Top 10 female players of all time

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buscemi said:
Or, putting it another way, the H2H is 25-11 in favor of Evert at the end of 1979.
In 1980, the H2H is 2-2, with Evert finishing #1.
In 1981, the H2H is 3-2 for Navratilova, but Evert finishes #1.

Starting in 1982, Navratilova dominates the H2H, and she dominates women's tennis starting in 1983.

Effectively, we have two eras of tennis. In the first era, wooden racquet era where tennis skills outweigh strength/fitness, Evert rules the roost.

In the second era, Navratilova starts committing herself to fitness after the Amelia Island disaster and switches to a graphite racquet in 1982. With those two things, Martina takes over.

Evert was made for the second era. Navratilova was made for the second era. Navratilova's dominance in the second era in no way diminishes Evert's dominance in the first era.
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Your best post this week!
Almost everything is spot on.
 
SwissMaestro81 said:
I give the nod clearly to Navratilova.
Who would have dominated in 1987-90 as well if it weren't for Graf. Without Steffi she might have won 21-23 slams instead of "only" 18.
Whereas Evert profited a bit from weak competition in 1974-80 and was spent anyway in the late 80s, had maxed out her slam count of 18 anyway.
Plus Steffi has called Navratilova the greatest ever (she could not call herself that of course!) and not Evert. And I believe everything Steffi says.
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The competition in 74-80 overall was deeper and better than most of the Navratilova era (82-86/87) Martina in her own autobiography which came out in 85 admited the field the past few years (82-84) totally sucked, and talked about how much better and deeper the 70s field when she was first coming up was (when a certain Chris Evert was mostly on top, although Martina got there for some of it too). This coming from the ultimate egoist who will do or say anything to make herself look better, and even she admits that in her own book, LOL! 1983 is still regarded today by most as the worst year and field, given the form of all players, in women's tennis history. The 4 womens slam finals that year were all unwatchable garbage. And guess which year Martina's best year happened to fall in.
 
insideoutforehanders said:
The competition in 74-80 overall was deeper and better than most of the Navratilova era (82-86/87) Martina in her own autobiography which came out in 85 admited the field the past few years (82-84) totally sucked, and talked about how much better and deeper the 70s field when she was first coming up was (when a certain Chris Evert was mostly on top, although Martina got there for some of it too). This coming from the ultimate egoist who will do or say anything to make herself look better, and even she admits that in her own book, LOL! 1983 is still regarded today by most as the worst year and field, given the form of all players, in women's tennis history. The 4 womens slam finals that year were all unwatchable garbage. And guess which year Martina's best year happened to fall in.
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Come on!
In 1975-78 someone like Virginia Wade was top 5, even No. 2 in 1975.
34-year-old BJK was No.2 later in 1977. And still No. 6 in 1980 - at age 37!
A 16-year-old Pam Shriver made a slam final in 1978!! :-D

Yes, the mid-80s were not good either.
Women's tennis made a great leap forward in the late 80s and 90s.
 
SwissMaestro81 said:
Come on!
In 1975-78 someone like Virginia Wade was top 5, even No. 2 in 1975.
34-year-old BJK was No.2 later in 1977. And still No. 6 in 1980 - at age 37!
A 16-year-old Pam Shriver made a slam final in 1978!! :-D

Yes, the mid-80s were not good either.
Women's tennis made a great leap forward in the late 80s and 90s.
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You act like Wade is mediocre. She won slams at 3 different venues and posted impressive wins for each.

1968 US Open- Billie Jean King who won 5 of her last 6 slams played i believe going in.

1972 Australian- Goolagong, the reigning Wimbledon and US Open Champion.

1977 Wimbledon- Evert of course
 
insideoutforehanders said:
You act like Wade is mediocre. She won slams at 3 different venues and posted impressive wins for each.

1968 US Open- Billie Jean King who won 5 of her last 6 slams played i believe going in.

1972 Australian- Goolagong, the reigning Wimbledon and US Open Champion.

1977 Wimbledon- Evert of course
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No, Wade was not mediocre. She made 3 slam finals, won all of them (like Capriati in the early 00s!).
But her still being ranked at No. 4 in 1978 at age 33 was a sign of the weak 1970s.

