Top 5 in Open Era by surface

[insideoutforehanders]

Women

Grass:

1. Serena- I put her 1st as her grass competition was light years better than Navratilova and Graf and still won 7 Wimbledons and reached 10 finals.

2. Court- Thought of putting her at #1 as she has 19 grass slams out if 3 grass slams so an average of over 6 per slam, higher than Navratilova who averaged 6, and her grass competition is way tougher than Graf or Navratilova. Didn't due to her Wimbledon record.

3. Graf- Has the highest average of grass slams per event (7) so probably should be #1, especialy as she easily beats Navratilova's Wimbledon record without big knee operation in 97. But her grass competition totally sucked.

4. Navratilova- Grass competition also sucked, her toughest opponent being Evert who isn't even a top 8 grass courter in the Open Era, and still averaged only 6 grass slams per major, lowest of top 4. Also if everyone plays Australia 76-79 (years she missed) wins 1 at most for still only an average of 6.5 slams per grass slam.

5. Venus- Could even easily be higher as she won 5 Wimbledons and reached a bunch more finals peaking in by far the toughest era ever.

5 tied. King- She barely played Australia so her real average is 5 grass slams per slam. Quite good in tougher grass era than say Navratilova had.



Clay

1. Seles- Atleast 9 French Opens without stabbing so easy #1.

2. Evert- 10 real French Opens as US open on clay 75-77 replaces 3 French Opens she missed. Behind Seles as much weaker field than when Seles won her 9+ French Opens.

3. Graf- Wins 4 or 5 French Opens even without Seles stabbing in toughest clay era ever. I think prime to prime she beats Chris but 4 or 5 French Opens vs 10 put her behind.

4.Henin

5. Sanchez- 3 French Opens in by far toughest clay era ever.


Hard Court:

1. Serena- Easy #1

2. Seles- Based on no stabbing achievements.

3. Graf

4. Evert

5.Navratilova

 

[Berrettini_Fan]

Navratilova for grass, Evert for clay, and Serena for HC.

 

[boredone3456]

Grass
1. Navratilova
2-4 some order of Graf Court and Serena. I'd probably have to really think on it all 3 were solid greats on grass
5. King or Venus

Clay
1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Henin
4. Seles
5. Vicario or Swiatek

Hard
1. Serena
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Navratilova
5. Honestly...all of Seles, Hingis and Clijsters could be argued for this spot at the moment. I'd probably give it to Seles.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Now men

Grass

1. Federer- On achievements has to be #1.

2. Sampras- I do think prime to prime he takes Federer most of the time but his achievements are clearly behind and it is not like either played in a strong grass era or significantly tougher than the other. So rankings wise kind of has to be behind. Even if born at same time would almost certainly be over Federer.

3. Borg- Only man with 5 straight and in super tough era.

4. Djokovic- #2 on achievements but crummy grass field, by far worst ever, lowers him. If he wins #8 which is super unlikely must rise to #3 or #2 on achievements alone though.

5. McEnroe- Close between him and Becker but went Mcenroe based on tougher era and challenging/overcoming peak Borg while Becker flopped hard vs prime Sampras.

Clay

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Lend
4. Djokovic
5. Kuerten

That one so easy.


Hard Court

1. Djokovic
2. Federer
3. Sampras

4. Connors- He would have 7 US Opens on hard courts if they were on hard courts vs grass or clay in 74-77, plus who knows how many Australians if on hard and all playing 74-85. Based on thar must be atleast 4th, and even a case for higher.

5. Agassi, Nadal, Lendl, Mcenroe- No i

Grass
1. Navratilova
2-4 some order of Graf Court and Serena. I'd probably have to really think on it all 3 were solid greats on grass
5. King or Venus

Clay
1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Henin
4. Seles
5. Vicario or Swiatek

Hard
1. Serena
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Navratilova
5. Honestly...all of Seles, Hingis and Clijsters could be argued for this spot at the moment. I'd probably give it to Seles.

