Top 10 female players of all time

[buscemi]

You might want to check these players for their actual seeding in the actual tournament she beat them in and check their WTA ranking. Some of these efforts feel like padding. If Evert beat these same people in these years, it would have been sited as evidence of how weak the draw was, not how strong the draw was. Heck, even when they won those slams, it was considered evidence of how weak the draw was!

I included some of this, but I'll now add the year-end rankings for each player Austin beat on clay:

1977 Hilton Head: Dianne Fromholtz #8​

1977 U.S. Open: Sue Barker #5​

1977 U.S. Open: Virginia Ruzici #16 (won the French Open the next year).​

1978 Hilton Head: Rosie Casals ?? #16 in ELO according to Tennis Abstract​

1979 Hilton Head: Evonne Goolagong #4​

1979 Hilton Head: Kerry Reid #9​

1979 Fed Cup: Kerry Reid #9​

1979 Rome: Mima Jausovec #20​

1979 Rome: Virginia Ruzici #13​

1979 Rome: Chris Evert Evert #2​

1979 Rome: Sylvia Hanika #16​

1979 Wightman Cup: Sue Barker #10​

1979 Wightman Cup: Virginia Wade #8​

1980 Orlando: Andrea Jaeger #7​

1980 Fed Cip: Hana Mandlíková #4​

1980 Fed Cup: Olga Morozova n/a (USSR didn't let her play the pro tour due to apartheid, but she took part in Fed Cup)​

1980 Fed Cup: Wendy Turnbull #8​

So, 11/17 of these wins were over top 10 players, 15/17 were over top 16 players, one was over #20 Jausovec, who had just won and made the finals of the French the past two years, and one was over an involuntarily retired Morozova.

 

[BTURNER]

I included some of this, but I'll now add the year-end rankings for each player Austin beat on clay:

1977 Hilton Head: Dianne Fromholtz #8​

1977 U.S. Open: Sue Barker #5​

1977 U.S. Open: Virginia Ruzici #16 (won the French Open the next year).​

1978 Hilton Head: Rosie Casals ?? #16 in ELO according to Tennis Abstract​

1979 Hilton Head: Evonne Goolagong #4​

1979 Hilton Head: Kerry Reid #9​

1979 Fed Cup: Kerry Reid #9​

1979 Rome: Mima Jausovec #20​

1979 Rome: Virginia Ruzici #13​

1979 Rome: Chris Evert Evert #2​

1979 Rome: Sylvia Hanika #16​

1979 Wightman Cup: Sue Barker #10​

1979 Wightman Cup: Virginia Wade #8​

1980 Orlando: Andrea Jaeger #7​

1980 Fed Cip: Hana Mandlíková #4​

1980 Fed Cup: Olga Morozova n/a (USSR didn't let her play the pro tour due to apartheid, but she took part in Fed Cup)​

1980 Fed Cup: Wendy Turnbull #8​

So, 11/17 of these wins were over top 10 players, 15/17 were over top 16 players, one was over #20 Jausovec, who had just won and made the finals of the French the past two years, and one was over an involuntarily retired Morozova.

Well If I reverse this and would have said a win over Austin in this tournament represents an 'upset', then I can't very well call her victory over them a 'strong win'. I think that line is somewhere between 5-10 spot's below Austins current ranking at the time of the match. I'd say 5 is too high and 10 is really kind of low to still claim much pride in the victory.

 

[buscemi]

Well If I reverse this and would have said a win over Austin in this tournament represents an 'upset', then I can't very well call her victory over them a 'strong win'. I think that line is somewhere between 5-10 spot's below Austins current ranking at the time of the match. I'd say 5 is too high and 10 is really kind of low to still claim much pride in the victory.

That's fair, but, putting it another way, from 1977-1980, on clay, Austin beat:

-every French Open champion from 1974-1981 (Evert, Barker, Jaušovec, Ruzici, Mandlíková)​

-every U.S. Open champion (Evert) and finalist (Goolagong, Turnbull) for the three years it was played on clay from 1975-1977.​

-a bunch of losing French Open finalists from 1973-1984 (Evert, Morozova, Jaušovec, Turnbull, Ruzici, Hanika, Jaeger)​

In other words, from ages 14-17, Austin beat every top clay player on clay except Navratilova.

 

[BTURNER]

That's fair, but, putting it another way, from 1977-1980, on clay, Austin beat:

-every French Open champion from 1974-1981 (Evert, Barker, Jaušovec, Ruzici, Mandlíková)​

-every U.S. Open champion (Evert) and finalist (Goolagong, Turnbull) for the three years it was played on clay from 1975-1977.​

-a bunch of losing French Open finalists from 1973-1984 (Evert, Morozova, Jaušovec, Turnbull, Ruzici, Hanika, Jaeger)​

In other words, from ages 14-17, Austin beat every top clay player on clay except Navratilova.

You say it a 'fair' point and go right on by...

Its not that they are bad players, but most of these are the exact same names we have all been sneering at as representative of how incredibly weak the European clay fields were in 70's and early 80's except
1. often years outside the one big great victory you say gave them credibility
2 most of them were outside the top ten when Austin beat them.
3. Others were the women who lost to the women above in the same time frame

If you could dig up a victory over Jadwiga Jędrzejowska ( losing finalist at RG in 1938), you'd do it, except you would have to literally have dig up Jadwiga Jędrzejowska and put a racket into the rotting hand of the remains!

Just re-edit the list and don't name- drop ( this is the commonplace practice in FP of dropping in 'name' players', and hoping nobody really looks at how well they actually were playing when you need them to play well to impress)

 

[buscemi]

You say it a 'fair' point and go right on by...

Its not that they are bad players, but most of these are the exact same names we have all been sneering at as representative of how incredibly weak the European clay fields were in 70's and early 80's except
1. often years outside the one big great victory you say gave them credibility
2 most of them were outside the top ten when Austin beat them.
3. Others were the women who lost to the women above in the same time frame

If you could dig up a victory over Jadwiga Jędrzejowska ( losing finalist at RG in 1938), you'd do it, except you would have to literally have dig up Jadwiga Jędrzejowska and put a racket into the rotting hand of the remains!

