topspin on hardcourts?

[yosh]

Hi, I play high school varsity tennis and was discussing stuff with my coach when he said something that I found interesting. He said that at my level, there was no reason to play with a western or high topspin style of play on hard courts. I personally play with a semi-western, but do you guys agree with my coach's assertion?

I think I understand what he meant, that the better players would be able to capitalize on the slower ball with their flatter more penetrating strokes.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that western grips don't have any place on hardcourts.

my 2 cents

 

[canadave]

Hi, I play high school varsity tennis and was discussing stuff with my coach when he said something that I found interesting. He said that at my level, there was no reason to play with a western or high topspin style of play on hard courts. I personally play with a semi-western, but do you guys agree with my coach's assertion?

I think I understand what he meant, that the better players would be able to capitalize on the slower ball with their flatter more penetrating strokes.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that western grips don't have any place on hardcourts.

my 2 cents

I agree with the general idea that better players may be able to capitalize on incoming slow spinny groundstrokes with more penetrating strokes, but I take issue with the idea that there is NO reason to play a topspin game on hardcourts. If your topspin game on hardcourts was very effective, then clearly it'd be the proper choice.

It may just be a debate over semantics, and perhaps something is lost in the paraphrasing translation from your coach to this message board. But I'm not sure I agree with that blanket statement that no one at your level has any reason to play that way.

 

[user92626]

What's your and your coach's idea of "high topspin style"? Does Federer or Djokovic play this "high topspin style"?

 

[sh@de]

The problem is it depends very much on how you define 'lots of topspin'. How much spin is a lot of topspin? My medium amount of spin could be your lots of spin, or the other way round...

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I would generally discourage students from adopting a full W grip for hardcourt play. Younger, shorter players will sometimes gravitate towards this extreme grip and may do very well with it. However, many of them will find it limiting as the get older & taller. This is not always the case tho'. With novice players, I'll encourage any Fh grip between an Eastern and a SW -- whichever is closest to what they find most natural.

Once a student has developed a solid, reliable Fh with a less extreme grip, I'd give them a green light if they wish to experiment with a full W grip. I wouldn't really encourage the latter tho'.

 

[Power Player]

I kind of see what he is saying. I have played some 5.0s where the kick goes right into their strike zone and they hit forehand winners off of it. So the whole time I have to go to their backhand.

But that being said with a western grip I can hit extremely hard. I do both SW and W and switch during a match.

If you throw western grip spin at a lot of player's backhands, they are going to make unforced errors even on hardcourt.

 

[dcwldcat]

Topspin is definitely worthwhile on hard courts against 4.0s. Just make sure you mix it up some.

 

[BU-Tennis]

I think your coach just meant that with your game right now, at the level you are playing, your shots would just sit up and have no penetration. I think everyone can agree that topspin works perfectly fine on hard courts, someone named Nadal does it with tremendous results, but even he has flattened his strokes out somewhat to get more penetration.

 

[fuzz nation]

I get the same impression as BU-T concerning what your coach told you. I've seen high school players with super spinny stokes that were really consistent, but they'd land up around the service line with not so much pace. That's fine against a less consistent opponent, but it's also valuable to penetrate the court so that you can at least maintain neutral rallies. Those short spinners can give half decent opponents a lot of extra chances to blow open an angle on you or attack the net.

Cracking the ball with a full western grip demands enough power to create that spin on the ball with enough pace to also hit it through the court. It sounds like you're at the level where you can hit with some velocity, but can keep the ball down on the court with moderate spin. Remember that if your contact with the ball is too angular, the ball just doesn't "go". Think of a slice serve that's all spin, but so slow that it barely gets over the net.

 

[yosh]

Well, I THINK he might have been addressing me in particular or my level or my game, although I am not sure. I learned with a semiwestern, then switched to eastern, and am back to semi. I tried playing against my coach with a western grip (after spending some time to get the hang of it of course) and I found it very difficult and tiring to keep the ball very deep. I have a new respect for nadal, hahhah. Anyway, my coach is a really old, experienced player. He beat me pretty thoroughly with his all continental grip game!

 

[fruitytennis1]

Well your talking about loopy slow topspin right. I have a friend who has an extremely high head swing speed, his balls go fast and when they bounce those things speed up and kick that thing causes so many people problems the first time they play him.

 

[The_Steak]

This is one of the dumbest things I have every heard. Just because you play with a western grip doesn't mean you hit slow loopy topspin. With western you can swing incredibly fast and the spin will keep the ball in resulting in a nice heavy ball. Also you can easily control the amount of spin you want on the ball.

 

[3lowdown]

another thread that rocks, because everyone here truly beleives that you cant hit flat with a western. You guys crack me up, you can get more spin than any other grips, and you can obviously still hit flat.

Sooooo..... saying that the western has no place on hardcourts is ignorant. The western grip can generate alot of spin, no brainer. Spin is used for angles/defense/consistency, (which is needed to play tennis at any level, and any court surface) and you can use that flat ball to penetrate the court for more point control/a weaker ball back/or when you need to pull the trigger down the line.

In my eyes the western grip is the best grip, why would you sacrifice the spin potential of this grip, with an eastern or sw. And dont forget you'll always have a flat ball, because to hit flat it doesnt matter what grip you have your still going to hit the ball flat.

 

[BullDogTennis]

lets look at pros 3lowdown, i know thats an "extreme" but the players that have the most success(for the most part) do not use super extreme grips, nadal MAY be the exception, but he in the past has not done THAT great on hardcourts. sure, if your playing clay mostly the extreme grip IS the way to go. and idk how good you are, but you dont even see nadal flattening out the ball very much with his western grip, so you nmust be like super awesome to be able to do that, so easily.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

another thread that rocks, because everyone here truly beleives that you cant hit flat with a western. You guys crack me up, you can get more spin than any other grips, and you can obviously still hit flat.

Sooooo..... saying that the western has no place on hardcourts is ignorant. The western grip can generate alot of spin, no brainer. Spin is used for angles/defense/consistency, (which is needed to play tennis at any level, and any court surface) and you can use that flat ball to penetrate the court for more point control/a weaker ball back/or when you need to pull the trigger down the line.

