topspin on hardcourts?

Sure is nice to hear some good things about oscar wegner. I tried to push his methods on this site years ago+ all i heard was a lot of resentment from the oldschool die hards on this site.

You mentioned about making take back after the bounce, i was ridiculed relentlessly for suggesting this. Even though there is much video proof of this available.

It always amazed me that this discussion board would knock someone like oscar so badly.There are so many that are hard headed+ can not admit that there are better ways to learn the game than the way they were taught back in the day.

I know what you mean about Oscar, believe me. Tennis is so simple and teaching footwork to beginners destroys them in my long experience. People would be shocked if they knew how many great juniors are raised on MTM such as Morgan Mays who lost in quarters at USTA 16 and unders today in 3 sets but is barely 15, Kristi Ahn, who lost 3 and 3 to Safina at Open last years while 15, and a host of others all around the world and dotting the USA rankings, Strong Kirchheimer #2 USTA as a 12 year old, and many more. Interesting that every pro today plays the way Oscar advocates in his 1989 book. Braden told a bunch of us coaches in the early '90s to be very skeptical of Oscar's simplicity claims when the truth is Braden didn't have the slightest clue about how to grow tennis or teach a method that would be successful and now they all claim to have figured it out when one guy has been saying the same thing for forty years. Braden's ideas on genetic testing to find the best athletes are scary. Macci is thinking along the same lines when I don't believe Serbia, Croatia, or Russia has all the great thoroughbreds, they just have better technique, they don't even juniors to be taught closed stance forehands in Russia and we see the results in the rankings. Anyone can teach tennis to a great athlete, but it takes a great technique to make a great coach in the long run. The History of Tennis Instruction tells the truth what all the "experts" were teaching and it explains why USA tennis sucks as a whole.

Aptennis91, I was in such a hurry I forgot to put that great link to the Federer video where his head moves to the right while he pulls his hand to the right. Watch the letters above and stop it when he touches the ball and then go frame by frame watching his head versus where his hand goes. I got a super forehand once I saw what was going on.

http://www.tennisteacher.com/exp.htm video of Federer

Hope you enjoyed www.moderntenniscoaches.com and the MTM forum is getting a lot of Rave Reviews, especially on the Spartak Tennis Academy info which shocks lots of coaches because it proves a lot of things said in the USA as excuses are not likely true.
 
You are correct that careful study of the pros techniques is needed, but the problem is most grassroots pros don't have a clue as to what the pros are doing. Even the announcers usually don't have a clue. I just got back from lessons all day and am looking at a tape of today's ladies action and they just showed Dementieva holding both hands on the racket in front of her, "stalking' or tracking the ball and not taking her racket back until the ball bounces, I just checked it in slo mo and she "waits" beautifully. Yet Mary Carillo will talk about how early the pros get their racket back, when the exact opposite is true...

I keep seeing this mantra repeated by Wegner and disciples. From what I've observed, it simply ain't true. I am a firm believer in early preparation on groundstrokes, particularly for novice and intermediate students & players. For more advanced players or for those with impeccable timing & hand-eye, the prep can be delayed a bit longer -- but still early for the most part.

Check out the following slo-mo clips of Federer, Murray and Tsonga. I've seen the same sort of thing with Nadal and other pros. In the first Federer forehand, notice that he has already started his unit turn as the ball crosses the net. His unit turn is pretty much complete by the time the ball bounces -- this is early preparation. He does not wait for the ball to bounce to bring the racket back. The bounce is not particularly deep in this first example, yet his prep is still early.

For balls deeper than this midcourt ball, waiting for the ball to bounce would certainly be too late, possibly even suicidal. Upon inspection of subsquent examples, we will often see that the racquet already starts to drop as the ball bounces.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5rWS3sun74

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNFxnShJ9o

www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7YuzLLqG0Q
.
 
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I keep seeing this mantra repeated by Wegner and disciples. From what I've observed, it simply ain't true. I am a firm believer in early preparation on groundstrokes, particularly for novice and intermediate students & players. For more advanced players or for those with impeccable timing & hand-eye, the prep can be delayed a bit longer -- but still early for the most part.

Check out the following slo-mo clips of Federer, Murray and Tsonga. I've seen the same sort of thing with Nadal and other pros. In the first Federer forehand, notice that he has already started his unit turn as the ball crosses the net. His unit turn is pretty much complete by the time the ball bounces -- this is early preparation. He does not wait for the ball to bounce to bring the racket back. The bounce is not particularly deep in this first example, yet his prep is still early.

For balls deeper than this midcourt ball, waiting for the ball to bounce would certainly be too late, possibly even suicidal. Upon inspection of subsquent examples, we will often see that the racquet already starts to drop as the ball bounces.

