Top 10 women players of all time per surface

anointedone

Banned
Who do you consider the 5 greatest womens players of all time per surface. Here would be mine in order:

Grass:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Wills Moody
4. Lenglen
5. Jean King
6. Connolly
7. Venus Williams
8. Court
9. Evert
10. Bueno

Hard courts (counting only post 1977 players as others did not have enough chances to play enough big events on hard courts to judge either way):

1. Graf
2. Evert
3. Navratilova
4. Serena Williams
5. Seles
6. Henin
7. Austin
8. Mandlikova
9. Davenport
10. Venus Williams


Clay:

1. Evert
2. Lenglen
3. Graf
4. Connolly
5. Court
6. Seles
7. Henin
8. Sanchez Vicario
9. Wills Moody
10. Navratilova
 
Grass:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Lenglen
4. Wills Moody
5. Connolly
6. Evert
7. Jean King
8. Court
9. Bueno
10. Venus

Venus can thank her non existant grass court competition for much of her grass court dominance so I dont rank her as highly. The same is true of Graf but she atleast took advantage of it to dominate longer on the surface, and didnt suffer some of the ultra embarassing losses during her reign at Wimbledon as Venus has (eg-losing to Sprem).

Clay:

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Connolly
4. Lenglen
5. Seles
6. Navratilova
7. Henin
8. Court
9. Sanchez Vicario
10. Sabatini

I know my ranking Martina on clay might look partial. While biased I think Martina was an amazing clay courter in her time who was unlucky to be in the era of the greatest clay courter ever- Chris Evert. It was the same consideration to why I ranked Evert higher on grass then the OP. Martina in her prime clobbered Chris once in the French Open final, clobbering the greatest clay courtever ever in her prime in a French Open final. That is phenomenal, just imagine Federer ever doing that to Nadal at the French Open. Almost all her losses to Chris at the French were extremely close. At 30 years old she nearly beat a near prime Steffi in the French Open final too.


Hard courts I will also only rank the last 30 years since you cant really tell the players before that. Last 30 years only:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Serena
5. Seles
6. Henin
7. Venus
8. Hingis
9. Davenport
10. Austin
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Mine would be:

Grass

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Lenglen
4. Graf
5. King
6. Evert
7. Court
8. Connolly
9. Goolagong
10. V. Williams

Clay

1. Evert
2. Lenglen
3. Graf
4. Court
5. Seles
6. Sanchez-Vicario
7. Henin
8. Navratilova
9. Connolly
10. Wills Moody

Hard

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Seles
5. Davenport
6. Austin
7. S. Williams
8. Hingis
9. Henin
10. V. Williams
 

AndrewD

Legend
Mine would be:

Grass

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Lenglen
4. Graf
5. King
6. Evert
7. Court
8. Connolly
9. Goolagong
10. V. Williams

Please, tell me you're joking? Chris Evert, despite playing in one of the weakest eras, won only 6 majors on grass yet you rank her above Margaret Court who won 19 (even for the mental midgets who discount the Aus Open, she still won 8 at the US and Wimbledon). Billie Jean King, patently a distant second to Margaret Court throughout her entire career gets ranked above her by virtue of doing better at ONLY one event but getting her backside kicked by Court everywhere else in the world on grass (not to mention every other surface).

End of the day, there's only Graf, Court and Connolly to choose from. Everyone else is just filler.
 

380pistol

Banned
Who do you consider the 5 greatest womens players of all time per surface. Here would be mine in order:

Grass:

1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Wills Moody
4. Lenglen
5. Jean King
6. Connolly
7. Venus Williams
8. Court
9. Evert
10. Bueno

Hard courts (counting only post 1977 players as others did not have enough chances to play enough big events on hard courts to judge either way):

1. Graf
2. Evert
3. Navratilova
4. Serena Williams
5. Seles
6. Henin
7. Austin
8. Mandlikova
9. Davenport
10. Venus Williams


Clay:

1. Evert
2. Lenglen
3. Graf
4. Connolly
5. Court
6. Seles
7. Henin
8. Sanchez Vicario
9. Wills Moody
10. Navratilova


I'd have Court higher on grass. As was mentioned if you exclude the Aus Open what about Wimbledon and US Open's she won on grass??

I'd have Navratilova over Evert on hard. Just my opinions.
 

grafrules

Banned
Mine would be:

Grass

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Lenglen
4. Graf
5. King
6. Evert
7. Court
8. Connolly
9. Goolagong
10. V. Williams

Clay

1. Evert
2. Lenglen
3. Graf
4. Court
5. Seles
6. Sanchez-Vicario
7. Henin
8. Navratilova
9. Connolly
10. Wills Moody

Hard

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Evert
4. Seles
5. Davenport
6. Austin
7. S. Williams
8. Hingis
9. Henin
10. V. Williams

Davenport and Austin over Serena on hard courts? Interesting. Davenport was an outstanding hard court player, and showed it off most in tier 1 events, but unfortunately greatly underachieved in the slams on hard courts (only winning 2, clearly too low). Austin of course could only claim those 2 U.S Opens before back pains derailed her career at only 18.

Also a bit surprised you would rank Henin below Sanchez Vicario on clay. Sanchez never dominated on clay like Henin has, but then again her competition was alot harder on clay.
 

grafrules

Banned
Please, tell me you're joking? Chris Evert, despite playing in one of the weakest eras, won only 6 majors on grass yet you rank her above Margaret Court who won 19 (even for the mental midgets who discount the Aus Open, she still won 8 at the US and Wimbledon). Billie Jean King, patently a distant second to Margaret Court throughout her entire career gets ranked above her by virtue of doing better at ONLY one event but getting her backside kicked by Court everywhere else in the world on grass (not to mention every other surface).

End of the day, there's only Graf, Court and Connolly to choose from. Everyone else is just filler.

Court won 5 slams at the U.S Open and 3 at Wimbledon at the time those were the two true grass court slams. So she averaged 4 at each. Evert won 3 Wimbledons and 3 Australian Opens (despite only really playing the Australian regularly starting in 1981) so averaged 3 at each. Not much difference at all, and at the biggest grass court event on earth they are tied. Evert was denied many Wimbledon titles, possibly as much as 5, by playing probably the greatest grass court player in history, whom she lost 5 finals too.