In my eyes the western grip is the best grip, why would you sacrifice the spin potential of this grip, with an eastern or sw. And dont forget you'll always have a flat ball, because to hit flat it doesnt matter what grip you have your still going to hit the ball flat.

Wow! Sounds like you're a major shareholder in Western Grips R Us.

While the Western Fh grip might be the best thing since sliced bread for you, it may not the best grip for most hardcourt players. I'm sure there's a good reason (or two) the Fh grips of choice in the modern game on hard courts is the SW followed by Eastern grips. This is not to say that some players haven't been able to make the full W work for them.

Many players find it awkward to hit flat or underspiin (for variety, for drop shots, for serve returns, etc). Many also find it awkward to hit low balls. A full W grip usually requires a contact point that is further forward than other grips. Not everyone is quick enough (RT or reflexes) or prepare early enough to pull this off consistently. I'm wondering if this isn't one of the reasons that Rafa employs so many reverse finishes -- with an extreme grip, he doesn't always have enough time to get the ball early enough for the preferred contact point. (Yes, reverse finishes are preferred in some cases).

To hit many of those penetrating shots you speak will require a fairly fast swing -- perhaps faster than many players can pull off consistently. If the W works well for you on hard courts, that's great. However, it might not be the grip for the masses.

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

Wow! Sounds like you're a major shareholder in Western Grips R Us.

AHA! So there is a place where I can buy Western Grips!

 

[3lowdown]

do we really need to go over the swing path for a flat swing with a western grip.
1) Use a western grip
2) Take racket back
3) Swing straight at the ball
4) Snap wrist over after contact has been made.

BTW every grip is awkward at first, even with the super dooper hard extreme western grip.

 

[skiracer55]

Think about it this way...

Well, I THINK he might have been addressing me in particular or my level or my game, although I am not sure. I learned with a semiwestern, then switched to eastern, and am back to semi. I tried playing against my coach with a western grip (after spending some time to get the hang of it of course) and I found it very difficult and tiring to keep the ball very deep. I have a new respect for nadal, hahhah. Anyway, my coach is a really old, experienced player. He beat me pretty thoroughly with his all continental grip game!

...as a bunch of other people have said, and as you say, above, for you right now, a full Western tends to produce helium balls that end up short and let your opponent whale on them. So a SW probably makes more sense for you right now, because you can get a modicum of spin and potentially better pace and penetration than with a full Western.

However, consider the following:

- Your game is not just your forehand, Western or whatever. A lot of times, when players are trying to upgrade their games, they fall into the trap of figuring that the problem is a single stroke. It's more holistic than that. Remember that the two most important strokes in the game, in this order, are the serve and the return. If you have a forcing serve that can open up the court and put you in control of the point, even a forehand that is less than perfect will probably work better than if you had a helium ball serve and a great forehand. So, yeah, do whatever you want with your forehand, but it's only in context of the rest of your game.

- Second, don't be a one-trick pony. I see players talking about "my SW forehand" in a very cookie-cutter way. Look at Andy Murray. He has a pretty stock modern SW forehand, and most of the time his rally ball is a moderate topspin, heavy pace ball hit through the court. But he can hit with extreme topspin as needed...to give an opponent who is getting in the groove another look, or to hit a wide, short angle. He can also, when run out of court, switch to a Continental grip and block a forehand back to get back in the point. So it's okay to work on a "base" shot for any of your strokes, but you need to have variety if you're going to progress significantly...

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

do we really need to go over the swing path for a flat swing with a western grip.
1) Use a western grip
2) Take racket back
3) Swing straight at the ball
4) Snap wrist over after contact has been made.

BTW every grip is awkward at first, even with the super dooper hard extreme western grip.

You'll just have to accept the burden of been one of the few enlightened people playing tennis. The rest of us are just too friggin' dense to get it. There are no perfect grips -- they all have trade offs. For most ppl, the tradeoffs using a Western grip on a hardcourt outweigh the bennies.

 

[raiden031]

As long as you hit the ball deep, then good topspin is very effective. Some of the better players I've been against just hit topspin shots deep and I can't really do a lot against it.

 

[teachestennis]

Tell him the facts!

Hi, I play high school varsity tennis and was discussing stuff with my coach when he said something that I found interesting. He said that at my level, there was no reason to play with a western or high topspin style of play on hard courts. I personally play with a semi-western, but do you guys agree with my coach's assertion?

I think I understand what he meant, that the better players would be able to capitalize on the slower ball with their flatter more penetrating strokes.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that western grips don't have any place on hardcourts.

my 2 cents

You high school coach should know that all the western grip players who are known as clay court players with huge topspin all come over here to our hard courts and even Wimbldon and stomp American players. Topspin wins over hitting the ball flat every time. There is no such thing as a flat ball at the pro level, pros rotate the ball with top, side, underspin, and then sometimes, when they see an opening, they hit it FLATTER, not flat.

quote from Pete Sampras on his amazing running forehand from Part 3 of the Real History of USA Tennis Instruction on www.moderntenniscoaches.com:

1995: New Playing Instructor Pete Sampras writes in September Tennis Magazine about a frame by frame analysis of his famous running forehand where he brings the racket up over the right shoulder (known today as the reverse forehand): "When I'm hitting well, I put just enough spin on the ball so it's a hard shot but I'm careful to control it. The actual whipping action of my arm, wrist, and contact is just natural--I can't explain it. When I have a bad day....it's often because I'm hitting too flat. If I'm having a bad day I'll try to hit more topspin." Contrast this with Robert Lansdorp's claims in 1992 that Sampras hit a flat ball consistently. In addtion, the Advanced Tennis Project would prove that Sampras hit with a lot of spin on his groundstrokes, much more than Andre Agassi.) Compare Sampras' response to Rafael Nadal, in the May 2005 Sports Illustrated, when Jon Wortheim tells Rafa, "People ask, 'Who did you model
your game after?'" Rafa's reply , "I never thought like that. I just played the way I was comfortable playing."

Tell your high school coach I'll given him the "bible of tennis" free which will blow his mind as to how to teach tennis. I've worked with some very famous coaches and talked extensively with Dr. Pete Fischer who coached Pete Sampras from 8 to 18 and Alexandra Stephenson from 8 to 17 and he confirms Pete hit naturally and with huge topspin.

