grip, holding ESR longer and dragging the racquet more forward actually allows him to get serviceable RF orientation. And he still has angle against forearm, but not against hand-shoulder straight line.
I think you are right those are related, I just wonder what goes first, your swing (followed by grip natural adjustment through practice) or your grip.

I’d personally (and I do) experiment with overdoing the WW by swinging literally below the all with the arm and getting the stringbed on the ball by lifting racquet head. Would start in a very mild manner, without any backswing, racquet lag etc. Have actually observed a junior player coached to do just that (hitting by rotating RH up through the ball) on drive volleys, starting with close up no-bounce hand feeds.
 

FiReFTW

Legend

Khachanov has very closed grip, holding ESR longer and dragging the racquet more forward actually allows him to get serviceable RF orientation. And he still has angle against forearm, but not against hand-shoulder straight line.
I think you are right those are related, I just wonder what goes first, your swing (followed by grip natural adjustment through practice) or your grip.

I’d personally (and I do) experiment with overdoing the WW by swinging literally below the all with the arm and getting the stringbed on the ball by lifting racquet head. Would start in a very mild manner, without any backswing, racquet lag etc. Have actually observed a junior player coached to do just that (hitting by rotating RH up through the ball) on drive volleys, starting with close up no-bounce hand feeds.
I will experiment for sure and see.

Do you think the speed of the swing has an effect on this?

It seems its much more extreme when I swing slower, perhaps because of a more closed racquet face if I would have the tip more in line it would add too much spin and the ball would shoot into the net, while when I swing much faster the momentum and racquet speed somewhat overcomes that.. just thinking a bit what would make sense.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Interesting thing is that my grip (at least from the perspective of the index knuckle) doesn't look that extreme either, looks semi-western and if anything it looks more on the mild side.

(This is how my fingers are spread also)

 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Interesting thing is that my grip (at least from the perspective of the index knuckle) doesn't look that extreme either, looks semi-western and if anything it looks more on the mild side.

(This is how my fingers are spread also)

Seems to me your fingers are more angled/spread than Roger’s, for example:

And maybe even more when actually hitting. So the racquet might be stretching the grip significantly, altogether having effect on actual RF angle.
What regards swing speed, it may have it’s role in a way that really slow swing with heavier racquet may not produce enough momentum to carry RH up through contact against gravity. Faster swing propels racquet outward and allows it to pivot over the top as soon as arm reaches max sideways extension range.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Seems to me your fingers are more angled/spread than Roger’s, for example:

And maybe even more when actually hitting. So the racquet might be stretching the grip significantly, altogether having effect on actual RF angle.
What regards swing speed, it may have it’s role in a way that really slow swing with heavier racquet may not produce enough momentum to carry RH up through contact against gravity. Faster swing propels racquet outward and allows it to pivot over the top as soon as arm reaches max sideways extension range.
Yup, I noticed how spread it was also :D

In any case I still have tons of tinkering and experimenting to do, and not only on my forehand. Considering even people like Roger, Nadal, Djokovic are tinkering and changing their strokes as time goes, and their experience and skill is vastly superior to mine.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Heres warm up vs point play




I sent my coach these photos, she said shes driving currently and will take a look later but quickly it seems like its more of a positional/spacing problem, on the bottom pictures I have more space between the ball while on the upper im extending my arm more forward.

It does make sense and it does appear that way.
 

Keendog

Semi-Pro
No need.

There are people who are willing to help others, share their experiences and offer advice to others so they don't make the same mistakes as they did etc

And then there are those who couldnt give a c*ap about others, well unless they get something in return. Selfish and egoistic, never helping others out unless theres something in it for them.

Everyone is free to be who they want to be, but im proud that im the first half type of person.
I haven't been here for over 6 months, but just had to come here to say "SHADE!!"

BTW @J011yroger doesnt seem to give out much technical advice these days cos the people asking never listen and just argue against him. You should also be mindful of the people posting advice in this thread too, they pretty much all have something in common.

