Top 10 female players of all time

[SwissMaestro81]

Not sure where to start with all of these silly comments about tennis before you became a fan. I cold go on and on.

Guess I will just mention some of the more obvious. You should start doing research on the things before commenting.
-You have never seen Tracy Austin play.
-You don't know who Kerry Reid is.
-You don't know who Nancy Richey is.
...

I have watched Austin play on YT videos.

Who Reid and Richey are?
They were tennis players in the 60s and 70s. Cannon fodder for Court, King, Evert.
Reid won a AO title beating Ebbinghaus, Gourlay, Fromholtz (1977).
Richey won the AO in 1967 and the FO in 1968 (amateur era).
And they allegedly were Evert's tough clay competition.

 

[BTURNER]

You really think Graf's grass court era was as bad as Evert's clay court era?
I'd like to know if you are ready to take the giant leap from Evert's constant and uncompromising advocate in all posts, all threads and all situations, to becoming a poster with a little bit more objectivity?

You know better. You have read and 'liked' specific posts of mine that do nothing but herald the career of others over Evert. But you chose your agenda is more important than your intellectual integrity. You have sold your soul for attention.

It's ok to seek attention by trolling. Steffi Graf is as good a substrate as any to nourish and fertilize your persona. I have an idea. To keep things fresh, change your username, come back and troll for someone else like Dorthea Lambert Chambers or Hilda Sperling just to challenge yourself. Think of the fun pissing people off!

Now I will leave you. You will have to look elsewhere for stimulation because you are too predictable and I am not learning anything. Goodbye.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

You know better. You have read and 'liked' specific posts of mine that do nothing but herald the career of others over Evert. But you chose your agenda is more important than your intellectual integrity. You have sold your soul for attention.

It's ok to seek attention by trolling. Steffi Graf is as good a substrate as any to nourish and fertilize your persona. I have an idea. To keep things fresh, change your username, come back and troll for someone else like Dorthea Lambert Chambers or Hilda Sperling just to challenge yourself. Think of the fun pissing people off!

Now I will leave you. You will have to look elsewhere for stimulation because you are too predictable and I am not learning anything. Goodbye.

How mean....

 

[thrust]

I have watched Austin play on YT videos.

Who Reid and Richey are?
They were tennis players in the 60s and 70s. Cannon fodder for Court, King, Evert.
Reid won a AO title beating Ebbinghaus, Gourlay, Fromholtz (1977).
Richey won the AO in 1967 and the FO in 1968 (amateur era).
And they allegedly were Evert's tough clay competition.

Richey did give Evert a tough time on clay, for a while, when Chrissie first came on the tour. She also gave King a hard time during the first half of their careers.

 

[pierceforehands]

Not sure where to start with all of these silly comments about tennis before you became a fan. I cold go on and on.

Guess I will just mention some of the more obvious. You should start doing research on the things before commenting.
-You have never seen Tracy Austin play.
-You don't know who Kerry Reid is.
-You don't know who Nancy Richey is.
Yet you have no problem ripping an era that was before your time and know little about.

Start with basic things. Start reading about tennis. Watch some matches on Youtube. Google someone that you don't know anything about. Read comments from people who know something about this.

Someone so clueless on the Navratilova era they thought Navratilova was 34 throughout 1989 lecturing someone else on their lack of knowledge or knowing nothing of the players of that era. Hilarious.

Swiss Maestro seems to be a fairly new poster but already going through their comments they seem far more knowledgeable on the sport and any era of the sport than you ever could dream to be. Granted that is a very low bar indeed.

Evert is probably the clay GOAT but her era was an extremely weak clay era (something Evert herself admits in her own commentary). This is a well known fact already and not even a discussion point. A 125 match win streak on a surface simply isn't possible for anyone in anything but a weak field to begin with anyway. Graf meanwhile played in the toughest clay era in history, so winning 6 RG titles, even with the obvious aid of the Seles stabbing, was remarkable, and not even on her best surface to boot. Meanwhile Graf definitely didn't play in a super great grass era, but it definitely isn't the worst ever, that would be say the one a clay court specialist like Swiatek could win a Wimbledon final 6-0, 6-0. And Navratilova's was far from great either, hers was almost entirely when Goolagong, King, Court, Wade, Casals and almost everyone of note was past their prime or retired, and before Graf even came on the scene, and keeping mind Austin sucked balls on grass even during her very brief peak; and thus her only competition was Evert and an erratic Mandlikova who regularly underperformed at Wimbledon compared to all other 3 slams. Navratilova just had the benefit of fairly good health to allow her to reach 9 Wimbledons, something Graf would have easily done or gone beyond in a field no weaker than Martina's had it not been for her major virtual career ending knee surgery in 96 at the young age of 27 when already at 7. And I am far from a fan of either Graf or Navratilova, so have no horse in that race, unlike you an obviously very large Navratilova/Evert fanatic as all who have read your postings agree on no matter your denials.

