Top players of the CIE are being exposed by next gen

Sputnik Bulgorov said:
Fonseca d. Rublev
Michelsen d. Tsitsipas
Mensik d. Ruud

These guys are supposed to be at their peak, only 26/27 years old, and they’re being beaten at slams by a bunch of kids. None of the matches went to 5.

EDIT: more CIE guys fall to next gen

Rune d. Berrettini
Tien d. Medvedev
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All of the years they had to play Federer, Nadal and Djokovic just simply wore them out physically and mentally.
 
Lleytonstation said:
It really is coming clear that the past 5-7 years has been a very weak pool of tennis players. But we all knew this already, no one thought Ruud, Tsits, Med, Berr, and the lot were actually any good.
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Erm, not sure about this one. The narrative a few years back was that they just needed their Phillipoussis for the floodgates to open. Old Djokodal were just too good.
 
Third Serve said:
That’s actually insane. And I don’t see a lot of those players losing to their peers. It’s even younger players who are taking it away from them.
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Except for Kyrgios, all of them lost to next gen players aged 19-21. And it’s not like they’re old - they’re all 26-28, so still prime. They probably have the slight age advantage over the teenagers in the group.
 
Their souls were already taken by Nadal and Djokovic, the kids are coming to bury their bodies.

dead-casket.gif
 
mike danny said:
Erm, not sure about this one. The narrative a few years back was that they just needed their Phillipoussis for the floodgates to open. Old Djokodal were just too good.
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And there's some truth to that. But the bigger picture is that none of them were a star in their own right, and collectively they weren't consistent enough to create a unified front. Has Novak ever played Tsitsipas and Zverev back-to-back in a major?
 
Third Serve said:
Not sure if I’d go that far but they are 100% the two worst generations of the Open Era. The only other contender is the group that came between Sampras and Federer, but even they produced players like Kuerten who were significantly better than Medvedev, Thiem, etc.
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Good point. Kafelnikov, Moya, and Kuerten are the only guys born between 72-79 to get a slam and Kuerten and Kafelnikov both got multiple. So far only Meddy and Thiem have gotten a slam out of the entire 90's.
 
Third Serve said:
Not sure if I’d go that far but they are 100% the two worst generations of the Open Era. The only other contender is the group that came between Sampras and Federer, but even they produced players like Kuerten who were significantly better than Medvedev, Thiem, etc.
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I'm guessing that you're referring to Moya, Kuerten, Scud, Haas as the group between Sampras and Fed.
 
Aabye5 said:
And there's some truth to that. But the bigger picture is that none of them were a star in their own right, and collectively they weren't consistent enough to create a unified front. Has Novak ever played Tsitsipas and Zverev back-to-back in a major?
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Maybe in general, but it was debunked very quickly when Med's slam win didn't open the floodgates for him.
 
mike danny said:
Maybe in general, but it was debunked very quickly when Med's slam win didn't open the floodgates for him.
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But that's why it's multi-layered. Novak and Rafa were strong, much like Fed. But if Sinner/Alcaraz of today had played them, they still would have been properly challenged. Medvedev alone wasn't enough. Heck, even Alcaraz alone against Djokovic isn't enough.

If Tsitsipas and Zverev had been carrying their share as consistently as Med, those draws would have looked very different.
 
Aabye5 said:
And there's some truth to that. But the bigger picture is that none of them were a star in their own right, and collectively they weren't consistent enough to create a unified front. Has Novak ever played Tsitsipas and Zverev back-to-back in a major?
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The lack of consistency is a big point against them that people overlook. Even old Novak was always going to be favored in one match against players of their caliber, but two back to back in the SF-F becomes a tough ask. Novak only had to deal with a tough SF-F combo a few times in 2021-2023, and went 1-2. He won RG 2021, but lost USO 2021 and Wimb 2023. Getting guys like Paul, Karatsev, Shelton, Norrie and Shapovalov in the SFs of slams is a huge advantage that saves energy, both physical and emotional.
 