Yeah Court did face a much deeper field of good grass court players then Chris, however the hardest competitor Evert faced was an absolute monster on the surface, the most dominant grass courter ever. It is like many guys in the 90s may have faced more depth on clay then Federer, but most would say Federer had it much tougher just because he had to face the immovable wall on clay that is Nadal. Court faced a high number of quality grass courters that were of higher caliber then Evert did I would agree. However none of them were virtually unbeatable like MN in her prime on grass was. Both Evert on grass, and Federer on clay, almost certainly would win more facing a higher # of top notch grass or clay courters in place of the one GOAT on grass or future GOAT on clay.

So all in all I understand CEvertFan's ranking Evert over Court on grass.
 

roysid

Legend
Considering only 70's and beyond
Grass:
1) Navratilova
2) Graf
3) Venus
4) Billie Jean King
5) Evert
6) Serena
7) Novotna
8) Davenport
9) Evonne Gullagong

Clay:
1) Evert
2) Seles
3) Graf
4) Sanchez
5) Henin
6) Navratilova
7) Pierce


Hard
1) Graf
2) Navratilova
3) Seles
4) Evert
5) Serena
6) Hingis
7) Venus
8) Henin
9) Austin
10) Capriati

Seles's ranking is based on how she fared against others in her time (from '89-'92).
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
I miss the indoor surface which plays very differently than a hardcourt.

Clay
1/Evert
2/Graf
3/Seles
4/Henin
5/Sanchez Vicario

Grass
1/Navratilova
2/Graf
3/Novotna
4/Venus Williams
5/Hingis

Hard
1/Graf
2/Venus Williams
3/Serena Williams
4/Seles
5/Davenport

Indoor
1/Steffi
2/Navratilova
3/Sabatini
4/?
5??
 
I miss the indoor surface which plays very differently than a hardcourt.

Clay
1/Evert
2/Graf
3/Seles
4/Henin
5/Sanchez Vicario

Grass
1/Navratilova
2/Graf
3/Novotna
4/Venus Williams
5/Hingis

Hard
1/Graf
2/Venus Williams
3/Serena Williams
4/Seles
5/Davenport

Indoor
1/Steffi
2/Navratilova
3/Sabatini
4/?
5??

I find some aspects of your list amusing. Venus Williams #2 all time on hard courts when she has all of 2 slam titles on hard courts, and in Australia has only one semi and one final for her whole career, and even at the U.S Open hasnt reached a final in 6 years now when she was only 22 years old.

On the other hand Novotna above Venus Williams on grass? The 1 time Wimbledon winner above the 5 time Wimbledon winner. Also Venus with a much higher ranking on hard courts then you give her on grass. It is obvious that Venus is a much better and more dominant grass court player then she is a hard court player.

Hingis #5 on grass, LOL! Hingis wasnt that impressive a grass court player at all, in fact it was definitely her worst surface inspite of the fact she never won the French and by some miracle won Wimbledon in a terrible grass court field in 97. She won one Wimbledon beating a choking and injured Novotna. The 97 Wimbledon had one of the worst grass court fields ever. Novotna all along seemed the only one in her way of winning that years Wimbledon, and the stomach injury took care of that for Hingis, and keep in mind Jana destroyed Hingis in the early going of the final before her stomach injury became aggravated. Apart from that you had a grossly out of shape Seles, who was never a major threat to win Wimbledon anyway, and ended up going out 3rd round to Testud it turned out. Graf was out of that years Wimbledon via injury. Venus was a total newcomer at the time, and not considered a slam threat at all, and she went out in the 2nd round to a little known Polish girl. Davenport grossly out of shape and not considered a real threat yet anywhere but hard courts, and as it turned out she was upset 3rd round by a little known Czech opponent as well. Hingis's semifinal opponent that year was Anna Kournikova, her quarterfinal opponent was Chladkova, the one who took out Davenport.

Following that one Wimbledon title Hingis was then outclassed by 30 year old Novotna next year. She then was crushed in the 1st round two of the next three years by a young Jelena Dokic and Ruano Pascual, and in between was powered out of the tournament by Venus Williams in the quarters. Probably the 2nd weakest grass court player since World War 11 to win Wimbledon, after only Conchita Martinez.
 
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CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Please, tell me you're joking? Chris Evert, despite playing in one of the weakest eras, won only 6 majors on grass yet you rank her above Margaret Court who won 19 (even for the mental midgets who discount the Aus Open, she still won 8 at the US and Wimbledon). Billie Jean King, patently a distant second to Margaret Court throughout her entire career gets ranked above her by virtue of doing better at ONLY one event but getting her backside kicked by Court everywhere else in the world on grass (not to mention every other surface).

End of the day, there's only Graf, Court and Connolly to choose from. Everyone else is just filler.

Evert made 10 finals at Wimbledon (how many other players can claim the same?) and lost 5 of those only to Navratilova. If it hadn't been for Martina being the "immovable wall" like grafrules said then I have no doubt that Evert's Wimbledon haul would be much larger than it is. Evert also won her two AO titles on grass with one of them being over Navratilova and also made at least the finals EVERY time she played the AO but the AO was the forgotten Slam during almost all of Evert's career as well as Court's and oddly enough Court underachieved at Wimbledon. As for Connolly, her career was very short but she was a demon on grass and Lenglen and Wills both possess almost perfect records on grass.



I ranked Davenport where she is on hard courts because that was her very best surface and although she didn't win more hard court Slams, the number of Slams won isn't the only criteria I was going by. This thread was about which player was the best on a given surface and Davenport was a great hard court player. She unfortunately had bad luck/injuries multiple times during the hard court Slams in her career or she would have more as well.

I stand by my rankings.
 

Warriorroger

Hall of Fame
I find some aspects of your list amusing. Venus Williams #2 all time on hard courts when she has all of 2 slam titles on hard courts, and in Australia has only one semi and one final for her whole career, and even at the U.S Open hasnt reached a final in 6 years now when she was only 22 years old.

On the other hand Novotna above Venus Williams on grass? The 1 time Wimbledon winner above the 5 time Wimbledon winner. Also Venus with a much higher ranking on hard courts then you give her on grass. It is obvious that Venus is a much better and more dominant grass court player then she is a hard court player.