Henin over Seles on clay!?!?! Even with the stabbing and a way worse clay field she has only 1 more French Open. To each their own I guess. In fairness I do think Henin wins atleast 7 without her early retirement in 2008 but that was her choice.

Does Davenport have a case on hards of Top 5? Dissapointingly low number if slams but a horse load of other titles for modern times.

 

[jl809]

Women

Grass:

1. Serena- I put her 1st as her grass competition was light years better than Navratilova and Graf and still won 7 Wimbledons and reached 10 finals.

8 Wimbledon finals against Evert and Graf combined is absolutely not light years behind 5 finals against Venus and Sharapova

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Sorry finishing my earlier mens list settling on Nadal at #5 on hard courts over Agassi, Lebd, McEnroe since he had the 2 hard court GOATs in his way and still won 6 and reached a ton of finals.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

8 Wimbledon finals against Evert and Graf combined is absolutely not light years behind 5 finals against Venus and Sharapova

Her only time over Graf ever at Wimbledon was before Grafs prime and at the end of Martina's, when Graf's prime began in 88 she never beat her again, and won only 1 more Wimbledon. And Venus is clearly a tougher opponent on grass than Evert who was Martina's only tough opponent apart from maybe Hana, as you can't count Graf who is not her contemporary. Graf for Martina is like the Williams sisters for Graf, as it is a 13 year age gap. A field of Venus, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis, Henin, Mauresmo >>>>>>>>>> a field of Evert, Mandlikova, Shriver, Sukova, Turnbull. No contest.

Martina would never, ever win 9 Wimbledons nor even Graf 7 Wimbledons
considering her injury shortened career in Serena's era. I would bet my life and house combined on it if a time machine were invented.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Men

Grass

1 Federer
2 Sampras
3 Djokovic
4 Borg
5 McEnroe

Clay

1 Nadal

2 Borg



3 Djokovic
4 Lendl
5 Vilas (or alternatively Wilander or Kuerten)

Hard

1 Djokovic
2 Federer
3 Sampras
4 Lendl
5 Connors

Alcaraz could enter the top 3 on clay at the end of his career, and Sinner in the top 3 on hard.

 

[jl809]

Her only time over Graf ever at Wimbledon was before Grafs prime and at the end of Martina's, and Venus is clearly tougher opponent on grass than Evert who was Martina's only tough opponent apart from maybe Hana, as you can't count Graf who is not her contemporary A field if Venus, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingus, Henin, Mauresmo >>>>>>>>>> a field of Evert, Mandlikova, Shriver, Sukova, Turnbull.

yes but she then did play Graf twice when Graf was at her peak. We can’t ignore the fact that Graf denied Navratilova 2 Wimbledons

Plus there is no evidence that Evert is a clearly less tough opponent on grass than Venus. Evert reached the Wimbledon final 10 times and won 3 times. Venus reached it 9 times and won 5 times. That doesn’t tell us Venus is better - ironically Evert becomes a “tougher opponent” if Navratilova had been worse and let her win a few more titles

 

[Aabye5]

Grass
1. Navratilova
2-4 some order of Graf Court and Serena. I'd probably have to really think on it all 3 were solid greats on grass
5. King or Venus

Clay
1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Henin
4. Seles
5. Vicario or Swiatek

Hard
1. Serena
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Navratilova
5. Honestly...all of Seles, Hingis and Clijsters could be argued for this spot at the moment. I'd probably give it to Seles.

Seles is much higher than Clijsters. She really brought power to the WTA game in a way that is almost reminiscent of...Lendl, maybe?

 

[insideoutforehanders]

yes but she then did play Graf twice when Graf was at her peak. We can’t ignore the fact that Graf denied Navratilova 2 Wimbledons

Plus there is no evidence that Evert is a clearly less tough opponent on grass than Venus. Evert reached the Wimbledon final 10 times and won 3 times. Venus reached it 9 times and won 5 times. That doesn’t tell us Venus is better - ironically Evert becomes a “tougher opponent” if Navratilova had been worse and let her win a few more titles

Do you think any expert would rank Evert higher than Venus on grass, that Evert would win in a series of matches with both in their times on grass, or that Evert would win more than Venus on grass transported to Venus's era, or Venus less than Evert transported to hers? No to each, yeah that is what I thought. Not going to bother in a pointless discussion with a troll.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Seles is much higher than Clijsters. She really brought power to the WTA game in a way that is almost reminiscent of...Lendl, maybe?