Or take BJK.
No. 2 at age 34 in 1977. Still No. 5 at age 36 in 1979. And No. 6 at age 37 in 1980!
 
SwissMaestro81 said:
No, Wade was not mediocre. She made 3 slam finals, won all of them (like Capriati in the early 00s!).
But her still being ranked at No. 4 in 1978 at age 33 was a sign of the weak 1970s.

Or take BJK.
No. 2 at age 34 in 1977. Still No. 5 at age 36 in 1979. And No. 6 at age 37 in 1980!
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And Djokovic dominated tennis well into his 30s. Laver did the Grand Slam in a great field (just look at his 69 slam draws) at 32. Also aren't you the one who says Navratilova was great and still close to her best in 88-90 at 31-33 (which I largely agree on btw)? So which is it, is it possible for some players to be near peak in their 30s or are they automatically aged and well past their best at that age?
 
I think we can all agree Steffi was not one of Chris’s strongest opponents due to her abrupt decline at the same time as Steffi’s even more swift ascent. When Steffi got her first win over Chris in April 1986, Chris only had one single slam and one single slam final left in her tank. By the USO she was suffering from the first serious injury of her career that would have her stop playing a full season for the first time since 1971. After that ‘86 French, it was all ova for Chris as a threat to #1 whatsoever.
 
insideoutforehanders said:
And Djokovic dominated tennis well into his 30s. Laver did the Grand Slam in a great field (just look at his 69 slam draws) at 32. Also aren't you the one who says Navratilova was great and still close to her best in 88-90 at 31-33 (which I largely agree on btw)? So which is it, is it possible for some players to be near peak in their 30s or are they automatically aged and well past their best at that age?
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Navratilova was still great in 1988/89 at age 31/32.
No comparison to Wade at 33 or BJK at 34-37.
 
EvonneFedererBorgster said:
I think we can all agree Steffi was not one of Chris’s strongest opponents due to her abrupt decline at the same time as Steffi’s even more swift ascent. When Steffi got her first win over Chris in April 1986, Chris only had one single slam and one single slam final left in her tank. By the USO she was suffering from the first serious injury of her career that would have her stop playing a full season for the first time since 1971. After that ‘86 French, it was all ova for Chris as a threat to #1 whatsoever.
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That is a myth.
Evert of 1987/88 had still almost the same match winning percentage in 1987/88 (88.1 %) as in 1983-86 (89.2 %) IF we exclude her matches against Graf.
It was Graf who suddenly made her look old and her game dated.
 
EvonneFedererBorgster said:
It’s only a myth in your cherry picking mind, SwissM
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Well, it is simply a fact that Evert's decline in 1987/88 compared to 1983-86 was mainly caused by Graf.
Chris was 6-1 H2H against Steffi in 1983-86 but 0-5 in 1987/88. That showed of course in her annual match winning percentages.

Quite similar, BTW, with Navratilova in 1988/89. Martina was 0-3 H2H against Steffi in 1989, probably Steffi's best year ever.
Without that Martina would have had a 73-4 win/loss record. Quite similar to her numbers in 1985 (84-5) and 1986 (89-3). Again - a decline mainly caused by Graf.

I just say that because Graf detractors often dismiss her success in the late 80s with Evert and Navratilova allegedly being suddenly "too old".
 
buscemi said:
I mean, Martina was pretty good at age 33 in 1990, right? Won Wimbledon, Indian Wells, Hilton Head, Chicago, Washington, and Eastbourne. DNP the Australian or French.
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Pretty good but not great anymore.
After winning her first 3 tournaments in winter 1990 she won only 3 more of her remaining 10.
Her Wimbledon title (which she won only due to Graf's fall from grace) made the year look better than it actually was.
 
SwissMaestro81 said:
Pretty good but not great anymore.
After winning her first 3 tournaments in winter 1990 she won only 3 more of her remaining 10.
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That's an odd way to put it, IMHO.

