insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
Following the script was never Hana's thing. It was such a Hana thing to do to have her only win over Graf ever at that exact time of all times.
Following the script was never Hana's thing. It was such a Hana thing to do to have her only win over Graf ever at that exact time of all times.
insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
I guess the big thing on where this topic winded up going to is the real question would be, not which of Graf or Seles is better on clay (obviously Steffi is greater with her RG wins, but who is better, particularly at their best, is much more in question, with varied opinions) but which would be a tougher opponent for Evert, and I think Graf and Seles are similar enough in their levels on clay regardless which you think is "better" it would be much more the match up and which is a tougher match up for Evert. For instance we know who is the far tougher opponent for Sanchez Vicario, including on clay (Seles, she even beat Sanchez more eaisly in their lone grass meeting than Graf ever did, lol), and we know who is the tougher opponent for say Novotna, even on clay (of course Graf, and even if Novotna played pre stabbing Seles on clay, like if she closed out Sabatini in the 91 French quarters she choked a big lead on, I see her doing better than she typically did against Graf, which was barely getting games when they meet on the surface), we know who is a tougher opponent for Coetzer (Seles of course, she was a thorn in Steffi's side when she was not at her best), for the Williams and Davenport in general (Graf of course, although both Graf and Seles should normally beat Davenport and Venus on clay where they aren't very good, even post stabbing Seles), for Hingis (Graf again), for Sabatini (Seles for sure).
On that I would go with Graf being tougher just because my general sense (again this could be challenged) is that Graf is a tough match up for Evert in that Evert lost their last 7 matches, winning only 1 set, which IMO not meant as a slam on Evert in anyway is not particularly good at all for an ATG, especialy a GOAT contender, against another GOAT contender. So my sense is just that Graf is a tough opponent for her period, we saw how much better an old Navratilova would do against Graf in comparision to Evert, which makes me get a complete opposite sense of Martina in the match up. While we will never know I would bet a lot of money if a time machine were invented to test this and every other theory people want solved in history out, even if you put a 33-35 year old Graf against a fully prime Evert, Graf would do better than this for sure, almost certainly would have a losing record of course, but would do better than a 31-onwards Evert did against a 16 year old or older Graf. I mean even Wade who was baby Evert's pigeon already, at age 32 beat her at Wimbledon and beat her a few times aged 30-32. So if both were in their primes together I would be stunned if Graf did not totally dominate on faster courts like grass and fast hard courts, and probably even carpet although a bit less sure there as Graf is more prone to some upset losses to much lower ranked players on carpet interestingly. Clay, slower to medium hard courts, and rebound ace would be more interesting, and of course clay is the only thing we are discussing now. By contrast I suspect Evert would not be the easiest match up for Seles, although here there is virtually nothing tangible to go on, just 2 meetings with BOTH players way outside their primes, which Evert crushed in one, and Seles won in the other. Nothing significant enough to draw much there. As I said earlier the main reason I think this is Evert is basically a much more powerful and more mentally tough Hingis, and while yes it was not peak Seles we do know Hingis was a very difficult opponent for her. So I feel comfortable in predicting Graf is probably a tougher match up for Evert, and Graf and Seles are close to relatively equal in terms of who is "better" on clay regardless which that is (I probably lean Seles at her best in fact) the tougher match up would be Evert's tougher opponent, which while purely I guess I would strongly suspect is Graf for all the reasons just stated. Now mind you this is where your pointing out Seles beating Evert on clay in 89 when Seles was 15, and Evert was 34, while 15 year old Graf was dominated in her matches by a much younger and arguably peak (despite that she was 30 in 85, Evert herself claims that was her all time peak in fact) Evert is noteworthy in this discussion and comparision. I just don't think on its own it is convincing enough if you were already leaning one direction as I was.
Of course both Graf and Seles would be considerable opponent for even the best version of Evert on clay, unless either were totally ill equipped to say the wood racquet era which is a possability and another unknown element, and both would challenge her and do some amount of damage to her regardless, regardless which did more. Of course the same is true in reverse though, Evert would likely do far better vs both Graf and Seles than any of their toughest opponents of their time- say Sabatini or Sanchez, and cut into both of their success on clay for sure.