This points out a problem in tennis instruction, how concepts are best taught to student and how once you reach a certain level, you can take risks in order to break patterns and such. Oscar Wegner's MTM is very much misunderstood, one of the reason why he has agreed to finish off six new DVDs putting it all out there in it's complete and glorious form.

Oscar claims, and I don't think he will mind me stating this, that early preparation and a closed stance forehand to beginners and intermediates are huge barrier to tennis development and yet most coaches in the USA claim the opposite. The hardest concept USA coaches appear to not get about MTM is "stalking or tracking" the ball. Since I quit teaching early preparation and "the unit turn" which I rarely ever mention in my teaching, I have very little problem getting my students to hit efficiently with open stance and excellent timing and thus looking like pros in form and efficiency if not speed. I even get 3.5 players to look like pros and to feel what it means to hit across the ball. I only get 1000 characters on here so I have to make a lot of points in a short space. Heres a couple.

Kelly Jones was #1 doubles player world ranked (with Rick Leach) and has coached players such as Mardy Fish to #17 in the world, Xavier Maliisse, and Alex O'Brien to I think it was #35 in the world. Kelly had to watch lesser athletes like Todd Martin reach top ten rankings because Martin, no speedster on the court, was ready to quit pro tennis after two years because foreigners beat him like a drum. He then hired Jose Higueras (one of my students graduated from Higueras Academy so I can confirm he teaches much of Oscar's system) and Martin, slow with the best serve and volley game outside of Sampras in the USA, switched to across the body swing and zoomed to #4 in the world. I have a recording of a speech Martin made telling his story of learning to play "the foreign way."

Anyway, Kelly was a National USTA coach and has coached players that any coach would drool to have just one of them. He quit the USTA, USPTA, and PTR a few years ago because he was frustrated with the contradictory data. He has a tennis academy LMS Institute which from my discussions with him is very MTM and he has spent time working with Oscar Wegner behind the scenes but the public does not know of Oscar's work with coaches since many don't credit him. Kelly wouldn't mine my reproducing this because they are on his site but I only have space for a few. The PTR just hired Kelly to there online training, by the way. These agree exactly with Oscar's teachings. But then, what does Kelly know? He's taken many juniors into the pro ranks and even the top fifty world rankings. He must be wrong, too.

“TOP 10 OVERUSED & OVERRATED TEACHING METHODS” by Kelly Jones

Kelly Jones: “My 12-year Professional Playing Career can be easily summarized by my determination to become a better tennis player. This constant drive to improve took precedent over titles, rankings, and money. I was consumed by the idea that there had to be a better and easier way to play tennis. I knew that my game was limited, and that I could not execute shots like other players. I could not understand why a player with my athletic ability was not able to perform what seemed to be basic fundamental tasks. Any type of adjustment, such as different tennis court surfaces and challenging weather condition, were especially difficult. Because no one could accurately understand how I felt and what it was like, I was always left feeling insecure and challenged mentally. I was told many times that my problems were all in my head. If you hear it enough, you tend to believe it.”

“I have now spent the last 11 years coaching and teaching junior and professional players. The same overused and overrated methods that challenged me throughout my career are still being taught today. It has become a passion of mine to help players navigate through all this misinformation so that they have a much better understanding of the game. By removing the myths, rules and structure from these popular teaching methods, players will have the ability to develop a much more natural way of playing tennis.”

RULE #1) GET PREPARED EARLY;

What does this really mean? Prepare your racket first, prepare your body first, or both? This concept is very confusing. It seems logical when a coach says you are late swinging to the ball, you must prepare earlier. In truth, more times than not, it is actually the early preparation that results in the awkward, rushed feeling that many players associate with being late. Preparing early can disrupt a kind of natural rhythm and flow. Instead it is more important to prepare according to the situation or to the speed, spin, height or angle of the ball.
Problems: Stroke may feel awkward and too long, your movement to the ball feels clumsy, off balance running wide for balls, struggle with short balls.

RULE #2) MOVE FORWARD INTO EVERY SHOT AND DON’T MOVE BACK:

It is amazing to me that this teaching method is still being taught. I would not have made a dime playing professional tennis if I didn’t rid myself of this #1 overused teaching method. All of the great players continually move in all directions, forward, backward, sideways, etc. It is impossible and unnatural to go forward all of the time. Using foreword momentum as a rule will cause all kinds of problems with your swing. You cannot get away with playing all offense like you could years ago. Changing from defense to offense requires great flexibility and few limitations. This method is responsible for players at all levels never reaching their full potential.
Problems: many off center hits (shanks), difficulty with deep, defensive balls, inconsistent day to day, cramped-hitting space, lack of good ball control.