Sputnik Bulgorov said:
The lack of consistency is a big point against them that people overlook. Even old Novak was always going to be favored in one match against players of their caliber, but two back to back in the SF-F becomes a tough ask. Novak only had to deal with a tough SF-F combo a few times in 2021-2023, and went 1-2. He won RG 2021, but lost USO 2021 and Wimb 2023. Getting guys like Paul, Karatsev, Shelton, Norrie and Shapovalov in the SFs of slams is a huge advantage that saves energy, both physical and emotional.
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Exactly. It's the combination that wears a player out.
 
socallefty said:
When it was more of a defensive sport, the older guys with their experience and greater consistency along with better decision making had an edge. Now the new kids with their lighter racquets and 130+ serves are making it a much more offensive sport - older players are toast except for the ageless one who struck a deal with aliens.
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Learner Tien is bringing defensive wall tennis back.
 
Gary Duane said:
Most players start to decline in return statistics after very close to age 25 and sometimes before that. That has not changed. Nadal peaked in clay in 2008. Djokovic peaked on hard court in 2011. Federer peaked around 2005 or 2006. Returning favors the young. Older players compensate by getting better on offense and mastering better strategies. The demise of aging players happens much faster when they don't have a great serve.
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Even serves tend to decline after age 25.

Not for karlovic, Isner, and Kandy, because height ages well.

But for explosive motions like Edberg and Roddick, peak serve prowess is early 20s.
 
duaneeo said:
That's not saying much, lol.
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Medvedev is the only one of his generation to beat both Alcaraz and Sinner in a Slam when they were ranked #1 and had recently won a Slam, not to mention beating Djokovic when he was #1 as well. Now that he's struggling I guess he's a clown like Tsitsipas though...
 
NoleFam said:
Medvedev is the only one of his generation to beat both Alcaraz and Sinner in a Slam when they were ranked #1 and had recently won a Slam, not to mention beating Djokovic when he was #1 as well. Now that he's struggling I guess he's a clown like Tsitsipas though....
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He is very inconsistent. This is fact. Sports value consistency.
 
ghostofMecir said:
Looking forward to this one. There’s a lot of things going against the learner here, but Medvedev has not played well, so you never know. A lot of money coming on Medvedev and I would not be surprised no matter happens, e.g., Medvedev beat down, Tien making it interesting, etc. One thing about learner is that he can get in a lot better shape than he is right now – when you look at him and there’s a lot of baby fat stuff on him and he can physically train himself to somewhat me for the fact that he’s never going to have a great serve.
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I first saw Tien watching highlights of the next gen finals, and he is the antithesis of the modern power game. Patient, creative tennis with lots of changes of pace and soft shots. He’s reminds me of Mannarino, but I didn’t think this was the type of game to succeed in the modern era. I thought Medvedev’s serve advantage would be too much for him to overcome, but he really delivered. I still think he’d face an uphill battle with power players like Fonseca, Alcaraz and Sinner in his generation, but hoping for the best for this kid!
 
NoleFam said:
I said he wasn't as consistent on those surfaces not that he wasn't a top player on them. He made two Wimbledon SFs in 2023 and 2024, and won Rome in 2023.
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He also was complete disasters on clay and lost in the 1st round like 6 times at the French. Other than the 2 SF he has been a disappointment at WC. Other than the 3 finals, he has been horrendous at AO, so lets not pretend like he is some consistent player.
 
Lleytonstation said:
He also was complete disasters on clay and lost in the 1st round like 6 times at the French. Other than the 2 SF he has been a disappointment at WC. Other than the 3 finals, he has been horrendous at AO, so lets not pretend like he is some consistent player.
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That's why I said he wasn't consistent on those surfaces. Other than the 3 finals, he's been horrendous at the AO? Dude that doesn't even make sense. Lol. He made 3/4 AO finals from 2021-2024, not to mention he was a few games away from the title twice.
 