Just re-edit the list and ditch the ones that were NO LONGER top players when Austin beat them, or who never were top players but for a single solid performance that got them in a history book as a finalist.

I'm not sure why you're saying that "most of them were outside the top ten when Austin beat them." As I noted, 11/17 were in the top 10 when Austin beat them.

With regard to four of the remaining six:

-Ruzici at the 1977 U.S. Open was about 8 months away from winning the French Open in 1978.​

-Ruzici at the 1979 Italian Open was in between her French title a year earlier and a French final the next year.​

-The win over Jaušovec was less than a year after she made the French final on the heels of taking the title the year before.​

-The win over Hanicka was in the 1979 Italian Open final after Sylvia had beaten Tomanova, Fromholtz, and Goolagong.​

That leaves Casals and Morozova, who I agree were past their primes.

 

[Kiam]

Which Nr. 1 player in the open era had a stronger main opponent in her two greatest years than Steffi Graf had in 1988/89 with Martina Navratilova?

Martina was an old lady at that point...still amazing, but Steffi was a teenager. The late 90s/early 00s was the toughest competition. Graf, Hingis, Henin, Clijsters, Serena, pre-sick Venus, Davenport, Capriati, Mauresmo.....all of them were marvels. No other era compares.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Martina was an old lady at that point...still amazing, but Steffi was a teenager. The late 90s/early 00s was the toughest competition. Graf, Hingis, Henin, Clijsters, Serena, pre-sick Venus, Davenport, Capriati, Mauresmo.....all of them were marvels. No other era compares.

Yes, but yet the question has not been answered - was there ever a better player as No. 2 than Martina Navratilova in 1988/89?

For me the Graf/Navratilova duo of 1988/89 was better than an other duo on the tour in 1997-2009.
Yes, and Martina the strongest No. 2 of all time which makes Steffi's success in 1988/89 even greater.

 

[Kiam]

Yes, but yet the question has not been answered - was there ever a better player as No. 2 than Martina Navratilova in 1988/89?

For me the Graf/Navratilova duo of 1988/89 was better than an other duo on the tour in 1997-2009.
Yes, and Martina the strongest No. 2 of all time which makes Steffi's success in 1988/89 even greater.

Seles and Steffi might have been better

 

[EvonneFedererBorgster]

Graf/Navratilova was so amazing. Two unbelievable athletes with every shot in the book.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Seles and Steffi might have been better

1991/92 Seles (10 losses) was worse than 1988/89 Steffi (5 losses).
And 1991/92 Steffi (15 losses) was worse than 1988/89 Martina (14 losses).

Yes, I know, the numbers of losses don't tell everything. But still a lot.

 

[Hard Court]

Yes, but yet the question has not been answered - was there ever a better player as No. 2 than Martina Navratilova in 1988/89?

For me the Graf/Navratilova duo of 1988/89 was better than an other duo on the tour in 1997-2009.
Yes, and Martina the strongest No. 2 of all time which makes Steffi's success in 1988/89 even greater.

Yes there have been better #2 players than Navratilova in 1988 and 1989. Many in fact. Grand Slam. Since besides Graf the field was so weak, she could get away with ugly wins a lot. She was better in 1987 than 1988. She was better in 1986 than she was in 1987.

She lost in the 4th round at the French in 1988, She didn't even bother playing it 1989.

Here are some clear cases where Navratliova was not as good as the #2 player that year.

1973 -King
1974 - Goolagong
1976 - Goolagong
1978- Evert
1979- Evert
1980 - Austin
1981- Austin
1982 - Evert
1983 - Evert
1984 - Evert
1985 - Evert
1986 - Evert

 

[Kiam]

1991/92 Seles (10 losses) was worse than 1988/89 Steffi (5 losses).
And 1991/92 Steffi (15 losses) was worse than 1988/89 Martina (14 losses).

Yes, I know, the numbers of losses don't tell everything. But still a lot.

 

[Kiam]

83/84 Evert lost 16. Navratiova lost 3. 84/85 Evert lost 16 also. Navratilova lost 7. but it was similar for years before and two year after. they hardly lost to anyone but each other....and Tracy Austin briefly. Any objective look at the record shows them to be the best players of the open era. Chris won 90% of her matches, higher than anyone, except Margaret Court, who ohnly played half her career in the open era. Martina won 87% of her matches, but her period of dominance was unmatched, and no one stabbed her biggest rival. They both played hundreds more matches than anyone. Martina won over 1400, Chris over 1300. Steffi was just over 900. Serena had over 800. They each won 18 slams, but Chris skipped 13 slam tournaments when she was among the top four, and about ten where she was the favortie. MArtina skipped 10 where she was fovorite or runner-up. They did this because the WTA was running other matches, more important for its survival, more lucrative, and safer (you didn't have to fly down under).

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Yes there have been better #2 players than Navratilova in 1988 and 1989. Many in fact. Grand Slam. Since besides Graf the field was so weak, she could get away with ugly wins a lot. She was better in 1987 than 1988. She was better in 1986 than she was in 1987.

She lost in the 4th round at the French in 1988, She didn't even bother playing it 1989.

Here are some clear cases where Navratliova was not as good as the #2 player that year.

1973 -King
1974 - Goolagong
1976 - Goolagong
1978- Evert
1979- Evert
1980 - Austin
1981- Austin
1982 - Evert
1983 - Evert
1984 - Evert
1985 - Evert
1986 - Evert

Just watch a few Graf/Navratilova matches of 1988/89 and compare them with Navratilova/Evert matches of 1983/84.
And I won't even mention the lovely Evonne Goolagong....

 

[SwissMaestro81]

83/84 Evert lost 16. Navratiova lost 3. 84/85 Evert lost 16 also. Navratilova lost 7. but it was similar for years before and two year after. they hardly lost to anyone but each other....and Tracy Austin briefly. Any objective look at the record shows them to be the best players of the open era. ...

Just have a look at their opponents in the mid-1980s.....
At least Evert would have had no chance against Graf, Seles, Hingis, the Williams sisters, Davenport, Henin. Young Steffi simply toyed with her in 1987-89.