Hingis #5 on grass, LOL! Hingis wasnt that impressive a grass court player at all, in fact it was definitely her worst surface inspite of the fact she never won the French and by some miracle won Wimbledon in a terrible grass court field in 97. She won one Wimbledon beating a choking and injured Novotna. The 97 Wimbledon had one of the worst grass court fields ever. Novotna all along seemed the only one in her way of winning that years Wimbledon, and the stomach injury took care of that for Hingis, and keep in mind Jana destroyed Hingis in the early going of the final before her stomach injury became aggravated. Apart from that you had a grossly out of shape Seles, who was never a major threat to win Wimbledon anyway, and ended up going out 3rd round to Testud it turned out. Graf was out of that years Wimbledon via injury. Venus was a total newcomer at the time, and not considered a slam threat at all, and she went out in the 2nd round to a little known Polish girl. Davenport grossly out of shape and not considered a real threat yet anywhere but hard courts, and as it turned out she was upset 3rd round by a little known Czech opponent as well. Hingis's semifinal opponent that year was Anna Kournikova, her quarterfinal opponent was Chladkova, the one who took out Davenport.

Following that one Wimbledon title Hingis was then outclassed by 30 year old Novotna next year. She then was crushed in the 1st round two of the next three years by a young Jelena Dokic and Ruano Pascual, and in between was powered out of the tournament by Venus Williams in the quarters. Probably the 2nd weakest grass court player since World War 11 to win Wimbledon, after only Conchita Martinez.


Thanks for the taking the time to quote, but when did I give you the idea that I am interested in what you have to say. You get so insecure when someone else has players ranked where he/she think they should be ranked and every other discussion. I don't give a ........ if you were to put Bartoli as the best grassplayer and Graf as the worst player. The list I have put ogether is who plays the best on that particular surface, not who has won the most titles. Then you have to put Court as the number one grasscourt player which is ridicilous.
 
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AndrewD

Legend
Court won 5 slams at the U.S Open and 3 at Wimbledon at the time those were the two true grass court slams.

Okay, that statement just shows how little you know about the game's history. No-one in their right mind would ever call the US Open one of the true grass court slams. It was the worst run event and the absolute worst grass courts in the world. Just read anything written by guys like Laver, Hoad, Rosewall, Trabert, Seixas, etc.

In Court's era, from 1960 through to 1973 the Australian Open was one of the two premier grass court events in the world. Why is that? Simply because, from 1950 to 1973 Australia had the best players in the world, male or female. The US Open only begins to rate from 1968 onwards. Why is that? Simply because America could offer more money than anyone else. In the 1970's that money was what made the Aus Open and the French seem insignificant, that and side-shows like WTT. Although there's no doubt that Evert's decision to skip the Aus Open from 75-80 was driven by her unwillingness to face Goolagong on courts and with crowds that suited her. Exactly the same as Billie Jean's fear of playing Margaret Court 'at home'.


Yeah Court did face a much deeper field of good grass court players then Chris, however the hardest competitor Evert faced was an absolute monster on the surface, the most dominant grass courter ever.

You do see the stupidity in that statement, don't you?

Navratilova WASN'T close to being the most dominant grass court player of all time. As I'd pointed out, she won 9 titles on the Wimbledon grass but didn't win one at the US Open and only 3 at the, allegedly weaker, Australian Open. If she was the most dominant grass courter of all time her record would be a bloody sight better than that.

Navratilova got lucky that her best coincided with Evert being the only viable opposition. If she'd had to face King, Jones, Court, Bueno, Casales, Goolagong or any of the other lesser but dangerous players who genuinely knew how to play on grass her record would have been far more realistic.
 

grafrules

Banned
Okay, that statement just shows how little you know about the game's history. No-one in their right mind would ever call the US Open one of the true grass court slams. It was the worst run event and the absolute worst grass courts in the world. Just read anything written by guys like Laver, Hoad, Rosewall, Trabert, Seixas, etc.

In Court's era, from 1960 through to 1973 the Australian Open was one of the two premier grass court events in the world. Why is that? Simply because, from 1950 to 1973 Australia had the best players in the world, male or female. The US Open only begins to rate from 1968 onwards. Why is that? Simply because America could offer more money than anyone else. In the 1970's that money was what made the Aus Open and the French seem insignificant, that and side-shows like WTT. Although there's no doubt that Evert's decision to skip the Aus Open from 75-80 was driven by her unwillingness to face Goolagong on courts and with crowds that suited her. Exactly the same as Billie Jean's fear of playing Margaret Court 'at home'.

Yeah the Australian Open was more prestigious then the U.S Open back then which explains why the fields for the U.S Open were so much better then the Australian Open every year. Everyone showed up for the U.S Open barring an injury. On average 3 of the top 10 would show up for the Australian Open, especialy on the womens side. The only top players who regularly bothered to play Australia were the Australians for whom it was convenient to not have to travel for the then relatively insignificant event.

You do see the stupidity in that statement, don't you?

Navratilova WASN'T close to being the most dominant grass court player of all time. As I'd pointed out, she won 9 titles on the Wimbledon grass but didn't win one at the US Open and only 3 at the, allegedly weaker, Australian Open. If she was the most dominant grass courter of all time her record would be a bloody sight better than that.

Navratilova got lucky that her best coincided with Evert being the only viable opposition. If she'd had to face King, Jones, Court, Bueno, Casales, Goolagong or any of the other lesser but dangerous players who genuinely knew how to play on grass her record would have been far more realistic.

You should see the stupidity in your own first part of reasoning here. The last U.S Open played on grass was in 1974 which was WAY before Martinas prime. To fault her for not winning the U.S Open on grass when its last year on grass was her 2nd year on tour when she was only 17, when she was a player who was an extremely late bloomer, is just proposterous.

You refer to about how amazing those others were, while Martina only had to face Chris according to you. Yet Goolagong in her prime lost the 1976 Wimbledon final to Evert. Defending champion Goolagong also had to fight back from a big defecit to barely beat 17 year old Evert in her Wimbledon debut, in the 1972 Wimbledon semis. Goolagong in her prime from 1971-1976 also produced fewer Wimbledon titles then Evert, the supposed pushover on grass.