NoleFam said:
That's why I said he wasn't consistent on those surfaces. Other than the 3 finals, he's been horrendous at the AO,? Dude that doesn't even make sense. Lol. He made 3/4 AO finals from 2021-2024.
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Sorry, but he is the exact opposite of consistent at AO.

He has lost in the 3rd and 2nd round in 2 of the past 3 years.... lol

Before 2021 he had not even reached the QF.
 
Lleytonstation said:
Sorry, but he is the exact opposite of consistent at AO.

He has lost in the 3rd and 2nd round in 2 of the past 3 years.... lol

Before 2021 he had not even reached the QF.
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If you make 3 out of 4 finals at a Slam, you're pretty darn consistent. Can't agree with you on that.

Medvedev has been in a slump since fall of last year. His recent loss is simply because he's not currently playing well. Korda was on fire in early 2023 as well, who beat him and almost beat Djokovic in Adelaide.

He didn't become a top player until 2019 when he lost to Djokovic in the 4th round and to Wawrinka in the 4th round the year after. He actually gave Djokovic his toughest match of the tournament in 2019.
 
NoleFam said:
If you make 3 out of 4 finals at a Slam, you're pretty darn consistent. Can't agree with you on that.

Medvedev has been in a slump since fall of last year. His recent loss is simply because he's not currently playing well. Korda was on fire early last year as well, who beat him and almost beat Djokovic in Adelaide.

He didn't become a top player until 2019 when he lost to Djokovic in the 4th round and to Wawrinka in the 4th round the year after. He actually gave Djokovic his toughest match of the tournament in 2019.
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I guess in your opinion. I just disagree. If my wife asked me to bring home something from the store, and I brought it home 2 out of 4 times that week.... well, she would be consistently mad.
 
Sputnik Bulgorov said:
The lack of consistency is a big point against them that people overlook. Even old Novak was always going to be favored in one match against players of their caliber, but two back to back in the SF-F becomes a tough ask. Novak only had to deal with a tough SF-F combo a few times in 2021-2023, and went 1-2. He won RG 2021, but lost USO 2021 and Wimb 2023. Getting guys like Paul, Karatsev, Shelton, Norrie and Shapovalov in the SFs of slams is a huge advantage that saves energy, both physical and emotional.
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While I agree, he did face Zverev in the quarters at the 2021 AO. So to me he is 2-2 when he faces 2 top opponents instead of 1-2.

But since 2017 he’s rarely gotten to face 2 top opponents in one slam.
 
NoleFam said:
Medvedev is the only one of his generation to beat both Alcaraz and Sinner in a Slam when they were ranked #1 and had recently won a Slam, not to mention beating Djokovic when he was #1 as well.
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He's the best player of his generation, and he's 1-5 in slam finals...with four of the losses to past-prime players in their middle 30s, one of the losses to a first-time slam finalist, and both losses to Djokovic in straight sets.

His slam mental weakness was shown even at the slam he 'won". Though he was up two sets and two breaks against a CYGS-pressured Nole playing the worst tennis of his life, Medvedev started cramping due to nerves! He almost did what he would do months later against Nadal at his worst slam...blow a 2-0 set lead. Luckily for him, Nole was just too bad and couldn't get that 2nd break in the 3rd.
 
mike danny said:
While I agree, he did face Zverev in the quarters at the 2021 AO. So to me he is 2-2 when he faces 2 top opponents instead of 1-2.

But since 2017 he’s rarely gotten to face 2 top opponents in one slam.
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It’s not the same physical and mental drain when it’s not back to back. Getting Karatsev in between the two matches is a big deal. The one time he actually did get Zverev and Med back to back, he was completely flat in the final and got crushed.
 
Jonas78 said:
Agreed on your second paragraph, we have to see how competetive the next gens of ATGs are in their 30s before we conclude.

Still, i think we see signs that the late Big3-era was an anomaly. As I said, players in their 30s in top20 has gone from 9 to 2 from 2019, which is considerable.

