Top players of the CIE are being exposed by next gen

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Fonseca d. Rublev
Michelsen d. Tsitsipas
Mensik d. Ruud

These guys are supposed to be at their peak, only 26/27 years old, and they’re being beaten at slams by a bunch of kids. None of the matches went to 5.

EDIT: more CIE guys fall to next gen

Rune d. Berrettini
Tien d. Medvedev

 

[Aabye5]

Fonseca d. Rublev
Michelsen d. Tsitsipas
Mensik d. Ruud

These guys are supposed to be at their peak, only 26/27 years old, and they’re being beaten at slams by a bunch of kids. None of the matches went to 5.

These three have been slipping for a while and the other three are coming into their own -- bottom half of the top 10. The next wave of top tenners is cleaning house.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

These three have been slipping for a while and the other three are coming into their own -- bottom half of the top 10. The next wave of top tenners is cleaning house.

The other 3 are babies in the pro circuit. They should not be beating established top players at their peak so easily.

 

[Aabye5]

The other 3 are babies in the pro circuit. They should not be beating established top players at their peak so easily.

I don't buy that 26/27 is the peak for all players. And these are the gatekeepers at their most vulnerable.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

I don't buy that 26/27 is the peak for all players. And these are the gatekeepers at their most vulnerable.

Assuming a high standard of training, physically it is the peak, or at the very least close to it. Rublev is a gatekeeper. Tsitsipas and Ruud are former top 3 players who have 5 slam finals combined. They are among the very best players of their generation.

 

[Aabye5]

Assuming a high standard of training, physically it is the peak, or at the very least close to it. Rublev is a gatekeeper. Tsitsipas and Ruud are former top 3 players who have 5 slam finals combined. They are among the very best players of their generation.

Ruud doesn't even a M1000, iirc. Yes, he has major finals, but he was promptly dispatched in each. Biggest beneficiary of his generation being unable to string together a set of wins.

 

[ppma]

They're the youngest tha prove what many have been saying for years. Weak field that have contributed to the career inflation of players that are in their mid/late 30s and are the shadow of what the has been.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Ruud doesn't even a M1000, iirc. Yes, he has major finals, but he was promptly dispatched in each. Biggest beneficiary of his generation being unable to string together a set of wins.

Says a lot then that Ruud is the 4th best player of his generation and was one win away from the top ranking.

 

[Aabye5]

Says a lot then that Ruud is the 4th best player of his generation and was one win away from the top ranking.

You're not wrong

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

They're the youngest tha prove what many have been saying for years. Weak field that have contributed to the career inflation of players that are in their mid/late 30s and are the shadow of what the has been.

Yes, these guys were Novak’s main competition in slams, and now we’re seeing that even teenagers can beat them easily.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

You're not wrong

I expected Fonseca and Mensik to do great things, I just didn’t think they would beat the current crop so easily and so soon. Michelsen is already 2-0 vs Tsitsipas.

 

[Aabye5]

I expected Fonseca and Mensik to do great things, I just didn’t think they would beat the current crop so easily and so soon. Michelsen is already 2-0 vs Tsitsipas.

Tsitsipas is in shambles. Brings so much negativity to the court. His exho match against Sinner at the start of the tournament wasn't even fun. His game is losing steam, and he seems more than happy to go home early.

 

[NoleFam]

Yes, these guys were Novak’s main competition in slams, and now we’re seeing that even teenagers can beat them easily.

And here comes the main point of this thread. Lol. He played Ruud and Rublev once each to win a Slam when he was 35+ so how were they his main competition? He played Tsitsipas twice in Slam finals when he actually was a top player and top 4 in the world, unlike now when he's #12 and getting beaten by everyone. 2/10 for your efforts though.

 

[ibbi]

Etcheverry downed Cobolli for the 20th century boys.

 

[Tennfan123]

Fonseca d. Rublev
Michelsen d. Tsitsipas
Mensik d. Ruud

These guys are supposed to be at their peak, only 26/27 years old, and they’re being beaten at slams by a bunch of kids. None of the matches went to 5.

I agree but I’m a believer that 26 is near end of peak so what is happening there is the natural order of things. That doesn’t man cie guys won’t still have success into their 30s but it’s going to be a lot more difficult as future gems come up.

 

[SteffiGoat]

Other than Zverev, all the 'top players' from that generation have declined a lot in the past year.