Court herself lost 6-1 in the 3rd set to 18 year old Evert playing only her 2nd ever Wimbledon in 1973. That was in the midst of the 5th year Court would win 3 of the 4 slams. Court would then have a tougher time beating Evert in the upcoming U.S Open semi on grass, then Evert had beating Court in the Wimbledon semis. Maybe for prime Martina, Chris was a relative pushover on grass. She apparently wasnt for anyone else however.

If Ann Jones counts as formidable opposition on grass then Mandlikova certainly should as well. Then someone like Rosie Casals isnt much different then a 70s version of Pam Shriever.

Virtually every expert regards Martina the greatest and most dominant grass court of all time. It is amazing this is even in dispute, especialy in favor of a noted Wimbledon underachiever like Margaret Court. If your deeply rooted Australian and Margaret Court crush is so strong that you even think the perennial Wimbledon choker with only 3 Wimbledon titles should rank as the greatest grass court player over 9 time Wimbledon winner Navratilova then continue to live in your little dream world.
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Yeah the Australian Open was more prestigious then the U.S Open back then which explains why the fields for the U.S Open were so much better then the Australian Open every year. Everyone showed up for the U.S Open barring an injury. On average 3 of the top 10 would show up for the Australian Open, especialy on the womens side. The only top players who regularly bothered to play Australia were the Australians for whom it was convenient to not have to travel for the then relatively insignificant event.



You should see the stupidity in your own first part of reasoning here. The last U.S Open played on grass was in 1974 which was WAY before Martinas prime. To fault her for not winning the U.S Open on grass when its last year on grass was her 2nd year on tour when she was only 17, when she was a player who was an extremely late bloomer, is just proposterous.

You refer to about how amazing those others were, while Martina only had to face Chris according to you. Yet Goolagong in her prime lost the 1976 Wimbledon final to Evert. Defending champion Goolagong also had to fight back from a big defecit to barely beat 17 year old Evert in her Wimbledon debut, in the 1972 Wimbledon semis. Goolagong in her prime from 1971-1976 also produced fewer Wimbledon titles then Evert, the supposed pushover on grass.

Court herself lost 6-1 in the 3rd set to 18 year old Evert playing only her 2nd ever Wimbledon in 1973. That was in the midst of the 5th year Court would win 3 of the 4 slams. Court would then have a tougher time beating Evert in the upcoming U.S Open semi on grass, then Evert had beating Court in the Wimbledon semis. Maybe for prime Martina, Chris was a relative pushover on grass. She apparently wasnt for anyone else however.

If Ann Jones counts as formidable opposition on grass then Mandlikova certainly should as well. Then someone like Rosie Casals isnt much different then a 70s version of Pam Shriever.

Virtually every expert regards Martina the greatest and most dominant grass court of all time. It is amazing this is even in dispute, especialy in favor of a noted Wimbledon underachiever like Margaret Court. If your deeply rooted Australian and Margaret Court crush is so strong that you even think the perennial Wimbledon choker with only 3 Wimbledon titles should rank as the greatest grass court player over 9 time Wimbledon winner Navratilova then continue to live in your little dream world.

Well said.
 

thalivest

Banned
Even people who go by the usernames grafrules, Steffi-forever, and CEvertFan are acknowledging Martina the greatest ever on grass. That pretty much says it all. Only someone of blind ignorance could make such a statement as: "Navratilova WASN'T close to being the most dominant grass court player of all time." As for players like Ann Jones, Rosie Casals, and even the insanely talented but mentally frail Goolagong being significant threats to prime Martina on grass, or bigger ones then Chris was:

Laughing_hard.gif
 
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julesb

Banned
These are my top 5 for each surfaces:

grass- 1)Graf, 2)King, 3)Navratilova, 4)Evert, 5)Serena

hard- 1)Hingis, 2)Henin, 3)Graf, 4)Seles, 5)Davenport

clay- 1)Henin, 2)Hingis, 3)Jankovic, 4)Evert, 5)Martinez
 

grafrules

Banned
These are my top 5 for each surfaces:

grass- 1)Graf, 2)King, 3)Navratilova, 4)Evert, 5)Serena

hard- 1)Hingis, 2)Henin, 3)Graf, 4)Seles, 5)Davenport

clay- 1)Henin, 2)Hingis, 3)Jankovic, 4)Evert, 5)Martinez

Wow Hingis and Jankovic who have never won the French Open over Evert on clay. Ummm ok. :confused:
 

kungfusmkim

Professional
These are my top 5 for each surfaces:

grass- 1)Graf, 2)King, 3)Navratilova, 4)Evert, 5)Serena

hard- 1)Hingis, 2)Henin, 3)Graf, 4)Seles, 5)Davenport

clay- 1)Henin, 2)Hingis, 3)Jankovic, 4)Evert, 5)Martinez

What on earth have you been smoking? hingis on hard will get her booty wooped by william sisters... Jankovic? if jankovic is on there for third than should Ana beinfront of her since she kills jelena on clay?
 
What on earth have you been smoking? hingis on hard will get her booty wooped by william sisters

Funny how Venus trails Hingis 7-6 on hard courts. If we exclude meetings before 1999 then Venus only leads Hingis 4-3 on hard courts. Serena only leads Hingis 7-5 on hard courts. If we exclude meetings in 1998 and 2002 then it is 5-3 Serena on hard courts. Martina held her own vs either Williams on a hard court.
 

suwanee4712

Professional
Comparing players from different eras is very tricky especially after you take the obvious choices. So I'll just stick to the top 5 players that I saw between 1970 and 2000:

Grass

1. Martina
2. King
3. Graf
4. Court
5. Evert

Clay

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Court
4. Seles
5. Martina

Hard

1. Graf
2. Martina
3. Evert
4. Seles
5. Mandlikova

Indoor

1. Martina
2. Graf
3. King
4. Seles
5. Goolagong



It's interesting to note that players like Graf and Mandlikova had records where their win % is pretty equal across the board on every surface. Although most would say that grass was Graf's best surface which goes against her baseliner mentality. But the same was true of Hana who was much more conistent on red clay and a hard court surface than she was on grass despite her serve and volley style.
 

grafrules

Banned
It's interesting to note that players like Graf and Mandlikova had records where their win % is pretty equal across the board on every surface. Although most would say that grass was Graf's best surface which goes against her baseliner mentality. But the same was true of Hana who was much more conistent on red clay and a hard court surface than she was on grass despite her serve and volley style.