 

[BTURNER]

Someone so clueless on the Navratilova era they thought Navratilova was 34 throughout 1989 lecturing someone else on their lack of knowledge or knowing nothing of the players of that era. Hilarious.

Swiss Maestro seems to be a fairly new poster but already going through their comments they seem far more knowledgeable on the sport and any era of the sport than you ever could dream to be. Granted that is a very low bar indeed.

Evert is probably the clay GOAT but her era was an extremely weak clay era (something Evert herself admits in her own commentary). This is a well known fact already and not even a discussion point. A 125 match win streak on a surface simply isn't possible for anyone in anything but a weak field to begin with anyway. Graf meanwhile played in the toughest clay era in history, so winning 6 RG titles, even with the obvious aid of the Seles stabbing, was remarkable, and not even on her best surface to boot. Meanwhile Graf definitely didn't play in a super great grass era, but it definitely isn't the worst ever, that would be say the one a clay court specialist like Swiatek could win a Wimbledon final 6-0, 6-0. And Navratilova's was far from great either, hers was almost entirely when Goolagong, King, Court, Wade, Casals and almost everyone of note was past their prime or retired, and before Graf even came on the scene, and keeping mind Austin sucked balls on grass even during her very brief peak; and thus her only competition was Evert and an erratic Mandlikova who regularly underperformed at Wimbledon compared to all other 3 slams. Navratilova just had the benefit of fairly good health to allow her to reach 9 Wimbledons, something Graf would have easily done or gone beyond in a field no weaker than Martina's had it not been for her major virtual career ending knee surgery in 96 at the young age of 27 when already at 7. And I am far from a fan of either Graf or Navratilova, so have no horse in that race, unlike you an obviously very large Navratilova/Evert fanatic as all who have read your postings agree on no matter your denials.

I think what people truly don't understand about that Evert/ Navratilova era was the unique problems the 'next generation' (Mandlikova, Shriver, Sukova, Turnbull, Kohde Kilch, Garrison et all) had. I think they were very gifted players but they never developed their best mental games because they simply did not get enough opportunity playing truly big matches. We rarely have had an era with two simultaneous GOAT champions totally smothering the big championship matches. The 80's generation simply never got enough sunlight and their roots never grew deep enough to extract the best nutrients. They could not find a half of a Wimbledon or US Open or Aussie draw without a GOAT player sitting there. By the time they did get sufficient finals in smaller tournaments develop, they were faced with a new challenge

Their junior S/V games were built for fast surfaces with smaller racket faces that were doomed to take a hit as medium speed hard courts and slow clay court tournaments became more pervasive and young baseliners were going to overwhelm them. The warning shots were Austin and Jaeger but the barely prepubescent turned American 'pro' model was flawed, leading to premature physical, emotional and mental burnout issues. The WTA, coaches and tennis parents saw collective reason to slow their rollout timetables on 14 year old Chrissie clones. Europe was going to do a better job on softer clay and these S/Vers were never going to get their hey day on courts and conditions that were going to favor them.

I think they were very talented tennis players with solid games for a kind of tennis who were squeezed out of the normal opportunities and experiences other eras provided, and who's days were numbered at the back end.

 

[pierceforehands]

I think what people truly don't understand about that Evert/ Navratilova era was the unique problems the 'next generation' (Mandlikova, Shriver, Sukova, Turnbull, Kohde Kilch, Garrison et all) had. I think they were very gifted players but they never developed their best mental games because they simply did not get enough opportunity playing truly big matches. We rarely have had an era with two simultaneous GOAT champions totally smothering the big championship matches. The 80's generation simply never got enough sunlight and their roots never grew deep enough to extract the best nutrients. They could not find a half of a Wimbledon or US Open or Aussie draw without a GOAT player sitting there. By the time they did get sufficient finals in smaller tournaments develop, they were faced with a new challenge

Their junior S/V games were built for fast surfaces with smaller racket faces that were doomed to take a hit as medium speed hard courts and slow clay court tournaments became more pervasive and young baseliners were going to overwhelm them. The warning shots were Austin and Jaeger but the barely prepubescent turned American 'pro' model was flawed, leading to premature physical, emotional and mental burnout issues. The WTA, coaches and tennis parents saw collective reason to slow their rollout timetables on 14 year old Chrissie clones. Europe was going to do a better job on softer clay and these S/Vers were never going to get their hey day on courts and conditions that were going to favor them.

I think they were very talented tennis players with solid games for a kind of tennis who were squeezed out of the normal opportunities and experiences other eras provided, and who's days were numbered at the back end.