Hopefully, Meddy can find some form soon.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

And here comes the main point of this thread. Lol. He played Ruud and Rublev once each to win a Slam when he was 35+ so how were they his main competition? He played Tsitsipas twice in Slam finals when he actually was a top player and top 4 in the world, unlike now when he's #12 and getting beaten by everyone. 2/10 for your efforts though.

He played Ruud, Rublev and Tsitsipas on the way to 4 slams. That’s more than half of his 7 wins from 2021-2023. As a group of players, I’d say that counts as main competition. Tsitsipas literally said “I would actually say that I’m a better player now than I was back then,” right after his loss, so this is him at his peak.

 

[ghostofMecir]

Fonseca d. Rublev
Michelsen d. Tsitsipas
Mensik d. Ruud

These guys are supposed to be at their peak, only 26/27 years old, and they’re being beaten at slams by a bunch of kids. None of the matches went to 5.

Oh, 100%. All of these players were also betting favorites (i.e., Rublev -175, Tsitsipas -165, and Ruud -140) and provided perhaps the best betting value to fade, i.e., to bet against. The books were using their names and rankings and got a lot of action on them just like they wanted. Michelsen controlled two matches over a span of 7 sets vs. the Greek, picking on his backhand and generally manhandling him from the baseline. Fonseca has a better forecourt game than Rublev at the age of 18 (actually, probably did when he was 17). Mensik had a much, much tougher time at the NextGen Finals dealing with Tien’s ball-striking than anything Ruud offered.

—Ruud is 11-14 in his last 25 matches.
—Rublev is 19-20 in his last 39 matches. Even outside the losses at the Tour Finals, he came back out this year and played a meh match vs. Marozan and then was beaten up by Fonseca.
—Tsitsipas is 18-14 in his last 32.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

I agree but I’m a believer that 26 is near end of peak so what is happening there is the natural order of things. That doesn’t man cie guys won’t still have success into their 30s but it’s going to be a lot more difficult as future gems come up.

Yes, end of peak but still peak. A 26 yo still has an age advantage over a teenager. The CIE guys at showing that they weren’t good enough to beat the older gen before them nor are they good enough to beat the younger gen after them.

 

[NoleFam]

He played Ruud, Rublev and Tsitsipas on the way to 4 slams. That’s more than half of his 7 wins from 2021-2023. As a group of players, I’d say that counts as main competition. Tsitsipas literally said “I would actually say that I’m a better player now than I was back then,” right after his loss, so this is him at his peak.

Rublev has never even been to a Slam SF. This is pretty much a troll on your part making it seem like he was his main competition. He wasn't. He played Ruud in one Slam final, and same for Nadal and Alcaraz. I guess he was their main competition too. Tsistipas was a great player and beat Fedal in Australia, where Djokovic played him in one of his Slam finals, so nice try to make him seem like a run of the mill player when we know what he was capable of at his best.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Rublev has never even been to a Slam SF. This is pretty much a troll on your part making it seem like he was his main competition. He wasn't. He played Ruud in one Slam final, and same for Nadal and Alcaraz. I guess he was their main competition too. Tsistipas was a great player and beat Fedal in Australia, where Djokovic played him in one of his Slam finals, so nice try to make him seem like a run of the mill player when we know what he was capable of at his best.

Novak did not have a consistent main slam rival from 2021-2023. Medvedev was the closest, but aside from Medvedev, who else was there? It’s actually Tsitsipas then Berettini, Ruud and Kyrgios. Kyrgios also lost in 1R lol. So yes, these guys were a large part of his main competition. Tsitsipas is a okay player who gets overrated by people with an agenda. I really don’t put much weight on him beating heavily declined 37 yo Roger and 35 yo Nadal. Novak beat him in Australia while he was in the middle of a 1 year title drought. Let’s not pretend he wasn’t struggling before and after that tournament. Actually, Tsitsipas’s physical peak years has been a story of being completely overshadowed on clay by Alcaraz. Why is he struggling now when he’s only 26? He didn’t decline. He said himself that he’s a better player now than back then. It’s just easier to look good in a vacuum. There are simply a lot of players who are better than him and he has massive holes in his game that were never addressed.

 

[socallefty]

When young guys don’t beat the old guys you don’t like, it is an inflation era. When young guys beat the older guys you like, it is an inflation era. It is always an inflation era for TTW posters who keep posting the same meme-level crap for 20 years until it becomes dogma on TTW.

 

[Purestriker]

Ruud doesn't even a M1000, iirc. Yes, he has major finals, but he was promptly dispatched in each. Biggest beneficiary of his generation being unable to string together a set of wins.