 

[Verbal Volley]

Singles only. I decided to reward being willing to travel, over not being willing to travel over an ocean to find more competition, Lenglen should have crossed the pond more than once and proved she could dominate here. Whether Papa didn't allow it, or she was too 'frail' or whether she hated the trip, or hated being called a liar, or was scared of Wills. The ships go both ways, and Wills managed to book trips just a few years later than Lenglen.
Very tough call on whether to move Serena up to 4. Her finals conversion rate is way above Chris and Martina, but her consistency was horrible. When Serena was good, she was very very good, but when she was bad.... I decided in the end, that neither Chris nor Martina was responsible for the other existing and stomping on each other's final's conversion stat (Graf did as much stomping on Martina in slam finals). And the sheer volume of their 'tournaments won' on the tour deserved its reward.
1.Graf
2.Court
3. Wills
4.Evert
5.Navratilova
6.Serena
7.Connolly
8.Lenglen
9. King
10. Seles

You are the last person I want to disagree with because I respect your opinions and knowledge of the sport so much. Ranking all-timers is really very subjective, isn't it? That is why I am bothered when people take to attacking each other about where they rank certain players. Also, in many cases, it was not a case of "not being willing to travel" so much as it was too expensive to travel to certain tournaments, as well as the fact that (especially in the case of the USA) the US(L)TA actually decided who would be granted the right to play in the Slams, particularly Oz and Roland Garros. As an example, Billie Jean was not even allowed to enter Roland Garros until she was already #1 in 1967. Whether allowing her to play earlier would have made her a better clay court player is questionable, especially since her biggest fault was her impatience to end rallies and get to the net as quickly as possible. Having said all that, you and I share the exact same ten players in our all-time rankings. Here are mine...
1. Suzanne Lenglen
2. Serena Williams
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Steffi Graf
5. Margaret Court
6. Maureen Connolly
7. Helen Wills Moody
8. Chrissie Evert
9. Billie Jean King
10. Monica Seles

 

[PDJ]

You are the last person I want to disagree with because I respect your opinions and knowledge of the sport so much. Ranking all-timers is really very subjective, isn't it? That is why I am bothered when people take to attacking each other about where they rank certain players. Also, in many cases, it was not a case of "not being willing to travel" so much as it was too expensive to travel to certain tournaments, as well as the fact that (especially in the case of the USA) the US(L)TA actually decided who would be granted the right to play in the Slams, particularly Oz and Roland Garros. As an example, Billie Jean was not even allowed to enter Roland Garros until she was already #1 in 1967. Whether allowing her to play earlier would have made her a better clay court player is questionable, especially since her biggest fault was her impatience to end rallies and get to the net as quickly as possible. Having said all that, you and I share the exact same ten players in our all-time rankings. Here are mine...
1. Suzanne Lenglen
2. Serena Williams
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Steffi Graf
5. Margaret Court
6. Maureen Connolly
7. Helen Wills Moody
8. Chrissie Evert
9. Billie Jean King
10. Monica Seles

Chris Evert at no.8.
As you write, it's subjective . .

 

[urban]

As i wrote before, Lenglen and Wills are hard to rate at all. Nobody could have done better than these two. Even if you put the 1988 Graf into the shoes of 1923 or 1925 Lenglen, she could not have scored better results. If you lose nothing, no match, no set, less than 1 or 2 games per set,, you cannot do any better. In 1925 at Wim, Lenglen lost just 5 games in 6 matches. And for legacy in arts and media,, nobody else comes close. Nobody else was hailed as goddess by leading artists and writers, nobody else was painted and sculptured by Diego Rivera or Alex Calder.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

As i wrote before, Lenglen and Wills are hard to rate at all. Nobody could have done better than these two. Even if you put the 1988 Graf into the shoes of 1923 or 1925 Lenglen, she could not have scored better results. If you lose nothing, no match, no set, less than 1 or 2 games per set,, you cannot do any better. In 1925 at Wim, Lenglen lost just 5 games in 6 matches. And for legacy in arts and media,, nobody else comes close. Nobody else was hailed as goddess by leading artists and writers, nobody else was painted and sculptured by Diego Rivera or Alex Calder.

So what?
Serena and Steffi even had cars named after them!

Nissan Serena - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1988 - OPEL CORSA STEFFI SPECIAL | Fabricante OPEL | PlanetCarsZ

Entre o final dos anos 80 e meados dos 90, Steffi Graf era uma das estrelas do tênis feminino. Ao longo de sua carreira, a tenista alemã venceu um...

www.planetcarsz.com

 

[buscemi]

As i wrote before, Lenglen and Wills are hard to rate at all. Nobody could have done better than these two. Even if you put the 1988 Graf into the shoes of 1923 or 1925 Lenglen, she could not have scored better results. If you lose nothing, no match, no set, less than 1 or 2 games per set,, you cannot do any better. In 1925 at Wim, Lenglen lost just 5 games in 6 matches. And for legacy in arts and media,, nobody else comes close. Nobody else was hailed as goddess by leading artists and writers, nobody else was painted and sculptured by Diego Rivera or Alex Calder.

Then, there's Alice Marble, who won her last 128 matches, worked on Wonder Woman, and was a spy during World War 2.

 

[Hard Court]

Just have a look at their opponents in the mid-1980s.....
At least Evert would have had no chance against Graf, Seles, Hingis, the Williams sisters, Davenport, Henin. Young Steffi simply toyed with her in 1987-89.

Agree that Graf at her best (1988 and 1989) was better than a way past it Evert. Kind of interesting that Evert was able to give her some trouble in some of their matches.
Even more interesting that the game just magically got better right when you became a fan! It sucked for 100 years and then poof! It got way better, right when you started watching it! What are the odds?!

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Agree that Graf at her best (1988 and 1989) was better than a way past it Evert. Kind of interesting that Evert was able to give her some trouble in some of their matches.
Even more interesting that the game just magically got better right when you became a fan! It sucked for 100 years and then poof! It got way better, right when you started watching it! What are the odds?!