I think because Graf was very adaptable and balanced across all surfaces what became her best surface was largely dependent on who her competition was. If she played in the era of Navratilova, Court, or King it might well be that grass wasnt her best surface, but clay may have been an even better surface for her (pending perhaps what kind of matchup Evert was for her in general).

She played at a time competition on grass wasnt that strong. The worst surface of Seles and Sanchez Vicario was grass. Novotna and Sabatini were the top players who were probably most comfortable on grass, especialy Novotna, but they were not multi slam winners like Seles and Sanchez, and both were renowned chokers in big matches. So it no surprise she was most dominant on grass. Conversely competition on clay was alot tougher during her time. You had Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce, all very formidable clay court players. Hard courts also had tougher competition with Seles, Sabatini, Pierce, Capriati, old Martina, young Hingis, young Davenport, Novotna, Sanchez Vicario, Mary Joe Fernandez, all formidable on hard courts to varying degrees, none would have that as their "worst" surface as many of them would grass.
 

DMan

Professional
I agree that it is very difficult to rate players across several eras. Especially since competition, depth of fields at the majors changed so dramatically. Also, prior to the 1970s, all the majors were on grass except the French. So it was basically a 2 surface sport. Now only 1 major is on grass. Two are on hard courts, whereas at the start of the Open era no majors were on hard courts.

In any case, here is my list. I base this on actual results, not who was perceived to be better, or should be ranked higher/lower because they had tougher/weaker competition. Plus, I am only counting results from the Open era onward.

Grass
1 - Navratilova (don't see ho many could really argue with this one)
2 - Graf
3 - Court
4 - King
5 - Evert (she had a very good record on grass, but still came up short in major finals against Martina, King, and Goolagong)
5 - Goolagong (on this surface I think they were equal. Each beat the other in a Wimbledon final, and each won a Wimbledon semi; Goolagong beat Evert in an Aussie final and US semi, but Evert had overall more consistent record on grass).
7 - VWilliams
8 - SWilliams
9 - Novotna
10 - Mandlikova

Clay
1 - Evert (don't see how many could argue this one)
2 - Graf (early in her career she excelled on clay; from '87-'89 she lost only 2x on the surface; later in her career it was her 'worst' surface and yet she still won her 6th French title at nearly 30!)
3 - Henin
4 - Sanchez Vicario
5 - Seles
6 - Navratilova (she 'only' won 2 French titles but was better than some thought she was on her worst surface)
7 - Goolagong
8 - Court
9 - Martinez (I rank her this high despite no French because she was terrific on the surface)
10 - Pierce
 

grafrules

Banned
Your list is mostly pretty good but why on earth would Goolagong be over Court on clay?! Goolagong only won 1 French Open to Court's 5, and Goolagong even lost a French Open final to Billie Jean King who was not a top notch clay courter by any stretch of the imagination. Goolagong was pretty good on clay still, but defintiely not anywhere near Court. I wouldnt even have Goolagong in the top 10 on clay in fact.

I also would have Court alot higher than #8 on clay. I would definitely have her over Navratilova, and probably over Henin and Sanchez Vicario too. Seles is the toughest rank on clay for obvious reasons.

I also cant see Martinez over Sabatini on clay. Martinez was also an extremely good clay court player who underachieved at the French, but so was Sabatini, and Sabatini had even more amazing years on clay as far as tier 1 and tier 2 titles and consistent performance than Martinez who had 2 or 3 of them.
 
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DMan

Professional
And as for hard courts, which is perhaps the most democratic of surfaces.

Hard courts
1 - Graf (don't see how many could argue this one. Nine majors on hard courts, more than any player, man or woman)
2 - SWilliams
3 - Navratilova
4 - Seles
5 - Evert
6 - Hingis
7 - Henin
8 - Davenport
9 - VWilliams
10 - Capriati
10 - Clijsters

Hon mention: Austin, Mandlikova, Sukova, Pierce, Sharapova
 

DMan

Professional
Your list is mostly pretty good but why on earth would Goolagong be over Court on clay?! Goolagong only won 1 French Open to Court's 5, and Goolagong even lost a French Open final to Billie Jean King who was not a top notch clay courter by any stretch of the imagination. Goolagong was pretty good on clay still, but defintiely not anywhere near Court. I wouldnt even have Goolagong in the top 10 on clay in fact.

I also would have Court alot higher than #8 on clay. I would definitely have her over Navratilova, and probably over Henin and Sanchez Vicario too. Seles is the toughest rank on clay for obvious reasons.

I also cant see Martinez over Sabatini on clay. Martinez was also an extremely good clay court player who underachieved at the French, but so was Sabatini, and Sabatini had even more amazing years on clay as far as tier 1 and tier 2 titles and consistent performance than Martinez who had 2 or 3 of them.

For the purposes of my list, I only considered Open era results.

Court won the French in 1969, 1970 and 1973. Goolagong won the French in 1971, was runner up in 1972, and also reached the US Open final on clay in 1975 and 1976. She won the Italian Open and also had wins over Evert on clay. Court was an all around great player. On clay I give a slight edge to Goolagong.

Martinez reached a French final, Sabatini did not. Gaby gets Honorable Mention on clay, and I'd rank her #11 overall. Gaby was a 5 time French semifinalist. She won the Italian Open 4 times, but so did Conchita.
 

DMan

Professional
I agree that it is very difficult to rate players across several eras. Especially since competition, depth of fields at the majors changed so dramatically. Also, prior to the 1970s, all the majors were on grass except the French. So it was basically a 2 surface sport. Now only 1 major is on grass. Two are on hard courts, whereas at the start of the Open era no majors were on hard courts.

In any case, here is my list. I base this on actual results, not who was perceived to be better, or should be ranked higher/lower because they had tougher/weaker competition. Plus, I am only counting results from the Open era onward.