Yes I do agree on all of that. Navratilova and Evert were so great and so dominant jointly they snuffed out a lot of the belief of the younger generation of players, probably even moreso in the US. Well I wouldn't really include Turnbull in that as she is older than both, I think she was just never going to be good enough, but would apply it to those others you listed atleast as a hypothetical. And getting the experience of playing big matches early on is super important to your mental development to having any chance to become a champion.

And yes that is why I think the grass field back then was stronger than the clay field since players games were built to play on grass, even moreso in the 70s and 60s when the grass field was stronger than the 80s, and when there were many more grass events than even the 60s and 70s; hence why I say Evert who shone greatly in the 70s, much moreso than Martina, had the stronger grass field of those two. I think the strongest field in the 80s was actually on carpet, which makes sense as that was the pre eminent surface probably, with grass slowly being phased downwards, and hard courts just starting to become more prominent. Players like Hanika, Kohde Kilsch, Shriver, Sukova, Austin, Jaeger, some of those who aren't even known for grass which is considered similar to carpet, and the obvious 3 of Navratilova, Evert, Navratilova, all had some exceptional performances on carpet. That makes Martina's feat of 8 (?) I believe YEC on carpet all the more impressive, and in some ways even more impressive than her 9 Wimbledons IMO despite being less prestigious. And then in the 90s when Graf played there were barely any grass tournaments so it makes sense the grass field would be relatively weak, and the strongest fields during Graf's day were on clay and faster hard courts, which makes sense as those were the surfaces that featured on tour most. Players are the product of their surroundings.

 

[BTURNER]

Yes I do agree on all of that. Navratilova and Evert were so great and so dominant jointly they snuffed out a lot of the belief of the younger generation of players, probably even moreso in the US. Well I wouldn't really include Turnbull in that as she is older than both, I think she was just never going to be good enough, but would apply it to those others you listed atleast as a hypothetical. And getting the experience of playing big matches early on is super important to your mental development to having any chance to become a champion.

And yes that is why I think the grass field back then was stronger than the clay field since players games were built to play on grass, even moreso in the 70s and 60s when the grass field was stronger than the 80s, and when there were many more grass events than even the 60s and 70s; hence why I say Evert who shone greatly in the 70s, much moreso than Martina, had the stronger grass field of those two. I think the strongest field in the 80s was actually on carpet, which makes sense as that was the pre eminent surface probably, with grass slowly being phased downwards, and hard courts just starting to become more prominent. Players like Hanika, Kohde Kilsch, Shriver, Sukova, Austin, Jaeger, some of those who aren't even known for grass which is considered similar to carpet, and the obvious 3 of Navratilova, Evert, Navratilova, all had some exceptional performances on carpet. That makes Martina's feat of 8 (?) I believe YEC on carpet all the more impressive, and in some ways even more impressive than her 9 Wimbledons IMO despite being less prestigious. And then in the 90s when Graf played there were barely any grass tournaments so it makes sense the grass field would be relatively weak, and the strongest fields during Graf's day were on clay and faster hard courts, which makes sense as those were the surfaces that featured on tour most. Players are the product of their surroundings.

I agree with you on all this especially those YEC's on carpet. She was even more dominant on carpet than grass and I think on paper, she should have been more vulnerable. She had more challenges with the Shrivers, Sukovas,, Hanikas and Kilches than other players, certainly more than Evert. Martina was streaky with her returns and passes/lobs and she did not like having the net taken from her. I was never all that impressed with her return games against these big serve/volleyers. A lot of her returns sat up and a lot of her passes misfired. She'd take too big a swing with her forehand, and the backhand passes could go in the net, long, high... She made up for more errant passes by running down so many more approaches and volleys than anyone else, and having a stronger arm and wrist that she could keep pressure on. She did a great job of making them have to earn each point with a second or third volley/ lob.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Richey did give Evert a tough time on clay, for a while, when Chrissie first came on the tour. She also gave King a hard time during the first half of their careers.

She gave King a relatively tough time their entire careers. Their head to head is very close despite a dearth of clay meetings where Richey would have been heavily favored. Richey even held her own against King on grass, despite King being the FAR superior grass courter.

 

[BTURNER]

She gave King a relatively tough time their entire careers. Their head to head is very close despite a dearth of clay meetings where Richey would have been heavily favored. Richey even held her own against King on grass, despite King being the FAR superior grass courter.

I have to think about that. Her game does not scream 'trouble' on fast surfaces, especially on aginst King on grass . Was she a lefty?

 

[insideoutforehanders]

I have to think about that. Her game does not scream 'trouble' on fast surfaces, especially on aginst King on grass . Was she a lefty?

She had very powerful groundstrokes, much stronger than King's especialy off the forehand, and since King isn't as powerful, fast, or physically imposing in general as Court she was able to keep her back more often than she could Court where Richey had a clear advantage (obviously not all the time since if King played Richey from only the backcourt Richey would have a lopsided winning head to head, and she still has a losing one, but was able to more often than she could Court who she couldn't keep off the net at all, plus Court is so great from the backcourt she could play with Richey from the back even when stuck back there with Richey, unlike King as well).