No, I became a fan and started watching women's tennis in the mid/late-80 because women's tennis became a global sport then and so much better!
And yes, Steffi Graf was the "first global superstar" (B.J. King). Plus she and Sabatini were far nicer to look at for a young boy than these Evert, Navratilova, Shriver, Kohde types.

 

[PDJ]

This maybe of interest to some?

 

[pierceforehands]

I included some of this, but I'll now add the year-end rankings for each player Austin beat on clay:

1977 Hilton Head: Dianne Fromholtz #8​

1977 U.S. Open: Sue Barker #5​

1977 U.S. Open: Virginia Ruzici #16 (won the French Open the next year).​

1978 Hilton Head: Rosie Casals ?? #16 in ELO according to Tennis Abstract​

1979 Hilton Head: Evonne Goolagong #4​

1979 Hilton Head: Kerry Reid #9​

1979 Fed Cup: Kerry Reid #9​

1979 Rome: Mima Jausovec #20​

1979 Rome: Virginia Ruzici #13​

1979 Rome: Chris Evert Evert #2​

1979 Rome: Sylvia Hanika #16​

1979 Wightman Cup: Sue Barker #10​

1979 Wightman Cup: Virginia Wade #8​

1980 Orlando: Andrea Jaeger #7​

1980 Fed Cip: Hana Mandlíková #4​

1980 Fed Cup: Olga Morozova n/a (USSR didn't let her play the pro tour due to apartheid, but she took part in Fed Cup)​

1980 Fed Cup: Wendy Turnbull #8​

So, 11/17 of these wins were over top 10 players, 15/17 were over top 16 players, one was over #20 Jausovec, who had just won and made the finals of the French the past two years, and one was over an involuntarily retired Morozova.

That list of wins apart from the glaringly great Evert win which broke Chris's 125 match win streak aren't that great. You could easily come with a Conchita Martinez list of wins that overall is more impressive than that, even if Tracy's single biggest win is more impressive as she beat Chris while Conchita surprisingly failed to score a single win over Graf or Seles on clay. And she never won RG. Or for a better example perhaps Gabriela Sabatini would EASILY have a list of more impressive wins that, including multiple clay wins over Graf and Seles, and she never reached a RG final.

Most of those would be people Tracy would be a surprise to have lost to, even on clay. And some are downright unimpressive. For instance:

1978 Rosie Casals- are you kidding me. Even in her prime Casals was definitely never considered a good clay courter. And she was well past her prime by then.

2 Reid wins- Reid is not that good, prefers grass, and was past her prime by then anyway.

Jausovec and Ruzica 1979- I will definitely count the 77 Ruzica win as a good win since Tracy was only 14. However in 1979 she was contending for #1, it is a huge stretch to call a win over players barely in the top 20, even clay court specialists, as a good win. And lets be real Jausovec and Ruzica while good clay courters were not even considered contenders to win a French in a regular or real French Open, despite to their credit both reached 1 final there each (both being demolished in boring 50 minute finals by Evert) in a more real French Open later.

Hanika- Are we really counting Hanika as a good win for Tracy? I guess at a stretch you could since she reached a RG final, but this is a player who spent only a bit of her career in the bottom of the top 10, rarely even ranking that high, and isn't exactly a clay specialist either.

Wade 79- Yeah an old, way past her prime Wade on clay, just no.

Barker 79- Barker went on massive decline after her 76/77 seasons (probably never getting over that Wimbledon defeat to Stove) and clay is her worst surface, her win at the non real French Open in 76 with nobody there aside. Tracy had already beaten her in 77. Again a stretch to count this at all.

Jaeger- I guess we could count this but this is a 15 year old girl, not even established yet, and who Tracy was always above and always ranked higher then. Had she lost the match it would have been considered a big upset.

Morozova- A way past her prime Morozova again is a massive stretch.

Even if I am generous and count all of Evert (duh), all the Goolagong ones even in years Goolagong was past her actual prime (71-76 clearly), Turnbull, and a couple others, that doesn't leave too much. As I said someone like Sabatini I could easily compile a more impressive list for. Martina Hingis too, and Hingis also never won the French.

 

[buscemi]

That list of wins apart from the glaringly great Evert win which broke Chris's 125 match win streak aren't that great. You could easily come with a Conchita Martinez list of wins that overall is more impressive than that, even if Tracy's single biggest win is more impressive as she beat Chris while Conchita surprisingly failed to score a single win over Graf or Seles on clay. And she never won RG. Or for a better example perhaps Gabriela Sabatini would EASILY have a list of more impressive wins that, including multiple clay wins over Graf and Seles, and she never reached a RG final.

Most of those would be people Tracy would be a surprise to have lost to, even on clay. And some are downright unimpressive. For instance:

1978 Rosie Casals- are you kidding me. Even in her prime Casals was definitely never considered a good clay courter. And she was well past her prime by then.

2 Reid wins- Reid is not that good, prefers grass, and was past her prime by then anyway.

Jausovec and Ruzica 1979- I will definitely count the 77 Ruzica win as a good win since Tracy was only 14. However in 1979 she was contending for #1, it is a huge stretch to call a win over players barely in the top 20, even clay court specialists, as a good win. And lets be real Jausovec and Ruzica while good clay courters were not even considered contenders to win a French in a regular or real French Open, despite to their credit both reached 1 final there each (both being demolished in boring 50 minute finals by Evert) in a more real French Open later.

Hanika- Are we really counting Hanika as a good win for Tracy? I guess at a stretch you could since she reached a RG final, but this is a player who spent only a bit of her career in the bottom of the top 10, rarely even ranking that high, and isn't exactly a clay specialist either.

Wade 79- Yeah an old, way past her prime Wade on clay, just no.

Barker 79- Barker went on massive decline after her 76/77 seasons (probably never getting over that Wimbledon defeat to Stove) and clay is her worst surface, her win at the non real French Open in 76 with nobody there aside. Tracy had already beaten her in 77. Again a stretch to count this at all.

Jaeger- I guess we could count this but this is a 15 year old girl, not even established yet, and who Tracy was always above and always ranked higher then. Had she lost the match it would have been considered a big upset.