RULE #3) GET THERE AND GET SET

This rule implies that you get to that perfect position as quickly as possible in order to set your feet and have your racquet prepared. The flaw with this thinking is that very rarely in tennis are the conditions perfect and allow us to be in the perfect position. It does not allow for flexibility and the ability to adjust to the wind or bad bounces or playing on the clay. Thus, it will be really hard to find any kind of rhythm with this thinking unless the conditions are always perfect . Movement and preparation needs to be more instinctive. Sometimes it will be fast and sometimes slow depending on the situation. Too much structure when it pertains to preparation takes away from instinctive decision-making. It is much better to react naturally instead of being consumed with how you are going to react.
Problems: feel stuck and cramped when you get to the ball, difficulty swinging freely,
everything feels rushed.

Rule #4) DON’T WAIT FOR THE BALL

Here in America we are taught to never let your opponent back into the court and always take time away from them. Learning to wait for the ball changed my career. Much of this philosophy is a result of playing on faster surfaces. The problem with this method is that players get in a panic mode. They will tend to rush easy put-a-way balls and often miss because of rushing. All the great players today know how to do what is called “hold” the ball. What does holding the ball mean? Well, they have essentially learned to wait for the ball. By waiting or holding the ball the players take the time to hit the right shot or take time to let their opponent make a move and then play the appropriate shot. The concept of “holding the ball” often can leave many of your opponents literally incapable of making a move for your shot. Sometimes you’ll take away your opponents’ time and other times you will deliberately hold the ball until your opponents made a move before you hit the shot.
Problems: super fast pace/panic mode, many miss-hits, don’t feel in control, bad days are really bad

Kelly must be wrong. These contradict many of the things taught on this site. Pros when they practice and depending on where they are in a match can do exceptional things because they are pros. How they got there is another matter entirely. I don't follow Oscar, I follow his results. It's interesting the USA resistance to him corresponds with our horrible tennis results. The Russians spend 300 to 400,000 dollars a year on junior development and we spend nearly 500 times that and yet their top juniors up until their teens play half the tennis our top juniors do. Another myth is that the Russians play more because they have nothing to do. I prove it on my moderncoaches.com in the NY Times Article.
 
I apologize and misprinted my website. My website is www.moderntenniscoaches.com. I accidentally put moderncoaches.com. The link to the NY Times Article is
http://www.moderntenniscoaches.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18

Tatiana Matokhnyuk, top international Russian coach to World #3 Nadia Petrova and Marcus Baghdatis said about an MTM Coaching Clinic held by MTI: "You won't find beginners improve this quickly with any other method. Modern Tennis is the only way to teach at all levels, it's how we do it Russia...surely everyone teaches this way."

Tatiana must have been on drugs claiming that Russia teaches Oscar's system, but then two Russian Academies I corresponded with confirmed the same thing. Bud Collins discovered this in 1991 when Russian Coaches at the Kremlin Cup were asking him for more copies of Oscar's book. But then since it was the Kremlin Cup, with Russia's best players, they must have been coaches for beginners or not known what they were doing.

I provide proof that a small academy in Russia with one indoor court has produced more top twenty players than the USA the last six years and why technique is everything if you want to play your best tennis. I even provide a picture showing they teach open stance to their tiny tots ages 4 to 6 and they allow them western grips. The students finish with their hips open to net and with the racket touching their spine at the finish. Coaches yell words like "feel" and "finish more thoroughly" rather than "hit through the ball" another destructive command. Feel free to browse around and send me your comments.

If we continue to teach tennis like we have been, we'll continue to get the same results and we know Richard Williams used MTM to help develop his daughters. Why do you think Higueras was hired by the USTA for high performance? We are even sending out top juniors to Spain, the first country to institute Oscar's tenets. Check out the MTM library on my site and read about the recent emphasis on clay court play. It was predicted in a book twenty years ago as necessary to USA junior development. Read McEnroe and Higueras' quotes and compare them to the quotes from the book twenty years ago. Someone better start listening to they guy who has been right all along. Or is www.tennisone.com wrong when they claimed regarding Oscar Wegner's claims of delayed preparation, tracking the ball, and open stance, "History Proved Him Right."

Lets think about this. Tennisone.com is the largest tennis teaching site on the web with more videos than any other site. They must be on drugs also to claim Oscar is right in his tenets. I'm not sure what you really know about MTM but I assure you if you examinie the evidence, you might realize it has its followers for a reason. Nothing else works as well, though you can learn to hit a tennis ball a huindred different ways.

