Top 5 classic racquets of all time

Ciaron

Semi-Pro
Thought it would be cool to list your personal all time top classic racquets .. Keep it to the top 5
Mine in no particular order
1. Dunlop Max 200G
2. Puma Boris Becker Winner
3. Wilson PS 6.0 85 St V
4. Adidas GTX Pro T
5. Donnay Borg Pro

Notable exceptions from my collection
Dunlop Maxply Fort
Wilson T 2000
Yamaha Secret 04
Kneissl White Star Mid
Rossignol F200
Head Prestige Tour 600
Dunlop Maxply McEnroe
 
Think that the list of top composite racquets will be:
Wilson PS 6.0 85
Dunlop Max 200G
Kneissl White Star Mid
Head Prestige Pro
Prince Original Graphite
 
Only five?!?!

Okay, mine are:
Kneissl White Star Pro Masters / Masters 10
Head Elite Pro (1988 version)
Fischer Vacuum Elliptic
Fischer Vacuum Pro Mid Size (90)
Dunlop Max 200g
 
I think it's better to divide all the racquets to groups:
1.Wood.
2.Metall.
3.Composite.

Atleast separate graphites and woods:

Head Prestige Classic PC600
Dunlop Max 200G
Kneissl White Star Mid
Prince Original Graphite POG
Wilson PS85 & Classic

Wilson Kramer PS & Advantage
Dunlop Maxply Fort & Mac
Bancroft Borg Personal
Slazenger Challenge #1
Donnay Borg Pro & Allwood
 
Top 5 in my opinion for composite racquets
Head Prestige Pro/Classic the original Prestige
Wilson Pro Staff Midsize
Prince Graphite
Kneissl White Star Pro Master
Dunlop Max200G

Top 5 wood racquets of all time
Dunlop Maxply Fort
Wilson Jack Kramer Pro Staff
Slazenger Challenge No 1
Wilson Jack Kramer Autograph
Donnay Allwood
 
Also, we all know what meaning "classic racquet" is corresponding to playing feelings. But also will be interesting to connect it with the "most popular" or "most widely use" racquet (i mean on pro tour, 'cause it's very hard to calculate other racquets use, though we can clearly understand the situation in general). Actually i think these two groups (pros & the rest users) will be almost the same, As well as the "most popular" will be almost the same as "classic'. Think of it when i've read the list of retrowagen (especially about Head Elite Pro 1988 Edition). I think this racquet is the most visible exception from the rule "classic = popular", i think probably because it was in production just one year.
 
Atleast separate graphites and woods:

Head Prestige Classic PC600
Dunlop Max 200G
Kneissl White Star Mid
Prince Original Graphite POG
Wilson PS85 & Classic

Wilson Kramer PS & Advantage
Dunlop Maxply Fort & Mac
Bancroft Borg Personal
Slazenger Challenge #1
Donnay Borg Pro & Allwood
Hi Joe what are the differences between the Borg Pro and Allwood? My Pro feels heavier and probably stiffer but I don't know about construction ?
And then comparing the Donnays to the Bancroft (Borg used the Bancroft outside of Europe I believe - probably some sponsorship deal ?)
 
He had to use Bancroft (instead of Donnay) in N.America and Japan. The same story was with Diadora and Tretorn shoes - outside of Sweden and in Sweden.
Concerning Bancrof - i think it was just a paintjob of his Donnay Allwood.
 
interesting to see the votes for Kneissl here - I guess because of the Adidas heritage.
Personally I'd swap it out for the Yonex R22. Everything else I agree with - Prestige, Pro Staff 6.0 85, Prince Graphite, Max 200G...
 
Copy and pasted from borgcash with one edit:

Wilson PS 6.0 85
Dunlop Max 200G
Estusa power beam pro
Head Prestige Pro
Prince Original Graphite
 
Hi Joe what are the differences between the Borg Pro and Allwood? My Pro feels heavier and probably stiffer but I don't know about construction ?
And then comparing the Donnays to the Bancroft (Borg used the Bancroft outside of Europe I believe - probably some sponsorship deal ?)