Morozova- A way past her prime Morozova again is a massive stretch.

Even if I am generous and count all of Evert (duh), all the Goolagong ones even in years Goolagong was past her actual prime (71-76 clearly), Turnbull, and a couple others, that doesn't leave too much. As I said someone like Sabatini I could easily compile a more impressive list for. Martina Hingis too, and Hingis also never won the French.

Two key additions to what you wrote:

1. You didn't reference Austin's win over Mandlíková, which I regard as her second best win on clay. This was in May 1980, roughly a year before Hana won the French Open. Sticking to 1980, Mandlíková played Evert three times on clay that year, losing in three sets in the Perugia SF, losing in three sets in the French Open SF, and winning, 6-1, 6-4 in the Atlanta SF (Mandlíková then beat Turnbull in the final). I think it's fair to say Hana was the third best clay player from 1980-1986, behind only Evert and Navratilova, and she was in good form generally (year-end #4, U.S. Open final, Australian Open title) and on clay in 1980. That's a big win IMHO.​

​

2. All these wins were from 1977-1980, when Austin was only 14-17 years old. My point here is showing potential. Sure, Martinez could match Austin's wins on clay, but hers mostly came much later.​

 

[Hard Court]

All those wins on clay are pretty impressive when you consider the ones when she was 15 and this was all over a short period of time.
Goolagong was still pretty close to her prime. She ranked #4, was only 27, and won Wimbledon the next year.
Besides all the wins over good but not great players, Goolagong, Mandlikova, and of course Evert were all high-quality wins. She really is only missing Navratilova who she didn't play much on clay.
There is every indication that Austin could play on clay and potentially win the French Open at least once.

 

[Verbal Volley]

So we have established that those early age stats did NOT Negatively impair Graf v Evert anyway! So what was a bad excuse, never needed to be offered in first place because it does not explain the disparity? I guess we are to cooncludes that Whether Graf decided to play with the big girls at 13-15 or not Evertsucceeded in excelling by this artificial and arbitrary metric you created. Maybe you should try subdivided by only the first six months and only using matches played on Tuesdays and Thursdays despite that the rest of the week reflected actual choices to play tennis and get played for it?

By the way, I could do that because Evert never took a dime of prize-money before she turned 18. She played pro events but never accepted a paycheck by the tournaments to keep her amateur status It reflected her and her parents development first mindset, so that the ONLY criteria to consider was what would be good for her long term growth. Matter of fact she refused to enter the 1972 RG because she felt she was not ready! It showed the kind of discipline that Graf did not show, and yet still, whether you add or subtract those years you choose, she managed a better career percentage. She played and beat the women at the workplace, but she never 'clocked-in' She volunteered her time.

She did not need to ***** herself out her prepubescent years to the highest paying Johns on the street (the slams) because she still had not become a 'working girl' at all yet. She gave it all up for free even to the highest bidders until a legal adult. Papa Evert was not the pimp that Papa Graf was.

I think Chris gets to cherry pick out only the wins, and erase the losses, because while she played the pro tournaments, she never reached into the wallet on the nightstand.

Actually Chrissie didn't play Roland Garros in 1972 because she wanted to attend her prom. Tomato-Tomahto, I guess

 

[Verbal Volley]

Everybody knows that.
It is the only reason why both Navratilova and Evert are still included in GOAT discussions.

They both often preferred to make easy money in Kansas City or Chicago instead of traveling to France or even to Australia to play slams there.
Fully understandable.

Don't forget that both played World Team Tennis in 1976, 1977 and 1978, so they couldn't play at Roland Garros.

 

[BTURNER]

I'm not sure why you're saying that "most of them were outside the top ten when Austin beat them." As I noted, 11/17 were in the top 10 when Austin beat them.

With regard to four of the remaining six:

-Ruzici at the 1977 U.S. Open was about 8 months away from winning the French Open in 1978.​

-Ruzici at the 1979 Italian Open was in between her French title a year earlier and a French final the next year.​

-The win over Jaušovec was less than a year after she made the French final on the heels of taking the title the year before.​

-The win over Hanicka was in the 1979 Italian Open final after Sylvia had beaten Tomanova, Fromholtz, and Goolagong.​

That leaves Casals and Morozova, who I agree were past their primes.

You know what. You are 100% right .

I don't know what was in my craw that day except that single reference to Morazova when I had not heard of her past 1976 . the exchange was about my mood, not the quality of your posts which are excellent and well admired by this author. and I should have just learned something. I am a little embarrassed.

LOL I gave myself a three day time out to reflect on my attitude.

 

[BTURNER]

Actually Chrissie didn't play Roland Garros in 1972 because she wanted to attend her prom. Tomato-Tomahto, I guess

I swear in one of the interviews in real time, Chrissie herself says she did not feel ready for primetime RG in 1972. But like every decision we make, there are more than one reason rolling in our heads, and we pick the one that sounds best to say out loud.

 

[BTURNER]

So what?
Serena and Steffi even had cars named after them!

Nissan Serena - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1988 - OPEL CORSA STEFFI SPECIAL | Fabricante OPEL | PlanetCarsZ

Entre o final dos anos 80 e meados dos 90, Steffi Graf era uma das estrelas do tênis feminino. Ao longo de sua carreira, a tenista alemã venceu um...

www.planetcarsz.com

I can appreciate humor in a fan. I like to see the attribute in myself. Here is my rebuttal. https://chrisevert.net/even-the-horse-was-a-champion/
"
There was a Chestnut filly foaled in 1971, owned by a man named Carl Rosen, who made sportswear for the then-young tennis sensation Chris Evert. So high were his hopes for the prospects of breeding a champion from the noble physique of this filly, that he named the horse Chris Evert. Perhaps the horse sensed the great potential her owner saw in her, and simply lived up to the expectations, but no matter the case, she did not let him down.

Trained by Joe Trovato, equestrine Chris Evert became a leading juvenile in 1973, winning 4 of 5 starts, including the Demoiselle Stakes and the Golden Rod Stakes.

And the filly proved she was more than just a flash of light, but a shining star.