Grass
1 - Navratilova (don't see ho many could really argue with this one)
2 - Graf
3 - Court
4 - King
5 - Evert (she had a very good record on grass, but still came up short in major finals against Martina, King, and Goolagong)
5 - Goolagong (on this surface I think they were equal. Each beat the other in a Wimbledon final, and each won a Wimbledon semi; Goolagong beat Evert in an Aussie final and US semi, but Evert had overall more consistent record on grass).
7 - VWilliams
8 - SWilliams
9 - Novotna
10 - Mandlikova

Clay
1 - Evert (don't see how many could argue this one)
2 - Graf (early in her career she excelled on clay; from '87-'89 she lost only 2x on the surface; later in her career it was her 'worst' surface and yet she still won her 6th French title at nearly 30!)
3 - Henin
4 - Sanchez Vicario
5 - Seles
6 - Navratilova (she 'only' won 2 French titles but was better than some thought she was on her worst surface)
7 - Goolagong
8 - Court
9 - Martinez (I rank her this high despite no French because she was terrific on the surface)
10 - Pierce

Honorable Mention
Grass
Virginia Wade (actually think I should re-consider her in a tie at #10 with Hana), Mauresmo, Sharapova, Davenport, Henin

Clay
Sabatini, Capriati, Clijsters, Mandlikova,
 

DMan

Professional
And forgot to include on the Hard court Honorable Mention List:

Sanchez-Vicario, Sabatini, Mauresmo, MJ Fernandez, Dementieva

Indoor
1 - Navratilova
2 - Graf
3 - Evert
4 - Goolagong
5 - Seles
6 - King
7 - Hingis
8 - Davenport
9 - Austin
10 - Henin, Sabatini, SWilliams, Novotna
 

BTURNER

Legend
Clay 1. Evert 2. Graf 3 Wills, 4. Henin 5. Court 6. Seles 7 Connolly 8. Lenglen 9 Navratilova 10 Sanchez

Grass 1. Navratilova 2. Graf 3. Court 4. King 5. Evert 6. Connolly
7. Chambers 8 Goolagong 9 Mallory 10 V Williams

Hard 1. Graf 2. S Williams 3. Seles 4. Navratilova 5. Hingus, 6. Evert 7. V Williams 8 Capriati 9 Henin 10 Davenport

Notes: I. I disagree with the notion discounting all 11 of Court's Australian as 'noncompetitive" for the purposes of the grass lists. Some of them French Opens were mighty slim pickens in the 70's/ 80's with Evert beating the likes of Morazova, Turnbull and Ruzici, and Jausevic for her clay court eminence. A slam is a slam, and Court beat allcomers to take those titles. She deserves credit for it. Its interesting that everyone forget how incredibly dominant Chambers was before Lenglen and for how long on those grass courts.
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Let's see:

Evert: 7 French Open titles
Jankovic: 0 FO titles

Very funny. You're a good comedian.

Don't you mean:

Evert - 7 French Open titles - the record - also a record 6 year 125 match clay court win streak

Henin - 4 French Open titles (still not in the top 5 on clay IMO)

Hingis - 0 French Opens

Jankovic - 0 French Opens

Martinez - 0 French Open titles



Amusing to say the least...
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Clay 1. Evert 2. Graf 3 Wills, 4. Henin 5. Court 6. Seles 7 Connolly 8. Lenglen 9 Navratilova 10 Sanchez

Grass 1. Navratilova 2. Graf 3. Court 4. King 5. Evert 6. Connolly
7. Chambers 8 Goolagong 9 Mallory 10 V Williams

Hard 1. Graf 2. S Williams 3. Seles 4. Navratilova 5. Hingus, 6. Evert 7. V Williams 8 Capriati 9 Henin 10 Davenport

Notes: I. I disagree with the notion discounting all 11 of Court's Australian as 'noncompetitive" for the purposes of the grass lists. Some of them French Opens were mighty slim pickens in the 70's/ 80's with Evert beating the likes of Morazova, Turnbull and Ruzici, and Jausevic for her clay court eminence. A slam is a slam, and Court beat allcomers to take those titles. She deserves credit for it. Its interesting that everyone forget how incredibly dominant Chambers was before Lenglen and for how long on those grass courts.



That's true about Chambers but she also never played outside England so her "dominance" is questionable in that regard. Her dominance of Wimbledon specifically isn't disputed.

I'd have to disagree with you on Court's 11 AO titles. out of the 11 she only really faced a quality opponent in the final 4 times and even got a walkover one year (a free final if you will) because of Nancy Richey's withdrawal in '66. Yes they do count, but even tennis experts like Steve Flink think her numbers are inflated by all those AO titles and I'd have to agree with them.

Even so I still put Court in the very top group of women along with Navratilova, Evert and Graf but I wouldn't put her at the top of that group.
 

grafrules

Banned
That's true about Chambers but she also never played outside England so her "dominance" is questionable in that regard. Her dominance of Wimbledon specifically isn't disputed.

I'd have to disagree with you on Court's 11 AO titles. out of the 11 she only really faced a quality opponent in the final 4 times and even got a walkover one year (a free final if you will) because of Nancy Richey's withdrawal in '66. Yes they do count, but even tennis experts like Steve Flink think her numbers are inflated by all those AO titles and I'd have to agree with them.

Even so I still put Court in the very top group of women along with Navratilova, Evert and Graf but I wouldn't put her at the top of that group.

The ironic thing is if Richey had played that final she would have been the 5th hardest opponents (after King once, Bueno once, Goolagong twice) that Court faced in all 11 of her finals. Richey I would count as a quality opponent too if they had played, although she is much greater on clay than grass. Everyone below that: Melville, Turner, Lehane 4 times, I would say no. If it were on clay I would count Turner a quality opponent, but not really on grass.
 

grafrules

Banned
Henin - 4 French Open titles (still not in the top 5 on clay IMO)

I am not sure if Henin would be in my top 5 on clay or not. Definitely below Evert, Graf, and Lenglen. Probably below Court as well. Not sure how I compare her to Wills, Sanchez, and Seles. Wills Moody and Henin both have 1 more French Open title than Sanchez Vicario and Seles but much easier competition to get it.
 

grafrules

Banned
For the purposes of my list, I only considered Open era results.

Court won the French in 1969, 1970 and 1973. Goolagong won the French in 1971, was runner up in 1972, and also reached the US Open final on clay in 1975 and 1976. She won the Italian Open and also had wins over Evert on clay. Court was an all around great player. On clay I give a slight edge to Goolagong.