Initially they were very different but after 1977 Donnay started beefing up his Allwood frames and they matched more or less the Bancroft production. But they were two different productions until he switched to the Doanny Borg Pro which was a completely different and customized layup for him.
 
Graphite:

1. Wilson PS 85
2. Head Prestige Pro (orig 1986)
3. Prince Graphite

*Distant 4 and 5 ( and pretty soon the Pure Drive and Aero Pro Drive will move up to slots 4,5)
4. Dunlop 200G
5. Rossingnol F200


Woodies:

1. Dunlop Maxply Fort
2. Wilson Kramer Auto
3. Slazenger Pro 1
4. Donnay Allwood
5. Wilson Don Budge (was relabeled Stan Smith in the 70s)
 
In no particular order, graphite/composite era only:

Kneissl White Star/Adidas GTX
Dunlop Max 200G
Wilson PS 6.0 85
Head Prestige Tour 600
Prince Original Graphite
 
^^^i should have just said the BB mold in general. I feel the estusa is better known than the puma and more consistently the same racket. The differences among the Pumas (super and winner) were greater than the differences between the estusas. There is an estusa PB, PB pro, PB pro van tech,...Then there is the world champion version by head. It can get confusing.

I know you are a fan of the winner. I have been trying to play with mine for a month now. It's heft and flexibility are just too unforgiving. I feel like my full swing and power are too minimized at times
 
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Since no one has done the metal rackets, I'll give them a try:

1. Head Professional (The Red Head)
2. PDP Open (Quite similar to the Head Professional)
3. Yonex OPS (Several variants, all good but the green 8500 was my favorite)
4. Prince Classic (Giant head for its day made good power and decent control)
5. Lacoste Steel/Wilson T-2000 (If you could find the sweet spot, power was unmatched in its day)

Honorable mention: Seamless/Seamco/Hart/Acro Rosewall (PIA to string)
 
Since no one has done the metal rackets, I'll give them a try:

1. Head Professional (The Red Head)
2. PDP Open (Quite similar to the Head Professional)
3. Yonex OPS (Several variants, all good but the green 8500 was my favorite)
4. Prince Classic (Giant head for its day made good power and decent control)
5. Lacoste Steel/Wilson T-2000 (If you could find the sweet spot, power was unmatched in its day)

Honorable mention: Seamless/Seamco/Hart/Acro Rosewall (PIA to string)
Ever seen a Dunlop XLT15? They were pretty popular down here in SA and quite the racquet to have circa 1980 or so
 
Ever seen a Dunlop XLT15? They were pretty popular down here in SA and quite the racquet to have circa 1980 or so

I never saw that racket when I was playing in the 70's and 80's. There are quite a few on sale on the auction site. It's hard to tell from a picture but it looks like it probably hit pretty well. I would be concerned, however, about the relatively narrow plastic center piece. It doesn't look like it would be stiff enough to prevent side-to-side flex. On the other hand, it seems pretty aerodynamic. I'm sure you could get excellent racket head speed.
 
Since no one has done the metal rackets, I'll give them a try:

1. Head Professional (The Red Head)
2. PDP Open (Quite similar to the Head Professional)
3. Yonex OPS (Several variants, all good but the green 8500 was my favorite)
4. Prince Classic (Giant head for its day made good power and decent control)
5. Lacoste Steel/Wilson T-2000 (If you could find the sweet spot, power was unmatched in its day)

Honorable mention: Seamless/Seamco/Hart/Acro Rosewall (PIA to string)

You left out the Prince Magnesium Pro, David, the one metal head that enjoyed the distinction of being released AFTER most of those classic graphites, and more than held its own against the field! The ad that introduced this series of racquets described them as having the "durability of metal, playability of graphite, at ungraphite-like price". It may be the one and only instance in which a metal racquet was marketed as a superior alternative to graphite.
 
You left out the Prince Magnesium Pro ...