Navratilova won six of her first nine tournaments in 1990 (Chicago, Washington, Indian Wells, Hilton Head, Eastbourne, Wimbledon), with her three losses all being on clay, here worst surface.

Navratilova then played great at Manhattan Beach, extending Seles to a third set tiebreaker in the final. It was only at the U.S. Open in September that she started showing signs of decline. At that point, Martina was a month shy of turning 34.

Meanwhile Wade turned 33 in July 1978. From August-November 1978, she promptly won Mahwah, Tokyo, and Oldsmar, which was her 55th title as a pro and 78th overall. She wouldn't win a title for the rest of her career.
 
buscemi said:
That's an odd way to put it, IMHO.

Navratilova won six of her first nine tournaments in 1990 (Chicago, Washington, Indian Wells, Hilton Head, Eastbourne, Wimbledon), with her three losses all being on clay, here worst surface.

Navratilova then played great at Manhattan Beach, extending Seles to a third set tiebreaker in the final. It was only at the U.S. Open in September that she started showing signs of decline. At that point, Martina was a month shy of turning 34.

Meanwhile Wade turned 33 in July 1978. From August-November 1978, she promptly won Mahwah, Tokyo, and Oldsmar, which was her 55th title as a pro and 78th overall. She wouldn't win a title for the rest of her career.
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So Wade was still quite good in 78, despite age. People mature at different rates, it is hard to say Wade did not have a career year in 77, despite her age.
 
insideoutforehanders said:
So Wade was still quite good in 78, despite age. People mature at different rates, it is hard to say Wade did not have a career year in 77, despite her age.
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Oh yeah, my point is just that Wade and Navratilova declined at similar ages.

Wade turned 33 in July 1978, won three tournaments over the next four months, and then never won a tournament again.

Navratilova turned 33 in October 1989, played well through Wimbledon in 1990, and then had a noticeable decline (but was still quite good).

So, they were both 33 and change when they clearly fell off.
 
buscemi said:
Oh yeah, my point is just that Wade and Navratilova declined at similar ages.

Wade turned 33 in July 1978, won three tournaments over the next four months, and then never won a tournament again.

Navratilova turned 33 in October 1989, played well through Wimbledon in 1990, and then had a noticeable decline (but was still quite good).

So, they were both 33 and change when they clearly fell off.
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Yes. I understand SwissMaestro's thinking as the bad US Open result makes it look like a clear drop off, but that is the only point of the year it really began.
 
buscemi said:
That's an odd way to put it, IMHO.

Navratilova won six of her first nine tournaments in 1990 (Chicago, Washington, Indian Wells, Hilton Head, Eastbourne, Wimbledon), with her three losses all being on clay, here worst surface.

Navratilova then played great at Manhattan Beach, extending Seles to a third set tiebreaker in the final. It was only at the U.S. Open in September that she started showing signs of decline. At that point, Martina was a month shy of turning 34.

Meanwhile Wade turned 33 in July 1978. From August-November 1978, she promptly won Mahwah, Tokyo, and Oldsmar, which was her 55th title as a pro and 78th overall. She wouldn't win a title for the rest of her career.
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Martina first won 3 of 3 tournaments.
Then 3 of the next 6.
Then zero of the next 4.
OK so?

Are we now comparing the great Navratilova with some women named Wade or what?
 
SwissMaestro81 said:
Martina first won 3 of 3 tournaments.
Then 3 of the next 6.
Then zero of the next 4.
OK so?

Are we now comparing the great Navratilova with some women named Wade or what?
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Clearly there's no comparing Martina and Virginia overall. The point is simply that they both clearly declined respective to their own peaks between 33 and 34.

And, as for Martina's stats, I think you'd agree that the 3/6 tournaments Martina lost after the first four all being on clay was a big factor. In 1989, Navratiliova was 6-2 on clay, losing in Hilton Head to Zvereva and Sabatini in Amelia Island. I'd say he rclay results in 1990 were actually better. For example, she beat Martinez and Sabatini in Rome before losing to Seles in the Italian Open final.
 
buscemi said:
Clearly there's no comparing Martina and Virginia overall. The point is simply that they both clearly declined respective to their own peaks between 33 and 34.