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SwissMaestro81
Professional
Those two matches surely were the least significant of all 15 Graf-Seles matches.
Graf was losing to everybody at the big tournaments in 1990/91 - to Garrison, Sabatini (x2), Novotna (x2!!!!), grandma Navratilova. All that within 18 months.
Why not also to a 16-year-old newcomer?
I'm guessing you're joking at this point. 16 year-old Seles broke Graf's 66 match winning streak, the longest winning streak of Steffi's career and the second longest streak in the Open Era.
This is true. For instance, if Connors retired at the end of 1984, his H2H vs. competitors and overall win rates would have looked a lot better. But, he kept on going for another 10 years.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
And why did she break that streak, Einstein....?
Seles played better than Graf that day.
insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
I wonder if SwissMaestro believes Graf ever just legitimately lost a match.
And that was a choice he made. He's not going to give up any titles he won in that 10 years. He gets to keep those legacy enhancing great runs at the US Open. It also means we count every single early round loss until the day he retires. Nobody gets to clip and tuck at their professional their record
Hard Court
Professional
The numbers don't lie?
Evert won 125 straight matches on clay. No one done that in more than 60 years. So she must be the best clay court player of that time.
Counting all surfaces, Evert has the highest winning % of anyone in the last 60 years. So she must be best overall player of that time period.
The numbers don't lie.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
Yes, the numbers don't lie.
Yes, no one has won 125 straight matches on clay in the last 60 years like Evert since we also count years when 90 % of players were S&V players and moved on clay like cows on ice.
And yes, counting all surfaces Evert has the highest winning % of anyone in the last 60 years since we also count player's matches when they were 13/14 year old.
But your conclusions are of course wrong.
Evert is not the best overall player of that time since she was brutally owned by Austin in 79-81 (3-9 H2H), by Navratilova in 82-86 (4-21 H2H) and by Graf in 87-89 (0-7 H2H).
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SwissMaestro81
Professional
So did Garrison 4 weeks later in Wimbledon.
And Sabatini at the USO and the YEC later that year.
And Novotna at the AO 91.
All that within 7 months!
What a dramatic and sudden slump!
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SwissMaestro81
Professional
I would not call losing a match due to off-court problems illegitimate since I am not a Seles fan.
Having said that, Graf of course lost several slam finals due to illness and injuries - USO 87, FO 89, USO 94, Wimbledon 99.
Just compare her injury-ridden career with the mostly injury-free careers of Evert and Navratilova!
Hard Court
Professional
Moved on clay like cows on ice? Come on. Navratilova grew up playing on clay. Austin was a baseliner. Goolagong and Court certainly had good groundstrokes. Not
saying that they glided around the clay with excellent footwork like a Marie Pierce or Maria Sharapova who both won the French.
Love the cherry picking again. i.e. just take certain parts of a head-to-head series.
Owned by Austin? Well they did play b efore and after those years and /evert won all their matches ten.
Owned by Navratilova? Well Evert did go 23-6 before 1982 against Navratilova. And 3-3 in the six matches in the last two times they played in 1986 and the first four in 1987.
Evert won 6 straight matches against Graf. Even in their last match when Evert was 34, she took Graf to a tiebreaker.
how about Graf?
As mentioned, she had a stretch of 0-6 vs Evert
Lost to Navratilova when Navratilova was 34 at the US Open and even when she was 36!
Graf even had a stretch when she was 1-7 vs Sabatini!
Statistics are sometimes deceiving if taken out of context, which you have been doing when it favors your player. H2h can particularly deceiving when you don't take into consideration if one of the players is well past their prime or the surfaces favor one of the players.
But yes you can make a legitimate argument that Evert is the best ever. She is among a handful that are very close. No one is hard and shoulders above everyone else.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
Evert was three times owned for several years each time by her three strongest opponents Austin, Navratilova, Graf.