The proof of a theory is that when others test it, they get the same results. It's called the scientific method. The USA get horrible results versus what we spend on tennis development because we don't have a reproducible system that works for all coaches. Russian coaches all teach the same technique. Browse some of the coaches bios on www.tennisteacher.com in the coaching section and some of those are pretty impressive. Allison Scott was a former top 100 player, several of them are former Davis Cup coaches and great players in their own right.

The so called failure of USA tennis is found in contradictory data and the USTA current claim there is no one optimal technique. That claim can be tested by the Scientific Method. What teaching system gets maximum people playing tennis for a lifetime and thus allowing the largest talent pool possible for us to draw from and develop champions. Is Serbia producing genetic mutants? Spartak, with one rundown indoor court and six months of freezing weather, must have all the genetic freaks, right?

I hope you have an open mind to consider evidence that many of the claims such as the Serbs, Russians, French, Croats, and now Chinese are more driven than our best juniors. We USA coaches are asking the wrong questions and buying into marketing ploys by coaches and alphabet soups that are determined to prove they are right.

I hope I have made you think. My contact info is at www.moderntenniscoaches.com.
 
I tried to do this and the grip kept moving in my hand. I need a new overgrip, but it was making my shot really unstable and fly up.. How should I keep the grip loose, but keep it stable enough?

Also, this is not something you try. It happens because of a combination of things, a loose grip, hitting up on the ball, closing the racket face, trying to hit the ball nearer the lower part of the strings (closer to the trailing edge). First find the ball and hit up and across with as loose a grip as possible. Learn from your racket. Your racket will teach you if you "listen" to it. A weird concept, but it seem to work well with students just like a lot of other unorthodox concepts taught my Oscar Wegner.
 
I do agree with you teachestennis, but be careful here. There is not a lot of love for Oscar Wegner on the discussion board.
 
I play on hard courts almost exclusively, and I use a lot of topspin. I make sure to hit it deep and aim for the corners though...

And yeah, mix it up a little. I like to slice a lot, and I throw in a couple drop shots for good measure every now and then.

I'm learning to be a better net player too, so I'm starting to serve-and-volley in addition to baselining.

Drives my opponents crazy. :twisted:
 
I do agree with you teachestennis, but be careful here. There is not a lot of love for Oscar Wegner on the discussion board.

Thanks Tim, but if you have truth, it withstands any attack. Everyone on the pro tour today swings with the windshield wiper which Oscar has been advocating since 1968. The USTA makes excuses why East Europeans dominate tennis when the Russians don't even allow their players to play tournaments for their first three years while they build the correct muscle memory using the windshield wiper open stance forehand so that it's ingrained. I had a Russian interview translated (someone put part of it on TennisW) where the Russian TEnnis FEd Prez is making fun of the USA) and bragging about how they have so many top juniors they have to send them abroad because they don't have the resources for them.

If a coach has great theories, then they are reproducible by others. If the USA great coaches know how to teach so well, then why can't they get the results that countries with the population of our cities can? Cindysphinx on this site is 3.5 after five years. If a dedicated adult player takes lessons from me weekly and is 3.5 after a year, I quit teaching tennis.

Tim, I'm curious to see what you thought of www.moderntenniscoaches.com and did you go to the MTM Library in the forum. It's just a series of posted articles for people to read telling the facts that no one has ever pointed out. You should email me at eztennisswing@yahoo.com and I will send you some interesting stuff since you are open minded to playing tennis by feel and using natural simplistic mechanics to figure out how to copy the pros.

My role is to point people towards the truth. You can lead a horse to water as they say............. But things are changing. The USTA no longer advocates a closed stance forehand for all players, which is a huge improvement because with a closed stance forehand you can never get past a certain level in the modern game, or pros would be using it as their primary forehand. Even Bungalow Bill is not an advoate of "angular momentum" or hitting across the ball, and he's not exactly the biggest fan of MTM, but I respect him a lot for his great knowledge and I learn from him though I don't know I should admit that publicly, lol. Jose Higueras is bringing much of these tenets to the USTA. So I'm cautiously optimistic. The problem is the grassroots coaches. The closed stance forehand for beginners has to go before tennis will truly explode at the grassroots like it did in other countries.
 
Hello teachestennis, I've read Oscar's famous book - tennis in 2 hrs - and liked it very much, even though I haven't really tried to follow it rigorously. I've also watched the "Tennis Television With Brad Holbrook" series of tapes. Do the DVD's on advanced technique have newer material aimed at intermediate and advanced players, different from his book and tapes? I'm wondering if I should buy the DVD's and give his method a serious shot.