 

[buscemi]

She had very powerful groundstrokes, much stronger than King's especialy off the forehand, and since King isn't as powerful, fast, or physically imposing in general as Court she was able to keep her back more often than she could Court where Richey had a clear advantage (obviously not all the time since if King played Richey from only the backcourt Richey would have a lopsided winning head to head, and she still has a losing one, but was able to more often than she could Court who she couldn't keep off the net at all, plus Court is so great from the backcourt she could play with Richey from the back even when stuck back there with Richey, unlike King as well).

Plus, she was indefatigable. Supposedly, her training regime was legendary.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Plus, she was indefatigable. Supposedly, her training regime was legendary.

This too. She trained with the men some apparently which helped in this regard.

As I said before it is too bad nerves got the best of her in late rounds at RG. The players she lost to at RG were "almost" always high quality- Court, Jones, Turner, so it is not like she had hardly any truly bad defeats, but she was definitely capable of atleast 3 RG titles in that era, but won only 1. Also a shame 3 of 4 majors were on grass back then, which hardly helped her (to her credit she still did win, making numerous grass slam finals, and even winning 1) and none on hard courts, which I have a feeling would have been a great surface for her, and maybe even the surface her chances against her ultimate nemisis Court would be best, given what a great clay courter Court herself was, and that Court was clearly superior to her on grass of course.

 

[Hard Court]

Someone so clueless on the Navratilova era they thought Navratilova was 34 throughout 1989 lecturing someone else on their lack of knowledge or knowing nothing of the players of that era. Hilarious.

Swiss Maestro seems to be a fairly new poster but already going through their comments they seem far more knowledgeable on the sport and any era of the sport than you ever could dream to be. Granted that is a very low bar indeed.

Evert is probably the clay GOAT but her era was an extremely weak clay era (something Evert herself admits in her own commentary). This is a well known fact already and not even a discussion point. A 125 match win streak on a surface simply isn't possible for anyone in anything but a weak field to begin with anyway. Graf meanwhile played in the toughest clay era in history, so winning 6 RG titles, even with the obvious aid of the Seles stabbing, was remarkable, and not even on her best surface to boot. Meanwhile Graf definitely didn't play in a super great grass era, but it definitely isn't the worst ever, that would be say the one a clay court specialist like Swiatek could win a Wimbledon final 6-0, 6-0. And Navratilova's was far from great either, hers was almost entirely when Goolagong, King, Court, Wade, Casals and almost everyone of note was past their prime or retired, and before Graf even came on the scene, and keeping mind Austin sucked balls on grass even during her very brief peak; and thus her only competition was Evert and an erratic Mandlikova who regularly underperformed at Wimbledon compared to all other 3 slams. Navratilova just had the benefit of fairly good health to allow her to reach 9 Wimbledons, something Graf would have easily done or gone beyond in a field no weaker than Martina's had it not been for her major virtual career ending knee surgery in 96 at the young age of 27 when already at 7. And I am far from a fan of either Graf or Navratilova, so have no horse in that race, unlike you an obviously very large Navratilova/Evert fanatic as all who have read your postings agree on no matter your denials.

Swiss Maestro said earlier that he had never seen Austin play. I suggested that he see her and others form before his time play. He is now saying that he has seen Austin play. Who knows.
He referred to Ried as an "obscure player" among other things. I pointed out that she wasn't. He keeps saying the game became better when he became a fan and continued to be great for a while. I pointed that is quite the coincidence that he should do some research about players before his time.
Never said anything nasty at all.

I do apologize for not having Navratilova's age right. She was 32 for most of 1989 before turning 33. I said 34. Guess that somehow changes everything.
I was just saying that he was clearly past her best though still a dangerous opponent on a given day.

So because Evert won 125 matches in a row on clay, the era could not have been good and therefore it's not a big deal for Evert? That doesn't make sense.

It's not a "well know fact" that it was weak clay court era when Evert played. It is a matter of opinion. She had to deal with Richey, Court, Goolagong, Austin, Mandlikova, Navratilova etc. Clay was not the best surface for all of them but that doesn't mean they were not very good-great clay court players.

I am not a Navratilova 'fanatic' couldn't stand and always rooted against her.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Yes I do agree on all of that. Navratilova and Evert were so great and so dominant jointly they snuffed out a lot of the belief of the younger generation of players, probably even moreso in the US. ...