Plus even post stabbing Seles owned Clijsters.

 

[boredone3456]

Seles is much higher than Clijsters. She really brought power to the WTA game in a way that is almost reminiscent of...Lendl, maybe?

I ended up giving that spot to Seles because of that. I gave Clijsters a nod for the spot based on her winning 3 straight US Opens she entered, along with her winning many Tier 1/WTA 1000 level hardcourt titles. I also have always respected she was able to win IW and Miami back to back in 03. Plus...her 3 Hard Court YEC wins (especially beating Serena in 2002) are impressive.

 

[Winner Sinner]

To say that Djokovic on grass speculated on a weak era is not true.

Until 2019 on the surface he had to compete with the GOAT of the surface even if out of prime.
During his reign he also met two very competitive versions of Nadal (2011 and 2018), plus a Murray who on the surface was not exactly the last to arrive.
And he also had time to face a future ATG of the surface like Alcaraz.

Honestly, as much as I recognize that Federer on grass was the GOAT, I would never say that during his reign at Wimbledon he faced tougher competition than that faced by Djokovic on the surface.
The difference is that Federer had greater dominance.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

I ended up giving that spot to Seles because of that. I gave Clijsters a nod for the spot based on her winning 3 straight US Opens she entered, along with her winning many Tier 1/WTA 1000 level hardcourt titles. I also have always respected she was able to win IW and Miami back to back in 03. Plus...her 3 Hard Court YEC wins (especially beating Serena in 2002) are impressive.

Just curious too how you can put Swiatek Top 5 on clay given the terrible competition she had.

Clijsters also choked often in Australia. Where she really should have atleast 3 titles. Seles has 6 hard court slams to her 4 even with the stabbing. Even if Kim played in a tougher era, and took early retirement twice.

 

[Aabye5]

Do you think any expert would rank Evert higher than Venus on grass, that Evert would win in a series of matches with both in their times on grass, or that Evert would win more than Venus on grass transported to Venus's era, or Venus less than Evert transported to hers? No to each, yeah that is what I thought. Not going to bother in a pointless discussion with a troll.

I do actually give Evert a slight edge here. (Even though she played club tennis )

H2H shouldn't necessarily matter in these situations, especially if they are hypothetical H2Hs.

It's possible Sampras would have been a terrible matchup for Nadal...but it doesn't take away from their greatness in their respective eras. We have seen how champions adapt. And we know that even a bad h2h (Fed v Rafa) doesn't always prevent a player from winning a major (Fed at RG).

 

[Aabye5]

I ended up giving that spot to Seles because of that. I gave Clijsters a nod for the spot based on her winning 3 straight US Opens she entered, along with her winning many Tier 1/WTA 1000 level hardcourt titles. I also have always respected she was able to win IW and Miami back to back in 03. Plus...her 3 Hard Court YEC wins (especially beating Serena in 2002) are impressive.

Yes, that was no slight to Clijsters. (After a baby!)

But it just shows how deep the WTA has been as far as hard court tennis. Multi-Slam champs might not even make the top 8.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

I do actually give Evert a slight edge here. (Even though she played club tennis )

H2H shouldn't necessarily matter in these situations, especially if they are hypothetical H2Hs.

It's possible Sampras would have been a terrible matchup for Nadal...but it doesn't take away from their greatness in their respective eras. We have seen how champions adapt. And we know that even a bad h2h (Fed v Rafa) doesn't always prevent a player from winning a major (Fed at RG).

I agree achievements matter most. And Venus has almost double the Wimbledon titles to Evert in a way tougher era to boot. Case closed. I only mentioned the other stuff since some troll was trying to argue her as better than Venus on grass by awarding phantom titles by taking away Martina, and even doing that taking away both Serena and Martina, Venus still probably wins more than Evert, LMFAO!