BTW, I did read your historical perspective on tennis coaching, and it is fascinating - thanks!
 
Thanks teachestennis, i will check moderntenniscoaches.com. I know what you are saying is true because i bought Oscar Wegner videos about 6 years ago when i decided to try to really learn how to play this great game.

Needless to say his instructional videos really helped my game.There was a big difference in what he taught+ what i was being taught in the lessons i was taking.I learned to hit topspin pretty quickly from Oscars videos+ my game improved very quickly.

I think because Oscar comes on pretty strong about the older style of tennis instruction being incorrect. That causes a lot of anger among a lot of people that still believe that their oldschool methods are correct.

Like i mentioned to you before i took a lot of grief on this site for talking Oscar up.It still amazes me how a great discussion board like talk tennis does not recognize how good Oscar Wegners instruction is.
 
This will happen naturally after you learn to find the ball slowly and hit up and across with maximum acceleration after you bend the arm.
You approach the ball with your palm facing down while the butt of the racket will be pointing at the ball (you see Federer doing this in pics perfectly). It looks like you are going to hit the ball with the butt of the racket, your palm is face down to the ground, and then you
lift up and across quickly. You won't be able to see it when it happens but you can feel it.

Gotta run, I forgot you needed an answer and I can't get back on all day. don't force it, it will happen once you find the ball slowly, then rip across the ball, never through the target line. I promise.

Can you be so kind as to show us this on video. Can't picture this.
 
Thanks teachestennis, i will check moderntenniscoaches.com. I know what you are saying is true because i bought Oscar Wegner videos about 6 years ago when i decided to try to really learn how to play this great game.

Needless to say his instructional videos really helped my game.There was a big difference in what he taught+ what i was being taught in the lessons i was taking.I learned to hit topspin pretty quickly from Oscars videos+ my game improved very quickly.

I think because Oscar comes on pretty strong about the older style of tennis instruction being incorrect. That causes a lot of anger among a lot of people that still believe that their oldschool methods are correct.

Like i mentioned to you before i took a lot of grief on this site for talking Oscar up.It still amazes me how a great discussion board like talk tennis does not recognize how good Oscar Wegners instruction is.

Revolutions are never without a lot of spilled blood. Oscar is not falsely modest though those who meet him or speak with him on the phone are often surprised he is so nice and gentle speaking and nothing like you would expect. His next DVD will feature two eleven year olds, one barely 11 who looks like a reincarnation of Gabriela Sabatini complete with the one handed backhand. His legacy is his DVDs developing players like these and allowing them to hit their own styles, the two are doubles partners and could not be more different.

Oscar views his role as to clean up the game of tennis and keep it simple by ridding of misconceptionss. He doesn't care that he's being copied by guys like Brett Hobden, who actually told me face to face he figured out all this in the 1980s while a coach behind him snickered that I didn't call him on hit. Poor Brett didn't know who I was doing a Ken Burns documentary and taking notes of every coach I talked with. Brett even trademarked Tennis in One Hour and Think and Play like the Pros in 2004, both obvious take offs of Oscar's slogans.

When I did my research which included about 250 tennis books, 25 years of Tennis, Advantage, and Pro magazines, (the latter two are only available to coaches), 150 videos and reading or browsing every article on tennisone and tennisplayer as well as subscribing to dozens of newsletters all over the internet the last ten years, the last five after I switched to MTM, I saw a lot of prejudice against anyone,not just Oscar, who opposed the "fad" point of view at the time. Berwash and Tom Stow were two coaches that appeared to have a lot right, thought Berwash had some very important things wrong. Stow might be the greatest tactical coach I have discovered in his influence on Budge and how the 1960's USA greats played. I even had to defend Bollettieri in my History, not an easy thing to do given he is reviled by many of his peers who rejoice when he gets caught sticking his foot in his mouth at times with his endless self promotion and are probably happy that his "gift" and "legacy" to tennis quickly faded away.

Oscar was not the first to attack tennis teaching for it's many myths, but he was the first to provide a solution. Read this: Page 136: "Unfortunately, tennis is still something of a black art. The game abounds with charlatans and people peddling their own pet theories. In many cases, advice from two tennis pros will be directly contradictory. It is a nasty position to find yourself after approaching both in a state of ignorance. If you knew enough to decide which was right, you probably wouldn't be taking lessons in the first place. Although it might not be much consolation, it should be known that the problem is not resticted to beginners. Many of the top players in the world are equally confused by a myriad of conflicting advice when they they suddenly develop trouble with their serve swing or backhand. I wish there was an easy answer, but there isn't."