Three players against whom she also had a losing H2H career-wise.
Can't compare that to Graf as 15/16-year-old losing 6 matches in a row to Evert, losing one match against a 36-old Navratilova or having a 1-7 win/loss streak against Sabatini for a very short time (whom she dominated 29-11 career-wise).
I agree that some of Evert's achievements are often overlooked (52 slam semis, many AOs/FOs skipped in the 70s) and yet
- she has losing H2Hs against her 3 main career opponents,
- her clay records especially in the 70s and early 80s came against a field with mostly S&V players (for whom clay is not the best surface).
And that's the reason why most fans rank her only at No. 5 in the GOAT race.
EvonneFedererBorgster
Semi-Pro
Graf wasn’t one of Chris’s three main career opponents! That’s hilarious.
insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
Yes, that is like calling Hingis or Venus 1 of Graf's 3 main career opponents.
Nor was Austin (presumably the third player who was referenced).
Evert's four main career opponents were (by number of matches played): Navratilova, Wade, Goolagong, Mandlíková, and BJK.
insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
In fairness I think Evert had more of a prime on prime rivalry with Austin, brief as it was, than obviously BJK for sure, and probably even Wade.
And Austin was a much bigger threat to her than any of those but Navratilova and maybe at a stretch King (Austin's head to head with Evert is better than King's even had King retired in 1975 mind you).
Austin I can see arguments for, Graf hell no. Graf herself would laugh at that. If they were even a few years atleast closer in age or Evert played as long as Navratilova did then maybe.
Hard Court
Professional
Hilarious.
Love how the cherry picking only counts when hurts a player that don't like or favors one that you do. So now we are back to just counting the grand total.
Considering that Navratliova had a preferred surface in the vast majority of their matches, Evert going 37-43 is pretty damn good.
Evert-Graf was never a real "rivalry". Evert was already past her best before she ever played Graf.
For whatever reasons, sources vary on Austin-Evert. Some say Evert won 9-8. Some have her down 9-8 or 8-6. I have found 9 times that she beat Austin.
Oh, and I also love it how it doesn't matter that a 36-year-old Navratilova beat Graf. But in another thread, it's an embarrassing loss for Navratilova to lose to a 36-year old King. Classic.
Goolagong was also pretty big threat to Evert.
Austin was 9-8 against Evert when she retired, having been double bageled by Chris in their final match in East Rutherford in 1982.
After 17 matches, Goolagong was also 9-8 against Evert, but having won their 17th match, in Boston in 1975. Evert then evened things up by coming from a set down to beat Goolagong in a third set tiebreaker in Houston.
That Houston match was the first of 9 straight wins for Evert over Goolagong,
Then, there was that Philadelphia match in 1976 that was recently posted. It was the start of a stretch in which Goolagong went 3-2 against Evert, again ending with a Goolagong win in Boston, this time in 1978.
From there, Evert dominated, only losing one match, albeit a big one: the 1980 Wimbledon final.
EvonneFedererBorgster
Semi-Pro
Austin was absolutely one of Chris’s biggest rivals and opponents, no matter how few times they played. She was the primary reason Chris abruptly left the game in early 1980 and nearly caused her to retire 9.5 years before she actually did, at the tender age of 25! That was huge. Evonne had the second most wins over Chris and was her biggest rival in the 1970’s, from start to finish, but she feared Tracy more than anyone until Martina became sMartina in 1983.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
Evert played 50 % of her matches against Steffi in 1985/86. She is on record saying that she never played better than in those years.
Steffi lost 6-4 3-6 3-6 to a 36-year-old Navratilova in February 1993.
Navratilova lost 1-6 2-6 to a 35-year-old King in June 1979 and again with 1-6 3-6 against a 36-year-old King in February 1980.
Nice tries, though.....
SwissMaestro81
Professional
I never said that.
But Austin, Navratilova, Graf surely were Evert's three strongest career opponents.
And she came short against all of them.