Guga Kuerten won the 2000 World Championship beating Sampras and Agassi in the semis (Agassi in 3 straight sets) at the top of their game with huge looping topspin on fast hard courts and he is known as a clay court player. Juan Carlos Ferrero, another great clay court and winner of French Open has one of most extreme western grips in tennis and he has great success at Wimbledon and the US Open. Nadal hits with huge topspin and only has not had great success at the US Open yet because of wear and tear on hard courts due to his running down every ball as if his life depended on it. He is as Mark Carruthers like to say "John Rambo with a racquet." If he's healthy now, he will make a run. He's beaten Federer on hard courts several times.

Topspin is the safety net of all great players. All things equal, topspin beats flat every time. Why do you think Blake is so erratic? If he was coached by the topspin Master Coach himself, Oscar Wegner, I bet he would make the next US Open or Wimbledon final because he goes for the flat ball too much and is always just out with his shots. Federer hits huge top and sidespin and almost never hits flat. This has been proven by The Advanced Tennis Project.

Send me your coaches email to eztennisswing@yahoo.com and I'll give him a free book that has created more top juniors and top coaches than any other book in the world. Of have him browse around the MTM Forum articles about clay court players dominating tennis on www.moderntenniscoaches.com and those articles will show him the truth.

Your instincts are correct. Spin the ball, rotate it, and when you have some time, maybe hit it flatter, but don't think for a second pros hit a flat ball. Sampras serve was heavy because of the spin he put on it, even his first serve spun a ton. Just was hit a bit flatter and more forward.

 

[WildVolley]

I, too, am not an advocate of the full Western grip.

A lot of high school players tend to hold that grip, and they are definitely further under the handle than players like Nadal, who has a grip closer to a SW. Usually, these players hit with a very bent arm and a lot of spin. They tend to have trouble driving the ball and I've also noticed that the majority can't hit a volley. I don't know why that is, but that's what I've seen.

I think topspin is great, but I wouldn't teach a Western grip to someone starting the game.

 

[teachestennis]

I, too, am not an advocate of the full Western grip.

A lot of high school players tend to hold that grip, and they are definitely further under the handle than players like Nadal, who has a grip closer to a SW. Usually, these players hit with a very bent arm and a lot of spin. They tend to have trouble driving the ball and I've also noticed that the majority can't hit a volley. I don't know why that is, but that's what I've seen.

I think topspin is great, but I wouldn't teach a Western grip to someone starting the game.

All my western grip players volley well because NONE of them volleys with a western grip. They all volley with a contiental. When you move forward to the net, your left hand moves the racquet into the contintental. In Modern Tennis Methodology, we coaches teach to use the left hand as a gear shift. All grip changes are made with the left hand or th non dominant hand; we actually teach dynamic grips. I use SW, sometimes a western depending on what I want to do or what I'm feeling at the time. When I come in to take it right off the court I often switch to continental or even eastern given I hold the racket very loose and let court speed and my feel against the opponent's spin determine the best course of action.

Younger kids like the western grip because their hand is not strong enough to support hitting up on the ball so they often prefer to let the racket sit in the palm. Last I looked, there were a lot more western grips than anything in the 100 best players, and no one uses an eastern on groundstrokes anymore, so I start all my kids with a semi-western but if they have great success with a western, who am I to tell them how to grip the racket. What works best is what works best for each student.

 

[theenrighthouse]

In Modern Tennis Methodology, we coaches teach to use the left hand as a gear shift. (...) we actually teach dynamic grips.

This, to me, is really important to work on. Even if you hit your FH 75% of the time with a western grip, there will be instances (half-court game, low shots, short whippy cross court shots, volleys, defensive slices, drop shots, etc. etc.), where you should switch grips.

The simple truth of the matter is that whatever grip you play with, as long as you work hard on your game, you will be able to grow into a fine player.

 

[canuckfan72]

To the OP,

I play on my high school team as well and thats almost exactly the same thing my coach said to me. But that was a few months ago during school. Throughout the summer ive switched to the SW grip and am having tremendous success with it. with my Western grip i was hitting with alot of topspin but it was landing near the service line which was very easy to attack. Since switching to the SW i've been able to consistently hit deep, heavy topspin shots while also being able to attack and hit winners with a flatter shot.

thats just my experience. i also moved up an NTRP level.
Western Grip --> 3.5-4.0 NTRP
Semi-Western --> 4.0-4.5 NTRP

 

[Power Player]

All my western grip players volley well because NONE of them volleys with a western grip. They all volley with a contiental. When you move forward to the net, your left hand moves the racquet into the contintental. In Modern Tennis Methodology, we coaches teach to use the left hand as a gear shift. All grip changes are made with the left hand or th non dominant hand; we actually teach dynamic grips. I use SW, sometimes a western depending on what I want to do or what I'm feeling at the time. When I come in to take it right off the court I often switch to continental or even eastern given I hold the racket very loose and let court speed and my feel against the opponent's spin determine the best course of action.

Younger kids like the western grip because their hand is not strong enough to support hitting up on the ball so they often prefer to let the racket sit in the palm. Last I looked, there were a lot more western grips than anything in the 100 best players, and no one uses an eastern on groundstrokes anymore, so I start all my kids with a semi-western but if they have great success with a western, who am I to tell them how to grip the racket. What works best is what works best for each student.

I'd love to hear if or how you teach a more straight arm (nadal/agassi) 2 handed backhand because what you said about switching grips with the left hand is great. I always struggled with going from western to conti when I approach, and this just makes me think more about it then rushing out of control.

 

[yosh]

...as a bunch of other people have said, and as you say, above, for you right now, a full Western tends to produce helium balls that end up short and let your opponent whale on them. So a SW probably makes more sense for you right now, because you can get a modicum of spin and potentially better pace and penetration than with a full Western.

However, consider the following:

- Your game is not just your forehand, Western or whatever. A lot of times, when players are trying to upgrade their games, they fall into the trap of figuring that the problem is a single stroke. It's more holistic than that. Remember that the two most important strokes in the game, in this order, are the serve and the return. If you have a forcing serve that can open up the court and put you in control of the point, even a forehand that is less than perfect will probably work better than if you had a helium ball serve and a great forehand. So, yeah, do whatever you want with your forehand, but it's only in context of the rest of your game.