I first started studying tennis theory carefully in 1980 because of the above quote written in a 1979 book from Dr. Allen Fox, great Pepperdine college tennis coach who once defeated all four reigning Grand Slam champions in one tournament in a row...WOW! That will likely be never done again.

So I am on here to just point out to a few people that tennis is simple, that the fundamentals are unorthodox in that I teach three of them: find the ball, feel it (by moving across it on all shots...even the volley is a one inch shot), and finish the shot completely. Find, feel, and finish. All of my players go away with a smile on their face knowing they are moving to hitting like the pros, sooner rather than later versus conventional means.

Oscar's real influence is behind the scenes. Coaches still come learn from him and next week the USPTA is flying him into Minnesota for a convention. At 70, he is offered top juniors or many such as Morgan Mays are brought to him by their coaches to see if they missed anything. A photographer assigned to take pictures of pro tennis decides to pick up a racket at 39 and studied intently on how best to play. Becomes a small college coach. He runs into the Spanish tennis announcer, Oscar Wegner and sees he's teaching differently. He takes lessons from Oscar and brings him some soccer players who are new to tennis for one week who take lessons from Oscar who then join the tennis team and win matches the next week. Needless to say, that made Ron Waite a believe and he starts a column to make tennis simple called Turbo Tennis. In 2008, Ron Waite, author of the very popular Turbo Tennis newsletters, noted “Oscar is a most unconventional tennis teacher. Some doubt his methods and insights, but I would beg to differ. In many ways, I believe Oscar was the "forerunner" with respect to the modern game. His "unorthodox" doctrine has made him an outcast of sorts. But, his devotees will certainly support that he knows what he is doing. I am one. His unorthodox methods and techniques have in major measure become a new orthodoxy! Check this out for yourself.”

Geniuses are great misunderstood while alive. Mozart wasn't even popular until after he died. Hopefully, tennis in the USA will flourish. My job is to get the truth to people. There is one method proven by evidence and history that stands above all others. Show me something that works better and I'll dedicate my entire website to it. I don't follow Oscar, I follow his results. The USTA, USPTA, and PTR results have been less than stellar in their results given we once had 69 players in top 100 rankings and have fallen to as low as a dozen. 20 million people left the game who took lessons. I doubt one person who I taught MTM to in the last five years has left the game or even thinks tennis is too difficult to play on a nice day. That is my personal story. When you have the secret to doing something well, it's only right to share it. That is all I seek to do in an effort to grow this amazing game that isn't even really about tennis as much as it's a reflection of our personal journey of life. Tennis is a great vehicle to ride in in the journey to our next destination.
 
Can you be so kind as to show us this on video. Can't picture this.

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These are just many pics. Visual learning doesn't work very well if you have misconceptions. I teach beginners to close the racket per MTM which allows this to happen from the early stages. Any technique you do that does not align with the correct muscle memory steps that will allow you to emulate the pros best strokes will have to be undone and unlearned, and this often ruins a player. That is why all beginners must be taught simple step by step progressions to copy the pros techniques. I taught next to one pro yesterday amazed and embarrased (he had to have been, my assumption) how my six year year old girl could outhit his 12 year old who couldn't rally five balls while I was up over twenty almost every ball with an average little gir). I introduced myself going to pick up balls and asked him why did he not teach her the way he played (college scholarship player now PTR certified). He replied that was the way he was supposed to teach. I asked him how did he not know know the kid could play open stance like a pro unless he asked the kid to copy the pros. Poor guy! Never even occurred to him that his player might be able to play that well. What a judgement to make for a kid he's been teaching four lessons and I could tell the kid was more talented than mine. I cry when I see another kid ruined by false tennis data that inhibits their athletic potential. I got a 14 year old in his first tennis lesson who was an awkward shy kid to rally 68 balls within fifteen minutes. Only had picked up a racket twice and missed eight of the first ten balls I threw him as creampuffs to see what he knew before I had him do the famous handball drill and then told him to touch the ball like they were piano keys and just scratch his back with the racket. Both sides, 68 balls from a kid who couldn't even hit a ball when we started. First ball, no kidding. Tom Anderson is his father and couldn't believe it.
 
Thats a pretty dumb statement. Topspin is a major part of the hardcourt game, keeps harder shots in and gives more margin for error. And the topspin shots iv seen hit in my hs matches were not slow, they jumped off the court.
 