Martinez reached a French final, Sabatini did not. Gaby gets Honorable Mention on clay, and I'd rank her #11 overall. Gaby was a 5 time French semifinalist. She won the Italian Open 4 times, but so did Conchita.

Goolagong should not be above Court on clay on any list, even Open era exclusive. Goolagong has achieved nothing on clay that would negate 1 French Open title vs 3 for Court in the Open era alone even, especialy when only the latter part of Court's career was in the Open era and all of Goolagong's was and she still tripled her in French Open titles. The Italian Open, 2 runner ups at the U.S Open on green clay, and another runner up at the French is not enough to negate or override 2 additional French Open titles. Court was already 33 years old when the U.S Open switched to green clay for 3 years as well. As I said losing a French Open final to King which Goolagong did handily in 1972 is pretty bad for any top notch clay courter anyway, and 1972 was a sabatical year for Court otherwise she probably destroys both of them at the French Open that year as well.

I wasnt aware Goolagong had beaten Evert on clay. Court has beaten Evert in a French Open final though, and an amazing one to boot. Goolagong couldnt ever even beat Evert on the green clay of a U.S Open final.

Sabatini beat Seles in straight sets to win her last 2 Italian Opens. She has multiple wins over Graf and Seles on clay. Martinez never beat Graf or Seles on clay, and did not beat anywhere near the same quality of opponents to win her Italian Opens. Also while they have the same # of Italian Opens I am pretty sure Sabatini has many more titles at the Florida tier 1 and tier 2 clay court events than Sabatini. Martinez was lucky to play a past her prime Sanchez Vicario to make her lone French Open final since she could ever beat Graf or Seles do it, and Sabatini always ran into Graf or Seles each time she was in the semis and usually played them alot closer than Martinez did.
 
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BTURNER

Legend
That's true about Chambers but she also never played outside England so her "dominance" is questionable in that regard. Her dominance of Wimbledon specifically isn't disputed.

I'd have to disagree with you on Court's 11 AO titles. out of the 11 she only really faced a quality opponent in the final 4 times and even got a walkover one year (a free final if you will) because of Nancy Richey's withdrawal in '66. Yes they do count, but even tennis experts like Steve Flink think her numbers are inflated by all those AO titles and I'd have to agree with them.

Even so I still put Court in the very top group of women along with Navratilova, Evert and Graf but I wouldn't put her at the top of that group.

If you look at out lists we are not far off each other. Just this Court/Evert grass court question. I could see your point , if Court wasn't the only one we were asking this question about. How many of Evert's French opens do we dismiss for lack of 'high caliber opponent?' Haven't we inflated her record? Take another look at that list of finalists she beat. Neither Rucizi nor Jausevec were in the top ten and Turnbull was a grass courter! When we get done, does that leave Graf better on clay even after we throw out 1988? We're not doing this to anyone but Court.
 
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CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
If you look at out lists we are not far off each other. Just this Court/Evert grass court question. I could see your point , if Court wasn't the only one we were asking this question about. How many of Evert's French opens do we dismiss for lack of 'high caliber opponent?' Haven't we inflated her record? Take another look at that list of finalists she beat. Neither Rucizi nor Jausevec were in the top ten and Turnbull was a grass courter! When we get done, does that leave Graf better on clay even after we throw out 1988? We're not doing this to anyone but Court.

I think we're doing this more to Court than anyone else because of the weak fields the AO had during most of the years that Court won her 11 AO titles. Like it's been stated before if two top 10 players showed up it was a good year at the AO. But overall I see your point.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Don't you mean:

Evert - 7 French Open titles - the record - also a record 6 year 125 match clay court win streak
Henin - 4 French Open titles (still not in the top 5 on clay IMO)
Hingis - 0 French Opens
Jankovic - 0 French Opens
Martinez - 0 French Open titles

Amusing to say the least...
More than amusing, even funnier--hilarious!!
 

DMan

Professional
Goolagong should not be above Court on clay on any list, even Open era exclusive. Goolagong has achieved nothing on clay that would negate 1 French Open title vs 3 for Court in the Open era alone even, especialy when only the latter part of Court's career was in the Open era and all of Goolagong's was and she still tripled her in French Open titles. The Italian Open, 2 runner ups at the U.S Open on green clay, and another runner up at the French is not enough to negate or override 2 additional French Open titles. Court was already 33 years old when the U.S Open switched to green clay for 3 years as well. As I said losing a French Open final to King which Goolagong did handily in 1972 is pretty bad for any top notch clay courter anyway, and 1972 was a sabatical year for Court otherwise she probably destroys both of them at the French Open that year as well.

I wasnt aware Goolagong had beaten Evert on clay. Court has beaten Evert in a French Open final though, and an amazing one to boot. Goolagong couldnt ever even beat Evert on the green clay of a U.S Open final.

Sabatini beat Seles in straight sets to win her last 2 Italian Opens. She has multiple wins over Graf and Seles on clay. Martinez never beat Graf or Seles on clay, and did not beat anywhere near the same quality of opponents to win her Italian Opens. Also while they have the same # of Italian Opens I am pretty sure Sabatini has many more titles at the Florida tier 1 and tier 2 clay court events than Sabatini. Martinez was lucky to play a past her prime Sanchez Vicario to make her lone French Open final since she could ever beat Graf or Seles do it, and Sabatini always ran into Graf or Seles each time she was in the semis and usually played them alot closer than Martinez did.

Goolagong beat Evert to win the Italian Open in 1973, and also was the last player to beat Chris before Evert went on her 125 match winning streak on clay. I bet if you asked Chris who she would rather play on clay, Court or Goolagong, she'd pick Court. Remember 15 year old Evert beat #1 Court in 1970 on clay, shortly after Margaret won the Grad Slam.
Regardless, Court and Goolagong would rank very close on clay when counting Open era results.

Martinez won 24 career clay titles to Gaby's 16. Conchita also won the German Open, Hilton Head. Like Court and Goolagong, Gaby and Conchi are very close on clay.
 

thalivest

Banned
I bet if you asked Chris who she would rather play on clay, Court or Goolagong, she'd pick Court.