But maybe Navratilova and Evert seemed so great because their opponents simply were not very good, meaning didn't have the talent you attribute to them?
Look at how players like Mandlikova, Shriver, Kohde, Sukova - while still being younger than 30 - were pushed aside by the new generation which emerged in the late 80s.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Swiss Maestro said earlier that he had never seen Austin play. I suggested that he see her and others form before his time play. He is now saying that he has seen Austin play. ...

I never saw Austin play during her heyday, just later on YouTube.
And I didn't know that Melville married some Reid dude during the Carter administration. Having said this I think even as Melville she was "obscure" in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Hard Court]

But maybe Navratilova and Evert seemed so great because their opponents simply were not very good, meaning didn't have the talent you attribute to them?
Look at how players like Mandlikova, Shriver, Kohde, Sukova - while still being younger than 30 - were pushed aside by the new generation which emerged in the late 80s.

Shriver, Khode-Kilsch and Sukova were never serious threats to Evert and Navratilova. Everyone knew that they were not going to be on top when Evert and Navratliova got old. There was a sizable gap there. Mandlikova was kind in the middle. At her best, she was close to Evert and Navratilova and was a threat. However, she was inconsistent and lost too often to players she should not have. For whatever reason(s), she was never the same after winning the Australian in 1987.

There was not much depth in the women's game for a few years there. What people constantly don't get is that is not the majority of Evert and Navratlivoas career. So much of their careers is often ignored.
Evert played her first US Open all the way back in 1971! She had to deal with court, King, Goolagong before Navratliova became a factor. Navratilova to a lesser extent, had to deal with them as well. And there were other very good players like Wade, Reid, Richey, etc. who were better than Shriver, Khode-Kilsch and Sukova.
And for three straight years, Austin was right there at the top with Evert and Navratilova.
In a nutshell there was a ton of depth in the women's game in 1970s and early 1980s before a massive dropoff in depth occurred around 1982/1983.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Shriver, Khode-Kilsch and Sukova were never serious threats to Evert and Navratilova. Everyone knew that they were not going to be on top when Evert and Navratliova got old. There was a sizable gap there. Mandlikova was kind in the middle. At her best, she was close to Evert and Navratilova and was a threat. However, she was inconsistent and lost too often to players she should not have. For whatever reason(s), she was never the same after winning the Australian in 1987.

There was not much depth in the women's game for a few years there. What people constantly don't get is that is not the majority of Evert and Navratlivoas career. So much of their careers is often ignored.
Evert played her first US Open all the way back in 1971! She had to deal with court, King, Goolagong before Navratliova became a factor. Navratilova to a lesser extent, had to deal with them as well. And there were other very good players like Wade, Reid, Richey, etc. who were better than Shriver, Khode-Kilsch and Sukova.
And for three straight years, Austin was right there at the top with Evert and Navratilova.
In a nutshell there was a ton of depth in the women's game in 1970s and early 1980s before a massive dropoff in depth occurred around 1982/1983.

Actually that seems true for Chris Evert whose domination in the 70s is somehow overshadowed by her getting dominated post-81 by Martina.

However, Navratilova herself didn't win a lot in the 70s and was only one of several (strong) opponents for Chris then. She won only her 3rd slam at the AO 81 (the final was played on January 2nd, 1982!) when she was already 25 years old.
So after a closer look it can be said that Chris had to win her slams against stronger competition than Martina!

Maybe it is actually wrong that Navratilova is usually rated higher in the GOAT race than Evert. Her problem is a little bit that in the 70s there was almost no TV coverage of women's tennis outside of the USA which changed only in the late 80s and early 90s when Navratilova was still a force and Evert not quite anymore.

 

[thrust]

Actually that seems true for Chris Evert whose domination in the 70s is somehow overshadowed by her getting dominated post-81 by Martina.

However, Navratilova herself didn't win a lot in the 70s and was only one of several (strong) opponents for Chris then. She won only her 3rd slam at the AO 81 (the final was played on January 2nd, 1982!) when she was already 25 years old.
So after a closer look it can be said that Chris had to win her slams against stronger competition than Martina!

Maybe it is actually wrong that Navratilova is usually rated higher in the GOATG

Good points, Martina was a late bloomer when it came to winning consistently, especially at the slams.

 

[MissileBackHand99]

This notion that Chrissie being as dominant as she was on clay was due to a "weak clay era"...is just ASININE. Evert dominated on clay for over a decade, not only winning 7 RG titles and 3 USO titles, but also 5 Italian Opens, multiple German Opens, etc. To chalk that all up as "weak era"....is ASININE. Also, to say that era was weak but then gush over Graf's 90s French Open titles (which were largely a product of the 3-time reigning French Open champ being stabbed)...is such an hypocrisy and double standard (but I expect as much when the topic of Graf is brought up on these boards)

And NO, a 125-match win streak on a single surface isn't a product of a "weak era"....that's one of the most brainless things I've seen on here

 

[SwissMaestro81]

This notion that Chrissie being as dominant as she was on clay was due to a "weak clay era"...is just ASININE. Evert dominated on clay for over a decade, not only winning 7 RG titles and 3 USO titles, but also 5 Italian Opens, multiple German Opens, etc. To chalk that all up as "weak era"....is ASININE. Also, to say that era was weak but then gush over Graf's 90s French Open titles (which were largely a product of the 3-time reigning French Open champ being stabbed)...is such an hypocrisy and double standard (but I expect as much when the topic of Graf is brought up on these boards)

And NO, a 125-match win streak on a single surface isn't a product of a "weak era"....that's one of the most brainless things I've seen on here

Seles didn't play during Evert's era either.....