He thrives on the dirt, not so great on a harcourt (unless its slow with a lot of bounce).

 

[DSH]

I don't buy that 26/27 is the peak for all players. And these are the gatekeepers at their most vulnerable.

But in their prime they should be.

 

[travlerajm]

Assuming a high standard of training, physically it is the peak, or at the very least close to it. Rublev is a gatekeeper. Tsitsipas and Ruud are former top 3 players who have 5 slam finals combined. They are among the very best players of their generation.

The peak has always been 21-25. External circumstances sometimes obscure this.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

The peak has always been 21-25. External circumstances sometimes obscure this.

Like I said, at the very least very close to it.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Oh, 100%. All of these players were also betting favorites (i.e., Rublev -175, Tsitsipas -165, and Ruud -140) and provided perhaps the best betting value to fade, i.e., to bet against. The books were using their names and rankings and got a lot of action on them just like they wanted. Michelsen controlled two matches over a span of 7 sets vs. the Greek, picking on his backhand and generally manhandling him from the baseline. Fonseca has a better forecourt game than Rublev at the age of 18 (actually, probably did when he was 17). Mensik had a much, much tougher time at the NextGen Finals dealing with Tien’s ball-striking than anything Ruud offered.

—Ruud is 11-14 in his last 25 matches.
—Rublev is 19-20 in his last 39 matches. Even outside the losses at the Tour Finals, he came back out this year and played a meh match vs. Marozan and then was beaten up by Fonseca.
—Tsitsipas is 18-14 in his last 32.

Tien is up against Medvedev next. I don’t expect him to win, but should be interesting to see how he stacks up.

 

[NoleFam]

Novak did not have a consistent main slam rival from 2021-2023. Medvedev was the closest, but aside from Medvedev, who else was there? It’s actually Tsitsipas then Berettini, Ruud and Kyrgios. Kyrgios also lost in 1R lol. So yes, these guys were a large part of his main competition. Tsitsipas is a okay player who gets overrated by people with an agenda. I really don’t put much weight on him beating heavily declined 37 yo Roger and 35 yo Nadal. Novak beat him in Australia while he was in the middle of a 1 year title drought. Let’s not pretend he wasn’t struggling before and after that tournament. Actually, Tsitsipas’s physical peak years has been a story of being completely overshadowed on clay by Alcaraz. Why is he struggling now when he’s only 26? He didn’t decline. He said himself that he’s a better player now than back then. It’s just easier to look good in a vacuum. There are simply a lot of players who are better than him and he has massive holes in his game that were never addressed.

Djokovic's main rival in 2021-2023 in Slams was obviously Medvedev (3 finals). Then it was a combination of yes Tsitsipas (2 finals), Alcaraz (final, SF), Berrettini (final, 2 QFs), Nadal (SF, QF), Zverev (SF, QF) and Sinner (SF, QF). So that's 7 different players right there that he played multiple times in Slams on his way to titles. Pretending it's Ruud and Kyrgios when they played once is fiction.

So when Djokovic beat Tsitsipas in a Slam final he was struggling but now when he lost in the 1st round he's at his peak? LOL. It's obvious Tsitsipas is playing nowhere near the level now that he was in 2019-2021 no matter what he says, when we all know he doesn't even believe that.

 

[mahatma]

The never ending discussion of ICE Age in tennis

 

[Hitman]

So when Tsitsipas says he is playing better now than before we should take his word for it but when Federer said the same thing in 2015 we should look at the results and see he is not telling the truth.

 

[TMF]

Fonseca d. Rublev
Michelsen d. Tsitsipas
Mensik d. Ruud

These guys are supposed to be at their peak, only 26/27 years old, and they’re being beaten at slams by a bunch of kids. None of the matches went to 5.

The teenage 2000 born players are beating the peak 90s born players further proof the CIE exist. Unless your blinded, there's no denying that the 90s born players are awfully weak.

No excuse for them to managed to win only 2 slams combined, and the window is about to shut !

 

[TMF]

So when Tsitsipas says he is playing better now than before we should take his word for it but when Federer said the same thing in 2015 we should look at the results and see he is not telling the truth.

LOL
26 years old Tsitsipas today is an ideal age for a tennis player. Federer is 34 years old in 2015, well pass his prime. Big difference

 

[Fedforever]

Tsitsipas is in shambles. Brings so much negativity to the court. His exho match against Sinner at the start of the tournament wasn't even fun. His game is losing steam, and he seems more than happy to go home early.