And one last thing before I sign off for good, only Sith's deal in absolutes @FiReFTW. There are more than two types of people in the world
 

FiReFTW

Legend
BTW @J011yroger doesnt seem to give out much technical advice these days cos the people asking never listen and just argue against him. You should also be mindful of the people posting advice in this thread too, they pretty much all have something in common.
Yeah I don't really take any advice here serious, but I find every comment of advice/something someone noticed very helpful because when people notice things and mention things and maybe offer their views on it, its useful for asking and discussing those things and talking about them with coach later and sometimes more different views and points of views help looking at something from another way and maybe helping you improve something.
Afterall nobody knows everything, but different people and different experience and knowledge that they have combined is a powerful thing.
 

undecided

Rookie
So ive had a few guys tell me this already, that im spining the ball to much and that the ball is jumping extremely high and they have problems with it, and arguing that its hard to play such balls, and I should hit more flat, specially during warmup.

And mind you they have a problem even at start when you start casual with not alot of racquet speed.

And when I say its normal and pro players have huge amounts of spin, they say only Nadal spins the ball that Federer and other players hit flat.

So I made a short clip of a warmup with my coach just to show, and tell me if you think im spining the ball too much lol, it seems normal, and pro players spin the he*** out of the ball too.

Btw these balls are old and may not jump as high, but still, if you look at the technique and arc and all, it seems like a normal warmup (specially start of warmup) with smooth easy strokes, don't see any issue with too much spin, but maybe thats just me.

Thoughts?

Great looking warmup forehands. I am assuming you are the guy in the foreground. I have 2 players that I practice with telling me the same thing. One of them is like 'real players don't hit the ball as high'. I am like, go see the pros up close, in rally mode they can be 5-6 feet over the net.
 
Yes, low level rec players can't deal with spin. Get better players to play with.

However if you indeed want a friendly hit with them reducing spin some is a good option, I'm doing that too. But playing matches with them if they can't handle your spin doesnt make much sense
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Yes, low level rec players can't deal with spin. Get better players to play with.

However if you indeed want a friendly hit with them reducing spin some is a good option, I'm doing that too. But playing matches with them if they can't handle your spin doesnt make much sense
Well yeah but in the warmup video im swinging at like 30% swing speed, if you look at those point plays im swinging much faster and the ball has much more of a spin effect after bounce, its hard to spin the ball less than in warmup unless I try to hit fairly flat with low clearance but then they I miss more into the net... well I guess another option is to just guide it over high over the net
 

RyanRF

Professional
  1. Deep topspin w/ plenty of net clearance is exactly what you should be practicing in warmup. These are quality balls that will win you points simply by being safe to hit and difficult to attack.
  2. People who complain about this are essentially saying: "I have huge holes in my game, and I have no interest in working on it"
Sometimes I'll hit with people who slice every single backhand. Rather than complain about how they're not hitting 'real shots' or whatever, I think of it as an opportunity to practice hitting vs slice.

IMO the only time it's appropriate to complain in warm up is if the other guy is spraying wild shots and not sustaining a rally.
 

Kevo

Legend
IMO the only time it's appropriate to complain in warm up is if the other guy is spraying wild shots and not sustaining a rally.
The only time I can recall a direct complaint in warm up was many years ago when I had just started USTA 4.0 league. I was warming up before a singles match against the #1 singles player on the team, and he told me to quit hitting so hard it was just warm up. He was handling everything fine as I wasn't hitting around him or anything, and I never would have noticed the pace was bothering him if he hadn't said anything. Whether or not it was appropriate for him to complain I don't know, but I did hit with less pace after that. I don't see any real reason to tick people off in warm up.