- Second, don't be a one-trick pony. I see players talking about "my SW forehand" in a very cookie-cutter way. Look at Andy Murray. He has a pretty stock modern SW forehand, and most of the time his rally ball is a moderate topspin, heavy pace ball hit through the court. But he can hit with extreme topspin as needed...to give an opponent who is getting in the groove another look, or to hit a wide, short angle. He can also, when run out of court, switch to a Continental grip and block a forehand back to get back in the point. So it's okay to work on a "base" shot for any of your strokes, but you need to have variety if you're going to progress significantly...

To be honest, my groundstrokes are the weak point of my game. I like to play very aggressively. My volleys are not always deep, but I am quick around the court and have good reaction time. I serve and volley about 60-70% of the time depending on how well I am playing, and chip and charge almost every returning point.

Perhaps this has hindered my groundstrokes, as I don't feel they are up to par.

Now, after watching the fuzzy yellow balls videos, I am going to work on my windshield wiper forehand (with a semiwestern grip). It would be nice to have a little more variety in my game, as everyone is recommending, and be comfortable behind the service line.

Great advice everyone, thanks!

Cheers

 

[skiracer55]

Okay, I got you...

To be honest, my groundstrokes are the weak point of my game. I like to play very aggressively. My volleys are not always deep, but I am quick around the court and have good reaction time. I serve and volley about 60-70% of the time depending on how well I am playing, and chip and charge almost every returning point.

Perhaps this has hindered my groundstrokes, as I don't feel they are up to par.

Now, after watching the fuzzy yellow balls videos, I am going to work on my windshield wiper forehand (with a semiwestern grip). It would be nice to have a little more variety in my game, as everyone is recommending, and be comfortable behind the service line.

Great advice everyone, thanks!

Cheers

...even Andy Roddick needs forehands and backhands, and can't just live and die by his serve alone. Sounds like you're on the right path with your FH, dig in a work on it...but don't forget your roots (S&V)...

 

[teachestennis]

I'd love to hear if or how you teach a more straight arm (nadal/agassi) 2 handed backhand because what you said about switching grips with the left hand is great. I always struggled with going from western to conti when I approach, and this just makes me think more about it then rushing out of control.

You are correct about the top pros often hitting with their top arm driving straight over the top of the ball. Women essentially have to hit a left handed forehand with the right hand along for the ride because of their chests. IF they try to pull the top arm extended straight inward, they hurt themselves. Oscar Wegner teaches to stalk the ball with the left hand on the 2HBH (on a one handed BH you stalk the ball by pointing the butt of the racket at the ball). As you move your left palm to find the ball (You can see Sharapova doing this, almost looking over the tip of the racket on her 2HBH with her racket in front of her until the ball is very close) your right hand moves naturally into the contintental grip as you stalk the ball. If you have the latest issue of Tennis Magazine, the inside back cover shows 16 women all hitting 2HBHs with the racket touching the ball very close to their bodies, not a single one is way out in front, whereas the men will find the ball and pull across it, almost as if they were catching it with their strings, Safin used to amaze me in his prime with his 2HBH.

Keep in mind Nadal and many top pros sharply torque their two handed BH by pushing down with the heel of their lower hand and pulling up at the same time with the pad below the index finger of their top hand. Oscar demonstrates this on the Advanced Techniques DVD with Randy Ardenfriend, who hits exactly like Agassi. Try this if you haven't. It's very effective and many players think they are snapping their wrist when in actuality they are simply torquing with their hands moving in opposite directions.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

... In Modern Tennis Methodology, we coaches teach to use the left hand as a gear shift. All grip changes are made with the left hand or th non dominant hand; we actually teach dynamic grips. I use SW, sometimes a western depending on what I want to do or what I'm feeling at the time. When I come in to take it right off the court I often switch to continental or even eastern given I hold the racket very loose and let court speed and my feel against the opponent's spin determine the best course of action.

Not heard the terminology, "dynamic grips", used before. Is this an Oscar Wegner concept? Altho' I am not a Wegner-ite, I believe that I use this same concept (if I understand the terminology correctly).

For me, the idea came quite while ago from my badminton experience. For badminton, I use a multitude of grips -- not just 2 or 3. I had so much success with this that I decided to start employing it to my tennis groundtrokes. For my BH g'strokes, I employ 3 different grips (2 different grips for my 1-hnaded shots). For my FH g'strokes, I primarily use 1 or 2 grips but may very well be using 3 or more different grips at times. Some of the grip changes are subtle while others are not.

Perhaps you could discuss this concept a bit more.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ I just read some of your other posts and noticed that you do reference Oscar Wegner. Not a great fan of every thing that Oscar has to say, but I do not dismiss all of his ideas out of hand. Am still interested in hearing more about the dynamic grips concept.

 

[Power Player]

Keep in mind Nadal and many top pros sharply torque their two handed BH by pushing down with the heel of their lower hand and pulling up at the same time with the pad below the index finger of their top hand. Oscar demonstrates this on the Advanced Techniques DVD with Randy Ardenfriend, who hits exactly like Agassi. Try this if you haven't. It's very effective and many players think they are snapping their wrist when in actuality they are simply torquing with their hands moving in opposite directions.

very interesting..i am not even totally grasping that..lol. It is basically the last stage for to get down because I would imagine that gets great topspin on the ball.

I do a full shoulder turn and the racquet points a little up. Then I drop it and do a real low to high swing with full extension as you described. So the part where I drop the racquet is what I have to nail down consistently so the ball does not fly on me.

Are there ways to practice this concept?

 

[3lowdown]

so the western's downside is that it is hard to hit flat for most. Is this right? But if the flat ball came pretty natural to a player with a western, is this the grip for them?

Is the western the best grip if the person wielding this grip can hit the flat ball with this grip?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Maybe, maybe not. How are you with hitting low balls? Hitting deep? Hitting with variety? Can you easily adjust your grip to hit underspin (for variety or for drop shots)?