 

[boredone3456]

Just curious too how you can put Swiatek Top 5 on clay given the terrible competition she had.

Clijsters also choked often in Australia. Where she really should have atleast 3 titles. Seles has 6 hard court slams to her 4 even with the stabbing. Even if Kim played in a tougher era, and took early retirement twice.

With Swiatek...horrible competition or not she won 4 French Opens in 5 years and the Italian Open 3 times in 4 years....also has won Madrid.

She currently sits with a record of 35-2 at the French open, winning it 4 of the 6 times she has played it. Thats a 95% winning percentage at the French....and she's only 23. Her overall clay record has her at a current winning percentage of like...86%. If she keeps on at anything like this current pace odds are she will add a couple more Frenches and other titles to her resume, but even without that she has blown away most players entire careers on clay before her 24th birthday. No matter how lousy you wanna say the clay field us, Iga has royally stomped all over it for several years now in ways few have been able to for any period of time.

 

[boredone3456]

Yes, that was no slight to Clijsters. (After a baby!)

But it just shows how deep the WTA has been as far as hard court tennis. Multi-Slam champs might not even make the top 8.

That also is part of it...Clijsters came back and won the US Open as a WC after having a baby....beating both Venus and Serena on the way to doing it. I think she's also beaten Venus like...3 or 4 times specifically at the US Open. Even factoring in Clijsters being kinda a headcase and being deemed "to nice to win a major" for several years before she actually got the US Open, she was great on hardcourts.

 

[jl809]

Do you think any expert would rank Evert higher than Venus on grass, that Evert would win in a series of matches with both in their times on grass, or that Evert would win more than Venus on grass transported to Venus's era, or Venus less than Evert transported to hers? No to each, yeah that is what I thought. Not going to bother in a pointless discussion with a troll.

why would any expert speculate on that? They used different racket tech lol. Would be like speculating seriously about 1970s Borg vs 00s Federer on clay

This is not trolling btw, it’s just disagreement. My point is simply that the difference was not light years - I’m not sure what Navratilova was supposed to do to rank herself higher beyond what she did (beating a 10 time Wimbledon finalist multiple times and facing another grass GOAT in 3 finals, including 2x in that GOAT’s peak).

Like I said before, the whole reason Evert is not top 8 in the grass in the OE is because of Navratilova shutting the door on her over and over again. That’s not a black mark on Navratilova, for whom losing more would have elevated Evert. It’s like diminishing Nadal for having weak clay opposition because he stomped on Fed and Djoker so many times that they only have 4 RGs out of 13 finals

 

[nam416]

.

 

[PDJ]

Women

Grass - Navratilova
Clay - Evert (& if the OP is picking Seles on 'what if', Evert has an even greater claim given the 3 she missed during her zenith on clay)
Hard - too hard to pick only one.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Now men

Grass

1. Federer- On achievements has to be #1.

2. Sampras- I do think prime to prime he takes Federer most of the time but his achievements are clearly behind and it is not like either played in a strong grass era or significantly tougher than the other. So rankings wise kind of has to be behind. Even if born at same time would almost certainly be over Federer.

3. Both- Only man with 5 straight and in super tough era.

4. Djokovic- #2 on achievements but crummy grass field, by far worst ever, lowers him. If he wins #8 which is super unlikely must rise to #3 or #2 on achievements alone though.

5. McEnroe- Close between him and Becker but went Mcenroe based on tougher era and challenging/overcoming peak Borg while Becker flopped hard vs prime Sampras.

Clay

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Lend
4. Djokovic
5. Kuerten

That one so easy.


Hard Court

1. Djokovic
2. Federer
3. Sampras

4. Connors- He would have 7 US Opens on hard courts if they were on hard courts vs grass or clay in 74-77, plus who knows how many Australians if on hard and all playing 74-85. Based on thar must be atleast 4th, and even a case for higher.