Now I have had people comment about spin in warm up, but they usually don't really complain to me directly about it. It's more like wow that had a lot of spin, or man did you see that ball jump or similar statements. I don't worry about it too much as I tend to adjust my warmup to fit the person I'm hitting with. I'll hit slices if they have trouble with topspin, or I'll just hit short loopers so they have a lot more time to react to the bounce or whatever. There's always something creative you can do with warm up to focus your mind on before you start a match.
 

tennishabit

Hall of Fame
Yeah I don't really take any advice here serious, but I find every comment of advice/something someone noticed very helpful because when people notice things and mention things and maybe offer their views on it, its useful for asking and discussing those things and talking about them with coach later and sometimes more different views and points of views help looking at something from another way and maybe helping you improve something.
Afterall nobody knows everything, but different people and different experience and knowledge that they have combined is a powerful thing.
lololololol man............big effort vid/pic of those though obviously any advises from any1 really hardly change anything by now as dat stage's long gone, man. dat girl w/ dat pair of stocky legs is ur coach apparently n her quite good footwork is really something u should learn from but really hard to convert instructions to action unless 'just do it' 000s & 000s repetitions, man. dat's wat i heard from former top-pros commentating on tv many many times like " with x yrs simply not enough hitting enough balls" etcetc..........anyway gr8 vid/pics n very educational manohman:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D.................

also a lot of egoers injured their elbows/wrists by trying to ego up topspin by using arm/wrist alone.........well, egogo goinggoing....egoner. the power's from legs, man. if otherwise wheelchair tennis would b totally different, lololololol man:love::love::love:...........
 
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mnttlrg

Semi-Pro
OP: I think it would be reasonable to lower the trajectory of your shots during warmups, but it's worth it to you to get that timing down and the feel for the spin. So keep the shot the same but go shallower / lower clearance until the match starts.

Nobody wants to deal with borderline moonballs during warmups.

Very nice forehand, btw.


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FiReFTW

Legend
Hm the only thing I noticed right away is that you are not using your legs/feet at all. everything else looks good.
Right, I don't use or barely use when starting to warmup, but it might be a good idea to start using from start, since sometimes I then become lazy after because it becomes a habit, while if I start very active it translates to later, so I think im gonna ditch this type of warmup, too much watching Fed :-D
 

Power Player

Talk Tennis Guru
Right, I don't use or barely use when starting to warmup, but it might be a good idea to start using from start, since sometimes I then become lazy after because it becomes a habit, while if I start very active it translates to later, so I think im gonna ditch this type of warmup, too much watching Fed :-D
Entire stroke starts with the legs, so yes. It will fix a lot of things if you focus on that every time on the court. Copying Fed or any pro’s warmup video is not a good idea, especially without context. He may just be wanting to do a light workout for his back and give his legs a break that day..etc. None of those things will really ever apply to you since you don’t play a tour schedule, so its better to focus on the basics.
 

EP1998

Semi-Pro
I would worry less about what others say about spin in the warm up and work on rebuilding this forehand from the bottom up. If you have a coach you need a plan and that person needs to look at everything starting with your grip, use of your non-dominant arm, what your outside foot is doing (or not doing), spacing, and finish. Then you need to build it in with a ton of reps. Nice looking courts and setting by the way.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
I would worry less about what others say about spin in the warm up and work on rebuilding this forehand from the bottom up. If you have a coach you need a plan and that person needs to look at everything starting with your grip, use of your non-dominant arm, what your outside foot is doing (or not doing), spacing, and finish. Then you need to build it in with a ton of reps. Nice looking courts and setting by the way.
The only problem is that 3 seperate coaches told me that my forehand technique is great, specially for the amount of time im playing.
Of course there are little things to still iron out a bit and improve that we work on as we go along, but overall its very good.
And my forehand is also my main weapon during points, I can hit with alot of spin or I can flatten it out and inject alot of pace and hit winners with even on clay.

So either all of the coaches with experience and the results during gameplay are wrong, or you have no clue what your talking about :whistle:
 

EP1998

Semi-Pro
The only problem is that 3 seperate coaches told me that my forehand technique is great, specially for the amount of time im playing.
Of course there are little things to still iron out a bit and improve that we work on as we go along, but overall its very good.
And my forehand is also my main weapon during points, I can hit with alot of spin or I can flatten it out and inject alot of pace and hit winners with even on clay.

So either all of the coaches with experience and the results during gameplay are wrong, or you have no clue what your talking about :whistle:
Breaking down a shot and rebuilding it is awesome and one of my favorite things about this sport. You can really get into all of the pieces and see what are causes versus symptoms etc. I really love training though.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Play better people. And you are very lazy with the footwork in that you should turn semi open on balls hit to you in warmup. Approx 45 degrees is what I like to see. Good compromise. That way you can get your hips into it more. Align for match strokes. If you were my kid I would be yelling at you to not be so uncaring and at the very least set your feet right.