Anyone who becomes better known for his toilet habits than his game has a bit of an issue.

 

[Hitman]

LOL
26 years old Tsitsipas today is an ideal age for a tennis player. Federer is 34 years old in 2015, well pass his prime. Big difference

Thanks for confirming the double standards.

 

[TMF]

Thanks for confirming the double standards.

Nope. You're comparing apples to oranges here. No way an old 34 years old player is in the same league as he was in his peak(26)

 

[GRASScaraz]

Sincaraz era>>> Fedal era

 

[Hitman]

Nope. You're comparing apples to oranges here. No way an old 34 years old player is in the same league as he was in his peak(26)

No I am not. I am showing double standards.

So are we just meant to take their word for it if they are of a certain age, and not if they are not of a certain age?

So actual form doesn't matter. Do you seriously think that Tsitsipas who once won the YEC which had Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Theim, Medvedev and Zverev in it, who also pushed Djokovic to five sets TWICE at RG in the semis in 2020 and the final in 2021, that was ranked well inside the top ten....is a worse player than the one who didn't even qualify for the YEC end of last season and lost in the first round of the last two slams? LOL

Even you know, trying to justify that he is better now, because of his age, and therefore it must be true is just reaching the bottom of the barrel.

So, was Wawrinka playing his best tennis before the age of 27 also?

 

[GabeT]

Wait, you think tsitsipas is at his peak??

 

[Hitman]

Wait, you think tsitsipas is at his peak??

Yes, and Hewitt must have been at the same level at 26, that he was at 20, 21, when he was back to back year ending number one, and was holding two slams at one point. Because age and stuff....

 

[GRASScaraz]

Wait, you think tsitsipas is at his peak??

He is, but the game has evolved

 

[Fedforever]

Apparently this is the first time two top 10 players have been beaten by teenagers in the same Grand Slam since.......Djokovic and Murray did it in Wimbledon 2006.

Always respect the people who work these things out!!

 

[Third Serve]

Tsitsipas is such an awful player lmao

Glad we’re all finally accepting this even if it took some a bit longer to come to that conclusion. I get it. I might be overrating him too if he was one of the main rivals of my favorite player the last few years.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Djokovic's main rival in 2021-2023 in Slams was obviously Medvedev (3 finals). Then it was a combination of yes Tsitsipas (2 finals), Alcaraz (final, SF), Berrettini (final, 2 QFs), Nadal (SF, QF), Zverev (SF, QF) and Sinner (SF, QF). So that's 7 different players right there that he played multiple times in Slams on his way to titles. Pretending it's Ruud and Kyrgios when they played once is fiction.

So when Djokovic beat Tsitsipas in a Slam final he was struggling but now when he loses in the 1st round he's at his peak? LOL. It's also obvious Tsitsipas is playing nowhere near the level now that he was in 2019-2021 no matter what he says, when we all know he doesn't even believe that.

In the slams he won, it’s Medvedev (2 finals), Tsitsipas (2 finals), Berrettini (final, QF), Ruud (final), Kyrgios (final). Alcaraz, Nadal, Sinner and Zverev, he only met once each before the final. So yes, there’s a case to be made Kyrgios and Ruud were his main competition in the slams he won.

Between Mallorca 2022 and Los Cabo’s 2023 with the AO right in the middle, Tsitsipas went 56-24 (70% win rate) with 0 titles as well as r1 and r3 slam losses. Yes, he was struggling. In 2024, he went 45-22 (67.2% win rate) with 1 m1000 as well as r2, r1 and r4 slam losses. It’s absolutely comparable. Tsitsipas dropped in the rankings because he stayed the same while the tour grew stronger and figured him out, not because he’s a worse player now than he was back then. He was losing to 18 yo Alcaraz as early as 2021. He was getting completely owned by Medvedev, and he was already on a 4 match losing streak to Djokovic when the RG21 final came around. Let’s please stop overrating Tsitsipas, whether 2019-2021 or otherwise.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Wait, you think tsitsipas is at his peak??

His words, not mine.

 

[NoleFam]

In the slams he won, it’s Medvedev (2 finals), Tsitsipas (2 finals), Berrettini (final, QF), Ruud (final), Kyrgios (final). Alcaraz, Nadal, Sinner and Zverev, he only met once each before the final. So yes, there’s a case to be made Kyrgios and Ruud were his main competition in the slams he won.