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[QUOTE]These are just many pics.  Visual learning doesn't work very well if you have misconceptions[/QUOTE]
. I teach beginners to close the racket per MTM which allows this to happen from the early stages. Any technique you do that does not align with the correct muscle memory steps that will allow you to emulate the pros best strokes will have to be undone and unlearned, and this often ruins a player. That is why all beginners must be taught simple step by step progressions to copy the pros techniques. I taught next to one pro yesterday amazed and embarrased (he had to have been, my assumption) how my six year year old girl could outhit his 12 year old who couldn't rally five balls while I was up over twenty almost every ball with an average little gir). I introduced myself going to pick up balls and asked him why did he not teach her the way he played (college scholarship player now PTR certified). He replied that was the way he was supposed to teach. I asked him how did he not know know the kid could play open stance like a pro unless he asked the kid to copy the pros. Poor guy! Never even occurred to him that his player might be able to play that well. What a judgement to make for a kid he's been teaching four lessons and I could tell the kid was more talented than mine. I cry when I see another kid ruined by false tennis data that inhibits their athletic potential. I got a 14 year old in his first tennis lesson who was an awkward shy kid to rally 68 balls within fifteen minutes. Only had picked up a racket twice and missed eight of the first ten balls I threw him as creampuffs to see what he knew before I had him do the famous handball drill and then told him to touch the ball like they were piano keys and just scratch his back with the racket. Both sides, 68 balls from a kid who couldn't even hit a ball when we started. First ball, no kidding. Tom Anderson is his father and couldn't believe it.

Couldn't agree more. The palm of the hand is not turned down though, (misconception), nor will it as the forward swing progresses. In the above photos, the upper arm has rotated externally, and the forearm has supinated, which turns the palm up, not down. (like holding a cup of soup) This opens up the racquet face in the transition stage (from downswing to foreward swing) and sets the racquet face angle as per their grip. Telling a student to then turn their palm down in the forward swing, after this angle has been set, is an absoulute disaster.

This is what wegner is describing in the video. "Closed to open." (nothing new there) You need to look at the video and distinguish between palm positons in the backswing (which are almost always closed to some degree) and the foreward swing. (which are almost always turned up slightly) If you and wegner are promoting a universal system, you two really should be on the same page.
 
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... I had a Russian interview translated (someone put part of it on TennisW) where the Russian TEnnis FEd Prez is making fun of the USA) and bragging about how they have so many top juniors they have to send them abroad because they don't have the resources for them...

It is interesting/ironic tho' that so many Russian & other European players come to the US to further hone their tennis skills. If US tennis development is so inferior, why would these Russian/Euro players waste their time & money to train here?

Speaking of the wealth of top Russian players, why is it that we see so many female players but very few male players from Russia? Currently, the only top 30 male players from the Russian Federation are Davydenko (8 ) and Adreev (27 ). There are currently 4 US males in the top 30 -- not really impressive, but still significant. Could it be that the top male athletes from both Russia & the US are going into sports other than tennis?

Back to my "early preparation" post (#52) -- I got (yet another) long-winded reply to that post. However, it appears that you skirted around the primary point that I made in that post.
 
Couldn't agree more. The palm of the hand is not turned down though, (misconception), nor will it as the forward swing progresses. In the above photos, the upper arm has rotated externally, and the forearm has supinated, which turns the palm up, not down. (like holding a cup of soup) This opens up the racquet face in the transition stage (from downswing to foreward swing) and sets the racquet face angle as per their grip. Telling a student to then turn their palm down in the forward swing, after this angle has been set, is an absoulute disaster.

This is what wegner is describing in the video. "Closed to open." (nothing new there) You need to look at the video and distinguish between palm positons in the backswing (which are almost always closed to some degree) and the foreward swing. (which are almost always turned up slightly) If you and wegner are promoting a universal system, you two really should be on the same page.

It's how you teach it and relate it to the student. And yes, there is nothing new in that clip in terms of closed to open if you are on this site, but many people teaching tennis are not, even I don't normally do anything but read the threads to see if anyone has anything I can steal or learn from, I'm only participating because most of my students went back to school and I'm tired of doing tennis research in all these old books. No well known coach publicy was teaching that closed to open concept in the 1970s when Oscar was teaching it and there are still many at the grassroots teaching the old ways. I watch high school teachers and parks tennis coaches who still don't have a clue as to these little nuances. I see coaches still teaching with the racquet strings perpendicular to the ground in the ******* where I live, though mainly to beginners or tiny tots. In MTM we use the hand to represent the strings, so when I demo with my hand, my palm is down because it represents the strings, though the actual degree is determined by grip and where you find the ball. In MTM, the strings are represented by the palm; thus my phrasing it that way because technically, to the student, it works and gets good results. We use simple visual pictures to get our students to do what you describe as a very complex thing...Upper arm rotation externally with supination of forehand. If I told that to my students, there eyes glaze over even if they nod their head thinking I must be so smart to use such technicality.