You're saying you consider Austin stronger than Court, BJK, Goolagong, Mandlíková, and Wade?
SwissMaestro81
Professional
Who of those players had a 9-3 win/loss streak against Evert?
Court was done after 1973.
King was done after 1975.
Wade, Goolagong and Mandlikova.....? Please.....
Goolagong was 8-3 against Evert for a stretch ending in Boston in 1975, leaving the H2H at 9-8 Goolagong, the same record Austin had against Evert after being double bageled in East Rutherford in 1982. And then, that was it for Austin, who had nothing left whereas Goolagong still won some notable matches against Evert including that 3-2 stretch from 1976-1978 and the 1980 Wimbledon final.Who of those players had a 9-3 win/loss streak against Evert?
Court was done after 1973.
King was done after 1975.
Wade, Goolagong and Mandlikova.....? Please.....
SwissMaestro81
Professional
So Evert at age 17-19 had her problems against Goolagong.
So what?
After that period Goolagong was even less to Chris than for instance Sanchez was to Graf.
But when Evert was 24-26 years old Austin dominated her.
And when she was 27-30 years old Navratilova dominated her.
And when she was 31-34 years old Graf dominated her.
And that's what fans remember. She was only second fiddle for most of her career. That's why she is mostly seen only as No. 5 in the GOAT race.
Evert became consensus #1 after winning Wimbledon in 1974. Goolagong then beat her at the U.S. Open and went 4-2 against her through Boston in 1975, with all of the matches being played when Evert was #1. I would say that each of those matches were more meaningful than any Graf win over Evert, except the one out of three matches that Steffi won against Chris in 1986.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
So you want to say that Evert was not only dominated in 1979-89 by Austin, Navratilova, Graf but also in 1972-74 by Goolagong?
And by this tacitly that in 1975-78 she was dominating only because Austin/Navratilova were not top yet and Court/King/Wade over the hill?
Anyway, I think 1987/88 Evert was far better than 1972-74 baby Evert.
Evert herself said that she never played better than in 1985/86. When she was dominated by Navratilova and shortly before teenage Graf started to dominate her as well.
That's not the narrative at all.
From 1977-Mahwah 1979, Evert was 5-2 against an emerging Austin.
Then, for 4 months, from the U.S. Open final in September 1979 to Cincinnati in January 1980, Austin dominated Evert, going 5-0.
In their next match, a rematch at the 1980 U.S. Open, Evert beat Austin, with that being the first of their final 5 matches, with Evert going 3-2. Breaking that down more, they were 2-2 against each other through 1981, with Evert then double bageling Austin at the end of 1981 when Tracy's body was breaking down.
So, no, it wasn't 3 years of domination by Austin. It was five matches over a four month period.
1. Evert was 8-8 against Goolagong from 1972-1974, so it was even stevens. Goolagong then won their first match in 1975 to go up 9-8, followed by Evert winning their next 5 matches in 1975 on the way to taking the H2H, 27-13.
2. As I noted with Austin, Evert was 5-2 against emerging Austin up to just before the 1979 U.S. Open, where Tracy beat her and then beat her four more times through January 1980. Evert then turned the tables in their next match at the 1980 U.S. Open on the way to finishing year-end #1 in 1980 and 1981.
3. Evert/Navratilova was basically even stevens in 1982, with each winning 2 Majors and Martina narrowly finishing #1.
4. Navratilova then dominated from 1983-1984.
5. 1985 was a seesaw between Navratilova and Evert, with the #1 ranking changing hands, but Martina ultimately coming out on top.
6. Navratilova took control in 1986 as Evert started fading, and then Steffi started overtaking Martina in 1987, especially outside the Majors.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
According to the ITF database Evert was
1-4 win/loss in 1979
1-3 win/loss in 1980
1-2 win/loss in 1981
against a 16/18-year-old Tracy Austin.
With 3-6 1-6, 1-6 3-6, 3-6 0-6, 2-6 1-6, 1-6 4-6 and 1-6 2-6 losses among them.
That is a 3-year brutal domination in my book.