Yeah because when Evert and Goolagong were at the peak of their rivalry Court was 33-35 years old and coming out a final retirement to play a final few years. If Court were younger this would never be the case. Nobody in their right mind would rather play a prime Court than Goolagong on any surface.
 

DMan

Professional
Yeah because when Evert and Goolagong were at the peak of their rivalry Court was 33-35 years old and coming out a final retirement to play a final few years. If Court were younger this would never be the case. Nobody in their right mind would rather play a prime Court than Goolagong on any surface.

You could never get a 'prime' Chris versus a 'prime' Margaret, so the argument is futile.

What you could do is ask Chris if she would rather play Margaret or Evonne on clay. No matter the year or circumstance, Chris would rather play Margaret. She hardly ever lost to her. Evonne was a different story.
 
We now have someone who actually rates Goolagong over Court on clay. Now I have heard it all. Although earlier in the thread someone rated Jankovic over Evert, so I guess compared to that it is tame even as ridiculous as it is.
 
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BTURNER

Legend
Evert vs Court on c clay is 1-1 if you count that 1970 event at St Petersburg or an aging Court has a winning record over Evert if you don't recognize it as a tour caliber match.

As for Goolagoong vs Evert: out of fourteen matches, two is not that impressive, particularly when you note that in the last 20 sets they played. Evonne won 2

1973 SARASOTA CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 6-3 6-2
1973 MIAMI CLASSIC CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 3-6 6-3 6-2
1973 ST PETERSBURG CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 6-2 0-6 6-4
1973 ITALIAN OPEN CLAY (O) F E. GOOLAGONG CAWLEY 7-6 6-0
1973 CINCINNATI CLAY (O) F E. GOOLAGONG CAWLEY 6-2 7-5
1974 SARASOTA CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 6-4 6-0
1974 HILTON HEAD CLAY (O) Q C. EVERT 6-2 6-3
1974 SEA PINES CLAY (O) S C. EVERT 6-2 6-1
1975 US OPEN CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 5-7 6-4 6-2
1975 SEA PINES CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 6-1 6-1
1976 US OPEN CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 6-3 6-0
1979 INDIANAPOLIS CLAY (O) F C. EVERT 6-4 6-3
1982 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) S C. EVERT 5-7 6-1 6-4
1983 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) R32 C. EVERT 6-2 6-2

IMO, a younger Court would have beaten Goolagong on clay 2/3 of the time.

By the way. Evert vs Navratilova on Clay is 10-3, the most lopsided on any surface in the rivalry. But in their last 20 sets played on clay, Navratilova won 9! Navratilova never won a 3-setter on clay
 
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thalivest

Banned
You could never get a 'prime' Chris versus a 'prime' Margaret, so the argument is futile.

What you could do is ask Chris if she would rather play Margaret or Evonne on clay. No matter the year or circumstance, Chris would rather play Margaret. She hardly ever lost to her. Evonne was a different story.

1973 is probably the year you would Chris and Margaret were both closest to their primes mutually, similar to 1987 with Graf and Navratilova, and their one meeting on clay which was the granddaddy of them all- the French Open final, Court came out victorious in an extraodinary match. Goolagong never beat Evert on clay after 1973 either, and she was truly in her prime that year unlike the almost 31 year old Court.

Of course Chris hardly ever lost to Court on clay. They only played on clay TWICE. Yeah so Court lost to a 15 year old Evert in a small tournament, but she came back to beat 18 year old Chris a month short of her 31st birthday to win the French Open final. It is far more embarassing to be spanked by Billie Jean King in a French Open final than to lose to a 15 year old Evert in two tiebreaks on clay.

With Evonne it is a different story? So beating someone 2 out of 14 times on a surface is more impressive than 1 time out of 2. Court in her limited time at a competitive age was still able to beat Evert in a French Open final, while Evonne as grafrules said couldnt even beat Evert on the green clay of a U.S Open final to win a truly big match on clay vs her. French Open final > Italian Open final.

It doesnt even really matter how both did vs Evert anyway though as Court's records on clay so seriously trump Goolagong's in the first place. It just seems that was your own main basis for trying to argue Goolagong against Court on clay, and even there it falls short of any realism.

I would love someone to ask Evert who should would rather play on clay between Court and Goolagong. I would bet money she would say Goolagong, although she would probably give some fluff nonsense as her reponse just to be polite rather then come straight out and say she is the easier opponent, something like "we are close to the same age, and we have played often and we like playing each other, and I really enjoy our rivalry, blah blah blah".
 
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BTURNER

Legend
I agree with most of this, as long as we dont take it too far. That Court victory was Evert's first slam final. Evert said a few things suggesting she had taken Court too lightly as a clay opponent and was surprised by the quality of resistance. No doubt in my mind Court would have had the same problem everyone else did trying beat a prime Evert. Court had a far better clay court record than any other s/v of that era or baseliner, for that matter, prior to Evert. You don't get five FO unless you know what you are doing and have the arsenol and mind to get the job done.
 
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thalivest

Banned
I agree with most of this, as long as we dont take it too far. That Court victory was Evert's first slam final. Evert said a few things suggesting she had taken Court too lightly as a clay opponent and was surprised by the quality of resistance. No doubt in my mind Court would have had the same problem everyone else did trying beat a prime Evert.

Valid points. By the same token though Goolagong never beat Evert after 1973 on clay either, as your tally showed it was a 9 match losing streak with few competitive matches on clay between them from there. I am certainly not implying I think Court would have the overall edge vs prime Evert on clay, but of course as you showed Goolagong barely had a sniff vs Evert from 1974-onwards on clay so that would gain Goolagong no favor by comparision which was my main point.

I also find it interesting Evert is potrayed as disadvantaged playing Court in slam finals or semis in 1973, while Graf is potrayed as if she were advantaged by some playing Navratilova in slam finals in 1987. Yet Graf was half a year younger than Evert in those respective years, while Court was half a year older in 1973 than Navratilova in 1987. Court isnt a late bloomer to nearly the same degree Navratilova is either, while Graf is no more of a teen phenom than Evert. If Evert were truly the one disadvantaged playing Court in 1973, I would have to think Graf was the one even more strongly disadvantaged playing Navratilova in big matches in 1987 which is different to how some have potrayed it when talking up Navratilova's success vs Graf in 1987 slam finals.
 
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