 

[teachestennis]

^ I just read some of your other posts and noticed that you do reference Oscar Wegner. Not a great fan of every thing that Oscar has to say, but I do not dismiss all of his ideas out of hand. Am still interested in hearing more about the dynamic grips concept.

Oscar's role in tennis is very much misunderstood and I suspect you do not the truth of what he does or his real contributions. I don't follow Oscar; I follow his results. FYI, I have tried every teaching method on court in 30 years and have worked with every level of player up to satellite tour players. I know players and coaches who have worked with Braden, Bollettieri, and Macci, and then when they stand on the court with OScar, they realize why Oscar is the "man" who tied it all together in one simple teaching system that works for the greatest number of people on earth. Oscar believes that tennis should be taught by feel and not through mechanics, that there are certain biomechanical techniques that allow a person to maximize their athletic potential and that his job is to clean up misconceptions such as "hitting through the target line" which harms many more students than it helps. If you haven't read the History of Tennis on www.moderntenniscoaches.com, it might help you understand Oscar's real role. If you don't think the Russians aren't dominating tennis because they use Oscar's system, then read the Spartak article on there and the quote from Petrova's coach. Two Russian tennis academies told me through emails they are shocked the USA resists Oscar and one told me they now understand why the USA has trouble developing tennis players. I'm glad coaches resist Oscar, makes me look better on court when I get every single player to hit better and feel better about their game.

Oscar is the one person who has been proven over time to be correct again and again since his Spanish juniors first caught the world's attention in 1973 and today everyone is swinging per the way Oscar teaches. If you don't think the USPTA doing away with conventional teaching was influenced by Oscar hammering away at them, you might want to look at the truth. Russian spends 1/1000th of what the USA spends on junior development. They don't even board their best players and let them play full time as juniors. REad the truth on moderntenniscoaches.com. We keep teaching tennis the same way we have been, we'll continue to get the same results. Serbia didn't even have tennis courts enough so their juniors had to play in bombed out swimming pools and they kick our butts. Enough of my rant.

I like what you said about dynamic grips. YOu are correct, in MTM we hold the racket very loose (Braden and Groppel and other "experts" for years said hold it as tight as possible, I quote them exactly in the History section) because we use the butt and the edge as the source of power. In MTM we teach to lead with the edge and hit below the sweet spot or closer to the trailing edge which explains the Querrey pic below.

At 45, I was a 3.5 player with severe tennis elbow and a washed up tennis coach. At 48, I am hitting 6.0 ground strokes with a pro player and beating 5.0 players regularly. Since I started teaching MTM exclusively per the DVDs and book, I've never had a student not think my lesson was the best they ever had versus any conventional coach, and more than a few of my students paid Braden, Macci, and one even took a $700 an hour lesson from Nick and all said MTM was better. So excuse my loyalty. I would take ten beginners and put them my results on court in two hours up against any coach who did not teach MTM in the entire USA and allow the tennis channel to publish the results. Oscar would do that in a second against any coach in the world, including his own coaches. Tennisone.com didn't declare about Oscar "History Proved Him Right" because their coaches all loved Oscar. They looked at the evidence.

Anyway, the grip adjusts itself depending one what you need to do. What coach would allow a student to not be able to hit low shots? I know that happened when I taught the old ways, but with MTM, we use the left hand to make small changes, even on the backhand volleys with a continental grip, small changes appear oftentimes at the heel of the hand, I used SW and then if I'm on a slow court and hitting high balls, I might move more western. OScar encourages anything but continental and eastern on the FH and allows the racket to move so loosely it's almost scary.

This is usually not seen by the naked eye. I waited five years to find this pic proving what happens on nearly all great shots which I first saw on the famous video of Agassi on the Advanced Tennis Project. I also have Safina doing it also and it happens a lot, even with little kids who play per MTM.

On the 2HBH, you are correct, the "torque" is deadly for topspin. I even teach this to beginners sometimes, how to slam the right hand heel down while pullling up with the left hand index pad and you can do this through the air and hear the "whoosh" difference. Remember to approach the ball slowly with your backswing, cup that right wrist severely if you need to get the racket head lower, and then move across the ball torqueing the edge and you'll hit like a pro. Tennis is much more simple than you realize.

 

[WildVolley]

This is usually not seen by the naked eye. I waited five years to find this pic proving what happens on nearly all great shots which I first saw on the famous video of Agassi on the Advanced Tennis Project. I also have Safina doing it also and it happens a lot, even with little kids who play per MTM.

Are you saying the racket twists like that on "nearly all great shots"?

The pros have that happen every once in a while, as most of the video will show, but usually the racket doesn't flop over or twist that much in the grip. It does give an idea of how loosely the pros hold the grip. There are a number of videos of Federer in very slow motion that will show some twisting after/during contact due to his loose grip. But most times the movement is not that great.

 

[Bilbo]

The biggest and most powerful forehands of today's game are hit with the western grip...

Soderling, Nadal, Verdasco, Gonzalez (?)

And, if you are still unsure about the POWER of topspin... watch Alberto Berasategui hit with the Hawaiian grip (the grip i use). The guy had one of the top forehands of the 90's when on. As a matter of fact, Agassi himself said Alberto had one of the toughest forehands to handle on tour... on ANY surface.

 

[Bilbo]

look at the extremity of this grip used by Justin Shane, a junior ranked 7 in the nation for the class of 2010 by tennis recruiting.net. His forehand is his weapon, and it took him to the 5th round of kalamazoo.

This grip is easily a full western, if not a hawaiian, and this fella is 6 foot 5! With an extreme Western Grip!

 

[WildVolley]

The biggest and most powerful forehands of today's game are hit with the western grip...

Soderling, Nadal, Verdasco, Gonzalez (?)

And, if you are still unsure about the POWER of topspin... watch Alberto Berasategui hit with the Hawaiian grip (the grip i use). The guy had one of the top forehands of the 90's when on. As a matter of fact, Agassi himself said Alberto had one of the toughest forehands to handle on tour... on ANY surface.

It's hard to identify perfectly where a pro holds on the racket, even with high speed video, but in the video (and in person) Nadal holds a strong semi-western that sometimes seems to tend toward a Western grip. Gonzalez holds a semi-western with his knuckle on the 4th bevel, and Verdasco also seems to hold similar grip.