5. Agassi, Nadal, Lendl, Mcenroe- No i

Henin over Seles on clay!?!?! Even with the stabbing and a way worse clay field she has only 1 more French Open. To each their own I guess. In fairness I do think Henin wins atleast 7 without her early retirement in 2008 but that was her choice.

Does Davenport have a case on hards of Top 5? Dissapointingly low number if slams but a horse load of other titles for modern times.

Very stupid response that Djokovic for you is 4th now and with 1 more he becomes 2nd

Lmao

@timnz for the win. Always consistent.

 

[Aabye5]

That also is part of it...Clijsters came back and won the US Open as a WC after having a baby....beating both Venus and Serena on the way to doing it. I think she's also beaten Venus like...3 or 4 times specifically at the US Open. Even factoring in Clijsters being kinda a headcase and being deemed "to nice to win a major" for several years before she actually got the US Open, she was great on hardcourts.

Clijsters gives me hope for FAA. Minus the baby, of course.

 

[Martin J]

Her only time over Graf ever at Wimbledon was before Grafs prime and at the end of Martina's, when Graf's prime began in 88 she never beat her again, and won only 1 more Wimbledon. And Venus is clearly a tougher opponent on grass than Evert who was Martina's only tough opponent apart from maybe Hana, as you can't count Graf who is not her contemporary. Graf for Martina is like the Williams sisters for Graf, as it is a 13 year age gap. A field of Venus, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis, Henin, Mauresmo >>>>>>>>>> a field of Evert, Mandlikova, Shriver, Sukova, Turnbull. No contest.

Martina would never, ever win 9 Wimbledons nor even Graf 7 Wimbledons
considering her injury shortened career in Serena's era. I would bet my life and house combined on it if a time machine were invented.

Strongly disagree with this. The 1987 Graf was very much prime, she reached the finals of every major she played (skipped the AO) and won the French, beating the very same Navratilova in the final. She also won the Championships and another nine titles that year, the Fed Cup (destroying Chris Evert and winning the doubles match in the final) and had a 75-2 W/L ratio for the season and was the #1 player in the world.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Strongly disagree with this. The 1987 Graf was very much prime, she reached the finals of every major she played (skipped the AO) and won the French, beating the very same Navratilova in the final. She also won the Championships and another nine titles that year, the Fed Cup and had a 75-2 W/L ratio for the season and was the #1 player in the world.

Graf was about 2 whole notches better playing level wise (I am old tennis fan and watched regularly around then) in 88 or 89, or even her slump year of 90, than 87, which makes it clear 88 was the start of her prime. And going 75-2, not in her prime, is just an indication of the terrible field of the Martina era outside Chris, clearly past her prime now, and Martina, barely in hers, that anyone who followed tennis then already knows about anyway. Hana was also majorly on decline after 87 Australia, and a 70% at most of 88-96, can still easily own an old Evert, declining Hana, Shriver, Sukova, Kohde Kilsch, Hanika, baby Sabatini, and anyone but Martina. And i highly doubt a fully prime Graf falls that easily, 7-6, 6-1 to a nearly 31 year old Martina in a US Open final, LOL. The one and only year she might is 91, by far the worst year of her actual prime form wise. Just like how Chris played absolutely awful for her standards in 83 and even 82, and stayed #2 behind Martina, and barely lost a match outside of Martina, since the field sucked hardcore. Martina in her own autobiography in early 85 mocked how terrible the field had gotten, and how much less depth there was than the 60s and 70s. I am out of town now but will give you the exact quote on that when back home where the book is.

You are one of the first people I ever heard say Graf's prime began in 87 vs 88 BTW.