I'm sure I left out quite a few! I only listed rackets that I've actually played with. After I posted I remembered the Chemold Laver. I really liked that racket except that the rivets in the throat kept breaking. Finally, my father, who worked at Grumman Aerospace at the time, took it to work and replaced the aluminum rivets with steel aircraft rivets. It never broke again!

The Birmal "All Metal", the first metal racket (with metal strings), the Dayton metal racket, also with metal strings which lasted forever, and the Keubler "Mark 77", the spaghetti strung racket Nastase used to defeat Vilas in 1977 thus getting spaghetti stringing banned, should also be given honorable mention.
 
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Since no one has done the metal rackets, I'll give them a try:

1. Head Professional (The Red Head)
2. PDP Open (Quite similar to the Head Professional)
3. Yonex OPS (Several variants, all good but the green 8500 was my favorite)
4. Prince Classic (Giant head for its day made good power and decent control)
5. Lacoste Steel/Wilson T-2000 (If you could find the sweet spot, power was unmatched in its day)

Honorable mention: Seamless/Seamco/Hart/Acro Rosewall (PIA to string)

Great list but I would I insert the Dunlop Volley over the PDP. The volley was used on tour quite a bit and was around longer than the PDP and a staple in every pro shop in the 70s
 
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Since no one has done the metal rackets, I'll give them a try:

1. Head Professional (The Red Head)
2. PDP Open (Quite similar to the Head Professional)
3. Yonex OPS (Several variants, all good but the green 8500 was my favorite)
4. Prince Classic (Giant head for its day made good power and decent control)
5. Lacoste Steel/Wilson T-2000 (If you could find the sweet spot, power was unmatched in its day)

Honorable mention: Seamless/Seamco/Hart/Acro Rosewall (PIA to string)

Two other popular metals were the Prince Mag Pro and Rawlings Tiebreaker, I also like the Head Ashe Comps
 
I never saw that racket when I was playing in the 70's and 80's. There are quite a few on sale on the auction site. It's hard to tell from a picture but it looks like it probably hit pretty well. I would be concerned, however, about the relatively narrow plastic center piece. It doesn't look like it would be stiff enough to prevent side-to-side flex. On the other hand, it seems pretty aerodynamic. I'm sure you could get excellent racket head speed.
I picked up a mint some time back
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums...B-F081-446B-9BD8-C1ED600BD7CA_zpstdk1cb0m.jpg
Similar in feel to this Yonex R3
http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums...3-C33C-468B-8166-C0CF133E43A3_zpshp6vjmig.jpg
 
interesting to see the votes for Kneissl here - I guess because of the Adidas heritage.
Personally I'd swap it out for the Yonex R22. Everything else I agree with - Prestige, Pro Staff 6.0 85, Prince Graphite, Max 200G...

Kneissl was very popular. White Star Pro was first full synthetic racquet (introduced in 1977). It was a magic racquet.
 
You left out the Prince Magnesium Pro, David, the one metal head that enjoyed the distinction of being released AFTER most of those classic graphites, and more than held its own against the field! The ad that introduced this series of racquets described them as having the "durability of metal, playability of graphite, at ungraphite-like price". It may be the one and only instance in which a metal racquet was marketed as a superior alternative to graphite.

Prince Magnesium Pro was very nice racquet. The Mid (90) version of it was the last metall racquet used by player to win Grand Slam tournament (Pat Cash - Wimbledon 1987).
 
BorgCash may have been thinking of the "World Star Pro", which was launched in the US in 1978. The first fully synthetic Kneissl frames were indeed introduced in 1977, but only in Europe - they were the 100% fiberglass "Cup Star" and fiberglass/graphite "World Cup". The White Star series wouldn't be out for a few more years.

KWSP_zpsmul7z5kc.jpg


Of course, the first commercially available 100% synthetic racquet in the world was the 1972 Voelkl Zebra. It could, should, might have been the Dura-Fiber XT, which was developed as early as 1968/9, and would likely have been sold under the Head brand, if Head hadn't been going through some major reorganization at that time during Howard's exit.
 