Most of the High School players who use a Western grip seem to get their index knuckle all the way under the grip on the 5th bevel, which is more extreme than the players you've listed. (Actually, I haven't studied Soderling's grip at all.)

 

[Bilbo]

It's hard to identify perfectly where a pro holds on the racket, even with high speed video, but in the video (and in person) Nadal holds a strong semi-western that sometimes seems to tend toward a Western grip. Gonzalez holds a semi-western with his knuckle on the 4th bevel, and Verdasco also seems to hold similar grip.

Most of the High School players who use a Western grip seem to get their index knuckle all the way under the grip on the 5th bevel, which is more extreme than the players you've listed. (Actually, I haven't studied Soderling's grip at all.)

While i do agree that it is hard to spot the grip used by touring pros, and any player while watching them play. However, ive spotted the players on OUR level... which are United States players in our age group. Like i pointed out with my earlier picture of justin shane, he CLEARLY uses a FULL western, if not slightly more extreme than a western, and it seems to work very well for him as his groundstrokes are what he's known for. I will post some other pictures of top high schoolers who use extreme grips. This should prove that there is no RIGHT or WRONG way to hold the racket. With good practice and dedication, success can be achieved with any grip.

 

[teachestennis]

Quote: "Are you saying the racket twists like that on "nearly all great shots"?

The pros have that happen every once in a while, as most of the video will show, but usually the racket doesn't flop over or twist that much in the grip. It does give an idea of how loosely the pros hold the grip. There are a number of videos of Federer in very slow motion that will show some twisting after/during contact due to his loose grip. But most times the movement is not that great."

Answer: That is true, it does not always happen, but it happens more than you think, especially for the better players. It's known as a "flutter" and happens because the ball hits the bottom part of the strings which causes the racket to come over the top of the ball but they are moving so fast upward that it recovers by itself. I have seen it on film also, but keep in mind even on film, it's hard to see because it happens so fast unless you see it on super slo mo. I've been able to find pics of rackets parallel to the ground, but this was first one with the ball directly still on the strings, something Braden, Ray Brown, and Groppel deny would happen because they claim the ball only stays on the strings 3/1000ths of a second and this idea of "massaging" the ball through "feel" that Oscar teaches is bogus. It never occurred to them the signal is not "felt" by the brain, but by sensory mechanisms not easily measured by science.

That's why Oscar teaches you to "touch" the ball and never try to "hit" it, you actually "push" the ball more than you hit it, which increases feel, power, and control by connecting the hand to the larger muscles in the body. The tighter the grip, the more tension and less "connection" to the large muscle grips.

 

[aptennis91]

Quote: "Are you saying the racket twists like that on "nearly all great shots"?

The pros have that happen every once in a while, as most of the video will show, but usually the racket doesn't flop over or twist that much in the grip. It does give an idea of how loosely the pros hold the grip. There are a number of videos of Federer in very slow motion that will show some twisting after/during contact due to his loose grip. But most times the movement is not that great."

Answer: That is true, it does not always happen, but it happens more than you think, especially for the better players. It's known as a "flutter" and happens because the ball hits the bottom part of the strings which causes the racket to come over the top of the ball but they are moving so fast upward that it recovers by itself. I have seen it on film also, but keep in mind even on film, it's hard to see because it happens so fast unless you see it on super slo mo. I've been able to find pics of rackets parallel to the ground, but this was first one with the ball directly still on the strings, something Braden, Ray Brown, and Groppel deny would happen because they claim the ball only stays on the strings 3/1000ths of a second and this idea of "massaging" the ball through "feel" that Oscar teaches is bogus. It never occurred to them the signal is not "felt" by the brain, but by sensory mechanisms not easily measured by science.

That's why Oscar teaches you to "touch" the ball and never try to "hit" it, you actually "push" the ball more than you hit it, which increases feel, power, and control by connecting the hand to the larger muscles in the body. The tighter the grip, the more tension and less "connection" to the large muscle grips.

I tried to do this and the grip kept moving in my hand. I need a new overgrip, but it was making my shot really unstable and fly up.. How should I keep the grip loose, but keep it stable enough?

 

[chico9166]

Oscar's role in tennis is very much misunderstood and I suspect you do not the truth of what he does or his real contributions. I don't follow Oscar; I follow his results. FYI, I have tried every teaching method on court in 30 years and have worked with every level of player up to satellite tour players. I know players and coaches who have worked with Braden, Bollettieri, and Macci, and then when they stand on the court with OScar, they realize why Oscar is the "man" who tied it all together in one simple teaching system that works for the greatest number of people on earth. Oscar believes that tennis should be taught by feel and not through mechanics, that there are certain biomechanical techniques that allow a person to maximize their athletic potential and that his job is to clean up misconceptions such as "hitting through the target line" which harms many more students than it helps. If you haven't read the History of Tennis on www.moderntenniscoaches.com, it might help you understand Oscar's real role. If you don't think the Russians aren't dominating tennis because they use Oscar's system, then read the Spartak article on there and the quote from Petrova's coach. Two Russian tennis academies told me through emails they are shocked the USA resists Oscar and one told me they now understand why the USA has trouble developing tennis players. I'm glad coaches resist Oscar, makes me look better on court when I get every single player to hit better and feel better about their game.

Oscar is the one person who has been proven over time to be correct again and again since his Spanish juniors first caught the world's attention in 1973 and today everyone is swinging per the way Oscar teaches. If you don't think the USPTA doing away with conventional teaching was influenced by Oscar hammering away at them, you might want to look at the truth. Russian spends 1/1000th of what the USA spends on junior development. They don't even board their best players and let them play full time as juniors. REad the truth on moderntenniscoaches.com. We keep teaching tennis the same way we have been, we'll continue to get the same results. Serbia didn't even have tennis courts enough so their juniors had to play in bombed out swimming pools and they kick our butts. Enough of my rant.