Slams are won by the top20, most by top5. I dont think its that relevant if Stan and/or Monfils can stay inside top1000 until they are 45, that doesnt say anything about peak age. And even late bloomer Stan won his last slam at "just" 31. Djokovic can provably decline considerably, but still be top100 for years.
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I’m not interested in “peak age.” I am interested in what age players can be decently good. So, to me, Monfils being competitive at 38 is highly relevant and in fact fascinating. No wonder we only agree on a few things when we are interested in different matters!

mike danny said:
Wouldn't say nothing, but it was a bit overblown. Players peaking in their 30's was even more ridiculous.

Yes, Med and Zeddy are above him. And his generation is these 2.
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Yes, agreed.
 
Fedforever said:
Someone pointed out that Fonseca has until Wimbledon 26 to be a teenage Grand Slam champion.

He could turn out to be a case of over-hyping but I don't think most of us would want to bet our mortgage on him not doing it.
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I’m optimistic about Fonseca’s future (I thought he had a chance of making the SFs here). Still, while I wouldn’t bet my mortgage on it, I would bet $100 (at even odds) on him not winning a slam as a teenager.
 
helterskelter said:
I’m not interested in “peak age.” I am interested in what age players can be decently good. So, to me, Monfils being competitive at 38 is highly relevant and in fact fascinating. No wonder we only agree on a few things when we are interested in different matters!



Yes, agreed.
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Thats fair :).

Players can obviosuly have longer careers for several reasons. Imo one of the most important is arthroscopic surgery, which all Big3 have had multiple times. This wasnt available to former players.

I guess also expectations is part of it? It wasnt normal to play until 37-38 years earlier, although for example both Sampras and Agassi probably could keep on playing for several more years. With the rise of Federer and Nadal, i think their slam winning days were over though.

So as players can and will have longer careers, its natural that the mean age in for example the top1000 will increase. What i dont find natural, is that the age when players win slams, or that the age of top10 or top20 will increase. Because to win slams or stay in top10, you generally need to be in your prime. It will be interesting to see what the future brings.

At least we have witnessed the biggest drop in the age of slam winners in history, when it went from Nadal/Djokovic and about 15 years down to Alcaraz/Sinner. We generally just skipped two generations; Nishikori-gen and Medvedev-gen.
 
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Hitman said:
No I am not. I am showing double standards.

So are we just meant to take their word for it if they are of a certain age, and not if they are not of a certain age?

So actual form doesn't matter. Do you seriously think that Tsitsipas who once won the YEC which had Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Theim, Medvedev and Zverev in it, who also pushed Djokovic to five sets TWICE at RG in the semis in 2020 and the final in 2021, that was ranked well inside the top ten....is a worse player than the one who didn't even qualify for the YEC end of last season and lost in the first round of the last two slams? LOL

Even you know, trying to justify that he is better now, because of his age, and therefore it must be true is just reaching the bottom of the barrel.

So, was Wawrinka playing his best tennis before the age of 27 also?
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Come on man.
Had Federer said he was at his best when he was 26 then I wouldn't have quoted you in first place. Comparing 26 to 34 years makes no sense since the former is at his peak/prime while the later is not. Anyone with a little tennis knowledge in his pinky knows 2007 Federer would decimated old 2015 Federer at any surface. We don't take Federer's words because it's crystal clear that he was BETTER at 26 than at 34(except some Nole fans only start watching tennis in 2011), Federer is wrong. However current 26 Tsisipas is at a golden age so we give him the benefit of the doubt, but not for a 34 Federer. NO, comparison between the two is not the same!

If Tsisipas at 34 in 2033 is going to say he's playing his best tennis, we all would've LOL at him, just like we did to Federer in 2015(and I'm a fan of him).

What does a 30 years old Wawrinka has anything to do with Federer? And you are judging Wawrinka playing at his best because he beat your boy at the USO and FO. No way Wawrinka wins anything in Federer era, he's not beating Federer at the USO, let alone Nadal at the FO. Try not to bring up random name player to to muddle the argument
 
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