Do you really think that Evert would have been able to have a 125-win streak on clay in an era with Graf, Sanchez, Seles, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce, Hingis?
Of course Evert played during a weak clay era. Having said that she could only play against the players who were there then.

 

[Hard Court]

Graf, Sanchez, Seles, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce nor Hingis would not have won 125 matches in a row on clay during Evert's era.

 

[thrust]

Seles didn't play during Evert's era either.....

Do you really think that Evert would have been able to have a 125-win streak on clay in an era with Graf, Sanchez, Seles, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce, Hingis?
Of course Evert played during a weak clay era. Having said that she could only play against the players who were there then.

Peak Graf or Seles, definitely, would have given peak Evert hard time and would have defeated Evert during that streak. Still, Evert probably would have had the better H-H against them, overall.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Peak Graf or Seles, definitely, would have given peak Evert hard time and would have defeated Evert during that streak. Still, Evert probably would have had the better H-H against them, overall.

Better against Seles, yes.
But better against Graf, no.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Better against Seles, yes.
But better against Graf, no.

Well I do think Graf would be her tougher match up in general. One big reason I say that is Evert plays very similar style wise to Hingis, who we already know is a tough opponent/match up for Monica.

 

[PDJ]

This notion that Chrissie being as dominant as she was on clay was due to a "weak clay era"...is just ASININE. Evert dominated on clay for over a decade, not only winning 7 RG titles and 3 USO titles, but also 5 Italian Opens, multiple German Opens, etc. To chalk that all up as "weak era"....is ASININE. Also, to say that era was weak but then gush over Graf's 90s French Open titles (which were largely a product of the 3-time reigning French Open champ being stabbed)...is such an hypocrisy and double standard (but I expect as much when the topic of Graf is brought up on these boards)

And NO, a 125-match win streak on a single surface isn't a product of a "weak era"....that's one of the most brainless things I've seen on here

Agree

 

[MissileBackHand99]

Peak Graf or Seles, definitely, would have given peak Evert hard time and would have defeated Evert during that streak. Still, Evert probably would have had the better H-H against them, overall.

Are they playing with wood rackets that Evert played with at her peak....or the graphite ones that Graf and Seles played with?? The equipment definitely matters

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Are they playing with wood rackets that Evert played with at her peak....or the graphite ones that Graf and Seles played with?? The equipment definitely matters

I wonder how two handed off both sides would work under wood? That would be interesting, and not something I ever gave much thought of to before.

 

[thrust]

Are they playing with wood rackets that Evert played with at her peak....or the graphite ones that Graf and Seles played with?? The equipment definitely matters

IF they were playing in the same era at their peak, they would be playing with the equipment of that era. Seles played Graf in 2 French Open finals and won both of them. Therefore, IMO, she would have been just as tough for Evert as Graf. Also, old Evert took Graf to 3 sets in Florida and Hingis played Seles after Monica returned after the stabbing as was out of shape when they played. In their final match though, Seles won

 

[buscemi]

I wonder how two handed off both sides would work under wood? That would be interesting, and not something I ever gave much thought of to before.

It worked well for Gene Mayer.

 

[buscemi]

Better against Seles, yes.
But better against Graf, no.

If we're talking about clay, which was what was referenced regarding Evert's streak, I think that Seles is the tougher opponent. At age 15 and 4 months, Seles beat Evert in the Houston final on clay.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

If we're talking about clay, which was what was referenced regarding Evert's streak, I think that Seles is the tougher opponent. At age 15 and 4 months, Seles beat Evert in the Houston final on clay.

I don't think so.
Even at her clay peak Steffi was better than Monica.

clay 86-88 Steffi: 77-2 win/loss, 14 titles, 13 sets lost
clay 90-92 Monica: 60-3 win/loss, 9 titles, 14 sets lost

 

[buscemi]

I don't think so.
Even at her clay peak Steffi was better than Monica.

clay 86-88 Steffi: 77-2 win/loss, 14 titles, 13 sets lost
clay 90-92 Monica: 60-3 win/loss, 9 titles, 14 sets lost

Pre-peak Seles straight setted Graf in Berlin and at the French Open in 1990 at age 16. On top of that, as noted, 15 year-old Seles beat Evert on clay, which is the specific matchup we're talking about. 15 year-old Graf played Evert on clay three times, going 0-6 in sets.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Pre-peak Seles straight setted Graf in Berlin and at the French Open in 1990 at age 16. On top of that, as noted, 15 year-old Seles beat Evert on clay, which is the specific matchup we're talking about. 15 year-old Graf played Evert on clay three times, going 0-6 in sets.