BorgCash may have been thinking of the "World Star Pro", which was launched in the US in 1978. The first fully synthetic Kneissl frames were indeed introduced in 1977, but only in Europe - they were the 100% fiberglass "Cup Star" and fiberglass/graphite "World Cup". The White Star series wouldn't be out for a few more years.

KWSP_zpsmul7z5kc.jpg


Of course, the first commercially available 100% synthetic racquet in the world was the 1972 Voelkl Zebra. It could, should, might have been the Dura-Fiber XT, which was developed as early as 1968/9, and would likely have been sold under the Head brand, if Head hadn't been going through some major reorganization at that time during Howard's exit.
Did the Völkl Zebra have an aluminum skin over the fiberglass?
 
Did the Völkl Zebra have an aluminum skin over the fiberglass?

Hi VS, I am pretty sure their fiberglass torsion box is sandwiched between two sheets of polyethylene and phenolic sidewalls.

Voelkl already had a carbon fiber torsion box ski in 1973, way ahead of everyone else. It's odd that they didn't bother transferring that technology to their tennis racquets for so many more years.

Other than the Head Competition series, the only other aluminum sandwich frames I am aware of are the Yamaha YCR series and the Tremont MAG-I.
 
...

Other than the Head Competition series, the only other aluminum sandwich frames I am aware of are the Yamaha YCR series and the Tremont MAG-I.

You're forgetting the Davis Duke Aluminum Composite. Standard Davis Duke racket sandwiched between two sheets of aluminum.

It's a rare day indeed that I remember some tennis trivia that you missed! ;)

x4j9xl.jpg
 
Hi VS, I am pretty sure their fiberglass torsion box is sandwiched between two sheets of polyethylene and phenolic sidewalls.

Voelkl already had a carbon fiber torsion box ski in 1973, way ahead of everyone else. It's odd that they didn't bother transferring that technology to their tennis racquets for so many more years.

Other than the Head Competition series, the only other aluminum sandwich frames I am aware of are the Yamaha YCR series and the Tremont MAG-I.
Thanks! Interesting stuff.
Rossignol had a line of aluminum sandwich frames. The RT, R40, and the Johan Kriek.
 
Thanks for the corrections! I did not know about the Davis and completely forgot about the Rossignols! :oops:

Just to get back on topic, I think most everyone reading this section of the board would more or less agree on the top 5 GOATs (as previous posts show); it's when we go beyond the top 5 or10 that the discussion can become more interesting.

I have now tried out 168 different racquets of various vintage on the court, for at least 15 minutes each, and have rated them based on my instant impressions (power, control, stability, comfort). Since I couldn't control for string differences, frame condition, grip size and weight disparities, and there was usually only a single example of each racquet for me to try, the results I collected are arguably little better than straight-up gut feelings.

Nevertheless, the best performers for me under these circumstances turned out to be:

1) 2-way tie: Sentra Boron Stealth, Dunlop Max 300i
2) 2-way tie: Match Mate Graphite, Wilson Hyper Hammer 5.3
3) 4-way tie: Wilson Odyssey Comp, Wilson Sting Midsize, T.A.Davis Esprit, Spalding Powertech 100
4) 3-way tie: Bard Mid-King (later version), Spalding Smasher (graphite version), Estusa P3 Laser
5) 2-way tie: Wilson TX-6000, Slazenger Phantom Gold (early version)

None of these sticks has ever made the shortlist for GOATs, probably because I am a mediocre player at best. and these frames just happened to be optimally set up for my present ability and physical condition. I can't even explain why some radically different racquets could end up performing so comparably well for me. My original intent behind this silly exercise was to use the data to identify my own "Goldilocks zone" in terms of weight, head size, balance, flex, swing weight, etc., but when I ran some basic statistical tests on my ratings against the physical measurements, I found no significant correlation between my results and any of the variables.