Also the best junior and college players pretty much start the warmup on blast. Its right down the middle but no holding back. I tell my kid you should be able to walk on a court and serve up a match. No warmups. Most college matches are no warmups now anyways.



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Those kids are finely tuned machines with flexibility honed through years of practice. Most rec adults need to warm up a lot. Else asking for some serious injury if they go full blast from the moment they step on the courts.
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
lol it was funny that the people who have trouble with your ball is telling you too much spin.

- do you always play on clay, then high loop is good because it's difficult for others to take the ball early;
- if you play on hard then advanced opponents can take the ball on the rise and hit down on it... but your fh looks fine, you can adjust by having the hand slightly higher than the ball when you initiate the attack, that will produce a flatter hit.
 

ubercat

Semi-Pro
How about the old door knob turn. If u are lagging and snapping the wrist should naturally deviate radially. Just like you should be aiming at 4 or 5 a clock for a topspin drive.
 

ludde

Rookie
Just like you should be aiming at 4 or 5 a clock for a topspin drive.
i understand the idea of the door knob turn, but what you are meaning with the aiming at 4 or 5 clock...?

My "topspin" forehand is like on the video clip, but for me it is not the true heavy topspin ball, too less rotation and to little bounce.
 
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mcs1970

Hall of Fame
The only problem is that 3 seperate coaches told me that my forehand technique is great, specially for the amount of time im playing.
Of course there are little things to still iron out a bit and improve that we work on as we go along, but overall its very good.
And my forehand is also my main weapon during points, I can hit with alot of spin or I can flatten it out and inject alot of pace and hit winners with even on clay.

So either all of the coaches with experience and the results during gameplay are wrong, or you have no clue what your talking about :whistle:
No need to get defensive. The opinion expressed by the poster was based on the video you posted where you hardly use your legs. You say later that’s not indicative of your strokes in match play. How are folks supposed to know that?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
No need to get defensive. The opinion expressed by the poster was based on the video you posted where you hardly use your legs. You say later that’s not indicative of your strokes in match play. How are folks supposed to know that?
Im not defensive, why does everyone think that someone is defensive whenever he doesnt agree with an analysis of his stroke by another person? I just dont agree with him and find his post silly.

Now im well aware I have alot of room for improvement on all my strokes and im actively working on that constantly.
But my forehand is my 2nd biggest weapon and its good specially when its on its extremely potent.
So it certainly isnt horrible, but thats exactly what he said, he said its horrible and needs a complete overhaul from bottom up, thats just ridicilous and silly, and I completely disagree, but that doesnt mean im defensive thats jut my opinion and thoughts on that.
 

blablavla

Professional
Im not defensive, why does everyone think that someone is defensive whenever he doesnt agree with an analysis of his stroke by another person? I just dont agree with him and find his post silly.

Now im well aware I have alot of room for improvement on all my strokes and im actively working on that constantly.
But my forehand is my 2nd biggest weapon and its good specially when its on its extremely potent.
So it certainly isnt horrible, but thats exactly what he said, he said its horrible and needs a complete overhaul from bottom up, thats just ridicilous and silly, and I completely disagree, but that doesnt mean im defensive thats jut my opinion and thoughts on that.
people here can easily call Federer and Del Potro pushers.
that's why.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Im not defensive, why does everyone think that someone is defensive whenever he doesnt agree with an analysis of his stroke by another person? I just dont agree with him and find his post silly.

Now im well aware I have alot of room for improvement on all my strokes and im actively working on that constantly.
But my forehand is my 2nd biggest weapon and its good specially when its on its extremely potent.
So it certainly isnt horrible, but thats exactly what he said, he said its horrible and needs a complete overhaul from bottom up, thats just ridicilous and silly, and I completely disagree, but that doesnt mean im defensive thats jut my opinion and thoughts on that.
Your choice of words then and now seemed to indicate that. Sorry if I misinterpreted.