 

[jl809]

Honestly, as much as I recognize that Federer on grass was the GOAT, I would never say that during his reign at Wimbledon he faced tougher competition than that faced by Djokovic on the surface.
The difference is that Federer had greater dominance.

mmm… I don’t know

1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x (07/08), peak Roddick 2x (04/09), prime Nadal 1x (06), prime Roddick 2x (03/05)
2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x (06/07), peak Djokovic 1x (11), prime Federer 1x (08), preprime Murray 3x (08/10/11)
3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x (11), peak Murray 1x (13), and postprime Federer 3x (12/14/15)
   
   
4. Federer's postprime competition: peak Djokovic 1x (15), prime Djokovic 2x (12/14), peak Murray 1x (12), prime Murray 1x (15), postprime Djokovic 1x (19), postprime Nadal 1x (19), mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
5. Djokovic's postprime competition: prime (peak?) Alcaraz 2x (23/24), super old Federer 1x (19), postprime Nadal indoors 1x (18), mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)

I’d say Nadal had the hardest competition in his prime and Federer had the hardest competition overall (and especially in his postprime when he faced the very best of Djokovic and Murray)

 

[insideoutforehanders]

With Swiatek...horrible competition or not she won 4 French Opens in 5 years and the Italian Open 3 times in 4 years....also has won Madrid.

She currently sits with a record of 35-2 at the French open, winning it 4 of the 6 times she has played it. Thats a 95% winning percentage at the French....and she's only 23. Her overall clay record has her at a current winning percentage of like...86%. If she keeps on at anything like this current pace odds are she will add a couple more Frenches and other titles to her resume, but even without that she has blown away most players entire careers on clay before her 24th birthday. No matter how lousy you wanna say the clay field us, Iga has royally stomped all over it for several years now in ways few have been able to for any period of time.

OK you convinced me. I forgot a bit just how much she has achieved outside the French Open. Partly as I have lost interest in the current field.

 

[Winner Sinner]

mmm… I don’t know

1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x (07/08), peak Roddick 2x (04/09), prime Nadal 1x (06), prime Roddick 2x (03/05)
2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x (06/07), peak Djokovic 1x (11), prime Federer 1x (08), preprime Murray 3x (08/10/11)
3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x (11), peak Murray 1x (13), and postprime Federer 3x (12/14/15)
   
   
4. Federer's postprime competition: peak Djokovic 1x (15), prime Djokovic 2x (12/14), peak Murray 1x (12), prime Murray 1x (15), postprime Djokovic 1x (19), postprime Nadal 1x (19), mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
5. Djokovic's postprime competition: prime (peak?) Alcaraz 2x (23/24), super old Federer 1x (19), postprime Nadal indoors 1x (18), mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)

I’d say Nadal had the hardest competition in his prime and Federer had the hardest competition overall (and especially in his postprime when he faced the very best of Djokovic and Murray)

Extended like this you're right, let's say that I was mainly referring to the competition that both of them (Federer and Djokovic) had in their respective primes.

 

[Martin J]

Graf was about 2 whole notches better playing level wise (I am old tennis fan and watched regularly around then) in 88 or 89, or even her slump year of 90, than 87, which makes it clear 88 was the start of her prime. And going 75-2, not in her prime, is just an indication of the terrible field of the Martina era outside Chris, clearly past her prime now, and Martina, barely in hers, that anyone who followed tennis then already knows about anyway. Hana was also majorly on decline after 87 Australia, and a 70% at most of 88-96, can still easily own an old Evert, declining Hana, Shriver, Sukova, Kohde Kilsch, Hanika, baby Sabatini, and anyone but Martina. And i highly doubt a fully prime Graf falls that easily, 7-6, 6-1 to a nearly 31 year old Martina in a US Open final, LOL. The one and only year she might is 91, by far the worst year of her actual prime form wise. Just like how Chris played absolutely awful for her standards in 83 and even 82, and stayed #2 behind Martina, and barely lost a match outside of Martina, since the field sucked hardcore. Martina in her own autobiography in early 85 mocked how terrible the field had gotten, and how much less depth there was than the 60s and 70s. I am out of town now but will give you the exact quote on that when back home where the book is.

You are one of the first people I ever heard say Graf's prime began in 87 vs 88 BTW.

When a player loses two matches in a season, no matter how depleted the field is, it's a prime level tennis no matter what one may think. You can disagree, I just don't see it that way.