I like what you said about dynamic grips. YOu are correct, in MTM we hold the racket very loose (Braden and Groppel and other "experts" for years said hold it as tight as possible, I quote them exactly in the History section) because we use the butt and the edge as the source of power. In MTM we teach to lead with the edge and hit below the sweet spot or closer to the trailing edge which explains the Querrey pic below.

At 45, I was a 3.5 player with severe tennis elbow and a washed up tennis coach. At 48, I am hitting 6.0 ground strokes with a pro player and beating 5.0 players regularly. Since I started teaching MTM exclusively per the DVDs and book, I've never had a student not think my lesson was the best they ever had versus any conventional coach, and more than a few of my students paid Braden, Macci, and one even took a $700 an hour lesson from Nick and all said MTM was better. So excuse my loyalty. I would take ten beginners and put them my results on court in two hours up against any coach who did not teach MTM in the entire USA and allow the tennis channel to publish the results. Oscar would do that in a second against any coach in the world, including his own coaches. Tennisone.com didn't declare about Oscar "History Proved Him Right" because their coaches all loved Oscar. They looked at the evidence.

Anyway, the grip adjusts itself depending one what you need to do. What coach would allow a student to not be able to hit low shots? I know that happened when I taught the old ways, but with MTM, we use the left hand to make small changes, even on the backhand volleys with a continental grip, small changes appear oftentimes at the heel of the hand, I used SW and then if I'm on a slow court and hitting high balls, I might move more western. OScar encourages anything but continental and eastern on the FH and allows the racket to move so loosely it's almost scary.

This is usually not seen by the naked eye. I waited five years to find this pic proving what happens on nearly all great shots which I first saw on the famous video of Agassi on the Advanced Tennis Project. I also have Safina doing it also and it happens a lot, even with little kids who play per MTM.

On the 2HBH, you are correct, the "torque" is deadly for topspin. I even teach this to beginners sometimes, how to slam the right hand heel down while pullling up with the left hand index pad and you can do this through the air and hear the "whoosh" difference. Remember to approach the ball slowly with your backswing, cup that right wrist severely if you need to get the racket head lower, and then move across the ball torqueing the edge and you'll hit like a pro. Tennis is much more simple than you realize.

Look, I'm about as irreverant of a tennis pro as there is. Have never been a big fan of the USTA, and certainly don't follow all their instructional tenents. I was teaching more open stance, sit and lift type of forehands back in the late 80"s when people were telling me I was crazy. I teach what I teach based on my experience, what I see, and the thoughts of others that i find have merit. I like alot of what Oscar says. And I do believe he has not received enough credit for his insights.

But it is not hard to understand why, when one reads your posts. It's typical of his disciples. The outlandish claims, the incredible arrogance, and the absoulute dismissal of others in the teaching profession, rubs people the wrong way----- and it is wrong.

Please do not turn this forum, into a 2-o'clock-in-the-morning infomercial, in order to sell DVD's. You are doing Oscar a disservice. Let his work, and your work, stand on it's own merits.

I, for one, am interested in what you have to say, but geez, give me a break already with the lectures, history lessons, unproven claims, and all knowing attitude.

 

[teachestennis]

I apologize for a sense of outrage, but as a 30 year teach pro, when your superiors in the USTA, USPTA, and PTR all tell you tennis is best played one way, and you trust them and watch the game lose twenty million players, and then you find out it's best played another way, natural mechanics, generate maximum force with efficient input of effort, and that it's a lot more simple than people and coaches were ever led to believe, that accounts for my indignation. One player receives contradictory advice. One lady here is 3.5 after five years of lessons? Tennis is not that difficult in my experience with MTM.

The History of Tennis is just to set the record straight. Open stance was used 100 years ago. It was just discouraged by the alphabet soups. In 1975 entry on History of USA Tennis Instruction Part 1, you will see the powers that be attacking and telling everyone in Tennis Magazine that the "most lethal topspin forehand in the last 35 years is WRONG and a mechanical and cramped style. The FH looks exactly like Federer's. Until Jimmy Arias' father taught him the same forehand attacked by Tennis Magazine, no USA pro exisited as a model for Courier and others to learn from despite what the coaches were teaching. I make no outlandish claims. My students speak for me on www.ez-tennis.com. I just want to make people aware that none of this is rocket science and why not source the original guy who has been teaching it since 1968 because who over time can you trust to always give you the simplest way to learn tennis?

I read dozens of other coaches stuff aslo because I'm writing a book on Tennis Instruction History. I have to be careful what I claim because it's easier to attack and tear down rather than test the evidence and look at the facts. My point is one piece of false data can ruin a tennis swing. Tennis is filled with complicated theories and ideas, and you can't even read tennisone.com without one guy claiming one thing and the next guy claiming the opposite.

We're all on here trying to help others such as Cindysphinx and aptennis91. I get nothing monetarily. I have no DVDs to sell and I offer the History of Tennis free on www.moderntenniscoaches.com for examination and assessment because I want to make sure I get my facts straight before I put it all in a book. Tennis is filled with revisionist history; Nicky B. finally admitted in 2008 at the USPTA convention he now teaches open stance to beginners. Duh! For ten years during the 80s, he was the only prominent coach in the USA teaching the wrap finish which is a signature of modern play after he observed Arias doing it. He didn't teach it to Arias, he simply realized like Oscar had back in 1968 this might be the wave of the future (Oscar modeled his MTM on Manuel Santana's FH...he didn't invent it) given the Spanish were already showcasing it and players all over were copying other players best strokes. But he could never help Arias regain his forehand after Jimmy got mono.

Have to go teach tennis for six hours so I hope you forgive me for being passionate and insisting on the facts. I make no claims I can't back up.

Those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it.

 

[teachestennis]

I tried to do this and the grip kept moving in my hand. I need a new overgrip, but it was making my shot really unstable and fly up.. How should I keep the grip loose, but keep it stable enough?

This will happen naturally after you learn to find the ball slowly and hit up and across with maximum acceleration after you bend the arm. You approach the ball with your palm facing down while the butt of the racket will be pointing at the ball (you see Federer doing this in pics perfectly). It looks like you are going to hit the ball with the butt of the racket, your palm is face down to the ground, and then you lift up and across quickly. You won't be able to see it when it happens but you can feel it.