Chris Evert went on to be a champion, who most notably won New York’s prestigious filly Triple Crown, “The Triple Tiara”, in 1974

And....
a Chris Evert Hybrid Tea Rose has been named after the legendary tennis player Christine Marie Evert Sooner Plant Farm.

This rose, marketed by Sooner Plant Farm, is a patent-expired hybrid tea rose (Rosa × ‘WEKjuvoo’) that features a multi-colored bloom ranging from yellow, orange, pink, and red, with a fragrance and fast growth habit Sooner Plant Farm. It is described as a landscape-ready plant, suitable for cut flowers, dried arrangements, and as an accent or specimen in gardens.

According to the Chris Evert Museum’s archives, Chrissie Evert herself was involved in the selection of this rose, which is said to have a “cantaloupe-orange that blushes to red” coloration Chris Evert. She expressed delight at having a flower named after her, noting that she felt she was in “great company” with other celebrities who had roses bearing their names, such as Elizabeth Taylor and Audrey Hepburn
https://www.soonerplantfarm.com/plant/rose-hybrid-tea-chris-evert

 

[BTURNER]

As I have said, the reason I can't put Evert higher than #4, is my own preferred objective measures of the quality of her 'peak play'. which I define as the ability to rise and win the most important matches against the best players of her time and access. To get at that, I would look at annual head to head stats against top ranked 5 to 10 players when they actually were top ranked players and condense them into a career stat and compare with other champions (its a lot of work) and final and semifinal slam conversion stats which I do have (I should probably add the season ending championships to this stat!)

Evert is definitely not winning a high enough percentage those matches compared to modern champions Court, Graf, Serena and Martina, let alone the ancient mariners in the sea of tennis history. This is her achilles heel. I can tell you why.

Unfortunately for her, Evert was playing a series of all time great grass-courters, and in fields full of top ten serve/volleyers in an era where either 2 or 3 of the slams each year were played on grass! 27 of her 56 majors ( 48%) were played on somebody's lawn! Here are her losses. ( the losses have her opponent's seeding range )
King x 3 ( #1-3), Goolagong x 4 (# 1-4), Melville-Reid x1( '72 #9) Court x 1 ('73 #1), Wade x 1 ('77 #3), Navratilova x 9 ( #1-2), Jordan ('83 unseeded), Mandlikova x 1 ('86 #3), Graf x 1('89 #1).

Only once in 27 entries, did Evert lose to someone either outside the top ten seeding, or fail to reach the semis ( Jordan was a true upset by any definition). Only once did Evert lose to a player seeded outside the top four, but within the top ten (Melville Reid). Evert still ended up with 141 wins out of 163 matches played on Grasscourt slams. She won 86.5% of these matches, but this dynamic killed her conversion stats!

The fact that her game, her temperament etc were less well suited to that fast court era and the champions she was thrown into, is a reality only young Evert could control. It was up to her to prepare her game to best compete in the conditions and opponents of her time. Those conversion stats suggest she did not, sufficient to win the GOAT sweepstakes. That same game that gains in the consistency dept, translated into lost ground in peak play. No excuses means just that.

 

[buscemi]

You know what. You are 100% right .

I don't know what was in my craw that day except that single reference to Morazova when I had not heard of her past 1976 . the exchange was about my mood, not the quality of your posts which are excellent and well admired by this author. and I should have just learned something. I am a little embarrassed.

LOL I gave myself a three day time out to reflect on my attitude.

No worries. I always enjoy engaging with your posts.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

As I have said, the reason I can't put Evert higher than #4, is my own preferred objective measures of the quality of her 'peak play'. which I define as the ability to rise and win the most important matches against the best players of her time and access. To get at that, I would look at annual head to head stats against top ranked 5 to 10 players when they actually were top ranked players and condense them into a career stat and compare with other champions (its a lot of work) and final and semifinal slam conversion stats which I do have (I should probably add the season ending championships to this stat!)

Evert is definitely not winning a high enough percentage those matches compared to modern champions Court, Graf, Serena and Martina, let alone the ancient mariners in the sea of tennis history. This is her achilles heel. I can tell you why.

Unfortunately for her, Evert was playing a series of all time great grass-courters, ...

But Evert played in an era with no good clay courters.
That explains her extremely good clay court win percentage.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

But Evert played in an era with no good clay courters.
That explains her extremely good clay court win percentage.

I think her clay era was atleast tougher than Court's or Swiatek's today. In Court's day almost all the top players were serve and volleys, even the so called clay specialists likes Jones and Turner were more serve and volley than baseliners. The only exception was Nancy Richey. And don't get me started on the garbage tennis field of today on both the mens and womens side, I think the sport is on the verge of going extinct if this continues. I would agree Graf, Seles, Henin, Serena, Sharapova, HIngis, Sanchez, Navratilova (since she faced Evert herself and peaked in the 80s when the clay field had more depth thant he 70s) had tougher clay competition than Evert however. Still I see someone winning 125 matches on clay in a row, not Graf, not a hypothetical never stabbed Seles, nobody, no matter how terrible the field is. Only Evert had the extreme of extremes day in and day out consistency, mental resilence, and high floor, to ever pull that off, even if yes it also required a pretty weak clay field, it still would not have been achieved by anyone else no matter what IMO.

 

[jrepac]

Interestingly her only loss ever to Hana too.

Does Chris end #1 on the computer if she wins that final? I forget this. Player of Year and ITF #1 (back when it meant something unlike the 2000s when it is meaningless and a joke) for sure if she wins but forget about computer #1 or not.

Yes, if she won the AO final she would have been year end #1

 

[SwissMaestro81]

I think her clay era was atleast tougher than Court's or Swiatek's today. In Court's day almost all the top players were serve and volleys, even the so called clay specialists likes Jones and Turner were more serve and volley than baseliners. The only exception was Nancy Richey. And don't get me started on the garbage tennis field of today on both the mens and womens side, I think the sport is on the verge of going extinct if this continues. I would agree Graf, Seles, Henin, Serena, Sharapova, HIngis, Sanchez, Navratilova (since she faced Evert herself and peaked in the 80s when the clay field had more depth thant he 70s) had tougher clay competition than Evert however. Still I see someone winning 125 matches on clay in a row, not Graf, not a hypothetical never stabbed Seles, nobody, no matter how terrible the field is. Only Evert had the extreme of extremes day in and day out consistency, mental resilence, and high floor, to ever pull that off, even if yes it also required a pretty weak clay field, it still would not have been achieved by anyone else no matter what IMO.