And in 1982-86 Evert was 4-21 win/loss against Martina Navratilova.
With 1-6 4-6, 4-6 0-6, 2-6 0-6, 1-6 3-6, 1-6 3-6, 2-6 2-6, 2-6 0-6, 3-6 1-6, 2-6 1-6 losses among them.
And in 1987-89 she was 0-7 win/loss against Steffi Graf.
With 1-6 2-6, 2-6 1-6, 2-6 1-6 losses among them.
Taken all together Chris Evert suffered 9 (!) losses against those three players in which she didn't win more than 3 games.
And 6 more losses in which she won only 4 games.
Again, that's what fans remember - Chris was again and again dominated and even humiliated by her 3 strongest opponents.
You're missing how consolidated Austin's dominance was over Evert. As noted, Evert was 5-2 against Austin going into the 1979 U.S. Open, including 2-2 in 1979, having just beaten Austin in Mahwah.
Austin then beat Evert in that U.S. Open final in September, which was the start of 5 straight wins over Evert through January 1980, four months later.
In their next match, a U.S. Open rematch in 1980, Evert beat Austin with breadsticks in sets 2 & 3 on the way to the title. And, starting with that match, Evert and Austin were 2-2 to close Tracy's career.
Overall, the H2H was 8-4 for Evert outside of 5 matches September 1979-January 1980, leading to a 9-8 H2H for Austin. Nobody was saying Austin was dominating Evert going into the 1979 U.S. Open, and nobody was saying Austin was dominating Evert after the 1980 U.S. Open. 1979-1981 was a very competitive period among Evert, Navratilova and Austin, with Evert ultimately finishing #1 two of those three years.
insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
The 13 match losing streak to Navratilova is still a clear negative for Evert. In addition to a hue positive for Navratilova as I doubt any other player in history could have managed beating a prime-ish Evert 13 times straight. I think that is undeniable, and anyone denying it is delusional (that does not completely exclude Evert from still having a possible case to be over Navratilova mind you). Outside of that though the slant some are trying to give her is very unfair.
Completely agree, and that's covered in the 1983-1984 dominance by Navratilova I listed, with the 13 match streak technically starting in December 1982 and then ending in their first match in 1985, a year in which Evert was able to take back the #1 ranking for a decent amount of time before Martina re-asserted herself.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
I think the 1985 no.1 ranking was in the balance until the last tournament of the year.
Who ever won would end 1985 as no.1.
Australian Open Final (December 7, 1985)
Winner: Martina Navratilova beat Chris Evert
Score: 6–2, 4–6, 6–2
Surface: Grass (played on grass at Kooyong Stadium at the time)
Grass certainly favoured Navratilova.
Looks like you're right. From the New York Times:
She also confirmed her No. 1 ranking for the year ahead of Mrs. Lloyd, with whom she has dueled for the top spot for more than a decade.
Mrs. Lloyd had been bidding for her third Australian Open title; Miss Navratilova won it for the third time.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
It is a fact that Evert was dominated by peak Austin, by peak Navratilova, by peak Graf.
And maybe even by peak Goolagong of all people!!
Except in the 1976-78 window Chris was dominated by better players, often brutally so.
15 matches against Tracy/Martina/Steffi in which she won less than 5 games....
insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
Which leads me to a question, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Who do you rank higher in singles alone, Martina or Chris? I know you value doubles so I am fairy sure you rank Martina ahead, hence why I specified singles alone. I go back and forth and often change my mind here, but often finish on Chris barely. What I do know is under the unofficial rules Martina fans try to push to help her vs Graf, Serena, and Court (how many slams she wins removing Chris, how many slams she wins if everyone played the Australian and French) it would now clearly be Chris as she would have like 12 slams more in that fantasy hypothetical than Martina in hers, which Navratilova fanatics which seem a dumb lot of people in general from my unfortunate experiences with most of them don't seem to get, LOL! Heck under these rules, which thankfully for Martina fans, I and almost nobody will abide by, Chris would be so far ahead of Martina in singles, she would probably rank ahead even giving high value to doubles. If the very stupid group of Navratilova fanatics had enough brain cells to figure this out they would drop that line of reasoning so fast and it would never come up again, and they would resort to other more legitimate ways to argue her case vs Serena and Graf; eg- tournament wins, YEC performance, the prestige of Wimbledon even if Graf and Serena's records there are near as outstanding, her doubles of course, her 6 losses in 3 years 82-84.