And, as for Martina's stats, I think you'd agree that the 3/6 tournaments Martina lost after the first four all being on clay was a big factor. In 1989, Navratiliova was 6-2 on clay, losing in Hilton Head to Zvereva and Sabatini in Amelia Island. I'd say he rclay results in 1990 were actually better. For example, she beat Martinez and Sabatini in Rome before losing to Seles in the Italian Open final.
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Exactly. Martina had not dominated clay since 1984, which is probably the only year she ever did ti boot. She was never in a trillion years going to in her early 30s, she just chose to play more clay events in 90, and had quite good results in them, just very predictably not winning them, hence the slightly lower win stats.
 
buscemi said:
Oh yeah, my point is just that Wade and Navratilova declined at similar ages.

Wade turned 33 in July 1978, won three tournaments over the next four months, and then never won a tournament again.

Navratilova turned 33 in October 1989, played well through Wimbledon in 1990, and then had a noticeable decline (but was still quite good).

So, they were both 33 and change when they clearly fell off.
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Difference is
- that Wade won her last tournament at age 33 years and 4 months and
- that Navratilova won 21 tournaments after that age and her last one at age 37 years and 4 months.
 
buscemi said:
Clearly there's no comparing Martina and Virginia overall. The point is simply that they both clearly declined respective to their own peaks between 33 and 34.

And, as for Martina's stats, I think you'd agree that the 3/6 tournaments Martina lost after the first four all being on clay was a big factor. In 1989, Navratiliova was 6-2 on clay, losing in Hilton Head to Zvereva and Sabatini in Amelia Island. I'd say he rclay results in 1990 were actually better. For example, she beat Martinez and Sabatini in Rome before losing to Seles in the Italian Open final.
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I agree that after Martina's great run from June 1989 to March 1990 with 10 tournament wins and only 3 losses (all to Graf in hard-fought big finals!) the decline was surprisingly sharp with only 3 tournament wins but 8 losses until February 1991.
 
insideoutforehanders said:
Exactly. Martina had not dominated clay since 1984, which is probably the only year she ever did ti boot. She was never in a trillion years going to in her early 30s, she just chose to play more clay events in 90, and had quite good results in them, just very predictably not winning them, hence the slightly lower win stats.
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Martina played 3 clay tournaments in 1987, 4 in 1988 (2 titles), 2 in 1989, 4 in 1990 (one title), 3 in 1991.
I see no big difference there.
Quite interesting that she played only one clay tournament in both 1992 and 1993 then but then ended her career in 1994 by playing five tournaments on that surface - she obviously wanted to say good bye everywhere from Hilton Head to Roland Garros!

But yes, as a S&V specialist she never was a great clay courter.
From 1986 on she won only 3 clay titles in 25 attempts.
Career-wise just 18 clay titles but 51 clay match losses (not even counting her 3 losses in 2004).

So no wonder that Chris Evert won so much on clay..... :p
 
Yeah it was odd that Martina played so many clay events in ‘94, obviously as a fare thee well. But sadly skipped the USO au revoir.
I was lucky enough to see her final regular tour match, a 3 set thriller with world #1 Raunchie that Martina really should have won. It would have been a fitting way to go out, even though she still had the Madison Square Garden good bye a few weeks later.
 
I think one thing that we all need to do is apply the same criteria to everyone. Sometimes the player we like is better than one we didn't, and vice versa.

For example, ripping the entire decade of the 1970s because Virginia Wade was #2 for a short period of time and 34-year-Old King was #2 for the 1977 season is a bit much.

How about in 1995, when Aranxta Sanchez was actually #1! Yes for a 12-month period of time, Graf was out played by Aranxta Sanchez. I liked her, but there is no way that Sanchez ever would have been #1 in the 1970s.
Or how about the 1993 season? 37-year-old Martina Navratliova was #3 for the year. (Sanchez was #2). Where was the depth there?