A never stabbed Seles would have gone unbeaten on clay until Henin!

 

[Verbal Volley]

I think her clay era was atleast tougher than Court's or Swiatek's today. In Court's day almost all the top players were serve and volleys, even the so called clay specialists likes Jones and Turner were more serve and volley than baseliners. The only exception was Nancy Richey. And don't get me started on the garbage tennis field of today on both the mens and womens side, I think the sport is on the verge of going extinct if this continues. I would agree Graf, Seles, Henin, Serena, Sharapova, HIngis, Sanchez, Navratilova (since she faced Evert herself and peaked in the 80s when the clay field had more depth thant he 70s) had tougher clay competition than Evert however. Still I see someone winning 125 matches on clay in a row, not Graf, not a hypothetical never stabbed Seles, nobody, no matter how terrible the field is. Only Evert had the extreme of extremes day in and day out consistency, mental resilence, and high floor, to ever pull that off, even if yes it also required a pretty weak clay field, it still would not have been achieved by anyone else no matter what IMO.

I agree. Tennis is much too one dimensional, both on the men's and women's side. Everyone plays the same way: Hit the ball as hard as you can, play long rallies from the baseline, and follow up with a winning drop shot because the opponent is so far behind the baseline hitting their groundstrokes. Tennis is in serious trouble, as I have written for the last few years. As of 2025, 10% of the tennis courts in America have been turned into pickleball courts. And the stands are virtually empty for the first days of a tournament. I remember a couple of years ago, when the women played their YEC in Saudi Arabia. The arena held 5,000 seats, but the attendance for the final was only 500! They even darkened the lights in the stands so that it wouldn't be noticed. PS: Have you heard of Tennise (I think that is what it is called). It is scored differently, has teams, and a timer. I don't understand it yet...I've yet to tune in at the beginning of a broadcast where they, presumably explain the rules and the way the games are scored (and the matches, as well). If you have heard of it, what is your opinion of it?

 

[Hard Court]

But Evert played in an era with no good clay courters.
That explains her extremely good clay court win percentage.

Court, Goolagong, Richey, Navratilova, Austin, Mandlikova etc. were all more than good clay court players. Just someone was before your time doesn't mean they weren't good.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Court, Goolagong, Richey, Navratilova, Austin, Mandlikova etc. were all more than good clay court players. Just someone was before your time doesn't mean they weren't good.

Court and Richey played in an era when 3 of 4 slams were played on grass. They were S&V players, a style not suited to clay.
Navratilova had a far lower match winning percentage on clay than on any other surface. As great as she was no great clay courter.
Austin won 3 of her 30 titles on clay - final wins against Hanika, Marsikova and some Kerry Reid.
Mandlikova won 4 of her 27 titles on clay - two against Hanika and two against some Sabina Simmonds in the finals.

No comparison to the 1990s with Graf, Seles, Sanchez, Martinez, Hingis, Sabatini.

 

[BTURNER]

Court and Richey played in an era when 3 of 4 slams were played on grass. They were S&V players, a style not suited to clay.
Navratilova had a far lower match winning percentage on clay than on any other surface. As great as she was no great clay courter.
Austin won 3 of her 30 titles on clay - final wins against Hanika, Marsikova and some Kerry Reid.
Mandlikova won 4 of her 27 titles on clay - two against Hanika and two against some Sabina Simmonds in the finals.

No comparison to the 1990s with Graf, Seles, Sanchez, Martinez, Hingis, Sabatini.

Evert played in a great grass era, and Graf played in a great clay era. Thus, Evert's clay cred is probably a little overblown and Graf's grass cred is probably a little overblown.

That would be a fair assessment, wouldn't it Swiss?

 

[insideoutforehanders]

I agree. Tennis is much too one dimensional, both on the men's and women's side. Everyone plays the same way: Hit the ball as hard as you can, play long rallies from the baseline, and follow up with a winning drop shot because the opponent is so far behind the baseline hitting their groundstrokes. Tennis is in serious trouble, as I have written for the last few years. As of 2025, 10% of the tennis courts in America have been turned into pickleball courts. And the stands are virtually empty for the first days of a tournament. I remember a couple of years ago, when the women played their YEC in Saudi Arabia. The arena held 5,000 seats, but the attendance for the final was only 500! They even darkened the lights in the stands so that it wouldn't be noticed. PS: Have you heard of Tennise (I think that is what it is called). It is scored differently, has teams, and a timer. I don't understand it yet...I've yet to tune in at the beginning of a broadcast where they, presumably explain the rules and the way the games are scored (and the matches, as well). If you have heard of it, what is your opinion of it?

I think it is a lot different factors but with social media, so many new sports, US (if we are focusing on them, although it is a global thing) not having a big superstar on the mens side in over 2 decades, and the womens side trying up in stars as the Williams aged towards their twilights and retirement, the interest in tennis in the US, and many other places just isnt the same. Sports in general are becoming more about supreme fitness, enhaned training techniques on endurance and strength, so a sport like tennis that always included those things, but also was invested a lot in creativity, point contruction,feel, variety of shot, is one of the most negatively affected by these new trends. The homogenization of all surfaces is bad, plus the enhanced modernized racquets that can do almost all the work for you, as it means all players find a similar playing style that works best for practically all, and on each surface. There is no reason to have much variety, dimensions, or players to have different styles from one another.

 

[buscemi]

Court and Richey played in an era when 3 of 4 slams were played on grass. They were S&V players, a style not suited to clay.