I admit I am a huge Chris fan and can't stand Martina (although have huge respect for her as a player and even LGBT activist until she began throwing Trans under the bus) so while I am one of the most unbiased and fair people here, I still probably have some subconscious bias in this case. I did acknowledge Navratilova's 13 match win streak over Evert while still in her prime is really good for her and a bad for Evert in this comparison.
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SwissMaestro81
Professional
So even if we eliminate those 13 consecutive losses to Navratilova Evert is still 12-22 win/loss against Martina from Wimbledon 1979 on!!
As I have stated already elsewhere there is often made far more of that famous Evert-Navratilova rivalry than it is really warranted.
Because until 1979 Eastbourne Evert was 25-8 win/loss against Navratilova.
From then on until 1986 she was 8-29 win/loss against Martina.
That means that firstly Navratilova was for Evert not more than for instance what Sabatini was later for Graf (29-11 win/loss for Steffi).
And then Evert was for Navratilova not more than what Sanchez was later for Graf (28-8 win/loss for Steffi).
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SwissMaestro81
Professional
Navratilova never did that.
So stop those hateful lies.
insideoutforehanders
Hall of Fame
You obviously missed where she began advocating for, even siding with disgusting bigot drifters like that fraud Riley Gaines, to keep Trans women out of sports. Certain LGBT organizations she was part of dropped her after that, and rightly so. I won't comment anymore on that as I prefer we stick to tennis.
Who dominated Evert from 1974-1975? In 1974, Evert was 3-3 against Goolagong, and, in 1975, Evert was 5-1 against Goolagong.
In a singles-only analysis, it's razor thing and comes down to whether you value consistency or higher peak level. I think I'm mostly on the same page as you that Evert is ahead by a hair b/c she was really the one damaged by the missed French/Australian Opens.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
Every decent human being is against trans "women" in women's sports.
80 % of Americans are.
Outside of the USA 95 % of the people are.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
I was told that Goolagong dominated Evert then.
That was when I had stated that Evert was dominated from 1979 to 1989 by her 3 strongest opponents Austin, Navratilova, Graf.
Someone chimed in and said that Goolagong and not Austin or Graf belonged to Chris's 3 strongest opponents and bolstered that claim with some 5-2 win/loss stats for Evonne against Chris in 1974/75 (I didn't check that since I am not very much interested in that era).
Or, putting it another way, the H2H is 25-11 in favor of Evert at the end of 1979.
In 1980, the H2H is 2-2, with Evert finishing #1.
In 1981, the H2H is 3-2 for Navratilova, but Evert finishes #1.
Starting in 1982, Navratilova dominates the H2H, and she dominates women's tennis starting in 1983.
Effectively, we have two eras of tennis. In the first era, wooden racquet era where tennis skills outweigh strength/fitness, Evert rules the roost.
In the second era, Navratilova starts committing herself to fitness after the Amelia Island disaster and switches to a graphite racquet in 1982. With those two things, Martina takes over.
Evert was made for the second era. Navratilova was made for the second era. Navratilova's dominance in the second era in no way diminishes Evert's dominance in the first era.
SwissMaestro81
Professional
I give the nod clearly to Navratilova.
Who would have dominated in 1987-90 as well if it weren't for Graf. Without Steffi she might have won 21-23 slams instead of "only" 18.
Whereas Evert profited a bit from weak competition in 1974-80 and was spent anyway in the late 80s, had maxed out her slam count of 18 anyway.
Plus Steffi has called Navratilova the greatest ever (she could not call herself that of course!) and not Evert. And I believe everything Steffi says.
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