Gotta run, I forgot you needed an answer and I can't get back on all day. don't force it, it will happen once you find the ball slowly, then rip across the ball, never through the target line. I promise.

 

[WildVolley]

teachestennis,

You do need to be careful about what you claim, because you seemed to suggest an extreme "flutter" was common on great shots and it isn't.

The big modern breakthrough in instruction is high speed video, which is now available to the masses through casio cameras. Today, a lot of serious tennis players are spending time watching video of the pros hit. While this doesn't settle all questions, it allows for a lot of monkey see - monkey do that wasn't possible in the past.

I think a lot of the descriptions of how to hit are going to fall to visual models of how to hit. I've never gotten much benefit from descriptions like "push", "massage", "lift" the ball. Careful study of video, when described by someone who understands what is happening I find much more useful.

 

[aptennis91]

This will happen naturally after you learn to find the ball slowly and hit up and across with maximum acceleration after you bend the arm. You approach the ball with your palm facing down while the butt of the racket will be pointing at the ball (you see Federer doing this in pics perfectly). It looks like you are going to hit the ball with the butt of the racket, your palm is face down to the ground, and then you lift up and across quickly. You won't be able to see it when it happens but you can feel it.

Gotta run, I forgot you needed an answer and I can't get back on all day. don't force it, it will happen once you find the ball slowly, then rip across the ball, never through the target line. I promise.

Do you have any pictures? I'm having trouble visualizing the butt cap thing..

 

[Power Player]

I have done the butt cap thing and started using heavy topspin in the late 80s as a young kid. That really makes a difference. My spin has evolved to the point where it gives people a lot of problems on the forehand. I need to get the backhand there too. I will try and practice torquing the backhand today and see if that helps. I am 85% there when it comes to getting my backhand where I want it.

The bent arm left handed dominant backhand really weakened my game. I am glad to be away from that again because it is not nearly as good as the straight arm one.

 

[teachestennis]

teachestennis,

You do need to be careful about what you claim, because you seemed to suggest an extreme "flutter" was common on great shots and it isn't.

The big modern breakthrough in instruction is high speed video, which is now available to the masses through casio cameras. Today, a lot of serious tennis players are spending time watching video of the pros hit. While this doesn't settle all questions, it allows for a lot of monkey see - monkey do that wasn't possible in the past.

I think a lot of the descriptions of how to hit are going to fall to visual models of how to hit. I've never gotten much benefit from descriptions like "push", "massage", "lift" the ball. Careful study of video, when described by someone who understands what is happening I find much more useful.

You are correct that careful study of the pros techniques is needed, but the problem is most grassroots pros don't have a clue as to what the pros are doing. Even the announcers usually don't have a clue. I just got back from lessons all day and am looking at a tape of today's ladies action and they just showed Dementieva holding both hands on the racket in front of her, "stalking' or tracking the ball and not taking her racket back until the ball bounces, I just checked it in slo mo and she "waits" beautifully. Yet Mary Carillo will talk about how early the pros get their racket back, when the exact opposite is true.

The flutter does occur more than you think, because pros hit their best shots nearer the trailing edge. You will see on super slo mo the racket edge closed over the top half of the ball, almost as if they are trying to hit the ball with their top edge. During the Australian, only Cliff Drysdale (a big fan of Oscar's and I talked with Cliff personally about MTM) had a clue as to why that happens as Cahill and Carillo were both suprised Verdaso and Nadal repeated hit the FH's nearer the frame and Cahill is actually a great tennis coach.

I watched the pros for years but the USPTA was telling me the pros were super gifted and had special talents when the truth is most of them are just normal everyday people who develop through great technique and determination a high degree of athletic prowess. Spadea's dad was a piano teacher and his wife was a Columbian lady and there were no athletes in the family whatsoever and yet they produced three USTa tennis champions (the two daughters when to law school instead of turning pro). Vince was a little overweight kid when Oscar started teaching him in 1981. If you haven't read "The Talent Code: Talent isn't Born, It's Made. Here's How," which is a current best seller that just came out a couple months ago, it explains a lot of how great athletes are made and shows what John Wooden, Spartak Tennis Academy (with one rundown indoor court producing more top players than the entire USA from just normal kids, not special athletes...sounds like an exaggeration, doesn't it?) Linda Septien, and the Greatest Bank Robber in History have in common. I have a special article on Spartak from the NY Times for you to read in http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18

Check this video out aptennis91, it's from tennisone.com and it shows how Federer's head moves to the right while his hand is pulling to his left (the power of modern tennis is pulling across the ball from right to left). Watch his head move in relation to the letters above his head in Pan Pacific and watch how he moves to the right long after he's hit the ball. This is typical, by the way for him.

Stop the video right before he hits and then you'll hit the fast forward and go frame by frame and see his butt pointing at the ball before he pulls across the ball to the left.

In MTM, we teach to lay back the wrist by placing the butt in the belly button before you start your forehand. This lays back the wrist and sets the angle of the wrist. The Advanced Tennis Project proved the wrist plays virtually no role in modern tennis. Start with the butt in the belly button, then you take the racket back, not your arm, and you will see the butt pointing at the net and the palm down. Go to any set of tennis photos and you will see this.

Video watching doesn't work if you have false data or a misunderstanding of what is really going on. If you think the pros hit through the target line like I taught for 25 years, you won't see the pros hitting a windshield wiper by pulling the strings across the ball or properly perceive how it's done unless you are highly visual and extremely coordinated and thus can copy anything easily. That is how conventional tennis survives to this day. Some people can hit a tennis ball any way but they will hit a ceiling and never progress past a certain point.. The masses can only hit it the most efficient way, which is open stance with the windshield wiper.

Next question. I hope you read the NY Times Spartak article I linked to. It's free and I just point out the facts.

 

[tlm]

Sure is nice to hear some good things about oscar wegner. I tried to push his methods on this site years ago+ all i heard was a lot of resentment from the oldschool die hards on this site.

You mentioned about making take back after the bounce, i was ridiculed relentlessly for suggesting this. Even though there is much video proof of this available.

It always amazed me that this discussion board would knock someone like oscar so badly.There are so many that are hard headed+ can not admit that there are better ways to learn the game than the way they were taught back in the day.