As noted in Richey's entry in the Tennis Abstract 128:

Richey was the perfect foil for Billie Jean and her aggressive serve-and-volley game. King excelled on grass, untroubled by bad bounces because her high-energy style rarely allowed the ball to touch the ground.​

​

Nancy was a clay-courter through-and-through. Dirt was the most common court surface back home in Texas, and she developed the game to match. While she wasn’t particularly fast, she was a grinder of the first order. In 1960, the New York Times pegged the 17-year-old as “a girl who will run after a ball even into the next court.”​

​

She ran, but she rarely ran forward. While her volleys were serviceable, her mobility at net was subpar. (emphases added)​

 

[BTURNER]

As noted in Richey's entry in the Tennis Abstract 128:

Richey was the perfect foil for Billie Jean and her aggressive serve-and-volley game. King excelled on grass, untroubled by bad bounces because her high-energy style rarely allowed the ball to touch the ground.​

​

Nancy was a clay-courter through-and-through. Dirt was the most common court surface back home in Texas, and she developed the game to match. While she wasn’t particularly fast, she was a grinder of the first order. In 1960, the New York Times pegged the 17-year-old as “a girl who will run after a ball even into the next court.”​

​

She ran, but she rarely ran forward. While her volleys were serviceable, her mobility at net was subpar. (emphases added)​

Young Evert called Nancy her 'nemesis'. Chris accrued victories over every name in tennis on clay courts long before she finally got her first victory over Richey. You can't think of anyone in 70's tennis, Chris could not beat on a clay court. She logged 3 victories over Court, 4 victories over King, 4 victories over Goolagong, 4 victories against Durr, 4 victories against Mastoff,
She lost the first 4 times she played Richey on clay before she final beat her in 1973. You tube has some video of (past her prime) Nancy, and she was a baseliner with a game not dissimilar to Steffi Graf's except, alongside a big forcing forehand, she had both slice and top on her backhand.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Evert played in a great grass era, and Graf played in a great clay era. Thus, Evert's clay cred is probably a little overblown and Graf's grass cred is probably a little overblown.

That would be a fair assessment, wouldn't it Swiss?

Graf beat the still peak grass court giant Navratilova in two Wimbledon finals.
Don't see any comparable Evert wins against a peak clay court giant. Richey maybe....?

 

[SwissMaestro81]

As noted in Richey's entry in the Tennis Abstract 128:

Richey was the perfect foil for Billie Jean and her aggressive serve-and-volley game. King excelled on grass, untroubled by bad bounces because her high-energy style rarely allowed the ball to touch the ground.​

​

Nancy was a clay-courter through-and-through. Dirt was the most common court surface back home in Texas, and she developed the game to match. While she wasn’t particularly fast, she was a grinder of the first order. In 1960, the New York Times pegged the 17-year-old as “a girl who will run after a ball even into the next court.”​

​

She ran, but she rarely ran forward. While her volleys were serviceable, her mobility at net was subpar. (emphases added)​

Oh, sorry, I apparently confused Nancy with someone else.
She was that 5 ft 3 in dwarf who won the FO in 1968 against Haydon-Jones, right?

But I still doubt that she was as good as Sabatini, Sanchez, Seles, Martinez, Hingis, Pierce, M.J. Fernandez, Capriati who were Graf's clay opponents in the 90s.

 

[BTURNER]

Graf beat the still peak grass court giant Navratilova in two Wimbledon finals.
Don't see any comparable Evert wins against a peak clay court giant. Richey maybe....?

My post to you actually had nothing to do with Evert or Graf or grass or clay. I wanted to know if you were ready to take the giant leap from Graf's constant and uncompromising advocate in all posts, all threads and all situations, to becoming a poster with a little bit more objectivity.

You are happier to stay in the role you are in. That's okay. I know what I will be getting when I click to read your material

 

[Hard Court]

Court and Richey played in an era when 3 of 4 slams were played on grass. They were S&V players, a style not suited to clay.
Navratilova had a far lower match winning percentage on clay than on any other surface. As great as she was no great clay courter.
Austin won 3 of her 30 titles on clay - final wins against Hanika, Marsikova and some Kerry Reid.
Mandlikova won 4 of her 27 titles on clay - two against Hanika and two against some Sabina Simmonds in the finals.

No comparison to the 1990s with Graf, Seles, Sanchez, Martinez, Hingis, Sabatini.

Not sure where to start with all of these silly comments about tennis before you became a fan. I cold go on and on.

Guess I will just mention some of the more obvious. You should start doing research on the things before commenting.
-You have never seen Tracy Austin play.
-You don't know who Kerry Reid is.
-You don't know who Nancy Richey is.
Yet you have no problem ripping an era that was before your time and know little about.

Start with basic things. Start reading about tennis. Watch some matches on Youtube. Google someone that you don't know anything about. Read comments from people who know something about this.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Young Evert called Nancy her 'nemesis'. Chris accrued victories over every name in tennis on clay courts long before she finally got her first victory over Richey. You can't think of anyone in 70's tennis, Chris could not beat on a clay court. She logged 3 victories over Court, 4 victories over King, 4 victories over Goolagong, 4 victories against Durr, 4 victories against Mastoff,
She lost the first 4 times she played Richey on clay before she final beat her in 1973. You tube has some video of (past her prime) Nancy, and she was a baseliner with a game not dissimilar to Steffi Graf's except, alongside a big forcing forehand, she had both slice and top on her backhand.

An old, way past her prime Richey even nearly destroy Evert's 125 clay win streak in a match sometime around 1977 if I recall. She had a big lead and match points but Evert fought back and eventually Richey quit in the 3rd set with cramps.

It is unfortunate she underperformed at RG. Both Jones and Turner managed multiple RG titles while Richey didn't which is surprising. I read she had some problems with nerves in final matches at Roland Garros. Probably apart from that she was the 2nd best clay courter of that era to only Court.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

My post to you actually had nothing to do with Evert or Graf or grass or clay. I wanted to know if you were ready to take the giant leap from Graf's constant and uncompromising advocate in all posts, all threads and all situations, to becoming a poster with a little bit more objectivity.

You are happier to stay in the role you are in. That's okay. I know what I will be getting when I click to read your material

You really think Graf's grass court era was as bad as Evert's clay court era?
I'd like to know if you are ready to take the giant leap from Evert's constant and uncompromising advocate in all posts, all threads and all situations, to becoming a poster with a little bit more objectivity?