Seles "straight-setted" Graf in 1990 when Graf would go on to lose her only slam matches ever against Garrison, Sabatini and Novotna.

The numbers don't lie - 1986-88 clay Steffi better than your 1990-92 clay Monica.
Just watching how even peak Seles struggled against a slumping Steffi in the 92 FO final say it all.

 

[thrust]

Seles "straight-setted" Graf in 1990 when Graf would go on to lose her only slam matches ever against Garrison, Sabatini and Novotna.

The numbers don't lie - 1986-88 clay Steffi better than your 1990-92 clay Monica.
Just watching how even peak Seles struggled against a slumping Steffi in the 92 FO final say it all.

Who was Steffi's main competition 86-88. IMO, Seles was a bit better on clay than Graf, or at worst, equal to her. I doubt that any other woman would have defeated Graf in those FO finals, other than Seles or peak Evert and Court.

 

[buscemi]

Seles "straight-setted" Graf in 1990 when Graf would go on to lose her only slam matches ever against Garrison, Sabatini and Novotna.

Again, this discussion is about how Graf and Seles would fare against Evert on clay specifically. Graf was 20-0 on clay in 1990 outside of her two losses to 16 year-old Seles. After losing to ASV at the French Open the prior year, Graf was 2-0 against her on clay in 1990, with two bagels and two breadsticks (and, in fairness, one 7-5 set for ASV).

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Pre-peak Seles straight setted Graf in Berlin and at the French Open in 1990 at age 16. On top of that, as noted, 15 year-old Seles beat Evert on clay, which is the specific matchup we're talking about. 15 year-old Graf played Evert on clay three times, going 0-6 in sets.

LOL no offense but equating 1985 Evert to 1989 Evert on clay is pretty beyond ridiculous.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

If we're talking about clay, which was what was referenced regarding Evert's streak, I think that Seles is the tougher opponent. At age 15 and 4 months, Seles beat Evert in the Houston final on clay.

Evert was herself 34 years old so I don't think one can read anything one way or the other into that. Graf and Seles themselves had been retired from professional tennis for years at that point.

 

[buscemi]

LOL no offense but equating 1985 Evert to 1989 Evert on clay is pretty beyond ridiculous.

Totally fair point. OTOH, Evert's loss to Seles in Houston came shortly after she pushed Graf in a tough three set final in Boca.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Totally fair point. OTOH, Evert's loss to Seles in Houston came shortly after she pushed Graf in a tough three set final in Boca.

Well yes but that same year Chris nearly lost to Golarsi at Wimbledon, then struggled to get 3 games against Graf (which the commentators called by far her best match at that Wimbledon, lol). She also destroyed baby Seles 0 and 2 at the US Open, but then lost to Garrison, who she had beaten something like 2 and 0 at Miami that year. That is the thing about a much older player, they have great days where they might even play like 90% of their prime and then days they play like an old tennis player.

I just don't think it says much in the comparision to Graf playing Evert on clay when baby Graf never got the opportunity to play a 34 year Evert on clay. Seles was also an earlier bloomer (despite that Graf is earlier than most) than Graf and better at 15 in general than Graf, not just on clay. I wouldn't even be surprised if 15 year old Seles was even better than Graf at 15 on grass, lol

 

[buscemi]

Well yes but that same year Chris nearly lost to Golarsi at Wimbledon, then struggled to get 3 games against Graf (which the commentators called by far her best match at that Wimbledon, lol). She also destroyed baby Seles 0 and 2 at the US Open, but then lost to Garrison, who she had beaten something like 2 and 0 at Miami that year. That is the thing about a much older player, they have great days where they might even play like 90% of their prime and then days they play like an old tennis player.

I just don't think it says much in the comparision to Graf playing Evert on clay when baby Graf never got the opportunity to play a 34 year Evert on clay. Seles was also an earlier bloomer (despite that Graf is earlier than most) than Graf and better at 15 in general than Graf, not just on clay. I wouldn't even be surprised if 15 year old Seles was even better than Graf at 15 on grass, lol

Agreed on all fronts. I think Seles's wins over Graf on clay in 1990 are much more significant.