Or it's embarrassing for Navratilova to lose to a 36-year-old King but Graf losing to a 36-year-old Navratilova doesn't seem to mean anything.
Or winning percentages are a huge deal except when it comes to Chris Evert.

We need to not act like lawyers and politicians who act as if the other side has no case whatsoever and ignore anything good about the other player. Meanwhile, only looking at the good of the player that they like. Most of don't do this a lot but obviously some do.
 
Hard Court said:
How about in 1995, when Aranxta Sanchez was actually #1! Yes for a 12-month period of time, Graf was out played by Aranxta Sanchez. I liked her, but there is no way that Sanchez ever would have been #1 in the 1970s.
...
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ASV never outplayed Graf, not even in 1994.
Having said that, I have no doubt that peak ASV would have been #1 in the mid-70s.
Hard Court said:
Or it's embarrassing for Navratilova to lose to a 36-year-old King but Graf losing to a 36-year-old Navratilova doesn't seem to mean anything.
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Graf lost 6-4 3-6 3-6 against a 36-year-old Navratilova. Doesn't mean anything indeed.
Navratilova lost 1-6 3-6 against a 36-year-old King. Embarrassing indeed.
 
Hard Court said:
We need to not act like lawyers and politicians who act as if the other side has no case whatsoever and ignore anything good about the other player. Meanwhile, only looking at the good of the player that they like. Most of don't do this a lot but obviously some do.
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What irony coming from you when you do that as much or more than anyone, especialy when it comes to your obvious favorite players like Navratilova, Evert, Court, Austin, King, and Goolagong. :-D *hypocrite*
 
Hard Court said:
The numbers don't lie?
Evert won 125 straight matches on clay. No one done that in more than 60 years. So she must be the best clay court player of that time.
Counting all surfaces, Evert has the highest winning % of anyone in the last 60 years. So she must be best overall player of that time period.
The numbers don't lie.
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Including ALL surfaces, Margret Court has the highest winning % of any female player in the open era and since 1960 when women's tennis was already open.
 
Not sure if you could tell, but in that quote from several days ago, I was being sarcastic. The same person who was going on and on about certain statistics was saying that Evert was not that good.
Agree that in women's tennis, the game officially going open in 1968 was not the game changer in the women's game as it was in the men's, in terms of rating players.
Court and Evert are right up there with Graf and Navratilova for the top spot.
Court was before my time and don't particularly like what have seen of her as a person. (Didn't like Navratilova at all. Graf had no personality, so I usually didn't care if she won or not. Liked Evert.)
But yeah, Court was excellent on all surfaces. Obviously, she had the serve and volley game, which was best suited for fast surfaces, but she had good groundstrokes and was great on clay as well.
 
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Hard Court said:
Graf had no personality, so I usually didn't care if she won or not.
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“There will never be another tennis girl with Steffi Graf's aura.“
(Ronald Atkin, The Independent, August 15, 1999)

“I’ve never seen a woman with this aura in my life.”
(David Letterman, US talk show host, on Steffi Graf, 2009)

"Andre Agassi's my idol, but I have a hard time being in Steffi Graf's presence without being incredibly starstruck.“
(Andy Roddick, February 2024)

But the hate never stops....
 
I don't hate her. As I said before, I usually didn't root for or against her. Didn't like Navratliova and rooted against her. Some great players I liked, some I disliked, some in between like Graf. Most fans are like that.
I just wish that the conversations would be fair and about what a player did or didn't do. Not just cherry picking for our favorites.
 
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Hard Court said:
I don't her. As I said before, I usually didn't root for or against her. Didn't like Navratliova and rooted against her. Some great players I liked, some I disliked, some in between like Graf. Most fans are like that.
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Steffi was one of the most charismatic women players of all time with her quiet confidence and elegant manners.

But I think for you someone like Serena Williams, Megan Rapinoe or Meghan Markle have more "personality".
To each their own...
 