In the learning gradient, we start beginners with no mention of backswing in MTM, and we thus have their arm closer to the body with minimal backswing and thus their palm is down, so I should have clarified that. Obviously, many of my better players with big western grips who close their strings have their palms rotate upward as you mention, but it's how the student is relayed the concept that makes a difference in what visual you use. I only use wax on wax off with my students because it works for them, whereas other coaches might not like it or even have success using that visual because they don't teach with the same paradigm I do. We teach a universal minimalist sytem, and allow each student to create their own style and their own idiosyncratic swing. I would never teach a Berasutegui grip FH, but I've had one student of mine have good success with it, so who am I to argue.
 
It is interesting/ironic tho' that so many Russian & other European players come to the US to further hone their tennis skills. If US tennis development is so inferior, why would these Russian/Euro players waste their time & money to train here?

Speaking of the wealth of top Russian players, why is it that we see so many female players but very few male players from Russia? Currently, the only top 30 male players from the Russian Federation are Davydenko (8 ) and Adreev (27 ). There are currently 4 US males in the top 30 -- not really impressive, but still significant. Could it be that the top male athletes from both Russia & the US are going into sports other than tennis?

Back to my "early preparation" post (#52) -- I got (yet another) long-winded reply to that post. However, it appears that you skirted around the primary point that I made in that post.

Great questions and I love the challenge and debate. Why would not the best want the best facilities. At the higher levels of USA instruction, you will find a lot of foreign coaches and influence, if you have ever been to Bollettieri's, you know what I mean. Let's see, Patrick McEnroe hired who to head the entire High Performance Program for the USA? Jose Higueras of Spain! Jose even has webcams on every court at Carson so he can see what's going on from his Indian Wells Academy. Where are we sending out top dozen USA juniors to train from now on? Spain!

If someone gave you a million dollars to build a world class tennis faciily in 1977 and invite all the best junior players in the world to come there and beat up on each other, and you then hired the best trainers, teachers, etc that you could find, I'm sure you could declare yourself the best coach in the world when one and then several of those kids got to number one. Did you make them champions or were they like Monica Seles, already beating everyone when they came to your academy and just needed a place to keep on developing their already high performance game? Hmmmmmmm! We hear about the wins but we never hear about the losses.

Do you really expect top Russians to train at the Spartak Academy with one indoor court though a dozen top twenty players came from there? Many don't come here. Andy Murray escaped to Spain (his words given the LTA can't produce any results and Murry blames them for ruining his brother).

Why does Oscar live in the USA when he is near legend overseas? It's wealthy, and he also thinks we had the farthest to come in coaching, and he was right, and we have come a long way, many of his tenets are now standard, as Ron Waite and tennisone.com noted. But where is the permanent grassroots growth yet? Anyone can coach a dedicated disciplined athlete but how many can take average people and develop great players or even players who just want to play tennis for a lifetime?

I will recommend everyone read Daniel Coyle's The Talent Code: Talent is Made, Not Born. Here's How a best selling book that just came out May 2009. Its deals with myths of coaching and what makes a great athlete. Michael Jordan didn't even start for his high school basketball team until his junior year. Same with Barkley. John Isner didn't even start playing tennis seriously until high school which is why he went to college to play more tournaments. The book is a must read for coaches and for parents with any children who they want to excel at something. It shows what John Wooden and the greatest bank robber in history have in common (that is not a misprint). It shows that great athletes are as likely to come from a piano teacher as they are from parents who both were Olympic athletes. It also explains something called ignition.

Ignition is why South Korean women dominate the LPGA and why Russian women dominate the WTA and not the men. Spartak, the rundown tennis club that churns out one great player after another, has 20 coaches, nineteen of them women. This might account for this phenomenon partially, but the culture likely accounts for men not going into tennis more.

I didn't think I skirted the issue, I wanted to make you aware that great coaches such as Kelly Jones have similiar viewpoints and let their words speak for me. Pros are at the end of a learning gradient with highly developed skills of timing and efficiency that allow them to do things that most aren't quite ready to do, and yet many of them do wait until the ball bounces before they swing, it's partially determined as to exactly when by court speed and conditions, but teaching early preparation or going through the target line can destroy a thousand more students than it will help.

Have to hit the courts, but I'll be back. TEnnis instruction has to be simplified if we are to create a large talent pool to draw from. Nothing destroys natural athletes like mechanical based teaching that doesn't allow them to use their instincts and feel to play their best. If those techniques are based on the right tenets, a great athlete will adopt it quickly and experience success. Otherwise, they leave the sport frustrated at the wrong application of data.
 
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