Between Mallorca 2022 and Los Cabo’s 2023 with the AO right in the middle, Tsitsipas went 56-24 (70% win rate) with 0 titles as well as r1 and r3 slam losses. Yes, he was struggling. In 2024, he went 45-22 (67.2% win rate) with 1 m1000 as well as r2, r1 and r4 slam losses. It’s absolutely comparable. Tsitsipas dropped in the rankings because he stayed the same while the tour grew stronger and figured him out, not because he’s a worse player now than he was back then. He was losing to 18 yo Alcaraz as early as 2021. He was getting completely owned by Medvedev, and he was already on a 4 match losing streak to Djokovic when the RG21 final came around. Let’s please stop overrating Tsitsipas, whether 2019-2021 or otherwise.

I've already been over it and you can twist it around however you like but it still isn't landing.

From January 2021-January 2023, Tsitsipas was 126-44 (74%) and 13-17 against the top 10. Since then from February 2023-January 2025, he was 85-47 (64%) and 4-14 against the top 10. He also hasn't made a SF of a Slam since AO 2023, something he did every year from 2019-2023. Anybody can cherrypick to suit their agenda. Yea he's definitely at his peak now and was struggling at AO 2023. Good call.

 

[fedfan24]

Tsitsipas, Ruud etc. These type of 90sgen clowns can no longer easily make slam finals. The free ride is over.

Zverev still has a chance with his elite serve + BH but he’s mentally weak and a known choker.

 

[fedfan24]

Djokovic's main rival in 2021-2023 in Slams was obviously Medvedev (3 finals). Then it was a combination of yes Tsitsipas (2 finals), Alcaraz (final, SF), Berrettini (final, 2 QFs), Nadal (SF, QF), Zverev (SF, QF) and Sinner (SF, QF). So that's 7 different players right there that he played multiple times in Slams on his way to titles. Pretending it's Ruud and Kyrgios when they played once is fiction.

So when Djokovic beat Tsitsipas in a Slam final he was struggling but now when he lost in the 1st round he's at his peak? LOL. It's obvious Tsitsipas is playing nowhere near the level now that he was in 2019-2021 no matter what he says, when we all know he doesn't even believe that.

21 AO - Zverev, Medvedev
21 RG - Nadal, Tsitsipas
21 W - Shapovalov, Berretini

22 W - Norrie, Kyrgios

23 AO - Tommy Paul, Tsitsipas
23 RG - injured Alcaraz (virtual W/O), Ruud
23 USO - Shelton, Medvedev


Best 2 out of QF-F stage in all Djokovic wins since 2021. Clowns in bold. 9 out of 14, and that’s me being generous calling 23 Medvedev a good opponent and a 20 whatever years old Alcaraz who could barely run after 2 sets. Astonishing number.

 

[Peglegg_94]

Tsitsipas and Ruud can be beaten by literally anyone on a hardcourt

 

[messiahrobins]

Fonseca d. Rublev
Michelsen d. Tsitsipas
Mensik d. Ruud

These guys are supposed to be at their peak, only 26/27 years old, and they’re being beaten at slams by a bunch of kids. None of the matches went to 5.

Federer sitting somewhere with a wink and nudge nudge one feels

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

I've already been over it and you can twist it around however you like but it still isn't landing.

From January 2021-January 2023, Tsitsipas was 126-44 (74%) and 13-17 against the top 10. Since then from February 2023-January 2025, he was 85-47 (63%) and 4-14 against the top 10. He also hasn't made a SF of a Slam since AO 2023, something he did every year from 2019-2023. Anybody can cherrypick to suit their agenda. Yea he's definitely at his peak now and good call.

You started this discussion focusing on the competition faced in slams Novak won, not slams he played in post 13. I didn’t twist, I just stuck to the original parameter. I get it though. If I were a Novak fan, I wouldn’t want to admit that Ruud, Kyrgios, Tsitsipas and Berretini were his main competition in his slam wins either.

I picked a sample period 6 months before AO23 and 6 months after AO23 since we were talking about the AO23 final. That’s not cherry picking that’s an appropriate sample to judge his overall form during the period, and it was absolutely comparable to his horrible 2024. While I agree he performed better in 2021, that doesn’t take into account how much the competition has heated up. Place Tsitsipas21 in 24, and he does nothing. No way he makes the RG final with his daddy Alcaraz around. He doesn’t beat Sinner at the AO or the WTF. He’s always been terrible at Wimb and USO so no difference there.

As for Tsitsipas being peak, those are his words, not mine. Take it up with him if you think it’s stupid.