 

[BTURNER]

Well yes but that same year Chris nearly lost to Golarsi at Wimbledon, then struggled to get 3 games against Graf (which the commentators called by far her best match at that Wimbledon, lol). She also destroyed baby Seles 0 and 2 at the US Open, but then lost to Garrison, who she had beaten something like 2 and 0 at Miami that year. That is the thing about a much older player, they have great days where they might even play like 90% of their prime and then days they play like an old tennis player.

I just don't think it says much in the comparision to Graf playing Evert on clay when baby Graf never got the opportunity to play a 34 year Evert on clay. Seles was also an earlier bloomer (despite that Graf is earlier than most) than Graf and better at 15 in general than Graf, not just on clay. I wouldn't even be surprised if 15 year old Seles was even better than Graf at 15 on grass, lol

Its impossible to judge Evert's performance much based on 1989 results, because she really never played enough tournaments to find and measure her new 34 year old baseline. She had about three good tournaments in the spring and some isolated matches otherwise and about 6 early exits.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Its impossible to judge Evert's performance much based on 1989 results, because she really never played enough tournaments to find and measure her new 34 year old baseline. She had about three good tournaments in the spring and some isolated matches otherwise and about 6 early exits.

I forget was she injured some, or did she choose to play a part time schedule in her final year?

 

[PDJ]

I forget was she injured some, or did she choose to play a part time schedule in her final year?

From Google

Health and Physical Status in 1989

General Wear and Tear: Evert noted that dealing with a "sore body" and the intensive need for recovery influenced her decision to wrap up her career rather than any specific acute structural injury.

Ear Infection: In June 1989, she suffered from a sudden ear infection causing dizziness and nausea, which forced her to withdraw from a Wimbledon warm-up tournament in Eastbourne, though she recovered in time for Wimbledon.

Prior Ailments: While she dealt with a notable heel spur during the latter half of 1988, she entered 1989 managing her schedule for a farewell tour rather than rehabbing a fresh physical injury.

 

[PDJ]

I remember the ear infection caused her withdrawal from Eastbourne and it was uncertain whether she would play Wimbledon given her lack of preparation/practice.
It was covered in the Wimbledon documentary about Evert's final Wimbledon. Incidentally said documentary recorded the highest Christmas viewing figures on BBC2 in 1989.
Such was the affection held for Evert by the British public.

 

[BTURNER]

Agreed on all fronts. I think Seles's wins over Graf on clay in 1990 are much more significant.

The clay meeting we all missed was the 1986 RG match. By this point Evert has won 3 clay meetings against baby Graf including a tougher German final in '85 which got Evert talking about how talented this girl was. And Graf has just beat Evert at Hilton '86, Martina at Berlin '85 so she is incredibly confident. We all know the hardest thing to do, is to beat Evert twice in a row, and the last player to do that on clay was Goolagong way back in 1973! Before that we have Richey but the meetings were over a year apart. ( Yes I checked Jaeger, but it does not pan out)

We would know a hell of a lot more about this match-up on clay, if they met there and both were both were near their clay prime for a rematch. Hana of all players takes Graf out, so we never see Evert play Graf on clay after that consequential loss.

I want to slap Hana for that one, and we never even got a good semifinal out of it because Hana was injured.

 

[BTURNER]

I forget was she injured some, or did she choose to play a part time schedule in her final year?

Alittle of both. She reduced her schedule and had a health problem on top. She just kept harping on the effects of age on her training, her motivation and her body all year long.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Who was Steffi's main competition 86-88. IMO, Seles was a bit better on clay than Graf, or at worst, equal to her. I doubt that any other woman would have defeated Graf in those FO finals, other than Seles or peak Evert and Court.

Sabatini would have beaten Steffi in both FO finals.

Steffi's main competition in 1986-88 were Evert, Navratilova, Mandlikova, Sabatini.
You may have heard of them.

 

[SwissMaestro81]

Again, this discussion is about how Graf and Seles would fare against Evert on clay specifically. Graf was 20-0 on clay in 1990 outside of her two losses to 16 year-old Seles. After losing to ASV at the French Open the prior year, Graf was 2-0 against her on clay in 1990, with two bagels and two breadsticks (and, in fairness, one 7-5 set for ASV).

Yes, Graf had indeed been 18-0 on clay until May 16th.
Had lost only one match in the previous 12 months.
Had won 19 of her last 23 clay tournaments since spring 1985 (83 %).

Then something happened.

After that Graf lost 10 matches in the next 12 months (900 % more losses).
Won only 5 of her next 13 clay tournaments until spring 1993 (38 %).

 

[SwissMaestro81]

The clay meeting we all missed was the 1986 RG match. By this point Evert has won 3 clay meetings against baby Graf including a tougher German final in '85 which got Evert talking about how talented this girl was. And Graf has just beat Evert at Hilton '86, Martina at Berlin '85 so she is incredibly confident. We all know the hardest thing to do, is to beat Evert twice in a row, ...

Austin, Navratilova, Graf beg to differ.