And it's no shame losing to Martina in a GS final, I believe she was a tough opponent for Graf overall thanks to her net-rushing tactics (forcing her to hit BH passing shots, which Steffi hated) so that's not a strong argument. Again, she didn't hit her peak, but prime? Very much in my book.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Extended like this you're right, let's say that I was mainly referring to the competition that both of them (Federer and Djokovic) had in their respective primes.

But how is that fair when about half of Djokovic's Wimbledons were post prime. By contrast Federer did not win many post prime since he had a prime, or in one case a much less old than him Djokovic, in 2019. Post prime Djokovic has had nothing close to that, including even his 2 losses to Alcarez.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

When a player loses two matches in a season, no matter how depleted the field is, it's a prime level tennis no matter what one may think. You can disagree, I just don't see it that way.

And it's no shame losing to Martina in a GS final, I believe she was a tough opponent for Graf overall thanks to her net-rushing tactics (forcing her to hit BH passing shots, which Steffi hated) so that's not a strong argument. Again, she didn't hit her peak, but prime? Very much in my book.

Like I said Martina was nearly 31. And it was not just a loss, but a super easy final. Unless you invent a time machine and prove it to me I will never believe a prime Graf loses very easily in Wimbledon and US Open finals and needs a choke to win the RG final on clay vs an old, past their prime Martina. With the possible exception of 91, the worst year of tennis of her 88-96 (maybe adding 99) prime, and even that year Graf probably posts a better result than that at atleast 1 of the 3 vs an old, past her prime Martina.

 

[DSH]

With Swiatek...horrible competition or not she won 4 French Opens in 5 years and the Italian Open 3 times in 4 years....also has won Madrid.

She currently sits with a record of 35-2 at the French open, winning it 4 of the 6 times she has played it. Thats a 95% winning percentage at the French....and she's only 23. Her overall clay record has her at a current winning percentage of like...86%. If she keeps on at anything like this current pace odds are she will add a couple more Frenches and other titles to her resume, but even without that she has blown away most players entire careers on clay before her 24th birthday. No matter how lousy you wanna say the clay field us, Iga has royally stomped all over it for several years now in ways few have been able to for any period of time.

Can the Polish player continue to dominate the Parisian clay, or will the teenage prodigy end her reign?

 

[Martin J]

Like I said Martina was nearly 31. And it was not just a loss, but a super easy final. Unless you invent a time machine and prove it to me I will never believe a prime Graf loses very easily in Wimbledon and US Open finals and needs a choke to win the RG final on clay vs an old, past their prime Martina. With the possible exception of 91, the worst year of tennis of her 88-96 (maybe adding 99) prime, and even that year Graf probably posts a better result than that at atleast 1 of the 3 vs an old, past her prime Martina.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Epic. Did you watch the Oscar's this year BTW? Worst ever. So many great movies not even nominated and crummy movies cleaning up awards. Emilia Perez was even set to sweep before the twitter finds. Demi Moore was robbed too!!

 

[Hitman]

I go by achievements, the rest is just subjective.

Grass

Federer
Sampras
Djokovic


Clay

Nadal
Borg
Djokovic

Hard

Djokovic
Federer
Sampras

Djokovic is the only player I see as top three on every surface, which is why he is the most versatile champion of all time.

 

[Martin J]

Epic. Did you watch the Oscar's this year BTW? Worst ever. So many great movies not even nominated and crummy movies cleaning up awards. Emilia Perez was even set to sweep before the twitter finds. Demi Moore was robbed too!!

I haven't watched it, but now when you say that I think I will pass lol. And I agree about Demi Moore, she should've won it and it seems it really affected her emotionally, probably thinking it was her last chance.