I didn’t see anywhere where he said your fh was ‘horrible’. You posted a video and without much context it would seem like the correct advice that it needed to be built from the ground up, which is just saying that it needs to start with using your legs. You later clarified this is not your normal stroke.

This is why I have always stayed away from offering feedback. Your coaches will always have the more correct feedback because they have a lot more data and context to play with.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Your choice of words then and now seemed to indicate that. Sorry if I misinterpreted.

I didn’t see anywhere where he said your fh was ‘horrible’. You posted a video and without much context it would seem like the correct advice that it needed to be built from the ground up, which is just saying that it needs to start with using your legs. You later clarified this is not your normal stroke.

This is why I have always stayed away from offering feedback. Your coaches will always have the more correct feedback because they have a lot more data and context to play with.
Maybe not directly the world horrible, but this pretty much encompases everything about the forehand:

"I would worry less about what others say about spin in the warm up and work on rebuilding this forehand from the bottom up. If you have a coach you need a plan and that person needs to look at everything starting with your grip, use of your non-dominant arm, what your outside foot is doing (or not doing), spacing, and finish. Then you need to build it in with a ton of reps. "
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe not directly the world horrible, but this pretty much encompases everything about the forehand:

"I would worry less about what others say about spin in the warm up and work on rebuilding this forehand from the bottom up. If you have a coach you need a plan and that person needs to look at everything starting with your grip, use of your non-dominant arm, what your outside foot is doing (or not doing), spacing, and finish. Then you need to build it in with a ton of reps. "
Dude, don't get your panties in a bunch, that's just verbal diarrhea.

It's just BS because he wants to sound like he knows something like when corporate bozos use buzzwords like leverage our assets and connect the dots.

J
 

tennishabit

Hall of Fame
No need to get defensive. The opinion expressed by the poster was based on the video you posted where you hardly use your legs. You say later that’s not indicative of your strokes in match play. How are folks supposed to know that?
lololololol man...........his 2nd vid did show he used a bit more legs when vs his coach though needs a lot more legs. anyway rome's not built overnight n take 000s n 000s reps as long as avoid being a victim of the classical 'mass killer' te/ge/wrist, he'll surely to get there eventually.

but still not a life/death issue as mil n mil te/ge-ers out there staying where they are n locked out from any improvement after fell as the victims of the 'mass killer', still supportive commercially to tennis industry like rkts/strings/braces/straps/courthires/being-coached/etcetc..............n 1 more or 1 less won't change the big picture, man:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D..................

>10 yrs ago heard of a qeensland dad-coach on tv interview talking abt his 7yro daughter who quit school n home schooling only in order to focused on tennis. he said something like 'just let her burn through....if burn out then burn out but if she can survive this she'll be rich n famous etcetc..............' never heard of dat girl again so apparently bbq-ed by her dad for sure:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:........................
 
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rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Dude, don't get your panties in a bunch, that's just verbal diarrhea.

It's just BS because he wants to sound like he knows something like when corporate bozos use buzzwords like leverage our assets and connect the dots.

J
Agree. Just line the ball up and smack it. Stay on balance.

You listen to this other crap and you are at best sureshs and at worst ttps.

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user92626

Legend
Agree. Just line the ball up and smack it. Stay on balance.

You listen to this other crap and you are at best sureshs and at worst ttps.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
@sureshs takes alot of punches in this place, eh? And it seems he's doing it lying on his face!! not throwing counter punches.

The sureshs of the past was quite proud, comparing himself to the Fed and would put himself on video any day.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
@sureshs takes alot of punches in this place, eh? And it seems he's doing it lying on his face!! not throwing counter punches.

The sureshs of the past was quite proud, comparing himself to the Fed and would put himself on video any day.
roger roger does not even play tennis. He just feeds balls to his son. TTPS and I are real high-level players.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
@sureshs takes alot of punches in this place, eh? And it seems he's doing it lying on his face!! not throwing counter punches.

The sureshs of the past was quite proud, comparing himself to the Fed and would put himself on video any day.
He says many cruel and hurtful things to Jolly. I think he is trying to blob my feelings...

J
 
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