Hard Court said:
The numbers don't lie?
Evert won 125 straight matches on clay. No one done that in more than 60 years. So she must be the best clay court player of that time.
Counting all surfaces, Evert has the highest winning % of anyone in the last 60 years. So she must be best overall player of that time period.
The numbers don't lie.
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Margaret Court has a higher winning career than Chrissie.
 
Verbal Volley said:
Billie Jean won the US Open in 1971, 1972, and 1974. She also won Wimbledon in 1972, 1973 and 1975. She also won Roland Garros in 1972. That equals seven final round victories in a row.
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And what has that to do with the above discussion?
It was about Wade beating King at the USO 68 and what King had won at the slams before.
1971-75 are years which were NOT before 1968.
 
Chris was just a handful of matches away from a noncalendar slam in ‘83. Had she not gotten sick, she surely makes the final and is just two sets away. Not many can say that.
 
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We don’t know that. Martina was tight after the French Open debacle which echoed 1982 USO ToxoplasmosisGate. As Ted Tingling wisely said ‘she goes from arrogance to panic, with nothing in between’. She was vulnerable at Wimbledon and was probably thrilled she didn’t have to play Chris there.
 
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NadalAgassi said:
How can anyone rank Steffi Graf at #1. What a joke. She doesnt hold the most title at any of the 4 Grand Slams or the most overall slams or the most overall tournaments. She didnt spend the most time at #1 taking into account the players who played before the ranking system was introduced. She isnt even the best player of any decade, 80s she doesnt come close since she was only a noteable player half the decade or less, and 90s it is Seles. Even with weak competition she couldnt dominate for long enough to set any historical marks.

And she doesnt have the greatest dominance, best consistency, best longevity, toughest competition, best rivalry, or best overall game either.
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Although I don't have her at #1, I can certainly understand how a rational person could. Steffi has two singular accomplishments that put her in the GOAT conversation.

1. She won the Golden Slam. Only human to achieve that.
2. She won all 4 majors at least 4 separate times. Only human to achieve that.
 
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EvonneFedererBorgster said:
We don’t know that. Martina was tight after the French Open debacle which echoed 1982 USO ToxoplasmosisGate. As Ted Tingling wisely said ‘she goes from arrogance to panic, with nothing in between’. She was vulnerable at Wimbledon and was probably thrilled she didn’t have to play Chris there.
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Are you trying to sell the idea that Evert might beat Navratilova in a hypothetical 1983 Wimbledon final because Martina lost to Horvath a month earlier on clay?
 
5-30 said:
1. She won the Golden Slam. Only human to achieve that.
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I still maintain that the Golden Slam is overrated. Maureen Connolly and Margaret Court both won the CYGS + the next 2 biggest events of those years, with no opportunity to play Olympic tennis. In 1988, Graf was straight setted in the semifinals by Shriver at the WTA Finals, the fifth biggest event of the year (arguably the fourth biggest, ahead of the Australian Open).
 
buscemi said:
I still maintain that the Golden Slam is overrated. Maureen Connolly and Margaret Court both won the CYGS + the next 2 biggest events of those years, with no opportunity to play Olympic tennis. In 1988, Graf was straight setted in the semifinals by Shriver at the WTA Finals, the fifth biggest event of the year (arguably the fourth biggest, ahead of the Australian Open).
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It's as much about dumb luck as it is about tennis. You need to have your great dominant year when it happens to arrive. If it lands on an Olmpics year post 1987, you're good to go! It's all incredibly arbitrary, and forced upon the sport by mass media campaign.
 
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I am not trying to sell anything. lol. Martina was very vulnerable after that shock loss to Horvath. She completely upended her entire team. To her it was a public catastrophe and the world took notice. Did she even get rid of Lieberman or just the non-romantic members of her team.

Had she met an inform Hana or Chris on a mission, who knows what would happen. Look how she fell apart in her last three slams -‘82 USO Shriver, ‘82 AO Evert and then the ridiculous ’83 FO Horvath spectacle.

What I am saying is even at her absolute peak, Ted Tingling was spot on. Chris on the other hand…
 
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