 

[Biotic]

HC

Djoko
PETE
Lendl
Agassi
Connors

Grass

PETE
Djoko
Borg
McEnroe
Fraud

Clay

Dull
Borg
Lendl
Djoko
Guga

 

[TMF]

The Holy Trinity

Men:

Grass - Federer, Sampras, Borg
Clay - Nadal, Borg, Lendl
Hard Court - Federer, Djokovic, Sampras



Women:

Grass - Navratilova, Graf, Serena
Clay - Evert, Graf, Seles
Hard Court - Serena, Graf, Navratilova

 

[nolefam_2024]

HC
Djokovic
Federer
Pete
Agassi
Nadal (pre 90s hc was too complicated)

CC
Nadal
Borg
Lendl
Djokovic
Wilander


GC
Fed
Djokovic
Sampras
Borg
Becker

 

[insideoutforehanders]

The Holy Trinity

Men:

Grass - Federer, Sampras, Borg
Clay - Nadal, Borg, Lendl
Hard Court - Federer, Djokovic, Sampras



Women:

Grass - Navratilova, Graf, Serena
Clay - Evert, Graf, Seles
Hard Court - Serena, Graf, Navratilova

Just curious, do you rank Djokovic over Federer on hard courts? I considered it but was unsure. I do think playing level wise I favor Federer personally but stats mostly favor Djokovic, some heavily (but not all).

Also you don't have Court top 3 on grass? She has 19 grass majors which is incredible. Granted in an era there were 3. It is hard to know she should displace of Graf, Navratilova, Serena, as all 3 if those belong too, but hard to see a 19 grass slam winner out of Top 3. Tough category.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

HC
Djokovic
Federer
Pete
Agassi
Nadal (pre 90s hc was too complicated)

CC
Nadal
Borg
Lendl
Djokovic
Wilander


GC
Fed
Djokovic
Sampras
Borg
Becker

Come to think of it stats wise Wilander is superior to Kuerten on clay. I do think Kuerten at his best is more imposing to opponents, and that he wins additional RG titles without his hip. That is another tough comparison.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Come to think of it stats wise Wilander is superior to Kuerten on clay. I do think Kuerten at his best is more imposing to opponents, and that he wins additional RG titles without his hip. That is another tough comparison.

Yes it's tough to compare all 4 of the 3 rg winners. Kuerten is pretty good for top 5. But I am almost certain Carlos will be better than these 4.

 

[Hitman]

HC

Djoko
PETE
Lendl
Agassi
Connors

Grass

PETE
Djoko
Borg
McEnroe
Fraud

Clay

Dull
Borg
Lendl
Djoko
Guga

Federer not even top 5 on HC? ,

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Federer not even top 5 on HC? ,

Yeah that is......interesting.

 

[Hitman]

Yeah that is......interesting.

We all have our own ways to rank I guess.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Federer not even top 5 on HC? ,

Exactly it's impossible to rank Federer outside top 2. He has 100+ matches won at AO and some 90 matches won at USO and again almost 70 matches won at ATP finals which was not in carpet I think.

 

[TMF]

Just curious, do you rank Djokovic over Federer on hard courts? I considered it but was unsure. I do think playing level wise I favor Federer personally but stats mostly favor Djokovic, some heavily (but not all).

They are very close. I don't base on numbers alone to rank the players, but carefully observe the adept skills and the quality performance they pose on the court. I've followed their entire career and concluded that Federer who's more gifted has more all around game and higher ceiling than Djokovic.

Also you don't have Court top 3 on grass? She has 19 grass majors which is incredible. Granted in an era there were 3. It is hard to know she should displace of Graf, Navratilova, Serena, as all 3 if those belong too, but hard to see a 19 grass slam winner out of Top 3. Tough category.

Depth and level of competition plays a huge factor. Yes Court won a boat load of AO on grass but everyone in his/her right mind knows the AO in those days were much less challenging opponents, ~48 single draw, and most of the participants are from Aussie(lol)

 

[Hitman]

Exactly it's impossible to rank Federer outside top 2. He has 100+ matches won at AO and some 90 matches won at USO and again almost 70 matches won at ATP finals which was not in carpet I think.

I think it depends on what people value in their personal views.

I personally go with the objective achievements metric, so for me I don't get caught up in biased subjective stuff. The trophy cabinet is what matters to me, as greatness will be remember by what they won IMO.

This is why Djokovic has the strongest claim to being the greatest of all time, if such a thing exists, and he is top three for me on all three surfaces....and without question, no one ranks ahead of him on HC.