There is definitely plenty of science behind every GOAT, but at the individual level, there are just too many different factors contributing to our personal impression of any given stick on any given day for us to place undue confidence in numbers and ratings, at least not until we can reliably and objectively translate the full spectrum of game-playing sensations into independent numbers. I tend to see the consensus GOATs as public GOATs, and those that performed well in my own experiment as private GOATS. The public and private GOATs can happily co-exist without stepping on one another's hooves, and they never need to justify or explain their own existence to the other, because they are just a bunch of GOATS. :)
 
BorgCash may have been thinking of the "World Star Pro", which was launched in the US in 1978. The first fully synthetic Kneissl frames were indeed introduced in 1977, but only in Europe - they were the 100% fiberglass "Cup Star" and fiberglass/graphite "World Cup". The White Star series wouldn't be out for a few more years.

KWSP_zpsmul7z5kc.jpg


Of course, the first commercially available 100% synthetic racquet in the world was the 1972 Voelkl Zebra. It could, should, might have been the Dura-Fiber XT, which was developed as early as 1968/9, and would likely have been sold under the Head brand, if Head hadn't been going through some major reorganization at that time during Howard's exit.
Lendl did play with Kneissl White Star in Davis Cup in 1979 and even earlier, in 1978 in Roland Garros.
So, i keep thinking that White Star was introduced in 1977.

 
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Thanks for the corrections! I did not know about the Davis and completely forgot about the Rossignols! :oops:

Just to get back on topic, I think most everyone reading this section of the board would more or less agree on the top 5 GOATs (as previous posts show); it's when we go beyond the top 5 or10 that the discussion can become more interesting.

I have now tried out 168 different racquets of various vintage on the court, for at least 15 minutes each, and have rated them based on my instant impressions (power, control, stability, comfort). Since I couldn't control for string differences, frame condition, grip size and weight disparities, and there was usually only a single example of each racquet for me to try, the results I collected are arguably little better than straight-up gut feelings.

Nevertheless, the best performers for me under these circumstances turned out to be:

1) 2-way tie: Sentra Boron Stealth, Dunlop Max 300i
2) 2-way tie: Match Mate Graphite, Wilson Hyper Hammer 5.3
3) 4-way tie: Wilson Odyssey Comp, Wilson Sting Midsize, T.A.Davis Esprit, Spalding Powertech 100
4) 3-way tie: Bard Mid-King (later version), Spalding Smasher (graphite version), Estusa P3 Laser
5) 2-way tie: Wilson TX-6000, Slazenger Phantom Gold (early version)

None of these sticks has ever made the shortlist for GOATs, probably because I am a mediocre player at best. and these frames just happened to be optimally set up for my present ability and physical condition. I can't even explain why some radically different racquets could end up performing so comparably well for me. My original intent behind this silly exercise was to use the data to identify my own "Goldilocks zone" in terms of weight, head size, balance, flex, swing weight, etc., but when I ran some basic statistical tests on my ratings against the physical measurements, I found no significant correlation between my results and any of the variables.

There is definitely plenty of science behind every GOAT, but at the individual level, there are just too many different factors contributing to our personal impression of any given stick on any given day for us to place undue confidence in numbers and ratings, at least not until we can reliably and objectively translate the full spectrum of game-playing sensations into independent numbers. I tend to see the consensus GOATs as public GOATs, and those that performed well in my own experiment as private GOATS. The public and private GOATs can happily co-exist without stepping on one another's hooves, and they never need to justify or explain their own existence to the other, because they are just a bunch of GOATS. :)

Sanglier,

Outstanding post as we all expect from you.

Good points on the consensus with the GOAT candidate rackets.

Your tests are exceptional since most of us that have been blessed with big collections or playing tennis over decades with some of the top GOAT racket candidates, are doing evaluations based on memory, not short term tests.

You do point out the setups can make a big difference and for me, most classics with natural gut will make a big difference and if its syn gut and old or too tight, I may not even rate a classic GOAT candidate as others expect.

Also, its good that you point out your playing level since that can make a big difference in rankings. I believe most advanced players who played woodys will opt more for the early classic graphites with the smaller heads.

Its great to see you list some less knows and hope it inspires more collectors to do the same.
 
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